calling -- fighting in northern mozambique displaces thousands. this is "inside story." ♪ imran: hello and welcome to the program. i am imran khan. fighting in northern mozambique is worsening a humanitarian crisis. the military is struggling to hold back isil groups in the

cabo delgado region. fighters have been accused of indiscriminate killings and burning villages. mozambique governments have asked for help. the u.n. says at least 400,000 people have been displaced. . many are living in camps with little food and water. >> we are not animals. animals sleep in the sand. we have spent three to four months sleeping on the floor, on the cement. we are getting sick. >> there's a lot of hunger here. in three camps, we are hungry. tell people that the communities are hungry. don't be surprised if you see people dying of hunger. a bag of 50 kilograms of food for 30 days is nothing. >> clearly, access to food, clean water is key.

access to shelter, access to household items, these are important and regularly requested. imran: the attacks in northern mozambique started in 2070. more than 2200 people have been killed. dozens were beheaded. fighters have increased violence and seized a major port near a $60 billion gas project. one of the main groups active, al-shabaab, no relation to the group in somalia. the army is supported by private military groups in russia and south africa, and their sphere the security crisis could spill into neighboring countries -- there is fear the security crisis could spill into neighboring countries.let's bring our guests from mozambique . we have journalist fernando lima. angele dikongue-atangana is the

united nations high commissioner for refugees deputy director for southern africa. and also is adriano nuvunga, director at the center for democracy and development. welcome to you all. i would like to begin, the united nations is already in crisis. it is having crisis all over the world. there is a funding crisis. you are just not going to get the money you need to deal with any escalation. am i right? >> thank you very much for that question. we indeed, in a situation where we have multiple crises in the world. the one in the northern part of mozambique -- as you may know, until the beginning of this ongoing crisis, especially the beginning of this year,

mozambique was in a situation of -- for more than close to 30,000 refugees and asylum seekers we have in the country. a camp that has some 9500 in the province. with the internal displacement crisis increased, we have had to plconsider, from the beginning f this year when we only had two members in call bulldog auto -- cabo delgado, from january 2021, we will have some 26 staff

members positioned in cabo delgado. some 400,220 idp's as we have agreed to that number. this is calling for great attention. this is a huge protection crisis . with so many protection issues around, which our organization, we have established protection within the intelligence framework and we are the lead of that. when i talk of protection, it's things like ensuring that these people have -- can continue to enjoy -- imran: but you are about to face a bigger crisis.

if the mozambique government get their way and international community response and helps in the fight against isil, and it is a fight like the one in iraq against isil, you are going to have more refugees on your hand then you can currently ever hope to cope with. you are pointing out all of these people in place, but they are dealing with the current crisis, not the one that is going to come if there is significant escalation. >> i guess you want me to speak about the ramping up. i want to tell you that we have won an appeal. in that regard, we are happy to say that the united states has really come to our aid to ramp

up capacity in northern mozambique. we are happy to also report other institutions including the eu, japan as a country, and others are demonstrating support. therefore, in 2021, we are confident we will have adequate means to catch up to the protection needs of the population. imran: let's bring -- bring in adriano nuvunga. you are at the death -- the deputy at the macro see center and development. why is this situation coming to a head now? >> indeed. there is an important -- there's

a great deal of failure and the government. we start with the early warning signs that something terrible was cooking. that's a failure of government. on the other hand, the defenses that have let all that has catalyzed for this conflict to erect, the result or failure of governance, particularly in the issue of benefiting democracy, but also importantly benefits from the resources, not only gas development, but also mineral

and other projects that are benefiting the elite. neglect is one of the keys and that speaks of, failure of government. within this, there's also an issue of how capacity is utilized to mean -- meaningfully respond to the crisis. here, we definitely see a failure of government not only in terms of the institutional elite, between the police, but also how government is steering stakeholders. imran: fernando lima, how do all

of these perhaps disparate groups, groups leaks -- linked to isil, how are they able to come together? is it neglect or is it something a bit more deep? >> i am in line with what andreano said previously, the government did not take seriously these threats. finally, they are talking about these international conspiracy, the islamic state is a big threat not only in cabo delgado but other areas of the country. i see their reason why the situation is like that from a humanitarian point of view and from the military point of view is related to the fact that in three years, the whole situation

of violence and attacks against civilian targets have not been taken seriously. that is why now you have appeals on the humanitarian front, and also on military grounds to have further support to fight the war in this specific case in cabo delgado. imran: there is an ace card that the mozambique government had, that is the $60 billion gas project. they are going to want to protect that. the international community wants to protect that. are they using that to try and get this international community to help militarily? >> i think this is the idea. not only, in order to address that particular issue, talking about figures here, it also needs -- the

government needs to have clarity on what they expect in terms of international community support. if, in terms of humanitarian aid, this is a much more easy to handle the situation on the military side and security side is much more difficult. for example, within the military apparatus, there's always this strong sense of if you have an international support, you will lose part of your sovereignty and this is not an easy-going matter. you need to overcome these different hurdles and difficulties, even theoretical issues among government and the security apparatus in order to have the international community

help mozambique. imran: we heard fernando talk about this $60 billion gas project being one of the things that might get international community involved. but if that happens, mozambique might lose some of its sovereignty. do you have any sympathy with that argument? >> well, as i have said in my earlier intervention, no doubt that where mozambique sits today , it is part ofit was resource e production started. the way the response or the government has moved, government

has moved from a militaristic intervention to a more socioeconomic interface, but not much has happened in the ground. when it comes to their relationship of the government, with the international community , this is problematic in many ways. in terms of security, we clearly see remove towards -- we see international companies building huge walls to protect the premises. this is wrong. this is not the right approach to go into the nexus between

business and security and also human rights in that area. this is going to further escalate the animosity or their communities international place in the ground. government is not making the right move, because the government seems to be preferring to use its state capacity to protect international premises rather than -- and a framework where intervention can help to build capacity in order to tackle the key root causes that have led to the situation.

so the government is reluctant to have international boots on the ground, but the way things are moving, we will see in the near future because there is escalation, government is not setting things right in terms of steering the different players. imran: let's talk about mozambique's neighbors in south africa, there is a burgeoning movement of people who are simply xenophobic to mozambique refugees and they want them out of the country. south africa has absorbed a fair amount of refugees. if those people come back to mozambique to a dangerous situation, again you have yet another dangerous problem on your hands. >> if i should be allowed to talk to -- to speak to the

issues around the crisis in couple dug out of, i would -- cabo delgado, i would say that to the best of our knowledge, there has been no meaningful outflow from the current crisis in cabo delgado. from what we are aware of, there has been about 1000 persons who have gone to southern tanzania. these people unfortunately have been somewhat pushed back to mozambique. we are aware that about 833 people have been pushed back to northern mozambique. and these people, as i'm speaking to you, are in the

process of speaking to those persons to understand what really happened to them from the moment they fled from mozambique and the moment they were brought back to the place they fled in the first place. we have monitored the situation and thinking that if it were to be confirmed, this would be tantamount to the cornerstone of -- it is for me, every single order to push back or to send back persons to a place where their life would be in danger. and this is what may have happened. in regards to south africa as a country, we are not aware of new flight of mozambiqueans to south

africa. if it were to be the case, we would not only ensure -- work with the authorities and government of south africa to see that those who fled the crisis would be finding international protection if they would show up into south africa, and may be to also conclude, i would like to say that in regards to the international computer t -- community, i've heard about the inability of the

government of mozambique to face the situation. i just want to draw a parallel with the situation happening ongoing in nigeria. today, we know this is the situation that has engulfed four countries. all of these countries had to be completely sinking into the terrorist situation ongoing ever since 2009. our warning is that if the international community, do not feel this situation is of concern to them, then they may

find themselves -- imran: let's put that point -- let's put that point to the other guests. angela is saying that if you don't deal with the situation, both in a socioeconomic way and military way to handle the refugee crisis, mozambique could sink into a state which doesn't have any loss, and could sink other states. do you agree? >> i think geographically, this is a possibility.that is why you need to tackle the situation now. despite, one would agree that we should have addressed this issue, for example, in 2017, still three years later, we are still handling a situation and there is not control. still, i think there is a

possibility you can have security issues to be dealt with with the support of the international community, because it is quite clear at this point that the mozambique government by itself is not able to address this issue, and at the same time to deal with the humanitarian crisis. imran: sorry, ananda, we are running out of -- fernando, we are running out of time and i would like to go to the other guests. is there potential for the islamic state to declare a state within was a big -- mozambique, within cabo delgado, and other regions around it? >> the districts have fallen to

the hands of insurgents since august this year, and the government has been incapable of repealing that. this is problematic from the theoretical point of view when government is unable to claim control of some of its territory. with this said, it seems that government has succeeded in preventing occupation. i think we are running a little late there is still time, opportunity for government to get things right and get the proper international support of the community, because without the support of the community, it

can be problematic for mozambique on its own to reveal the ever-growing problem in the area. imran: i want to thank all of our guests, fernando lima, angele dikongue-atangana, and adriano nuvunga, and i want to thank you. you can see the program at any time by visiting our website, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are. from me imran khan and the whole team, good night.

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