these vehicles on the road. ♪ c1 anchor: these are the top stories. joe biden is forging ahead with his preparations to take over as president as his margin of victory keeps growing. he has unveiled his top team while pennsylvania and nevada have become the latest states to certify him as the winner. mr. biden: it is a team that will keep our country and people safe and secure. it is a team that reflects the fact that america is back. ready to lead the world, not retreat from it. once again to sit at the head of the table.

. ready to confront our adversaries, and not reject our allies. ready to stand up for our values. the anchor: forces have started to surrender. the government gave the rebels until wednesday to lay down their arms. the leadership denies surrendering. 14 people have been killed by two explosions and a mark -- in a market in central afghanistan. it happened in a city home to them minority. no group has claimed responsibility. the attack happened as the u.n. secretary general called for an immediate and unconditional cease-fire in afghanistan. he spoke to a conference in geneva where nations spell -- pledged $12 billion in aid. italy has reported its highest daily death toll from coronavirus since march. 853 fatalities were confirmed on

tuesday. the health ministry registered more than 23,000 new infections. the aviation industry is reporting larger than expected losses due to the coronavirus pandemic. the international air transport association predicted $100 billion loss by the end of. 2020 it has raised that to $150 billion. the news continues on al jazeera after "inside story." ♪ >> shaping our digital future. china's president says he wants to work with other countries to build a shared a cyberspace community, while europe and the

u.s. argue over privacy rights and taxation of virtual companies. who will win the battle over the future of the internet? this is "inside story." ♪ anchor: hello. welcome to the program. i am bernard smith. china has long been pushing for greater role in global internet governance. now it says it wants to build a common cyberspace community with other countries. president xi jinping says his nation is ready to cooperate on a shared internet infrastructure. china strictly controls the internet and sensors its content. it recently proposed regulations that could restrict the powers of tech companies, and it has been accused by the u.s. of using the internet to pose security threats. the chinese government denies such allegations. president xi laid out his ideas

in a letter read out at the world internet conference, hosted by china. china is ready to work with other countries to grasp the information revolution, foster new driving forces for digital development, and open up new prospects for digital cooperation. efforts will be made to forge a new pattern of cybersecurity and a community of shared future and cyberspace to create an even better future for mankind. last month, the founder of chinese tech giant alibaba criticized government plans to regulate the sector. now, ceo daniel jank says the draft rules are timely and necessary. he told the internet conference supervision allows platform enterprises to not only develop while on their own, but also helps the sustainable and healthy development of the entire society and creates innovation. ♪ bernard: let's bring in our guests.

in beijing, we have a political analyst who advises the chinese government. joining us from washington, d.c. is jody westby, chief executive global cyber risk consultancy. and maximizer is a lector network security of the university of central linkages stir in preston in the united kingdom. welcome to each of you. jody, i will start with you if i may come a government seems to think you can harness the full potential of the economic good while keeping a tight grip on what it wants you to see or not see online. so far, it seems that is right, doesn't it? if you look at how chinese economy is doing. jody: china has been able to do that within its own country quite effectively. the danger is that it wants to expand that out and get this part of the whole global norms in the internet and change the basis of internet governance that is in place now. bernard: do you think china can

impose its model of how it regulates the internet on the rest of the world? is not what the rest of the world needs and wants? >> no, i would disagree with the jody. what they are trying to do is back in 2013, they started this idea of a sovereign internet. people were wondering what it is. asked -- as we see today with the election interference, all sorts of problems with social media, i think countries are already moving in the direction of saying that they have to have some measure of control over it. it is not this free and open highway which is going to bring enlightenment to everybody. . actually it is bringing a lot of conspiracy theories. there is no way china can pose that. what they are saying is there should be some sort of structure and system, in essence come -- in essence, to regulate how they interact and how the digital economy is going to work. bernard: next, china suggesting some sort of structure to how the internet is globally run.

. is the chinese model the one that the rest of the world might be persuaded by? max: an is an interesting proposal. like your other two guests have agreed, in order to combat phenomenons like fake news or election interference or things like that, structure will be needed. however, the chinese proposal, i'm not quite sure, where that actually be accepted by every nation around the globe. because striking the balance between restructuring and combating these phenomenons, and coming you know, freedom of speech, privacy, and staying safe online, all of this needs to be really considered very carefully before giving this restructure. bernard: jody, china is the only major power that has come up with some sort of a suggestion. european union, the americans

are fighting about taxation, privacy issues. china is stepping into a void here that needs filling. jody: china and russia have been working very effectively, especially at the united nations level. china has been making some strides towards goals that it wants to put in place. it uses the right terminology. it uses internet governance. it uses protection of expression. but that is what their term is, and their definition is. the part of the problem has been that the united states has really not shown the leadership for the last decade that it should have been showing and multilateral forums to really be leading, globally, on cybersecurity, cybercrime, and these issues. and it has opened the door for china and russia to play a more prominent role in the united nations. and to align other countries in

africa, asia, african-american -- asia, and others. where we used to be able to have people with the united states in positions, that has splintered off. it puts the western countries and the democratic countries at a disadvantage. bernard: china is seizing the initiative here, isn't it, and seeing an opportunity to mold internet governance into how it believes it should be while the u.s. and europe squabble over other issues. >> that is an issue, you cannot say somebody creates a vacuum and no one is supposed to go in there. the fact is that the digital economy is going ahead, whether or not the u.s. is interested or not. china has already done a lot with its cyber -- cyber currency, they are ahead on 5g, and a lot of different areas. the only thing that donald trump can come up with was to somehow contain china. in essence, trip it up,

preventing it from getting too far ahead. i think that is where biden will be different. he says he wants to compete and basically compete at the top rather than at the bottom. this idea that somehow, the west, or if saying the u.s. should control the cyber spear is as silly as saying china can control it. into something that belongs to the world. each country has to decide what the balance is, as max said. what is the correct balance for that particular country? it is not going to be a one-size-fits-all. sometimes, that is what the u.s. is expecting other countries to do. the idea that there is only one ideology, one kind of economic, one kind of internet everyone should abide by. the fact is that that is not going to work. bernard: should the u.s. and the europeans be trying to come up with something similar to what china is offering, or working

with china on this? the u.s. and europe are not the only countries with a similar sort of democratic background. there is japan, there is india. what should those countries be doing? max: i think the invitation, you know, what china has come up with, is, you know, from an economic point of view at least, we see that as a positive step forward to bring nations to work together in order to find a solution that will guarantee what we call, if we use the same term, internet governance. these nations we are talking about, you just mentioned japan, european union, the u.s. they are all in the top powers in terms of cyber capabilities and intent. working with china is inevitable at some point to actually bring these nations together. for us, in academia, bringing the research communities, do

more collaborations with chinese universities and academics. to combat the rise of cyber attacks, cybercrimes, all over the internet. i think working together is the solution going forward. but as your guests were saying, the balance, the model, the trust issues, they need to be addressed before we move forward in that direction. bernard: is there a need to agree common digital rules? and if as you say the u.s. has taken its eye off the ball, what should it be doing in response to china's proposals? jody: the most important thing it should be doing is really actively engaging in the united nations. we can talk about countries talking among themselves and agreeing. but the fact is that the united nations is 192 countries, it is comprised of an international body that does set regulations for communications and standards. and that is where china has been able to worm its way in.

and through the international telecommunications union, where it has held high leadership positions. the united states needs to get involved at the general assembly and the itu and the standard-setting bodies, and the regulatory efforts far more than it needs to engage more than it has. and to bring allies along. the allies, as you can see with huawei. we are reluctant to side with the u.s. on banning huawei's 5g technology. why? because they were afraid donald trump would do a side deal and leave them hanging with whatever they had come into initially with the united states. that will change under joe biden. we will get better alliance with our countries, are democratic institutions. i think we will not have that splintering. we will start regaining some cohesiveness. however, that is going to depend on whether the biden

administration puts people in place in these institutions that can provide leadership globally. bernard: ok. nobody disputes that there are dark, unpleasant corners of the internet. it would be some effort to do something about it. but isn't the uninhibited exchange of views and ideas, doesn't that lead to innovation and development? as soon as people are careful about what they say online, you stifle that, don't you? >> i think there is a difference between discussing possibilities and saying, you know, the movie theater is on fire in a packed house. there obviously has to be some limits. otherwise you are having what you have now, which is this unmitigated disaster where people are saying fake news, they think they are entitled to their own facts. to address what jody was saying, i strongly disagree. calling china names and things like that and saying that the problem is that the allies did

not join the ring around the rosie and containing china is nonsense. the issue was what were the factual basis? you had a countries independently through their own security entities saying look, there is no problem here, and to the extent there is a problem, we can contain it. there was political pressure put on. i don't think that has anything to do with this idea of technical compliance or real dangers. this is simply a move by the u.s., through donald trump, to contain a country, china, which was getting ahead of it. i think this credible hubris that is shown here that only advanced things should be developed in western nations, and western nations should set all of the rules for the rest of these people, it is racist. quite frankly. bernard: before i let jody come back in on this, let me say this. the issue is the way that china views how the internet should work is completely at odds with the way the liberal democracies

of the world view the internet, and the challenge of bringing those two together is insurmountable, i would imagine. it is a totally different way of thinking. >> yes, it is. quite frankly, china is going to have to toughen up its skin. it cannot expect to be a world player and shut itself off. so it is going to have to be willing to open up things like that. that does not mean there should not be standards and people should not be working together. i would agree with max. it is a question of bringing everyone to the table. not somebody sitting from outside the ring throwing inbounds because they chose not to be involved. bernard: you can't obviously ignore china. i will let you come back on what he said. there needs to be some sort of common approach, does they're not, to the future of the internet? jody: there is. the cybercrime convention that has been signed by 65 countries, so we have some progress being made in countering cybercrime.

but you also have to consider cyber conflict. china does have an advantage. these monopoly countries that authoritarian regimes have controlled all of the communications. they have an advantage. they control all of their communications. and china has been trying to do its own internal internet. that means it would have stability when the united states or other countries might not have access to the internet, if it was completely disrupted. in cyber conflict, there is a huge need for everyone to be on the same page. in cybercrime, there has to be everyone on the same page or no one is secure. trying to fracture this out to china's worldview versus how the internet has developed is just not going to be productive for everyone that is connected and using this wonderful platform. bernard: can i ask you about -- there was a report produced on foreign relations that came up, this idea of a digital trade

zone, complete with a treaty organization. and members who want to join the trade zone would have to abide by the treaty rules. and there would be a mechanism for sanctioning those members if they did not agree with the rules. do we need something like that? max: i think something like that, from an international point of view, an international effort to standardize the operations and how the internet is governed and all of these things. internationally. and i would agree with jody. about the other nations working within the u.n. framework, and the, for example, to bring the treaty like this for example, to an international level where there will be a governance. at the end of the day, politics is not really my area really.

but from a technical point of view, i see this every day in the news where there is a bit of tension between the big players, between china, the u.s., european nations. like i said before, these are very powerful nations in terms of their cyber capabilities. and china and the u.s. are actually in a two net in the name -- the latest cyber index. it is very hard to ignore the importance of china as an international player. at the same time, trying to bring these nations together into a treaty that is governed within the u.n. framework, that could be a first step. as i said, building trust among international partners will be very good step in the right direction. because there is a lot of accusations. there is a lot a finger-pointing in the news by security experts that there is a lot of cyber attacks or hacking attempts. that are sponsored by states

like china, like russia or even other nations. this is problem because you can't really cooperate -- operate a treaty or start collaborations in an atmosphere where there is a lot of accusation, finger-pointing. again, as i said, the trust is going to be essential. bernard: what about a digital trade zone, complete with a treaty and members who can be sanctioned if they do not -- if they are wayward? is that a way forward? >> i do think so. there has to be some sort of collaboration on this. otherwise you will see a breakdown in these internets and this kind of world shattering view that is being put forward by my colleague. the u.s. spends over half of the $1.8 trillion annually on defense, a large part of that goes to cybersecurity, espionage, counterespionage, etc. the issue here, and i would

agree with max, it is about bringing people to the table. jody pointed out, the u.s. has been absent. do nothing that is china's fault. or is it europe's fault. they -- everybody has to get at the table and they have to put something together. as we have seen with the recent signing of our cep, china is not adverse to sitting down with whomever, even though they are at odds with australia, indio. they still said look, the door is open. this idea that china is adverse to sitting down in a multi-literal institution is incorrect. it is the other way. it is the u.s. who has been going it alone and making it difficult to have any international framework. bernard: what about some sort of digital trade zone? there was another idea, another group of think tanks came up with a technology alliance. no formal treaty, but like the g7 who holds regular meetings. jody: we can talk about a digital trade zone because all companies -- all countries are

i.t. countries. everybody is digital. where do you draw the line and say, this is the digital zone versus every other industry that uses i.t. to support its operations? we have never ratified the law. thinking you are going -- the countries around the world, there are about 230 countries and territories connected to the internet. to think out -- to think we will get everyone to agree to a treaty is nonsense. we will have 10 years of talking. look at how long it has taken the european convention on cybercrime. it has taken a long time to get 65 countries to sign up to that. we have a wto for trade issues. we have the united nations. we have the laws of foreign conflict. we need to use these institutions, the structures, and these legal frameworks i can be adapted to cyber. we have adapted them for other technological progress. for example, for navies when ships were built, for air force

when planes, we now have space. when we talked about dangerous landmines and other special things that were banned in the laws of armed conflict. we have been able to take the structures that are proven and lasting. and i think it is far better for countries to work within those frameworks, and to accommodate the use of the internet in a global fashion. bernard: ok. i wanted to ask you about this change in the approach that the chinese government has to its tech sector, which used to be relaxed. but now, the state administration for market regulation is proposing to prevent platforms from dominating the market. why now are they moving against those very powerful organizations in china? powerful companies, rather. >> i think something very instructive is jack ma. he decided a few days before the largest ipo in world history that he wanted to make fun of the chinese government.

but there was an underlying part of that. with china's coming forward with its digital economy, with this digital you want, things are going to change dramatically. there was a feeling that jack ma was timing his ipo prior to this. because there will be profound changes when you do have a digital currency that is actually working in one of the world's largest trade entities, trade relations, number one trade relations with 120 countries around the world. there is a feeling that they did not want jack ma to cash in on something he could deliver. also, i think people are looking into what is happening with facebook and a lot of these big monopolies. china created their own, obviously, tencent and alibaba are huge. there is this feeling that you do not want to concentrate that much power in these entities because they are now ruling not

so much by innovation, but a lot just by sheer market size. that is one of the problems with the market economy. unfortunately, they do lead towards monopolies if they are in fact left unchecked. china has the same problem as the u.s. and also europe. they have to make sure that the sizing of these things does not allow unfair competition to arise. bernard: has china talked of bough taking a look at microsoft and apple and amazon, alphabet, and seeing how they have dominated over there, and decided that it is not the way they want to go? should go? max: yeah, i think you are right. i think china, they are seeing what is going on in europe and the u.s., about how these giant techs are dominating the market, paying less taxes than they should. facebook has become a giant. we saw mark zuckerberg in the

congress giving evidence. if you think about it, it is supposed to be a social media network that is connecting people together. but when we went from that nice idea about social connections and relationships, to influencing elections and using that for fake news in all of these things. i think not just china, in think every country, they don't want someone to be as giant -- to spiral out of control. it will be very difficult to actually intervene when it is needed because it is not just about the digital market or the trade. it is also about the social impact, this could impact people's lives in people's welfare. yeah, i think china is kind of looking at this and saying, we don't want that to happen to us. bernard: ok. unfortunately, we are out of time. we have so much more to talk about.

but thank you to jody west, and max iser. and thank you too for watching. you can see the program any time by visiting our website. and for more debate, go to our facebook page. that is facebook.com/aji nsidestory. you can join the conversation on twitter. for me and the whole team here, goodbye. ♪

sonoko sakai: well, i grew up in a very small town called kamakura, which iabout an hour outside of tokyo. and so i was immersed in the old world, old japan, very artisinal, without even knowing what that word is. they have this craftsmanship. that was the way people lived. you had to know how to work with your hands. and it was an awakening for me as a young child looking at the craftsman's work.