[captioning made possible amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> here and now, i give you my word. if you entrust me with the presidency, i will draw on the best of us,, not the woworst. i will be an ally of the light, not the darkness. amy: today, a democracy now! special. harvard professor cornel west and ben jealous, president of people for the amican wayay, formrmer head d of the n naacp, onon presidedent trumpmp's s d and on former vice president joe biden's vow to fight systemic racism and "overcome this season of darkness in america," the historic nomination of kamala harris

as his partner on the ticket, and how the democratic national convention showcased a broad anti-trump coalition, including prominent republican figures, but few voices from the party's insurgent left wing. >> a vote for bibiden isis an anti-fascists vote. that's different than in any y y falling prey to ilillusions. we have to be able to keep our hopes while we kill the illusions. ben n jealous: whilele it's nt bernie, d while maybybe it's nott somebody else sosomeone hoped d, at we do k know w is that these are people ththat we can wowork with.. these are people who, at their best, represent our best values amy: we will also look at the uprising against police brutality and racism with professor angela davis. angela davis: this is an extraordinary moment. i have never experienced anything like the conditions we are currently experiencing, the conjuncture createted by the covid-19 pandndemic and d the recognition of the systemic raracism

that has been rendered visisibe under these conditions bebecause of the disproportrtionate deaths in black and l latinx communities. amy: allll that on more -- and more, coming up.  welcome to democracynow, democracynow.o.org, the quarantine report. i am amy goodman. today in a a democracy now! special, we look at thee democraticic party's nomination of joe biden for president, and his historic pick of senator kamala harris as his vice-presidential running mate, making her the first woman of color to run on a major party ticket. just after thehe democratic nanational convevention wrapped, i spoke with dr. cornel west, professor of the practice of public philosophy at harvardrd universitity, auththor of numemerous books including "race matttters and "black prophetic fire." in 2017, cornel west was in charlottesville

when neo-nazis stormed the campus. he and other clergy members were protected by anti-fascists frfrom the mobob of white supremacists. also with us in baltimore, maryland, was ben jealous, presesident of people fofor the american way, former president of the naacp. hehe ran for governor of mararyland in 2018. i began the conversation just after the democratic convention concluded by asking ben jealous what the convention represented. ben jealous: you know, look, i think that the theme of this convention was really one of f unity. this was a time when we have to come together to defeat a prpresidentt who is t the most evevil, the most corrupt thatat any of have e seen. and ththat says a a lot. it also was a time w when we sw two nominees who w we, as progressives, knowow we can work w with. kakamala h harris's sister,, who introduceded her, mayaya,

isis the former r he of f the u of northern california. kamala r ran for d da in a muh more conservative ti,, and yet did so as an outspokokn opponent of the death h penalt, who then held her ground early in her term when she was tested, when an officer was killlled, and the entire liberal l establblishment in northern california came down on her,, and shshe said, "thehe death p y isis wrong, , period."." tremendous courage. and joe deden, who o bernie himimself said isis poised d to be the most progressive prpresident since f. and d so, while it's not bernr, and while e mae it's s not somebody else someone hohoped f, what w we do knonow ishat these are people we can work with. these are people who, at their best, represent our best values -- liliterally,y, the daughter ofof civil rights activivists, the sister of a civil rights lawyeyer, who herself toldld me 15 years o she became a prosecutor bebecause itit wasn't t enoh to just fight the power, we a also hadd to hold d the power. and i've seen n her act courageoususly.

so i''m veryry hopefulul and i have no doubtt that we can n wo with joe. like adydy, who spspoke so beaututifully,, and thatat was a truee highlight for meme, i believe that w we must move towards medicare foror all. i i also believe that joe biden will t take us further in t that direrection cecertainly y than dononaltru, and, frankly, furtherr than most presidentsts, that w we have an opportunity here to move e things inin the right direction again. and d as organizers, that's the most important t thing to get out of any presidential election,n, is a a presidedent that t you ce in t the rightht directitio. amy: a and, professor cornel we, your reaction to this week and d the posisitions ofof the democratic c candidatess for president and vice preresident?? cornel west: you know, sister amy, my points of reference really are the freedom dreams that we just heard from zoom of the commodores and the genius lionel ritchie, of ella baker, who was ininvoked by brother b biden in the firirst sentence of hisis speech,

the elella baker who was s a revolutionary, ththe ella baker who was workig on the mass party organizing committee with arthur kinoy and the great william kunstler, actually working for a third party because she thought that the two-party system was so decrepit, and then alslso to curtis mayfield, that they've been playing over and over again, to "move on up." but you've got to momove on up p from poverty. and in order to do it, you've got to talk about poverty. if you're going to move on up from wall street greed and wall street crimes, you've got to talk about wall street greed and wall street crimes. if you're going to move on up from the pentagogon militarism around the world, you've got to talk about it. those are the taboo issues that we don't get serious wrestling with. so when you really talk about the soul of america and the babattle for the sosoul of america, much of that soul has been evacuated by the pentagon greed and the wall street greed and the ininability of the polie and other institutions to treat black people and brown people,

indigenous people as human beings. so, i agree with brother benen in terms of being part of an anti-fascist c clition, that i think we're forced to vote for biden, but we're not goioing to lie about biden, we're n not going to lie aboutut harris. we're going to tell the truth about their captivitity and their refusal to hit pentagon money spending and militarism around the world, to hit wall street greed, and to also speak substantively to issues of poverty. you can't have massive protests all aroundnd the country, the lalargest in thehe historyry of the country, you can't have brother barber and sistster theoharis out there talking about poverty, and then, when you get to the convention, you get this spectacle that has nothingng to do with wrestling with poverty. i think brother cory was the only one to even talk about it, for the most part. none of the major figures did. thank god, did b bernie. thank god aoc got her 90inutes asas opposed t to the republica-

amy: 90 seconds. cornel west: getting major -- i'm sorry, 90 seconds. exactly, 90 seconds. so that, you k know, i'm with ben in terms of we'veve got to vote for biden, bubut never, ever lying about him, and not coming to terms with the fact that at this moment, wiwith the decline and fall of the american empire, it looks as if the system is unable to generate enough energy to seriously reform itself. it remains sanitized, superficial. we're getting lawrence welk's bubbles rather than prints -- prince's revolution. >> sococial security is a sacred obligation, a sacred promise m made, they p paid for. the current president is threatening to break that t promise. he's proposing to eliminate a tax

that pays for almost half the social security, without any way of making up for that lost revenue, resulting in cuts. i will not let that happen. if i'm your president, we're going to protect social security and medicare. you have my word. amy: during the primary campaign, bernie sanders released an a ad highlighting bibiden's past support for cuttg social security and d medicare. the ad highlighteded an interviw biden did on meet the press in 200707. tim russert: senator, we havee a defificit. we he social s security d d medicare l looming. wod d you considider looking g at those programs, age availabilility, cost of living, put it allll on the table? sen.oe biden: the e answer is absolutely, yoyou have to. i mean, you u know, one of t the things ththat my- u know, ththe politicacal adviss say to me is,, "whohoa! don't t touch that t third" -- okok, the amamerican people aren't stupid. it's a a real simple problem.. social securitity is not the e hard one to solve.

medicacare, that is the e goria in the room. and yoyou' g got to put t all ot onhe tabable. tim rurussert: everything?g? sen. joe biden: everytything. you've gotot to. amamy: "you've got t to put all of it t on the tabable." ben jealouous, both h you and professosor cornel wt haveve been surrogates for bernie sanders. can yoyou talkbobout how thaht relates to joe biden today anand his positionons? ben jejealous: joe b biden toy neneeds bebernie, neededs everyone who voteded for bernieie, to become prpresi. jojoe biden n today hahamoved with t the party to o the lef. and joe biden today gets, in hisis core, that we have to protect medicare, that we hahave to protect socicial sececurity. i wowon't deny he's a politicin who hahas been a at differerent places at different points. but i know whehere he is nowo. and i i think wewe have to take a cue from bernie and be verery clear that everybobody needs to vote

against trump and d for biden in this moment, so we haveve a president that we can n move. there's no moving trump, but t it is dedefinitelyly pose to movove joe. anand every organizer ultimatey needs s a presidident that they can momove. amy: so, cororl west, i saidid, you know, this obvbviously -- that was a clip from 2007. that's what, 13 years ago. cornel w west: that's riright. that's righght. amy goodman: but only y recentl, presididential candidate joe bin sasaid even i if a medicare for all -- now, that's different than medicare that he was talking about inin 2007, that would have e been medicare for everyone in this country -- even if medicare for all were passed, which would mean bipartisan support, he would veto it, if he were president. cornel west: i mean, one -- i i mean, brother biden told my dear brother bebernie, in front of the nanation,

"i never, everer entertained ththe possibilityy of c cutting medicare and social security." and you've got the evidencee that h he did. so he lied, you know. but, i mean -- amy goodman: actually, let me go to joe biden. cornel west: as brother ben is right. i mean, politicians -- amy goodman: let me go -- cornel west: politicians lie all the time. but -- amy goodman: let me go to joe biden. cornel west: yeah, go right ahead. amy goodman: he was speaking on msnbc with lawrence o'donnell, saying what he would do if he were elected president and d he got a medicare for all bill. joe biden: i would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of healthcare being available now. if they got that through, and by some miracle, anand there wawas an epiphany that occurred, and some miracle occurred that said, "ok, it's passed," then you've got to look at the cost. i want to know, how did they find the $35 trillion? what is that doing? is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle class? which it will. what's going to happen? lolook, my opposition isn't to the principle

that there should be you should have medicare. i mean, , if everybody -- hehealthcare s should be a riright in america.. my opposition relates to whether or not, a, it's doable, two, what the cost is, and what the consequences for the rest of the budget are. amy: so, professor west, that was joe biden in march, just as we're movining into the pandemic. and do you think this pandemic has highlightedd so many inequities, that it would make it actually easier, because of the horror of the number of deaths disproportionately affecting people of color and poorer peoeople in this country, to actually move that agenda forward, and do you think joe biden could bebe that peperson as preside? cornel west: well, i hope so. i mean, that's why we've got to push him over the linine, but we have to be very honest with ourseselves. i mean, we've got over 68% of fellow citizens who support medicarere for all, 46% of republicans, 85% of democrats do.

and yet, big pharmaceutical companies, big private insurance companies, the donors, still dictate the destiny of policy. now, people are not stupid in this regard. i mean, the distinctive features of a dececline of an empire, military overreach, 53 cents of every dollar is goingng to the military, 53 c cents of every dollar in the city of chicago gogoes to the polilice -- militarism domesticacally, militarismsm abroad. bubut at the s same time, you say to yourself, "well, the people themselves are moving in a progressive direction" -- brother ben is right -- "but t there's s no translatio" that's why we didn't hear enough serious progressivive voices during the spectacle, because you've got this big money still rendering captive so many of those in the democratic party, and they want to speak and give a lip servicice to justice, but there's no real substance there in terms of sustaining an attack on poverty,

sustaining an attack on the mass incarceration system and the new jim crow, sustaining redistribution of wealth downward. you can't talk about racism if you don't talk about black people having access to wealth. it could be reparations.s. it could be redistribution. we have to have access to wealth and income. and this is true for black, for brown. this is true for i indigenous peoples. this is true for asians, across the board. and so, what has happened, though, sister amy, is that we're getting a sad spectacle that remains on the surface, and yet the massive suffering and misery that's taking place is intensifying, and we're getting the unraveliling of public life with the post ofoffice and a whole host of other public institutions, education, and we're getting the inability to envision a substantive alternative to the present, so we end up tied to this nightmarish reality. so, yes, a vote for biden as an anti-fascist vote,

that's different than in n any y falling prey t to illusions. we have to be able to keep our hopes while we kill the illusions. and if we can'n't walk that tighthtrope, we're not g going to makeke it as a countntry. amy: medicare for all issue, when it came to the presidential debates, kamala harriris raised herer hd when asked if she supported medicare for all, but, the next dayay, said she hadn't heard the question properly, she misunderstood. beben jealalous, youou've knonon kakamala harris for a long tim. ben jealous: yeah. amy: now, the vivice presidedt doesn't determine the agenda, of coursrse, the presisident d. but your thohoughts on this, and as a supporter for this, ben jealous, whahat do you think is the best t strategy? people are saying you wait until november 4, and then you apply massive pressure, or do you start now? and if people don't start now, if they y are suppressed,, because, as cornel west said, it's a vote against fascism,

will a pattern be set where it's too late after the election? ben jealous: yeah, my heart broke when i saw my friend, mrmr. barkan spepeak via c com. the last t time i was withth h, we were e just fouour blocks from the capitol, totogether encouraging, , helpg train dozens of activists who were about t to get arrested i in protests demandining medicare for all. as an organizer, i i can't pretd that it's alall about where we are at this moment. itit is alwaysys about our v v. it is about the will of the people, and it is about the trend thehe movemenent in ourur coun. and all of those poioint tarars the day y when mededicare for all will be a reality. and sure, you hahave -- it wasas in my own pririmary - yoknow, establishment t progressssive, progressives who seeee themselvs as experts on the budgetet,

who have been completely bamboozlzled by corporations into believing that we can't affordrd it. and d yet, year r after year, we see more and more studies by acadedemics, by thinknkanks, saying,, "you know, actually, medicacare for a all is the most afaffordable o option."" so, , i believe e that becausef the momovement in ththis count, the opinion n of the peoeople, asas laid out by dr. w west, bebecause of the resolve of organizers, not just ady, but all l the legigions inspired by him and by my good friend, drdr. barber, that we will get medicare for all. and i dodon't depend on the platform position of somome politician. no, i i look to o the will of t the people. i look t to thmomoveme anthe trtrend. so that't's where my hope isi, and as an organizer, i know we have to havave a president, we have toto have a vivice prest thatat we can work with. can wewe move biden? absosolutely. can we move harris? absosolutely. and ththat's where my confidence e is. am of course, , ady barkan did gigive a major --

he gave a few minutes of an address,s, but i've never heaeard him s sk without sasaying the words "medicare for all," and here he didn't say it -- not clear if it was because of the contenders' positions. of course, right afterwards, he tweeted, we will be fighting for medicare for all, starting on november 4. and he descrcribed it, he just dididn't use the words. but speaking about who spoke, let me ask cornel west if you're concerned about, you know, we were showing, at the beginning of the broadcast, all the presidential rivals, almost all of them, in discussion yesterday. and a number of them got key positions, including the former republican, bloomberg. you had amy klobuchar. you had cory booker and so many others. but you didn't have julián castro, who we spoke to at the beginning of the week. how is it possible that the only latinx presidential candidate was not invited, when almost all of the rest of them were? cornel west: i mean, i think it's ridiculous, i memean, when you've got the neofascist gangster in the white house,

he started his whole campaign attacking g our precious mexican brothers and sisters. and here you've got a chicano from texasas, who is brilliant and sharp, and doesn't get a chance to speak. but brheher bloombmberg does. you say, "wait, michael bloomberg, the billionaire?" and then sister linda sarsour gets demonized and pushed out because she stands for palestinians, she's against the vicious israeli occupation. biden is t talking about human rights. harris is talking ababout a cocoalition ofof conscience. you can't have a coalition of conscience and d talk aboutut human righs if you don't come to terms with precious palestinians under israeli occupation. ain't nothing anti-jewewish about that. in fact, it affirms jewish values coming out of hebrew scripture: "justice, justice you shall pursue." they're talking about justice. so the role of the lobbies, you've got aipac, you've got big pharm, you've got big private insurance companies,

you've got k street, across the board. and these are moral anand spiritual issues. these are not tribal. these are not just about identity and g group politics. if we can't reach a point of integrity, honesty and decency -- and by "spirituality," all i mean is the use of empathy and imagination to envision another future, a better future -- if we're unable to do that, we're locked in, and, l lo and behold, we just slide down a slippery slope to chaos and fascism. amy: prorofessor cornel west and ben jealous, head of people for the american way,, more in a minute. [] [music brereak]

amy: this is democracy now democracynow.org, the quarantine reporort. i am amy goodmanan. just after the democratic natitional cononvention wound d, i asked d about how the dnc showcased a broad anti-trumpmp coalition, including prominent republican figures,

but not so m many voices from thehe progressive wining. this is former governor john kasich addressing the dnc. john kasich: i am sure there are republicans and independenents who o could not t imagine crosg over to support t a democrat. i know the measurere of the man is reasonable, faithful, respectful. amy: ben jealous? ben jealous: one off e e great momentnts for meme is that 13 of our yoyoung people spopoke. mayor gagarcia of longng beac, a a producuct of our youngg oplele for progrgram, raumesh akbari, state senator from tennessee, stacey abramam, who, with julián castro, was s in the fstst class. and so, , yes, absolutely, i would -- you know, the first class ofur young g elected d officials pro. and i would loveve to have seen lián spoke,

and he should have spoke. and yet, you've got to look at thehe future and the trenend. the young people w who spoke, lieutenant governor mandela barnes -- amy goodmaman: of wiwisconsin. ben jealous: mr. kenyayatt who's ththe first t openly b bl- ththe first openenly gay blackck membmber of the pennsylvania s e legislate e -- they r represent the fututure. and we can't take this away frfrom them. sure, there is alwlways a struge in a party bebetween older politicians and younger politicians. but let's not prpretend lilike wewe don't t see the future in the young public servants who spoke during this convention, because it's there. and it s shows a pararty that is much more distinct,, and a party that's much more in touch, and a party that is being moved in the right directiti by thehe people e of this s co, which, o of coursese, the rerepublicanan party i is. and so, this is a momentnt when i thinink weavave toe veryry clr with thehe young p people of thihis countrtry ththat what theyey see i in aoc,

wh they y see in raumeshsh inin tennessee, is a reflection ofof their powr to m move this count in the r right direction. and what i saw all through the program m was evididence of th. and, y you know,w, sure, parties alwaysys bring out somebody frorom the otother pay to suggest that wewe can rebuild the mididdle. we are, i think, all hungry to get beyond the moment of division in this country. i embrace that. there's no republican who rerepresent t my values. but t are therere some w w reprt my h hope ththat we cacan get to a a place where it's not t just cririmil justice rereform that we can agree on,, but maybe there's two issues that we can agree e on? certainly. and i welcome ththat day, becau, as a criminal jujustice reforme, the way thatat we've been able to shrhrink prisons inin places s like texexas is by y finding g the republics that we can work with inin that t moment. amy:y: ben, vevery quickckl, i was wowondering g your respoe to the 13-year-old boy who spokoke from new hampshire,

named brayden harrington, who had a stutter. ben jealous: it madede me cry.y> without joe biden, i would not be talking with you. he said we were members of the same club. we stutter. it was really y amazing to hear that someone like me became vice president. he told meme about a buck ofof problemems by yates. he showed me how he marks his addresses to make it easier to say out loud, so i did the same thing g toda. we all want the world to feel better. wewe all need d the world to feel betterer. i am just a kid and just a shortrt time, joe biden made me feel confident.

ben jealous: it made me cry. i mean, i grew up with a stutter. i'i've been involved in every presidential since jesse jackson's 198888. i was 14 y years oldld. i was the president of youth for jajackson in monterey count. it wasas anotherer candidadate, joe biden, who inspipired me. firsrst time iavave a speech to a group of f democrats, i stuttered so badly thatat an old d woman, an old hipippie, like so many peoeople who i grew u up with, cacame up toto me withth a medititation tatae and slipped it i in my pocket and saidid, "b"boy, please listen to this." beining a younung person with so much to say, and not t being able to get the words out, is dedeeply painful. i knknow what my candidacycy in marylyland meant to yououng people who ststutter here, to o older people who stutter. and i knknow what joe biden has meant to all of us who stutter. eveven when n i was fifightg for jesse jackson's campaiaign, he was in a very different place in that t race. the factct that he had grownwnp with a a stutterer

anand found d his voice wass as transformative for me, as a a young person with a a vo, as the candidate that i was pushing in that t primary so many years s ago. amy: andnd finallyly, cornel w, i began by saying you were in charlottesville, and this is the anniversary of charlottesville, where the, basically,, the klan witithout hoods, they felt safe enough in this country today not to wear sheets and cover their identities. where you wewere, talk about who you were saved by, since this is gogoing to be the theme nenext week of president trump in the republican national convention, goining after antifa and ththe anti-fascists, when who has been arrested in this country at this point, beenen charged? those charged with murderr or attacks have been overwhelmingly proud boys and "boogaloo." cornel west: well, i mean, we were standing as part of an anti-fascist coalition, just the same logic that we talk about

in terms of pushing biden and harris across the line, but also telling the truruth abt them, their in charlotottesvill. that coalition was a broad one. we saw at the convention, we've got colin powell, militaristic, still part of that coalition. he's not my political friend. he's a brother. i'm a christian. i try to love everybody, you know. we've got my dear brother bob avakian, revolutionary communist party, and carl dix, all now talking about voting for biden, against the fascist, but not fetishizing the vote, not thinkiking that somehow biden is going to be this salvific fifigure or eveven biden has principles and integrity that relate to poor and working people. brother ben knows that the mass incarceration regime, you had a whole lot of precious folk who went to jail who stuttered, because of biden. you've got a whole lot of folk who stuttered in iraq, who were killed, because of biden's s support.

we have to be honest about those issues that relate to t the soul of america. you can't have a soul with massive militarism. you can'n't have a soul with massiveve wall street gree. these e are fundamental issues. ben and i haveve talked about ts on the campaign with brother bernie. amy: we are going to get final l comments, but we w want to go to axios,, the interview ben swan did wiwith president trump tatalking abouout congressman john lewis. ben: how do you think history will remember john lewis? >> i don't know. i don't knowow. i dodon't know johohn les. he chose n not to come my y inauguratition. i never met john lewewis. beben: do you find him impmpres? >> i c can't say one waway or a anotherer, i fifind a lot peoeople impresessive, a lolot of people nonot impress.

he dididn't cocome to my are inauguguration or s state of the union speeches. no one has done more for african-americans than i have and he should have come. ben: do you find his story impressive, what he's done for this country? >> he was a person that devoted a lot of energy and heart to civivil rights, but ththere werere many otother. amy: there were many others, and he d didn't come to my stae of thehe unionr inauguguration. beben jealous, your finalal comments?s? ben jealouous: that is the m mt cowardly president we have ever s seen, and vain. dr. lewis who has inspired me my whole life, has been a r real friend,,

the prophetic voice in politics must do twtwo things. onone is to o be honest ababout where we are, and d the otheher is to o e honestst about where we e can . and in our church, in the black churcrch, inin our tradidition, we clalaim the v victory i in a, and then we make it real. and what i know is that there is a a day comiming when w wwill have e medicarere for all, when we will l transforom pupublic safety, and that getting to that day begins with g getting t the man you just saw, donaldld trump, out of o offi. amgogoodman: corornel west, 30 sececonds. ben jealous: andnd that we have to be absolutely clear wiwith the y young people of this country that they will d determinene whr trump stays in office e or not, by whether or not theyey show up t to vote.. amy goododman: corornel west? cornel west: that's true. no, , i agree with b brother b. i agree with brorother ben. i would just add one thing, though, brother ben. it's not just a matter that m medicare will come. we have to poioint out who the major obstacles arare, and those obstacles are big pharmaceututical companies

and big private insurance, who too often provide the moneys for the p politicias who remain stuck in the middle ground rather than pushing all the way. ben jealous: amen. amy: thahat's cornel west and bn jealous, former h head of the naacp. you can see all l of our breakig with c convention coveragege including on republicacan natiol convention at demomocracynow.or. when we come back, w we look at the uprising agagainst police brutality with professor angela davis. [] [music break]

amy: this is democracy now democracynow.org, the quarantine repeport. as we tuturn now to look at the uprprising againsnst police brurutality iny after the policece killing ofof george floyd in minneapapo, prototests have helped dramatically shift ththe viewew on sysmic raracism.

we turn to the ledges stare activist and scholar, angela davis, professor emeritus. angela davis has been one of the most influential activists and intellectuals in the united states, and an icon in the black liberation movement. i asked if she thought this moment was truly a turning point. angela davis: this is an extraordinary moment. i have never experiencnced anything like the e conditiois we are currently experiencing, the conjnjuncture creaeated by the covid-19 9 pandemic and the recocognition of the systemic racism that has been rendered v visibe under these conditions bebecause of the dispsproportionate deaths in black andnd latinx communities.

and ththis is a momement i don't knknow whether i ever expected to experience. when the protests began, of coursrse, around the murder of george floyd and breonna taylor and ahmaud arbery and tony mcdade and many others who have lost their lives to racist state violence and vigilante violence, when these protests erupted, i remembered something that i've said many times to encourage activists, who often feel that the work that they do is not leading to tangible results. i ofteten ask them to consider the very long trajectory of black struggles. and what has been most important is the forging of legacies, the new arenas of struggle that can be handed down to younger generations. but i've often said one never knows when conditions may give rise to a conjuncture

such as the current one that rapidly shifts popular consciousness and suddenly allows us to move in the direction of radical change. if one does not engage in the ongoing work when such a moment arises, we cannot take advantage of the opportunities to change. and, of course, this moment will pass. the intensity of the current demonstrations cannot b be sustained over tim, but we will have to be ready to shift gears and address these issues in different arenas, including, of course, the electoral arena. amy: angela davis, you have long been a leader of t the critical resistance movement, the abolition movementnt. and i'm wondering if you can explain the dememan, as you see it, what you feel needs to be done, around defunding the police,

and then around prison abolition. angela davis: well, , the call to defund the police is, i thinink, an ababolitionist de, but it reflects only one aspect of the processss representeted by the d demand. defunding the policece is nott simply a about withdrawing fundg for law enfoforcement and dodoing nothing else.. and it appears as if this isis e rarather superficial understanag that h has caused biden to move in the direction he's moving i it's about shifting publilic fus to new s services and new institutions, mental health counselors, who can respond to people who are in crisis without arms. it's about shifting funding to education,

to housing, to recreation. all of these things help to create security and safety. it's about learning that safety, safeguarded by violence, is not r really safety. anand i would say ththat abolin is not primaririly a negative strategy.y. it's not primarily about dismantling, getting rid of, but it's about re-envisioning. it's about building anew. and i would argue that abolition is a feminist strategy. and one sees in these abolitionist demands that are emerging the pivotal influence of feminist theories and practices. amy: explain that further. angela davis: i want us to see feminism not only as addressing issues of gender,

but rather as a methodological approach of understanding the intersectionality of struggles and issues. abolition feminism counters carceral feminism, which has unfortunately assumed that issues such as viololence against womn can be effectively addressed by using pololice force, by using imprisonment as a solution. and of course we know that josepeph biden, in 1994, who claims that the violenence agaiainst women act was such an important moment in his career -- the violence against women act was couched within the 1994

crime act, the clinton crime act. and what w we're calling f for is a process of decriminalization, not -- recognizing that threats to safety, threats to security, come not primarily from what is defined as crime, but rather from the failure of institutions in our country to address issues of health, issues of violence, education, etc. so, abolition is really about rethinking the kind of future we want, the social future, the economic future, the political future. it's about revolution, i would argue. amy: you write in freedom is a constant struggle, "neoliberal ideology drives us to focus on individuals,

ourselves, individual victims, individual perpetrators. but how is i it possssible to se the massssive problem of r ract statate violencece by calling upon individual police officers to bear the burden of that history and to assume that by prosecuting them, by exacting our revenge on them, we would have somehow made progress in eradicating racism?" so, explain what exactly you're demanding. angela davis: well, neoliberal logic assumes that the fundamental unit of society is the individual, and i would say the abststract individidual. according to that logic, black people can combat racism by pulling themselves up by ththeir own individual bootstra. that logic recogognizes -- oror fails, rather, to recogninize that there are institutional barriers that cannot be brought down by individual determinatioion. if a black person is materially unable to atattend thehe univery

the solution is nott affirmative e action, they argu, but ratherer the p person simply needs to work hardeder, get goodod grades and do what is necessary in order to acquire the funds to pay for tuition. neoliberal logic deters us from thinking about the simpler solution, which is free ededucation. i'm thinking about the fact that we have been aware of the need for ththese institutioional strategies that since 1935 -- but of course before, but i'm choosing 1935 because that was the year when w.e.b. du bois published his germinal black reconstrucon in amererica. and the e question was not, whatat should individual black people do,o, but rather h how to reorganize and restructure post-slavery society in order to guaranantee the incorporation

of those who had been formally enslavede. ththe society could not remain thsasame -- or should not have remained the same. neolibiberalism reresists chae at the individual level. it asks ththe individual to adat to conditionons of capitalism, to conditions of racism. amy: i wanted to ask you, angela davis, about the monumentnts to racist, coloninizers, confederates, that are continuing to fall across the united states and around the world. did you think you would ever see this. you think about bree newsome after the horror at mother emanuel church in charleston, south carolina, who shimmied up that flagpole on the grounds of the south h carolina l legislaturere and d took down the confedererate flag, and ththey put itt riright on back up.

what about what we're s seeing todaday? angela d davis: wellll, of cou, bree newewsome was a wowonderful pipioneer. and i think it's important to link this trend to the campaign in south africa, rhodes must fall. and, of course, i ththink this reflects the extent to which we are e being called upon to deeplply reflect on the role of historical racisms that have brbrought us to the point where we arare tod. you know, racism should have been immediately confronted in the a aftermath of t the end of slavery.y. this is what dr.r. du bois's analysysis was all abou,

not so much in terms of, "well, what we were going to do about these poor people who haveve been enslslaved soso many generatis?" but, rather, "hohow can we reorgaganize our society in order to guarantee the incorporation of previously enslaved people?" now attention is being turned towards the symbols of slavery, the symbols of colonialism. and, of course, any campaigns against racism in this country have to addrdress, in the very first place, the conditions of indigenous people. i think it's important that we're seeing these demonstrations, but i think at the same time we have to recognize that we e cannot simply get rid ofof this hihisty. we have e to recognizeze the devastatingly negatitive role

that that history has played in charting the trajectory of the united states of america. and so, i think that these assaults on statues represent an attempt to begin to think through what we have to do to bring down institutions and re-envision them, reorganize them, createte new institutions that can attenend toto the needs of all people. amy:y: and you talk about racim and capitalism,, you often write and think about how they are intimatelyy connected and talk ababout a world that you envnvi. angelala davis: racism iss integrally linked to capitalism, and i ththink it's a mistake to assume that we can combat racism by leaving capitalism in place.

asas cedric robinson p pointedt in his book "black marxism," capitalism is racial capitalisi. and, of course, to just say for a moment, that mararx pointed out that what he c called primitive accumulation, capital doesn'n't just appear from nowhere. the origiginal capitalasas providided by the labor of slav. the industrial revolution, which pivoted around the production of capital, was enabled by slave labor in the u.s. so, i amam convinced that the ultimate eradication of racism isis going to reququire us to e toward a m more socialistt organization of our economies, of our other institutions. i ththink we have a long way too before we can begin to talk about an economic system ththat is not based on exploitation and on the s super-exploitation of black people,

latinx peoplpland other racialized popopulationsns. but t i do think that we nowow e the conceptual means to engage in discussssion, popular discussions about capitalism. occupied gave us new l languag. the notion of the prisonon-industrial complex requires us to understandd the globalizatation of capitali. anti-capitalist consciousness helps us to undnderstand the prpredicament of immigrant, who are barred from thehe u.s. by the wall that has been created by the current occupant. these conditions h have been created by g global capitalism. and i think this is a period during which we need to begin that process of popular education, which will allow people to understand the interconnections of racism, heteropatriarchy, capitalism.

amy: angela davis, i wanted to ask about another event that has taken place on june 19. the birmingham civil rights institute will finallyly issue the award at a virtual event on juneteenth and i wanted to ask you about this, because you returned to your home town bibirmingham, alabam, after they had rescinded the award for your support of palestinians. after outcry, the institute reversed its decision. more than 3,000 people gathered to see you talk at an alternative event to honor you, which was hosted by the birmingham committee for truth and reconciliation. this is a clip of your comments that day. angela davis: it became clear to me that this might be a teachahable momement, that we might seize this moment to reflect

upon what it means to live on this planet in the 21st century, and our responsibility is not only toto peoee in ourur immediate communityt, but the people all l over the planet.t. amy: we were thehere covering this amazing momoment when the birmingham civil rights institute had rescinded the award to you, went through enormous turmoil. the mayor of birmingham -- and then it was awarded. can you explain the significance? angela davis: : a lot has happpd over the last period, including wiwithin the context of the birmingham civil rights institute. they have completetely reorganized. they have reorganized their board. they have been invnvolved in conversations

with t communityty. of course, a as you know, the mayor of birmingham was s threatening toto withdrw fundining from t institutute. there was a generalized uprising in the black community. and,d, you know, while at t fit it was a total s shock to me thatat they offered this award to me, and then they rescinded itit, i'm realizing now thatat thatat was an important moment, because it encouraged peoplele to think about the meaning of human rights and why is it that p palestinias cocould be exclude from the process of working toward human rigights. palestininian actitivists have l long suppororted black people's struggle against racism. whwhen i was in jail, solidariy coming from m palestine was a major source of courage for me. in ferguson, palestinians were the first

to express international solidarity. and there has been this very important connection between n the twtwo struggles for many decades, so that i'i'goining to be rerey happy to receive the award, which now represents a rethinking of the rather backward position that the institute assumed, that palestininians could be excluded from the circle of those working toward a future of justice, equality and human rights. amy: speaking about what's going on in the west bank right now and about the wholole issuee of interernational solidarity, the global response to the killing of f george f fl. in the occupied west bank, prprotesters denounced floyd's murder

and the recent killing of iyad el-hallak, a 32-year-old palestinian special needs student who was shot to death by israeli forces in occupied east jerusalem. he was reportedly chanting "black lives matter" and "palestitinian lives matter" when i israeli police gunned hm down, claiming he was armed. these links that you're seeing, not only in palestine and the united states, but around the wororld, the kind of global response, the tens of thousands of people who marched in spain, who marched in england, in berlin, in munich, all over the world, as this touches a chord and they make demands in their own countries, not only in solidarity with what's happening in the united states? and then i want to ask you about the u.s. election that's coming up in november. angela davis: yes, palestinian activists have long supported

black people's struggle against racism, as i pointed out. and i'm hoping that today's young activists recognize how important palestinian solidarity has been to the black cause, and that they recognize that we have a profound responsibility to support palalestinian struggles, as well. i think it's also important for us to look in the direction of brazil, whose current political leader competes witith our current political leader in many dangererous ways, i would say. brazil -- if we think we have a problem with racist police violence in the united states of america, look at brazil. marielle franco was assassinated

because she was challenging the militarization of the police and the racist violence unleashed there. i think 4,000 people were killed last year alone by the police in brazil. so, i'm saying this because -- amy: and, of course, the president of brazil, a close ally of president trump. we only have two minuteses, and i want to get to the election. when i intererviewed you in 201, you said you wouldn't support either main-party candidate at the time. what are your thoughtsts today y for 2020? angegela davis: well, my positin really hasn't changed. i'm not going to actually support either of the major candidates, but i do thinknk we have to participate in ththe electio. i mean, that isn't to say that i won''t vote for r the democratic candidate. what i'm saying is that in ourr electoral syststem as it exist,

neither paparty represents the future that we need in this country. both parties remain connected to corporate capitalism. but the election will not so much be aboutut who gets to lead the country to a better future, but rather how we e can support ourselves and our own ability to continunue to organize and placace pressure on those in popower. and i don'n't think there's a question abobout which candidae would allow that process to unfold. so i think that we're going to have to translate some of the passion that has characterized these e demonstrations into work within the electoral arena, recognizing g that the electoral arena is not the best place e for the expresession of radical l polit.

but if we want to continue this work, we certainly need a person in office who will be more amenable toto our m mass pressusure. and to me, that is the only thing that someone like a joe biden represents. but we have to persuade people to go out and vote to guarantee that the current occupant of the white house is forever oustete. amy: the legendary scholar and activist angela davis. if you'd like to see our full interview, go to democracy now.org. that does it for ourur show. dedemocracy now! is produced with renee feltztz, mike burke, deena a guzder, libby raineye, nermeeeen shaikh, mamaria tarac, cacarla wills, tami wororonof, charina a nadura, , sam alcof, tey marie astudillo, john hamililton, robby karran, hany massoud and adriano o contreras. ouour general manager is julie crosby. special thanks to becca staley, miriam barnard, paul powell, mike di fillippo, miguel nogueira, hugh gran,

denis moynihan, david prude and dennis mccormick. please, stay safe, save lives, wear our mask. i'm amy goodman. thanks so much for joining us. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org

♪ thank you for joining us. from our studio in tokyo this is nhk "newsline." we start with japan's latest economic growth figures. gdp for the april to june quarter has been revised downward confirming that the economy shrank at a record pace as the coronavirus impact was bigger than initially estimated. the cabinet office now says the economy shrank at an annu