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help locate leaders of the test offering a reward to help locate leaders of the tigre region ruling party. that fiancee of jamal khashoggi has called on president-elect joe biden to release the cia classified report into the murder of the journalist, once he takes office. she says the move would greatly assist finding out the truth. jamal khashoggi was murdered in the saudi arabia consulate in 2018. that european union chief negotiator says the last attempt effort is underway to try to negotiate with that united kingdom before the end of the are deadline passes. the u.k. and a you have two weeks to seal a deal on their future relationship, including an all-important trade deal. more news for you here. after today's inside story, next. ♪

>> the u.s. government is under unprecedented cyberattack. topped apartments say they have been hacked. russia denies this behind the campaign, but what does it mean for america's national security, and how will washington respond? this is "inside story." ♪ how low and welcome to the program. -- hello and welcome to the program. u.s. government agencies move to tighten security after being hit by a hacking operation, the worst in history. the u.s. energy, defense, and

state and homeland secretive departments have been attacked. microsoft confirmed it has been affected by the ongoing cyberattack. the hacking operation was uncovered last week but investigators believe it has been going on for months. u.s. officials expect it was carried out by russian hackers and warned the grave risk it poses to government and private networks. the cybersecurity agency says it will be hard to undo the damage done to what it describes as critical infrastructure of federal departments. president donald trump has remained silent on the matter. president-elect joe biden vowed to deal with the breach as soon as he takes office asked month. russia rejected accusations it is behind the cyberattack, with the kremlin spokesman running americans not to blame the russians for everything. during his annual news conference, president putin did not elaborate on the recent hack but reiterated russia never interfered with u.s. internal affairs. >> the russian hackers did not

help get the incumbent president elected and did not interfere into the internal affairs of this great power. these are all hoaxes and pretexts to worsen the relations between russia and the united states. >> in recent years, the united states has repeatedly accused russian intelligence of launching cyber attacks on international institutions. an investigation in the 1990's pointed the finger at moscow for hacking government agencies including moscow and the pentagon. dubbed about moonlight maze attack, officials say if all the documents were piled up, it would be three times the height of the washington mind met, the breach was so enormous. but the cia and fbi say the russian hackers gained democratic party computers and gained access to computers in a bid to help donald trump defeat hillary clinton in the election. since that russian has been accused of disrupting elections and other countries, encoding fillon, germany, and the u.k..

the kremlin dismisses the accusations calling them groundless and wechat. -- and a witchhunt. i am joined by our guests in washington, d.c. one from the computer crime committee. at another specialist on russian foreign affairs and political analyst at the russia academy of sciences. and the director of the center for national security at the fordham university school of law , hosted the vital interest podcast. jodi, let me start with you. how grave threat is this attacked the united states federal government? and how was it accomplished? >> i think the threat is the reddest we have seen so far. so it is at the highest level. the attack was accomplished by compromising the software signature process for solar

winds, their orion software and malware was sent out through solar winds as a software update. it want to 18,000 government and public sector entities. and private sector companies. so, 18,000 organizations globally, but have downloaded this al-wair in this -- this malware in the software update. >> how is this attacked different from previous attacks -- previous hacks? >> two underscore what jodi said-- to underscore what jodi said, the scope is vast. it affects agencies across the government in a way that we have not seen before. also, it has affected the private sector as well. let me underscore something else. we actually do not know how vast this is yet. this is just the beginning of

the forensic investigation of this. in its vastness, its scope, and its direct attack on government agencies, it is much different than anything we have seen before. >> vladimir, from your advantage point, what is your response? what do you make of the accusations? that russia was behind this attack? >> actually, no, this is nothing new, in these accusations. because as far as i'm concerned, i remember that almost two years ago, from now, these accusations appeared in the press and on the behalf of the united states, that russian hackers were hacking u.s. governmental institutions and organizations. i do not think that there is a special purpose for russian government, to hack american governmental computer systems. even with the latest cutting edge software.

and i do not think these accusations are actually true. because this is neil politics, actually. -- neo politics, just to press on russia, because russia is under sanctions. this is really a process of the new cold war when the two parties are actually accusing each other of intruding into one's other internal affairs. so i don't think this accusation, to cut a long story short, are really taking place. >> jodi, in the past few years, the u.s. government has spent tens of billions of dollars, on cyber offensive abilities. it is astounding that this attack was able to go undetected, as long as it did, isn't it? >> it is a very, very sophisticated attack. and, so that is one of the reasons that it is indicated as a nationstate attack.

it was highly sophisticated, once that malware entered the system. it sat dormant for a couple of weeks. at hat that capabilities at the core access, -- it had capabilities at the core access because it was network monitoring software. therefore, it could turn off settings, turn on settings, create credentials. it can do a lot of things. it was storing some of its data, some of its activities, inside the actual software files, so it was less likely to be detected. so it operated in quite a high stealth mode. and also in a way that was very difficult to detect. and it will be difficult to eradicate. >> karen, you heard jodi talk about the type of al-wair used , and-- malware how difficult it was to the attack --to detect. it is also about the backdoors

in the systems by which these hackers may continue to be able to access the systems for, who knows how long, right? >> that's right. avon if they stop what they can detect now, what to -- even if they stop what they could detect now, what do they do about what is already there and inside the system. so that is incredibly concerning. four years and the past couple of years, cybersecurity experts inside and outside government, have been calling for wrapping up defensive strategies -- ramping up defensive strategies for cyber, and talking about the vulnerability writ large of not having mechanisms in place, reporting systems in place. so this is a warning sign of just where our vulnerabilities are, and what defenses we have let slide, in recent years. so it is one thing, trying to address this particular attack and its scope. it is another, thinking about how to prevent anything like this happening in the near or

far term. >> vladimir, what happens going forward with the u.s.-russian relationship? you have a new administration coming in. you have now, these accusations that russia is behind this massive, massive hack on the u.s. government and private enterprise in the u.s.. where does it take things? >> uhh, well, actually, first, levy asked my esteemed colleagues from the united states, just one small question. for what purpose, for what purpose russian hackers are russian government needs to happen hacking the u.s. computer systems for the consecutive almost two years or even more? so what is the purpose? because at the same time, russia can accuse the united states of hacking the russian sensitivity organizations and security agencies computer systems. so what is the purpose of all of that?

who are actually the winner of all of these arguments actually? and the regarding, regarding the future relations, from the new administration of president elect, mr. joseph biden. i do not think that there will be much change in the bilateral relations between the united states and the russian federation, because the mistrust and the years of animosity, especially after the ukraine events, have been doing their bad thing. and these accusations of hacker attacks, these are another story that made its contributions, to the worsening of the overall

relationship, between the united states and america. almost every day, we heard here in moscow, and in international mass media, that there is one story or another story, in the united states, which is [indiscernible] that russia is behind that russia is behind this, who actually the winner of this? we need good relations and president putin set we need just to maintain normal, stable, and working relationship with the united states, especially with the new administration of president joseph biden. so i do not think that biden will actually deviate from these accusations, in the near future, this is my point. >> jodi, president trump has been silent on all this, thus far. his silence about an organized attack on the u.s. government,

this really is just the latest example of trump's lockton's to criticize russia, isn't it? this is just, at the end of the day, going to raise more questions about present drugs -- president trump's deference to russia. >> it does. russia has been emboldened during the four years of the trump administration because, frankly, mr. putin has played him a well. -- played him very well. so, while putin has been able to take advantage of the u.s. during these four years, i do think that will change with the biden administration. and, as karen said, we do not know the extent of the attacks. and as more and more is uncovered, there will certainly be more, additional thought within the diplomatic community, about how to respond to this. because, it really is, and has been, and ongoing aggression, from 2014, 2015 2016, with the

advanced persistent threat, group 28 and outgroup 29, that these people have been attacking the systems of the united states , public and private sector, four years. -- for years. this is quite aggressive cyber activity that sibley has to stop. -- that simply has to stop. >> karen, i want to see if you want to add to it jodi is saying. president elect is pledging to make cybersecurity a priority for his incoming administration, and talking about how adversaries will incur substantial costs for attacks such as this going for. what kind of costs would those be? >> yes, well, that is why it is such a precarious situation, in terms of, not just assigning blame, but understanding what the attack was. we live in a limbo, between

cyber tensions, cyber conflict, and cyber war. the question is, if this is as vast as it was, what kind of act of aggression was this? therefore, what kind of response will it take? this is what is facing biden, in terms of what he does decide to do. understand that under president obama, there was a directive and a number of programs that talked about unity of government efforts to address cyber attacks. so-and i think some of that paradigm attic structure -- paradigm structure will be returned to by the biden administration. things have changed in the interim, but there will be, i would expect, the a very injured response in trying not to escalate this further, but -- a very measured response, to not escalate this further. but whether that is it in the form of sanctions or diplomatic arrangements, whether in the

form of something else, we will see. there is going to have to be a response to this. the question is, how measured canopy? >> -- how measured can that be? >> there are those who call this attack cyber conflict, that it goes beyond hacking. what do you say? this kind of attack, is this a different type of warfare? is this cyber conflict or merely a pack? -- a hack? >> actually, let me turn around this question from other point of view. we say, here in russia, the cybersecurity is a field of potential, a field of usual cooperation, between the united states and russian federation, in the near future, because despite the accusations of russian hackers attacking u.s. entities, there might be -

actually taking place, hacking attacks from radical islamists and terrorist groupings, which is more serious for both countries and for all countries of the world. but, answering directly to the point of your question, i would say, this is a cyber conflict. unfortunately, note cybersecurity cooperation is undertaking now, is taking place now. this is a cyber conflict, not merely a diplomatic conflict. the problem for us, as the two great powers of the world, is how to overcome this difficult time, when we are accusing each other of cyber attacking. and we are in the middle of a cyber conflict. and how to proceed, to maintaining the relations of cybersecurity, on the diplomatic

front, on the political front, and any other computer security, cybersecurity, and any other front. this is the real task for future administration in the united states and for future government and the russian federation. >> jodi, is it more likely, with the incoming biden administration, that we would see retaliation in cyberspace to this attack? or, with the response of the usb more likely -- or, what the response of the u.s. be more likely the imposition of sanctions, or a combination of both? >> i do not see us launching a cyber attack against russia in retaliation. but i do see as perhaps wrapping up -- ramping up, perhaps finally providing greater leadership in the multinational fora, the united nations and other organizations we participate in, to finally start

working on some norms and rules for how countries will use the internet and communication networks. so, i see the response, there could be sanctions. that could be part of it. but there will be at, i think, a greater diplomatic response in this area -- that there will be, i think, a greater diplomatic response in this area. it has certainly been lacking on the part of the united states. we will see that improved, especially the king at rules and norms in the united nations, and -- especially looking at rules and norms in the united nations and trying to elevate that at international level. >> karen, do you think the u.s. government is so far playing down the severity of this attack? >> it depends on what you mean by the u.s. government. there are so many voices now. i think yes, the white house is playing it down. i think every day we find out another agency that has been

compromised. so we can assume it is government wide, particularly in the national security agency's. i think there is -- agencies. we do not know to what extent this was espionage, to what extent this was stealing information, to what extent we can recoup some of the defenses that should have been in place. to cause panic may not be the best idea and i think there has to be a sense of what happened, before the administration, either one, is going to come out with any full explanation or accusation or anything along those lines, including a response. >> vladimira, you said earlier you think -- you believe a lot of this is political spectacle and is being politicized. why do you believe that? >> look what is going right now and why it is going, and especially very acute right now.

because this is december, you know. incoming u.s. administration. and this topic of the hacking, allegedly on behalf of russian federation, is very much [indiscernible] because there is a strong pressure, i truly believe that, from certain political and military circles, the united states, on the new administration, not to be a very minor with russia. to press on -- not to be mild with russia, to press on russia. to continue to pressure russia in the future. and the policy of more sanctions from the western partners of russian federation is just proving that. so i think this is actually the theme which proves that the very much topic of hacking attacks

are politicized, and this is near-again i am reiterating, this is amir policy -- this is a mere policy, than the actual cyber warfare. just not to contradict into my previous statement. cyber conflict. but, which is very much politicized. >> jodi, is there any indication out there this could have been carried out by any country other than russia, at this point in time? >> know, at this point in time i think everybody is quite confidence that forensic evidence is showing that this was a russian nationstate backed attack. and is from the same group, actually, this is not new. this began with moonlight maze attacks in 1999. and there have been numerous attacks since then, by this same kind of russian intelligence backed groups. so this is something that is not

a new occurrence. but this is the most serious occurrence. and certainly in light of what happened in 2015 ford, -- forward, it has escalated to a point that is dimly unacceptable and has to be stopped. >> karen, in 2018, the white house eliminated the cybersecurity coordinator role. steps like this, taken by the white house, is this one of the reasons the u.s. is in the state it is in now? that it can be so vulnerable to an attack of this sort? >> it did not help. nor does it help that there has been such a sense of musical chairs inside many of the agencies. and many of the agencies are on the national security forefront. we have had repeated director of national intelligence. we have had turnover at the highest levels throughout the government. we have the head of the cybersecurity and infrastructure

security agency fired, over his disagreement with president trump over the election. so, and a way, there is two things. one, too much vacancy. two, related, lack of continuity, in terms of message coming from the past to the present. so, this is another problem. i also want to say, on the point of timing, this is not good timing. i do not think it is good timing from anybody's point of view in the united states. this is a time of pandemic, a time of transition. the idea that this is politically useful, i am not sure how that would actually play out in the political scene. but i think this is more a sense of being distracted i other things in this country, and other countries taking advantage of it. >> all right, we have run out of time. thank you so much to our guests. jodi, bladder, and karen.

and josh jodi, -- thank you to our guests, jodi, vladimir, and karen. you can join the conversation on twitter. @ajinsidestory. for me and the whole team here, goodbye for now. ♪

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