05/05/20 05/05/20 democracy now! test [captioning made possible amy goodman: from new york, the epicenter of the pandemic, this is s democracacy now! nonoam chomsky: we have a tototy dysfunctional gogovernment which is causing enormous problems. it is not that nothingng was knknown. the pandemic wasas anticipated. his reaction was to o cut back preparatitions. amy odmaman: how d did the united states, the richest country in the world,

become the world epicenter for the coronavirus pandemic? today, we spend the hour with noam chomsky, discussing this moment in history and its political implications. noam chomsky: the horror story that has developed is indescrcribable. you struggle tfind wowords for itit. some arere cheering for it.. donald t trump and his friened bolsonararo brazil, a couple of other sociopaths. how do you counter a reacactionary internatioion? by developing prprogressive inteternational. amy goodman: noam chomsky for the hour. all thatat more and comingng . ththis is democracy now!, democracacynow.org, ththe quarantine reporort.. i'm amy ododman. we are broadcasting from new york, the epicicenter of the pandemimic. the third of the world repeportd infections are in the u.s.,

and a quarter of the global deaths, evenen though ththe u.s. makesm less than 5% of the world population. this comes as the u.s. labor department says roughly 40 million amecacans hahave filed for unemployment bebenefits since m mid-march, and the scale of u.s. job losses is set to rival the great depression. for more on the political implications of this unprecedented moment, we are spending the hour with noam chomsky, professor emeritus at the massachusetts institute of technology wherere he tauaut or more than half f a century. his recent books include global discontent, conversations on the rising threat to democracy, who rules the world, and requiem for the american dream,

the 10 principles for the concentration of american wealth and power. noam chomsky joined us for a conversation from his home in april in tucson, arizona where he is sheltered in place with his wife. we spoke o on the day that senator bernie sanders announced he w was suspendndig his presidenential campaign, making former vice president joe biden the presumptive nominee to face donald trumpmp inin the novemember election. i began by asking what is happening right now in thehe context of the 2020 electis, what he sees happening in november. noam chomsky: if trump is reelected, it's a indescribable disaster. it meaeans that the popolicies of thehe past four years, which have beenn exemely destruructive to the a american population,, to t the wororld, will b be continued and probably accelerated.

what this is going to mean for hethth is bad d enough. i justst mentioned the lancncet figureses. it will get woworse. what this means for the environmnment or the threat of nuclear war,, which no one is talking about but is extremely serious, is indescribable. suppose biden is elected. i would anticipate it would be essentially a continuation of obama - nothing very great, but at least not totally destructive, and opportunities for an organized public to change what is being done, to impose pressures. it's common to say now that the sanders campaign failed. i think that's a mistake.

i think it was an extraordinary success, completely shifted the arena of debate and discussion. issues that were unthinkable a couple years ago are now right in the middle of attention. the worst crime he committed, in the eyes of the establishment, is not the policy he's proposing; it's the fact that he was able to inspire popular movements, which had already been developing - occupy, black lives matter, many others - and turn them into an activist movement, which doesn't just show up every couple years to push a leader and then go home, but applies constant pressure, constant activism and so on. that could affect a biden administration. it could also -- even if iss just a a holding a action,

it means thehere's t time to dl with the major crises. take medicare for alall or, the otother majojor plank in sandersrs's program, free colollege education. across the whole mainstream spectrum, alall the way to what's cacald the e left in the mainststrea, this i is condemnedd as too radical for a americans. just think what that means. that's an attack on american culture and society, which you would expect from some hostile enemy. what it's saying is it's totoo radical toto say that we should rise to the level of comparable countries. they all have some form of national healthcare. most of them have free higher education - the best-performing countries nationally, like finland,

free; ; germany, freree; right to our south, mexico, a poor couountry, , high-qualy hihigher eduducation, , fre. so, to say we e should rise to the levelel of the rest of t the world is considered too radical for americans. it's an astotonishing comment. as i say, it's a critiquee of ameririca ththat you'd expxpect frfrm some s super hostile enemy. thatat's the left of the spectr. tells you that we have really deep problems. it's n not just trump. he's made it much worse, but the proboblems go much deep, just like, say, the ventilator catastrophe, which i dedescribed, just t bad on good capipitalist logic with the extra hammer blow

of making the government ineffectual to deal with things. this is much deeper than trump. and we have toto face those fac. some do. i'm sure you reported - i don't remember - you probably reported the setting of the doomsday clock in january. ok? amy goodman: yes. noamam chomsky: notice what happened. all through trump's term, the minute hand of the doomsday clock, the best general assessment we have of thetatate of the w wld,, moved closer to midnigight - termination - reached the highghest point eve. this january, it exceeded it. the analalysts gave upup minut, momoved to secononds, a hundred seconds toto midnigh, thanks to donald trump. and the republican party, which is just monstrouous, no longer ququalifies as a a polititical party.. it simply sheepishly echoes everything the master says.

zero intntegrity. it's just t amazing to w watc. he's sururrounded hihimself by a colction n of sycopophants who just repeat worshipfully everything he says. realal major attacack on democr, alongside the attack on the survivaval of h humity, to q quote jpmorgagan chase ag-- the nuclear war, raising the threat of nuclear war, dismantling the arms control system, which has, to some extent, protected us from total disaster. it's astonishing to watch. the same mememo that i i quotd abouout how the policies we're following are risking the survival of humanity ended by arguing that the banks should cut back its fossil fuel support,

in part because of the reputational consequences. their reputation is being harmed. what does that mean? that means that activists are putting pressure on them, anand they have to maintain some kind of reputation. now, that's a good lesson. and it works. we've seen some very striking examples. take, say, the green new deal. a cocouple of years ago, that was an object of ridicule, if it was mentioned at all. some form of green new deal is essential for the survival of humanity. now it's part of the general agenda. why? activist engagement. especially sunrise movement, a group of young people, acted significantly, up to the point of sitting in

in congressional offices. they received support from alexandria ocasio-cortez and other young legislators who came into office as part of the sanders-inspired popular wave - another great success. ed markey, senator from massachusetts joined in. now it's's a part of the legislative agenda. the next step is to force it through in some viable form. and there are very good ideas as to how to do that. well, that's the way things can change. with a biden presidency, there would be, if not a strongly sympathetic administration, at least one that can rereached, can be prpressured. and that's very important. if you look over t the very god labor historian -

i'm sure you k know erikik loo, who o has studied the e effors by working people to institute changes in the society, sometimes for themselves, sometimes for the sosociety genenerally. and he's pointeded out - made an intereresting point. these efforts succcceeded when therere was a tolert or sympathetic admdministratat, nonot when there wasn't. that's a big - one of many enormous differences between trump, the sociopath, and biden, who's kind of a pretty empty - you can pupush him onone way or another. ththis is the most crucialal election in human history, literally. another four years of trump, and we're in deep trouble. amamy goodman:n: if you can tk aboutt the enormity of this momen

and the fact that the united states has become the epicenenter of the pandemic in the world. what does this mean?n? the wealthiestst country in the wororld. noam chomsky: wewell, the unitited states is - i mean, countries have reactedd to this in manany ways, some very successfsfully, some more or lesess successfsfu. one is at the e bottom of t the barrel.l. ththat's us. ththe uniteded states isis the only major country that cannot even provide data to the world health organization, because it's so dysfunctional. there's a background. part of the background is the scandalous healthcare system, which simply is not ready

for anything that's out of the normal. it simply doesn't work. this is exacerbated by the strange collection of gangsters in washingngton, who haveve - it's almost ass if they systematically totook every possible step to make it as s bad as possisi. through h trump's teterm, the lalast four years, he has been syststematically cutting backck on all of the healalth-related aspects of the government. pepentagon goes up. buildiding his wall goes u up. but anything -ctctually, anything that t might benefift the general populationon goes dowown, particularly healt. some of it is almost surreal. so, in october, for example, just very exquisite timing,

he canceled completely a usaid project - predict, it was called - that w was working in third word countries, also in china, to try t to detectct new virus that might tururn into the anticicipated paemicic. and in fact it was anticipated since - at l least since t the sars epidemic in 200303. so we have a kind of combination of factors,, some of them specific to the united states. if we want to ensure or at least hope to avoid new pandemics, which are very likely to come, more serious than this one, in part because of the enormrmos rising threat of global warming, we have to look athehe sources o of this one. and it's very important to think them through.

so, jujust roughlyo o go back, pandemics have been predicted by scientists for years. the sasars epidemic was quite serious. it was contained, but vaccines w were - there was the beginningg of devevelopmentnt of vaccine. they never proroceeded t to the e testing phase. it was clear at t that timime that s somhingng more was going g to happen, and d several epidemicics did. but it's not enough to know that. somebody has to o pick up p thel and run withth it. who can do it? wellll, the drug companies are the obvious s place,e, but they have e no interest in . they follow good capitalist logic,, you look at market signals, and there'e's no profit to b bee in prereparing foror a predicted and anticipated catastrophe.

so they weren't interested. at that point, another possibility is the government could step in. i'm old enough to remember the terror of polio was ended by a government-initiated and funded project that finally l led to the salk vaccine, which was free, no intellectual property rights. jonas salk said it should be as free as the sun. ok, that ended the polio terr, measasles terror, others. but the government couldn't step in, because there's another particular aspect of the modern era, the neoliberal plague. now, you remember ronald reagan's sunny smile and his little maxim about how government is the problem, not the solution. so the government can't enter. there were some efforts, nevertheless,

to try to prepare for this. right now in new york and other places, doctors and nurses are forced to make agonizing decisions about who to kill - not a nice decision to make - because they simply don't have equipment. and the main lack is ventilators, huge shortage of ventilators. well, the obama administration did make an effort to try to prepare for this. and this kind of dramatically reveals the kind of factors that are leading to catastrophe. they contracted with a small company that was producing high-quality, low-cost ventilators. the cocompany was bought up by a a largeger one, covidien, which makekes fancy,y, expensive ventilatorors.

and theyey shelved the projeje. presumably, they d didn't want compepetition with theirir own costly ones. shortly after that, they t turned toto the governmt and saidid they wanted the e contract ended.. the e reason wasas it was nonot profitable enough, so therefore no veventilators. we have the same thing in hospitals. hospitalals, under the neoliberal programs, are e supposeded to be efficie, memeaning no spapare capacity, just enough beds to get by. and in fact, plenty of people, me included, can testify that even the best hospitals caused great pain and suffering to patients even before this broke out, because of this just-on-time efficiency concept that was guiding our privatized, for-profit healthcare system.

when anything hits out of the normal, it's just tough luck. and this runs across the system. so we have a combination of capitalist logigic, which is lethal but could be controlled, but it canan't be e controlled under the neoliberalal program, which also say the government can't step in to p pick up the ball whenen the private s sector doe. on top of that - now, this b becomes specific to the uniteted stes - - we have a freaeak show in w washington, a totally dysfunctional government, which is causing enormous problems. and it's notot that nothining was s known. a pandemic was antnticipated l ththrough trtrump's term, eveven beforore. his reaction wasas to cut t bk preparation fofor it..

asastonishingly, this continind evenen after the pandedemic h. so, on february 10, when it was already serious, trump releaseded his budget for e e coming year.r. take a look at it. the budget continues the defunding of the center for disease control and other government institutions responsible for health, continues to defund them. it increases funding for some things, like fossil fuel production, gives new subsidies to the fossil fuel industries. i mean, it's as if the country is simply - maybe not as if - the country is simply run by sociopaths. and the result, so, we cut back on the efforts to deal

with the panandemic that's taking shape, and wewe increase the efforts to desestroy the envonmement, in which - the efforts in whwhih the united states, under trump, is in the lead in racing toto t abybyss. now, bear inin mind thatat tha-- i don't haveve to tell you - is a a far more serious s thrt than t the corononavirus.. now,w, this is bad and serious, particularlyly in the ununited stas, but we'll recover sosomehow, at severe cost. we're not going to recovover from the melting of t the polar ice sheets, which is leaeading to a a feedback effectct, well known, that increases - as they melt, there's less reflective surface, more absorption in the dark seas.

the warming that's melting them increases. that's just one of the factors that's leading to destruction, unless we do something about it. and it's not a secret. just recently, for example, couple of weeks ago, there was a very interesting leak, a memo from jpmorgan chase, america's biggest bank, which warned that, in their words, the survival of humanity is at risk if we continue on our present course, which included the funding of fossil fuel industries by the bank itself, said we're endangering the survival of humanity. everyone who's got eyes open in the trump administrationn is very well aware of this. itit's difficult to find words s for this. i should say, other countries haveve -

first of all,, it was not a secreret. i i mean, it's become coconvenient now. trump is desperatetely seekining some scapegogoat that he e can blame for r his astonishining failures and incompenence. the most recenent one is the wod health organanization, the e china bashing.g. somebody else is responsible. but it's simply -- ththe facts s are very clear. china very q quickly infnformd the world health organization last december ththat they were fifinding g patients with pneumonia-like symptoms with unknown etiology. didn't know what it was. about a week later, january 7, they made public the fact to the world health organization, the general scientific community in the world, that chinese scientists had found out what the source was,

a coronavirus resembling the sars virus. they had identified the sequence, the genome. they were providing the information to the world. u.s. intelligence was well aware of it. they spent january and february trying to get somebody in the white house to pay attention to the fact that there's a major pandemic. just nobody could listen. trump was off playing golf or maybe listening - checking his tv ratings. yesterday, we learned that one very high-level official, very close to the administration, peter navarro,o, in late januarary hahad sent a a very ststrong me to t the white h house saying this is a real danger.

but even he couldn't break through. amy goodman: noam, you mention peter navarro, the trade representative, sending a memo - it just came out in the new york times - in late january warning of the coronavirus, saying that, i thinknk, something g like up p to a miln people could die. and trump took f from that seteg a travel ban on n china, but not doing a corollary, which was ensuring that the united states had the proper tests and also had the ppe, the protective personal equipment, that doctors, that nurses, that the custodial l staff in hospits needed to stay alive, to treat patients, to help them stay alive. and the intelligence agencies, it came out, at this time, even before navarro, they were all warning trump. if you c could go back toto even two years ago,

when he disbanded his pandemic unit within the national securityty council, said thahat when he's at the table in china talking about spending money on bombs or a wall, thehey're not sayin, sir, you alslso have to look at what's happening here? and that unit, pandemic unit, not only is about how we deal inin the uniteted states, bubut also ensururing, as the cdc does and other agencies of the u.s. government, that scientists are sent out to other countries, like china, to investigate and to help other countries, because when it comes to a pandemic, we're all in this together. so, if you could talk about the earlrly warningsgs and why testing and this personal - protective personal equipment is so important? noam chomsky: well, remember that i it continuedd even aftfter the pandec was already inin force.. nonow, the budget proposal is astonishing.

this is february 10, well into the pandemic. trump cuts fururther the healt- relateted componentsts of t the government, continuing the hit. they were under the ax, just as they were throughout his term. actually, , the clipips ththat you playedd beforere are part of a a very clelever strateteg. whetether thisis is nsciciousy planned or just intuitive, i dodon't know.. but the pattttern ofof simply making onene statetement toda, contradicting it tomorrow, coming out with something else the next day is really brilliant. it means he's going to be vindicated. whatever happens, he'll have said it.

you shoot ararrows at random, some of them are going to hit the target. and his technique with the fox echo chamber and the worshipful base simply tuned t to fox, limbaugh, , etc., they're just going to pick whatever hapappened to b be ri, and sasay, look, our r wonderful l president, the greatetest president we've ever h had, our savior, knew it all along, and here was his statemement. cacan't miss. it's verery much like ththe techniquque of procingng constanant lies. you knowow, i don't even have to go through i it. the assiduous fact-checkers tot them up. i think itit's maybe 20,000 by w or somethingng. and d he's laughing alall the . this is perfrfect. yoyou tellononstant lilies,

what happepens is the conceptt of truruth just disappears. amy goodman: we will be back with prorofessor noam chohomsky in a minute.  [music break] amy y goodman: thihis is democy now!, democracynow.org, the quarantine report.

i'm m amy goododman. we are spending the hour with noaoam chomsksky, profesessor emeritus at the massachchusetts institute of technology, where hehe taught for more than half a century. so, this is a clip, noamam, of e daily show with trevor noah called saluting the heroes of the coronavirus pandumbic. it's extxtended, the 3-minute video, highlighting members of the right-wing media, like sean hannity, rush limbaugh, tomi lahren and others, as well as repubublican members of congress and the trump administration, downplaying or mocking the coronavirus pandemic. it starts on february 24 and ends with donald trumpmp claiming marchch 17 and hannity sayiying march 1 18 that they had always taken the pandemic seriously. this is salutingng the hereros of thehe coronavirir pandumbmb.

> tonight i can report the ey is absolutely falling. we are all doomed. the end is near. the apocalypse is imminent, and you're going to all die.e. or at least that's what the media mob would like you to think. >> yeah, i'm dead right on this. the coronavirus is the common cold, folks. the hypepe of this thingng asas a pandemic, as thehe andromeda strain, as oh my god, if you get it, you're dead. >> this is one of those cases where the more i i learn about coronavirus, the less concerned i am. there's a lot t of hyperbole. >> the national left-wing media playing up fears of the coronavirus. >> the sky is falling because we have a few dozen cases of coronavavirus on a cruise sh? i am far more concerned with stepping on a used hoin n needle than i a am getting the coronanavirus. but maybe that's just me. >> it's a virus like the flu. all the talk about coronavirus being g so much more deadly

doesn't reflecect reality. >> this virus should be comparad toto the flu, because at worst - at worst, worst-case scenario - it could be the flu. >> the far more deadlyly, more lethahal threat right now is not the coronavirus, it's this - it's the ordinary, old flu. people are dying right now. >> the flu is here, everywhere. >> nobody has died yet in the united states, as far as we know, from this disease. >> that's right. >> and the facts are actually pretty reassuring. but you'd never know it, watching all this stuff. >> you want to know hohow i really feel about the cororonavirus, juan? if i get it, i'll beat it. i'm not afraidid of the cororonavirus, and no one else should be that afraid, either. >> it is very, very difficult to contract this virus. >> it's mildlder than we though. the fatality rate is going to drop. >> when you hear the context, it's not quite as scary. >> it's actually the safest time to fly. everyone i know that's flying right now, terminals are pretty much dead. and then the planes - remember back in theheay when you had a seat next to you possibly empty? you could stretch out a little more? it's like that on every flight now. >> one of the things you can do, if you're healthy, you and your family, it's a great time

to just go out, gogo to a local restaurant. >> >> yeah. >> likely, you can get in, get in easily. >> republican congreressman matt gaetz mocked concerns about the spread of the virus by wearing a gas mask on capitol hill. he extended his arm with confidence. >> in our line of work, you shake hands. i expect the president will continue d do that. i'll continue to do it. >> w we have contatained this. we have contained this - i won't say airtight, but pretty close to airtight. >> it is being contained. and d do you not think it's being conontained? >> zero pepeople in the united states ofof america hahave died from thehe coronavi. zero. >> this is a flu. this is like a flu. it's going to disappear one day. it's like a miracle. it will disappear. i have felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemim. i took it very s seriously. >> by the way, this program has alwaysys taken the cocoronavirus seriously. amy goodman: thawass sean hannity and donald trump,

right before that, on march 17 and 18th, saying, we have always taken the coronavirus pandemic seriously. saluting the heroes of the coronavirus pandumbic from the daily show with trevor noah, who is now doing his show each night from home to protetect against community spreadad. so, noam c chomskyky, world-rerd polilitical dissident, well-known linguist, author, activist, as you listen to the fox news - this is not just a channel; these are the people thatat presintnt trump c chann. these are perhaps his senior advisers, as they y continually played this down. dodo you holprpresident trump responsible? would you say he has blood on his hands? noam chomsky: there's no queststion. trump makess some crazyzy statement. it's then n amplified by the fox news echo chahamber. the next day, he says the opposisite.

that's echchoed; the echo chambr amplifies thatat. noticece that the tone - the toe of the repeporting is interesti. itit's all with h perfect confnfidence, not what any sanane, rational person would say -- we really don't knknow. there's a lot of uncertaininty. this i is the way things look todaday. there's nothing like thahat. absolute confifidence. no matteter what the dear lead sayays, we amplplify it. and it's a an interesting dialalogue. they amplify what he says. sean hannity c can say, thisis is the greatest movee that wasas ever made in the histo of ththe world.d. anand the next morning, trumump tunes ino fox x & frien, listens to whatever is said. that becomes his thought for the day. it's an interaction, murdoch and trump moving literally

to try to destroy the country and destroy the world, because in the background, we should never forget, is a far greater threat that is coming closer and closer while trump is leading the way to destruction. he has some assistance. so, down on the southern part of the hemisphere, there's another madman, i.e. jair bolsonaro, who's trying to vie with trump toto see who can be e the wort crimiminal on the planet. he's telling the brazilians, it's nothing. it's just a cold. brazilians don't get viruses. we're immune to them. his health minister and other officials are trying to butt in and say, look, this is really serious.

the governors, many of them, fortunately, are ignoring what he says. but brazil is facing a terrible crisis. it's actuaually gotten to the popoint where in the favele, you know, these miseserable slums, in ri, where the government does nothing for the people, others have intervened to try to impose sensible restrictions, insosofar as it's possssible ur those miserarable conditions. who? the crime gangs. the crime gangs, that torture the population, have moved in to try to impose health standards. the indigenous population is facing a virtual genocide, which won't bother bolsonaro. he doesn't think they should be there anyway. meanwhile, while all this is going on, scientific papers

are coming out warning that in 15 years the amazon is going to shift from being a net carbon sink to a net co2 emitter. that's devastating for brazil - in fact, for the whole world. so, we have the colossus of the north, as it's called, in the hanands of sociopatath, who are doining whatever they cn to harm the e country and the woworld. and d the colossus of f the so, as it's been calalled, is, inin its own way, doing the same thihing. i'm m able to follow this pretty c closely because my wife valeria isis brazilian and d keeps me up to datee with the news atat's cing g out in brarazil. and d it's simply y shockingng . but meanwhile, othther countris are e reactingng sensiblbl.

so, as soon as the news started coming out from china - anand there s plplenty of nens ght away, , contrary to whahat is being claimeded - the countries on the chinese periphery began to react - taiwan, sosouth korea, s singae - quiuite effectivelyly. some of them have it basically under control. new zealand has apparently quashed the coronavirus, maybe almost completely, with a lockdown right away, an immediate lockdown for a couple of weeks, and seems to have come close to ending it. you look intnto europe, and mot of europe just dithered, but some countries, the better-organized countries, did act right away. it's very striking. it would be very useful for americans to compare

trump's ravings, of the kind you illustrated, with angela merkel's, german chancellor, her sober, factual account and talk to the german people, describing exactly what's happening and what has to be done. amy y goodman: noam, we only have a minute, bubut i wanted to ask you, as w we speak toto you at your home i in tucson, arizi, where you are sheltering at home, where you arare staying atat he because we are in the midst of this papandemic, to prevent community spread and toto protect y yourself and your family, what gives you hope? noam chomsky: well, i should say that i'm following a stririct regimen, because e my wife valeria is takaking charge, and i follow herer orders. so valereria andnd i are in isolalation.

but what gives me hope is the actions that popular groups are taking all over ththe worl, mamany othemem. someme of them are - there are some things hahappeningg thatrere truly i inspiring. tatake the doctors and the nurss who are working overtime under extremelyy dangngers condnditions, lackin-- especially in the united statet, lacking evenen minimal support, being compelled to make these agonizing decisions about who to kill tomorrow. but they're doing it. it's just a - it's an inspiring tribute to the resources of the human spirit, a model of what can be done, along with the popular actions, the moves to create a progressive international.l. these are e all very positive signs.

but you look back inin recent history, there have been times where e things looked really hopeless and desperate. i can go back to my early childhood, the late 1930's, early 1940's. it l looked as though the rise of the nazi plague was ininexorable, victory after victory. it looked like you couldn't stop it. it was the most horrible development in human history. well, turns out - i didn't know that at the time - that u.s. planners were expecting that the post-war world would be divided between a u.s.-controlled world and a german-controlled world, including all of eurasia - a horrifying idea. well, it was overcome. there have been other serious - the civil rights movement,

young freedom riders going out into alabama to try to o encouragee black k farmers to go to voto, despite the threat, serious threat, of being murdered, and being murdered themselves. these were some - this is examples of what humans can do and have done. and we see many signs of it today, and that's the basis for hope. amy goodman: noaoam chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, lingnguist, auauthor, spspeaking to us from tucson, where he is shelteriring from home. we will speak to him in a moment.  [music break]

amy goodman: t this is dememocy nonow, democracynow.org, the quarantine report. i'm m amy goododman. we return n to our c conversatn with noam chomsky. if you can t talk for a moment, globally, abouout what's happengng on an issu that has been close to your heart for decades, and thatats the occupied territotories, gaza and t the west bank, what it means for a place like gaza, calllled by the u.n. and people around the world

a kind of openen-air prisonn of almost twtwo million people, what the pandemic could mean there? noam chomsky: it's almost impossible to think about. gaza is two million people who are in the - living in a prison, open-air prison, under constantnt attack. israel, which is the occupying power, recognized b by eryoyone in the world excxcept israel-- israel is imposing - has been imposing very harsh sanctions evever since the palestitinias made the misistake of carrying g out the first fre election in the arab world and electing the wrong peoplpl. the e united s states and isrl came down on them like a ton of bricks. israel's policy, as was explained by dov weissglas,

the person in charge of the withdrawal of israeli troops, the withdrawal of the settlers and imposition of the new regime - he explained frankly, we are putting the people of gaza on a diet, just enough to keep them alive, meaning wouldn't look good if they all die, but not anything more than that. so, not a piece of chocolate or a toy for a child. that's out. just enough to stay alive. and if you have a serious health problem, maybe you can apply to go to the hospital in east jerusalem. maybe after a couple of weeks, you'll be allowed to go. maybe a child is allowed to go, but his mother is not allowed to come. if the pandemic - there are now a couple of cases in gaza. if that extends, it's a total disaster.

international institutions have pointed out that by 2020 - that's now - gaza willll probaby become b barely livablble. about 95% of the water is totally polluted. the place is a disaster. and trump has made sure that it will get worse. he withdrew funding from the support systems for palestinians in gaza and the west bank - unrwa, killed the fundnding; palestinian hospitals, killed the funding. and he had a reason. they weren't praising him enough. they weren't respectful of the god, so, therefore, we'll strangle them, even when th'ree barelyly surviving undeder a hars and d brutal regegime. inincidentally, ththis extendso palestinians in israel, as well.

human rights activists in israel pointed out recently - there's artiticles about it in haaretz z - that isrsrael finally y began to set up a fefew drive-by testing areas only in jewiwish arereas, not in the arereas with palestinian populatation. and to make sure that the intended results would follow, theyey announced i it only in hebebrew, not in arabic, so palestinians wouldn't even know. well, that's within israel. in the occupied territories, far worsrse. and the trump hammer came in saying, we're not even goioing to give you a penny, because you're not respecectful enough of me. dodon't kn h how to descriribe this kind of thing.. i can't find worords for it. amy goodman: noam chomsky, what do you think is required

in an international response to stop the rise of authoritarianism in response to this pandemic? for example, in n the philippin, where the authoritarian leader, trump ally, duterte, talks about killing people; the massive crackdown, without susupport of the people e of india, 1.3 billion people, with narendra modi. president trump was in india as the pandemic was taking off, never sayiying a word about it, packing a stadium of 100,000 people. you have orbán in hungary, whwho is now rulining by decr. what would it take to turn that around to be a progressive response? noam chomsky: well, actually, what's happeningng, toto the e extent thatat you cad some cohoherent policy

in the madness in thehe white housese, one thing does emerge with considerable clarity - namely, an effort to construct an international ofof the most reactionary states and oppressive stateses, led by the gangsteter in the white h house. now, this is taking shape. i can run through it, but since you mentioned india, modi, who is a hindu nationalist extrtremist, is systematically moving to destroy indian secular democracy and to crush the muslim population. whwhat's happenining in kashmr isis horrifying.g. it was bad enough before, now getting much worse. same with the muslim population, a huge population in india.

the current lockdown is almost-- you can almost describe it as genocidal. modi gave, i think, a four-hour warning saying total lockdown. that's over a billion people. some of ththem have nowhere to . people in the informal economy, which is a huge number of people, are just cast out. go walk back to your village, which may be a thousand miles away. die on the roadside. this is a huge catastrophe in the making, right on top of the strong efforts to impose ththe ultra-right hindutva doctrtrines that are a at the core of modis thinking and background.

what's happening in - quite apart from this, india - in fact, south asia generally - is going to become unlivable pretty soon, if current climate policies persist. last summer, the temperature in rajasthan went up to 50 degrees centigrade. and it's increasing. there's hundreds of millions of people in india that don't have access to water. it's going to get much worse, could lead to a nuclear war between the two powers that basically rely on the same water resources, which are declining under global warming, pakistan and india. i mean, the hohorror story that's developing is, again, indescribable. you can't find words for it. and some people are cheering about it,

like donald trump and his friend bolsonaro o in brazil, a couple of other sociopaths. but how do you counter a reactionary international? by d developing a progressivie ininternational. and there are steps to that. they don't get much publicity, but this - i thkk it's this s ming d december, there will be a formal announcement of w what has been in process for some time.. yanis varoroufakis, the founder and leading figurere in diem25, the progressive movement in europe, very important - varoufakis and bernie sanders came out with a declaration calling for a progressive international to combat and, we hope, , overercome the reactionary international

based in the white house. now, if you look at the level of states, this looks like an extreremely unequal competition. but states are not ththe only t things that exis. if y you look at the levevel f people, it's not impossisible. it's possible to construct a progressive ininternational bad onon peopl, ranging from the organized political groups that have been proliferating, that have gottenen a huge shot inin the arm frfrom the sdeders campaign,n, ranging from them to self-help mututual aid, self-help organizationss that are rising in commutities all over thehe world,, inin the most impoveverished as of brazil, for example, and eveven this astonishing fact that i mentioned, that the murderorous crime gans are taking responsibility

for bringing somome form of decent protection against the pandememic in the favelas, the mimiserable slums, i in r. alall of this is happening on the p pular l level. if it expands and develops, if people e don't just give up in despair but work to chanange the w wor, asas theveve done in t the pat under much worse cononditions, if they do that, there's s a chance fofor a progogressive e interna. and notice, bebear in n mind, that therere are alslso strikg cases of internatitionalism, progressivive internatationali, at the state level. so, take a look at the european union. the rich countries in europe, like germany, hahave recently giveven us a len in just what the union means. right?

germany is managing pretty well. they probably have the lowest death rate in the world, in organized society. right t next door, northern itay is suffering miserably. is germany giving them any aid? no. in fact, germany even blockeked the effort to d develop euro bonds, generaral bonds in europee which could be used to alleviate t the suffering in the countries under the worst conditions. but fortunately for italy, it can look across the atlantic for aid from the superpower on the western hemisphere, cuba. cuba is, once again, as before, exhibiting extraordinary internationalism, sending doctors to italyly. germany won't do it, but cuba can.

china is providing m material a. so, these are steps towards progressive internationalism at the state level. amy goodman: world-renowned political dissident, linguist, author, noam chomsky, professor emeritus at massachusettsts institute of technology, where he taught for more than half a century. noam joined us from his home in tucson, arizona, where he is sheltered in place. that d does it for our show. to see more of our conversation, go to democracynow.org, and also sign up for our daily quarantine report. democrcracy now is working withs few people on-site as possible. the majority of our teamam is working from home. democracy now! is lookining for fefeedback from people who appreciatete the clososed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now!

p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. please be safe. i'm amy goodman. thanks for joining us.

"newsline." i'm yamamoto miki in tokyo. a new way of life here in japan. that's the message from prime minister abe shinzo whose government plans to reopen social and economic activities in phases as the country recovers from the first w wave the coronavirus. on monday abe declared the state of emergency over in the reremaining