amy: from new york, this is democracy now! prof. davis: i have never experienced anything like the conditions we are currently experiencing, the conjuncture created by the covid-19 pandemic and the recognition of the systemic racism that has been rendered visible under these conditions because of the disproportionate deaths in black and latinx communities.

this is a moment i don't know i ever expected to experience. amy: in this democracy now! special, we look back at the historic uprising against police brutality and racism following the police killing of george floyd in minneapolis amid the covid-19 pandemic. we'll speak to professors and activists angela davis, keeanga-yamahtta taylor, and cornel west. prof. west: the catalyst was certainly brother george floyd's public lynching, but the failures of the predatory capitalist economy to provide the satisfaction of the basic needs of food and healthcare and quality education, jobs with a decent wage, at the same time the collapse of your political class, the collapse of your professional class. their legitima has been radically called into question, and that's multiracial. amy: we will speak to antiracist activist bree newsome bass and princeton university professor eddie glaude about the election of joe

biden and kamala harris. prof. glaude: we have to get about the work of responding to the problems we face as a nation at scale, and not returninback to some sense of normalcy, which in some ways laid the foundation for the disaster that was and is trumpism. amy: all that and more coming up. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the quarantine report. i am amy goodman. we begin today's special looking back at the uprising against police brutality and racism, following the police killing of george floyd in minneapolis on may 25th. the protests helped shift public opinion on policing and systemic racism with "defund the police" becoming a rallying cry of the movement. well, for more on the historic protests, we turn to the legendary activist and scholar angela davis, professor emerita at the university of california,

santa cruz. for half a century, angela davis has been one of the most influential activists and intellectuals in the united states and an icon of the black liberation movement. i interviewed her in early june and asked her if she thought this moment is truly a turning point. prof. davis: this is an extraordinary moment. i have never experienced anything like the conditions we are currently experiencing, the conjuncture created by the covid-19 pandemic and the recognition of the systemic racism that has been rendered visible under these conditions because of the disproportionate deaths in black and latinx communities. and this is a moment i don't know whether i ever expected to experience. when the protests began, of course, around the murder of george floyd and breonna taylor

and ahmaud arbery and tony mcdade and many others who have lost their lives to racist state violence and vigilante violence -- when these protests erupted, i remembered something that i've said many times to encourage activists who often feel that the work that they do is not leading to tangible results. i often ask them to consider the very long trajectory of black struggles, and what has been most important is the forging of legacies, new arenas of struggle that can be handed down to younger generations. but i've often said one never knows when conditions may give rise to a conjuncture such as the current one that rapidly shifts popular consciousness and suddenly allows us to move in the direction of radical change.

if one does not engage in the ongoing work when such a moment arises, we cannot take advantage of the opportunities to change. and, of course, this moment will pass. the intensity of the current demonstrations cannot be sustained over time, but we will have to be ready to shift gears and address these issues in different arenas, including, of course, the electoral arena. amy: angela davis, you have long been a leader of the critical resistance movement, the abolition movement. and i'm wondering ifou can explain the demand, as you see it, what you feel needs to be done, around defunding the police, and then around prison abolition. prof. davis: well, the call to defund the police is, i think, an abolitionist demand,

but it reflects only one aspect of the process represented by the demand. defunding the police is not simply about withdrawing funding for w enforcement and doing nothing else. it appears as if this is the rather superficial understanding that has caused biden to move in the direction he's moving in. it's about shifting public funds to new services and new institutions -- mental health counselors who can respond to people who are in crisis without arms. it's about shifting funding to education, to housing, to recreation. all of these things help to create security and safety. it's about learning that safety,

safeguarded by violence, is not really safety. and i would say that abolition is not primarily a negative strategy. it's not primarily about smantling, getting rid of, but it's about reenvisioning. it's about building anew, and i would argue that abolition is a feminist strategy. and one sees in these abolitionist demands that are emerging the pivotal influence of feminist theories and practices. amy: explain that further. prof. davis: i want us to see feminism not only as addressing issues of gender, but rather as a methodological approach of understanding the intersectionality of struggles and issues.

abolition feminism counters carceral feminism, which has, unfortunately, assumed that issues such as violence against women can be effectively addressed by using police force, by using imprisonment as a solution. and, of course, we know that joseph biden, in 1994, who claims that the violence against women act was such an important moment in his career -- the violence against women act was couched within the 1994 crime act, the clinton crime act. and what we're calling for is a process of decriminalization, not --

recognizing that threats to safety, threats to security, come not primarily from what is defined as crime, but rather from the failure of institutions in our country to address issues of health, issues of violence, education, etc. so abolition is really about rethinking the kind of future we want, the social future, the economic future, the political future. it's about revolution, i would argue. amy: you write in freedom is a constant struggle, "neoliberal ideology drives us to focus on individuals, ourselves, individual victim individual perpetrators, but how is it possible to solve the massive problem of racist state violence by calling upon individual police officers

to bear the burden of that history and to assume that by prosecuting them, by exacting our revenge on them, we would have somehow made progress in eradicating racism?" so explain what exactly you're demanding. prof. davis: well, neoliberal logic assumes that the fundamental unit of society is the individual, and i would sa the abstract individual. according to that logic, black people can combat racism by pulling themselves up by their own individual bootstraps. that logic recognizes, or fails, rather, to recognize that there are institutional barriers that cannot be brought down by individual determination. if a black person is materially unable to attend the university, the solution is not affirmative action, they argue, but rather the person simply needs to work harder, get good grades and do what is necessary

in order to acquire the funds to pay for tuition. neoliberal logic deters us from thinking about the simpler solution, which is free education. i'm thinking about the fact that we have been aware of the need for these institutional strategies at least since 1935, but of course before, but i'm choosing 1935 because that was the year when w.e.b. du bois published his germinal "black reconstruction in america." and the question was not what should individual black people do, but rather how to reorganize and restructure post-slavery society in order to guarantee the incorporation of those who had been formerly enslaved? the society could not remain the same, or should not have remained the same.

neoliberalism resists change at the individual level. it asks the individual to adapt to conditions of capitalism, to conditions of racism. amy: i wanted to ask you, angela davis, abouthe monunts to racists, colonizers, confederates that are continuing to fall across the united states and around the world. did you think you would ever see this? you think about bree newsome after the horror at mother emanuel church in charleston, south carolina, o shimmied up that flagpole on the grounds of the south carolina legislature and took down the confederate flag, and they put it right on back up. what about what we're seeing today? prof. davis: well, of course, bree newsome was a wonderful pioneer, and i think it's important to link this trend

to the campaign in south africa, rhodes must fall. and, of course, i think this reflects the extent to which we are being called upon to deeply reflect on t role of historical racisms that have brought us to the point where we are today. you know, racism should have been immediately confronted in the aftermath of the end of slavery. this is what dr. du bois's analysis was all about, not so much in terms of, "well, what we were going to do about these poor people who have been enslaved so many generations?" t rather, "how can we reorganize our society

in order to guarantee the incorporation of previously enslaved people?" now, attention is being turned towards the symbols of slavery, the symbols of colonialism. and, of course, any campaigns against racism in this country have to address, in the very first place, the conditions of indigenous people. i think it's important that we're seeing these demonstrations, but i think at the same time we have to recognize that we cannot simply get rid of the history. we have to recognize the devastatgly negati role that that history has played in charting the trajectory of the united states of america. and so, i think th these assaults on statues

represent an attempt to begin to think through what we have to do to bring down institutions and reenvision them, reorganize them, create new institutions that can attend to the needs of all people. amy: can you talk about racism and capitalism? you often write and speak about how they are intimately connected and talk about a world that you envision. prof. davis: yeah, racism is integrally linked to capitalism, and i think it's a mistake to assume that we can combat racism by leaving capitalism in place. as cedric robinson pointed out in his book "black marxism," capitalism is racial capitalism. and, of course, to just say for a moment,

that marx pointed out that what he called primitive accumulation, capital doesn't just appear from nowhere. the original capital was provided by the labor of slaves. the industrial revolution, which pivoted around the production of capital, was enabled by slave labor in the u.s. so i am convinced that the ultimate eradication of racism is going to require us to move toward a more socialist organization of our economies, of our other institutions. i think we have a long way to go before we can begin to talk about an economic system that is not based on exploitation and on the super-exploitation of black people, latinx people and other racialized populations, but i do think that we now have the conceptual means to engage in discussions,

popular discussions, about capitalism. occupy gave us new language. the notion of the pris-industrial complex requires us to understand the globalization of capitalism. anti-capitalist consciousness helps us to understand the predicament of immigrants, who are barred from the u.s. by the wall that has been created by the current occupant. these conditions have been created by global capitalism, and i think this is a period during which we need to begin that process of popular education, which will allow people to understand the interconnections of racism, heteropatriarchy, capitalism. amy: the legendary activist and scholar angela davis speaking in june. when we come back, we'll speak to professors cornel west

and keeanga-yamahtta taylor.   [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the quarantine report. i am amy goodman. as we continue to look at the uprisings against police brutality and racism,

i want to turn to a conversation democracy now's nermeen shaikh and i had in early june with the scholars keeanga-yamahtta taylor of princeton university and cornel west of harvard university. i began by asking professor keeanga-yamahtta taylor to talk about the mass uprising and the police killi of george floyd. prof. taylor: part of what we are seeing is years and years of pent-up rage. many people have referenced the 1960s, have referenced ferguson in 2014, but i think it's important to say that these are not just repeats of past events. these are the consequences of the failures of this government and the political establishment, the economic establishment of this country to resolve those crises, and so they build and accumulate over time, and we a watching the boiling over of that.

imagine how angry, desperate, rage-filled you would have to be to come out and protest in the conditions of a historical pandemic that has already killed over 103,000 americans, that has had a disproportionately horrendous impact in black communities. i believe 23,000 or 24,000 black people have died. to put it more bluntly, one in every 2,000 african americans in the united states has died as the result of covid. so imagine how difficult things have to be for people to come out in those conditions. so i think that the buildup around police brutality, the continuation of police brutality, police abuse and violence and murder has compelled people to have to endure those conditions

because it is obvious that there is either nothing that our government can do abo this or that the government is complicit and chooses not to do anything about this. and i think that we have to add to that the crisis that is unfolding beyond police brutality in thcountry, as well, because we all know that the videotapes of police beatings, abuse, murder have nevertopped. so t movement that grew out of the ferguson uprising, that became blk lives matter, the conditions that led to that never actually ended. and i think that what has reignited that is obviously the public lynching of george floyd one week ago in minneapolis, but also the conditions, the wider context within which that is spilling over,

and because of that wider condition of mass unemployment, of the death that has been caused by the pandemic, that this is not just -- i don't believe these are just protests around or against police brutality. but we see a lot of -- hundreds, if not thousands, of young white people in these uprisings, making these multiracial rebellions, really, and i think that that is important. some people have sort of described the participation of white people as outside agitators, or i know that there are reports of white supremacists infiltrating some of the demonstrations, and i think that those are things that we have to pay attention to, keep track of and try to understand, but i think we cannot dismiss in a widespread way the participation of young white people

because we have to see that what has happened over the last decade has gutted their lives, too. and there has been some discussion about this with perhaps their parents' generation, with the description of deaths by despair, so we know that the life pectancy of ordinary white men and women has gone into reverse. something, by the way, that does not typically happen in the developed world. it is driven by opioid addiction, alcoholism and suicide. and so, this generation, whose lives really -- you know, if you've graduated from college, your life has been bracketed by war at the turn of the 21st century, by recession, and now by a deadly pandemic. and so, i think we're seeing the convergence of a class rebellion with racism and racial terrorism at the center of it, and in many ways, we are in uncharted territory

in the united states. nermeen: dr. cornel west, could you respond to what professor yamahtta taylor said? you agree that, of course, the murd of george floyd was a lynching. you've also said that his murder and the demonstrations that have followed show that america is a failed social experiment. so could you respond to that and also the way that the state and police forces have rponded to the protests following george floyd's killing, with the national guard called out in so many cities and states across the country? prof. west: well, there's no doubt that this is america's moment of reckoning, but we want to make thconnection between the local and the global because, you see, when you sow the seeds of greed --

domestically, inequality. globally, imperial tentacles, 800 military units abroad, violence and africom in africa, supporting various regimes, dictatorial ones in asia and so forth -- there is a connection between the seeds that you sow of violence externally and internally. same is true in terms of the seed of hatred, of white supremacy, hating black people, anti-blackness hatred having its own dynamic within the context of a predatory capitalist civilization obsessed with money, money, money, domination of workers, marginalization of those who don't fit -- gay brothers, lesbian sisters, trans and so forth. so it's precisely this convergence that my dear sister professor taylor is talking about of the ways in which the american empire,

imploding, its foundations being shaken with uprisings from below. the catalyst was certainly brother george floyd's public lynching, but the failures of the predatory capitalist economy to provide the satisfaction of the basic needs of food and healthcare and quality education, jobs with a decent wage, at the same time the collapse of your political class, the collapse of your professional class. their legitimacy has been radically caed into question, and that's multiracial. it's the neofascist dimension in trump. it's the neoliberal dimension in biden and obama and the clintons and so forth, and it includes much of the media. it includes many of the professors in universities. the young people are saying, "y all have been hypocritical.

you haven't been concerned about our suffering, our misery, and we no longer believe in your legitimacy." and it spills over into violent explosion. and it's here. i won't go on, but, i mean, it's here, where i think ella baker and fannie lou hamer and rabbi heschel and edward said, and especially brother martin and malcolm, their legacies, i think, become more central because they provide the kind of truth telling. they provide the connection between justice and compassion in their example, in their organizing, and that's what is needed right now. rebellion is not the same thing in any way as revolution, and what we need is a nonviolent revolutionary project of full-scale democratic sharing -- power, wealth, resources, respect, organizing -- and a fundamental transformation of this american empire. amy: and your thoughts, professor west, on the governor of minnesota

saying they're looking into white supremacist connections to the looting and the burning of the city, and then president trump tweeting that he's going to try to put antifa, the anti-fascist activists, on the terror list, which he cannot do, and william barr emphasizing this, saying he's going after the far left to investigate? prof. west: no, i mean, that's ridiculous. you know, you remember, sister amy, and i love and respect you so, that antifa saved my life in charlottesville. there's no doubt about it. they provided the security, you see. so the very notion that they become candidates for a terrorist organization, but the people who were trying to kill us -- the nazis, the klan -- they're not candidates for terrorist organization status, but that's what you're going to get. you're going to get a trump-led neofascist backlash and clampdown on what is going on.

we ought to be very clear about that. the neofascism has that kind of obsession with militaristic imposition in the face of any kind of disorder, and so we've got to be fortified for that. but most importantly, i think, we've got to make sure that we preserve our own moral, spiritual, quality, fundamental focus on truth and justice, and keep track of legalized looting, wall street greed, legalized murder, police, legalized murder abroad in yemen, in pakistan, in africa with africom, and so forth. that's where our focus has to be because with all of this rebellious energy, it's got to be channeled through organizations rooted in a quest for truth and justice. amy: professors cornel west and keeanga-yamahtta taylor. we'll hear more from them in a moment, but first let's turn to former women's march co-chair tamika mallory. she spoke at a rally in minneapolis days

after the police killed george floyd. tamika: we are not responsible for the mental illness that has been inflicted upon our people by the american government, institutions, and those people who are in positions of power. i don't give a damn if they burn down target because target should be on the streets with us calling for the justice that our people deserve. where was autone at the time when philando castile was shot in a car, which is what they actually represent? where were they? so if you are not coming to the people's defense, then don't challenge us when young people and other people who are frustrated and instigated by the people you pay -- you are paying instigators to be among our people out there, throwing rocks, breaking windows, and burning down buildings, and so young people are responding to that. they are enraged.

and there's an easy way to stop it. arrest the cops. charge the cops. charge all the cops, not just some of them, not just here in minneapolis. charge them in every city across america where our people are being murdered. charge them everywhere. that's the bottom line. charge the cops. do your job. do what you say this country is supposed to be about -- the land of the free for all. it has not been free for black people, and we are tired. don't talk to us about looting. y'all are the looters. america has looted black people. america looted the native americans when they first came here, so looting is what you do. we learned it from you. we learned violence from you. we learned violence from you. the violence was what we learned from you. so if you want us to do better, then, damn it, you do better.

nermeen: tamika mallory speaking in minneapolis over the weekend. professor keeanga-yamahtta taylor, if you could respond to her extraordinary sech, and also the way in which public officials, including liberal officials like new york city mayor bill de blasio, have responded to the protests, simultaneously saying they feel the pain of the protesters but condemning the violence and looting, as they say. prof. taylor: one thing that bemes so aarent with the cops on the street, one, you understand -- i mean, for most of america, you get a glpse of why people are so angry. i mean, look at the kind of wanton, reckless abuse and violence that the police are instigating and attacking people who artrying to protest. i feel like what we've seen er the weekend

is a national police riot. and, you know, it's no wonder. they feel emboldened by the white nationalism of the president ofhe united states and, really, the lawlessness of the republican party writ large. and so, it fee like we're bearing the consequences of that, but i think that there is a bigger issue about the cops that is also worth talking about, which is why these police are never arrested, prosecuted, punished, really, even beyond just arresting and prosecuting people, but just punishing them as public servants for their kind of racist, abusive, and violent behavior. and i think that, you know, regardless of what these elected officials have to say, i think that we're actually going to see a lot more of this, which is why the conflicts will continue.

and the reason why i say that is because it has been a strategy of cities across this country that have committed themselv to not investing in the civic and public sector infrastructure -- so, public schools, public hospals, public libraries -- all the things that make a city function. those haveeen systematically defunded, increasingly privatized, and the way that cities manage the inevitable crises that arise from that, when combined with unemployment, when combined with poverty, when combined with evictions and all of the insecurities that we see wracking cities across this country, the police are used to manage that crisis. and that is why, in city after city, as other public institutions take financial hits, as other public institutions are defunded, it's the police that always get to maintain their budgets.

and we look around now, where, because of the covid crisis, every city is talking about massive budget cuts, but not to the police. the police almost never have to incur layoffs. they never have to incur budget cuts because they are seen as the public policy of last resort. and so, this is -- when we talk about defunding the police, it is that the police should not be absorbing a third of the budget, as they do in cities like philadelphia, chicago, los angeles, new york, while we're closing public schools, while public hospitals don't have the proper personal protective equipment. look at the way that police are -- the gear and the equipment that they have compared to hospital workers dressing themselves in garbage bags, being forced to use the same n95 masks for weeks at a time.

look at the contrast between that, and then you understand what the actual priorities of the governing politicians and bodies are. which is why -- and this is the last thing i'll say -- the hypocrisy of someone like andrew cuomo or bill de blasio or any of these politicians coming on television, on their press conference, wringing their hands about the police, talking about these issues as if ey are passive bystanders or just concerned citizens, and not elected officials who have power, who have authority, who have the ability to punish the police, who have the ability to make budgetary priorities, who have the ability to shift resources in one direction or another, but they sit back and act as if they are just watching the train wreck in slow motion, and not that they are actually in control of the gears. and this is part of the hypocrisy

that is making people so angry. amy: that is princeton university professor keeanga-yamahtta taylor and harvard university professor cornel west. when we come back, antiracist activist bree newsome bass and princeton university professor eddie glaude about the election of joe biden d kamala harris.   [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the quarantine report. i'm amy goodman. we end this holiday special looking at the election of joe biden and kamala harris, who will become the rst woman vice president as well as the first african american, indian american, caribbean american, and asian american elected to the office. two days after the election was called for biden and harris, i spoke to two guests, professor eddie glaude, chair of princeton university's department of african american studies and author of "begin again: james baldwin's america and its urgent lessons for our own," and also, from north carolina, i talked to bree newsome bass, an artist and antiracist and housing rights activist. she made national headlines in 2015 when she scaled the 30-foot flagpole

at the south carolina state capitol to remove the confederate flag shortly after the massacre of eight african american parishioners and their pastor by a white supremacist at the emanuel ame church in charleston, south carolina. when police ordered her down, she responded by saying -- bree: you come against me with hatred and oppression and violence. i come against you in the name of god. this flag comes down today! amy: "you come against me with hatred and oppression and violence. i come against you in the name of god. this flag comes down today!" she said. i began by asking bree newsome bass about her reaction to the election results. bree: yes, i mean, it is undoubtedly a historic moment, right? i also see a lot of historical parallels right now. you know, i am repeatedly saying that i think that the central conflict in the united states is

and has always been this tension between the ideology of white supremacy and thisoncept of having a multiracial democracy where everyone is allowed to participate in it, and i think that tension is continuing to play out today. you know, of course, we just had the election of the first woman vice president, black vice president, a woman of south asian descent, a descendent of immigrants, i mean. and so, on one hand, you have what kind of like represents again this concept of multiracial democracy. on the other hand, you have -- or on the other side, you have a blatant white nationalist movement. and then, somewhere there in the middle is this constant conversation around unifying the nation and trying to, like, heal that divide, which i frankly think is an ideological divide that cannot be unified. i think that part of the reason why this tension is ongoing and is unresolved is because those two things cannot coexist.

and so, even while you have, on one side, the extension of the hand and this language around healing the nation and reaching across the aisle and unifying, the other side has still not even conceded the race. the other side is refusing to acknowledge the election results. and i think it's important to recognize, as well, that the entire trump era was in many ways a backlash, right? to this very concept of having a multiracial democracy, to the election of obama and what that represented in terms of the shifting demographics. and i think that this election, again, is kind of like another echo of that, where biden and harris, theyere elected because of this multiracial coalitio essentially, that formed among the voting base. and that's why we are where we are. and sohile, ofourse, it is a very historic moment and you see people celebrating all across the nation,

that central conflict has yet to be resolved, just as this election, really, in many ways, has yet to be resolved. amy: and professor eddie glaude, and feel free to channel james baldwin, if you'd like, which i think you can't help but do, if you can talk about what your feelings were on saturday as you watched joe den and kamala harris ascend the stage in wilmington, delaware, what this all means? prof. glaude: well, you know, my initial reaction was, thank god we're going to see the back of donald trump's head, that the disaster of the last four years, at least embodied in the trump administration -- stephen miller, betsy devos, william barr, the whole gaggle of folk, giuliani, the children -- all of those folk will be behind us soon, and, of course, the symbolic significance of kamala harris as the first black vice president, the first black president of south asian descent

and caribbean descent and the like. i was thinking about the national council of negro women. i was thinking about the atlanta washerwomen strike of 81. i was thinking about the women's political council in montgomery, who were the backbone of the montgomery bus boycott. i was thinking about ella baker and fannie lou hamer. all of these folk are the wind behind kamala harris's back that make her possible, but she's a symbolic -- also the symbolic importance of her, of course. but we must understand that yesterday was day, and the day before was a day of celebration. today is the day for the hard work. the country is deeply divided, as bree said. and we have to get about the work of responding to the problems we face as a nation at scale and not returning back to some sense of normalcy, which in some ways laid the foundation for the disaster that was and is trumpism. amy: as we continue our conversation with eddie glaude and as well as bree newsome bass,

we're going to turn right now to a comment that is brewing part of the debate that's happening right now about the direction of the democratic party. this is house majority whip james clyburn of south carolina, who went on several sunday talk shows to criticize calls to defund the police, arguing the phrase hurts democratic congressional candidates. here he is on nbc's "meet the press" citing the defeat of jaime harrison in south carolina against incumbent republican senator lindsey graham. rep. clyburn: jaime harrison started to plateau with "defund the police," showed up with a caption on tv right ross hisead. that stuff hurt jaime, and that's why i spoke out against it aong time a. i have always said that these headlines

can kill a political effort. amy: that's congressmember clyburn eaking on the sunday talk shows. clyburn is credited with, really, joe biden winning the democratic primaries, having endorsed him right before the south carolina primary, which then launched him to victory. i wanted to first go to bree newsome bass. you're in the carolinas, but u're in the other one. you're in north carolina. can you talk about this major debate, this debate for the soul of the democratic party right now, bree? bree: yes, certainly. well, i mean, first of all, to this argument that is being made so fiercely right now, you know, attacking the "defund the police" effort, i mean, i have yet to see anyone provide any concrete data that supports that claim, other than people making this conjecture. i mean, i live in the carolinas. i have seen all of the ads that have been running.

i mean, they were also running a lot of ads trying to tie jaime harrison to hillary clinton and nancy pelosi. so, i mean, unless someone is showing data that can really show that one or the other is what led to jaimearrison specifically plateauing in south carolina, which is a deeply red state, you know, was an uphill battle against lindsey graham to beginith, i frankly don't give that a whole lot weight. and i think, again, we cannot gloss over the racial aspect of this whole situation. so we're talking about a situation where the democratic leadership is making the claim -- simultaneously making the claim that we need to reach across the aisle, we need to engage in bipartisanship with the party that is not acknowledging the election results, the party that just tried to prevent us from having a free and fair election,

the party that engaged in rampant voter suppression, disenfranchisement and intimidation, and particularly in communities of color, the party that, you know, is completely opposed to the idea of our existence, the party that is essentially advocating a form of genocide through medical neglect that has been ravaging our communities. and so we can't just gloss over when people are saying that the path forward is to build with republicans and at the same time to essentially demonize, make a boogeyman of black activism and black causes. it is the organizers, the same exact people who have been organizing black communities around issues that impact us that mobilized those voters for the biden-harris win. you know, i've also seen people making reference to progressives

as being the ones who are being divisive or, you know, ending the truce within the democratic party. it's quite the opposite. you had a situation where you have a significant segment of people who either traditionally vote democrat, a lot of people who are completely disengaged from the electoral process completely because they feel that regardless of who is in power, their needs are not met, regardless of who is in power, the police continue to kill us, regardless of who is in power, we do not have access to proper healthcare, we do not have access to housing. so you had a lot of organizers who had to do a lot of heavy lifting to convince folks that it was worthwhile simply to get trump out, to mobilize behind biden and harris. that's why you got georgia turning out as it did. that's why you got arizona turning out as it did. so, in my view, for anyone to look at the election results and for the takeaway to be we need

to figure out how to appeal to the lindsey graham voters, you know, and the deeply red districts, as opposed to recognizing that there's an entire electorate that is younger, that represents where the electorate is going -- it's younger, it's more diverse, it can win you states in the south -- this is the argument that stacey abrams has been making for quite some time -- instead of looking at things and saying, "how can we invest more in black and indigenous and people of color organizing? how can we really look at those issues?" i mean, politically, that makes a lot more sense than saying, "how do we tap into the electorate that lost the presidential election, the electorate that is shrinking, and then, morally, the electorate that opposes democracy?" because they are more committed to racism than they are to the idea of a democracy that allows everyone to participate. so, you know, again, i just think that we cannot --

we cannot gloss over. yes, i recognize, of course, that james clyburn is a long-standing politician from south carolina. he is black. and i don't -- you know, i'm sure that he recognizes what the political landscape is like in south carolina, but if we'reooking at the bigger picte, they're going to cost themselves the senate race in georgia if the case that they're making is that we're going to try to lean more towards republican than making it clear to people that unless they turn folks out for those senate seats in georgi you'reot going to have access to the things that you need, like healthcare and all these other things. so, if they embrace a more centrist or republican agenda, then the takeaway from folks is going to be, again, that it doesn't matter whether they turn out to vote or not. so i think it's just, like, the complete opposite. and the fact that the focus in the immediate aftermath of the election, when we e still dealing with the situation of a president who does not acknowledge the election results, we've got him stoking violence among white supremacists

who are threatening violence against sitting governors, who have threatened to blow up ballot-counting centers, that folks would pick defunding the police as the target, as the threat, as the danger, when you're talking about communities that are still being killed by police and still turning out to support this party in spite of that, complete opposite direction of where they should be going. amy: that brings us to professor eddie glaude. professor, you tweeted this quote from james baldwin, "it has always seemed much easier to murder than to change. and this is really the choice with which we are confronted now." explain. prof. glaude: well, you know, there's a sense in which the reckoning that we find ourselves involves the question of whether or not we're going to fundamentally embrace the idea that we are a multiracial democracy. and the history of the country suggests that we constantly,

when faced with that question, will double down on violence, that white america will choose violence to defend its way of life, to defend those noxious assumptions that have, in some ways, led to the organization of our way of life predicated upon this idea that white peoplought to b valued more than others, that they will in fact exact a ceain kind of violence to defend that view. and so, baldwin, in this moment, is kind of marking this, right? that america is always talking about it changing, but it never changes, right? and so, what's so interesting about the conversation around the democratic party is that it's actually insane -- right? -- that we would think that the way to respond to the scale of problems that we confront as a nation is to harken back to an older form of politics thats dlc, "third way" democratic-oriented -- you know, democratic politics, that sms to try to triangulate and appeal to this reagan democrat that they are so obsessed

with as a way of responding to this problem. it makes no sense that we would go back to the politics at actually produced trumpism in the first place. that's the first point. the second -- or the second point. the third point is this, we can't allow these folk to disentangle trumpism from the republican party. i think this is what bree newsome bass is trying to suggest to us. we can't allow them to disentangle these two things. they are one and the same. so what are you asking for when you talk about reaching across the aisle? what are you asking us to do when you talk about reaching across the aisle in unity? we won't do that again. that's not going to happen this time. and then, lastly, we need to get beyond, i think, these narrow labels. the politics is much more muddled, right? we need to get beyond these narrow labels. we need to get beyond big government and small government and smart government and get to transformational government. we need to understand what "defund the police" means. budget your values. budget your values.

that's what it means at the heart of it, right? why are you spending 60%, 70% of your municipal budgets on policing when you have education, social services and the like? stop lying. stop lying. and then what we need to pay attention to, lastly -- i'll say this really quickly -- we need to pay attention to who biden appoints as his secretary of treasury. if we get another rubinite, if we see someone in that tradition, we know what we got. and so, remember, we celebrate yesterday and the day before, but today begins the hard work. the problems of this nation require us to break from the old frames. and we will not allow clyburn, we will not allow kamala harris's symbolic significance, we will not allow the threat of donald trump to get us from seeing that that is the issue. we have to break the political frames that got us in this mess in the first place. amy: i wanted to ask you, professor glaude, black male voters, a lot is being made of, came out in higher numbers for trump this time than last time.

but my colleague, co-host juan gonzález, did a brilliant analysis of the information that's come out on who voted in this unprecedentedly high turnout campaign, the highest in absolute history. now, what it looks like at this point, as he was pointing out, white voters did not increase that much. that meant people of color increased. yes, there were more people of color who voted for trump, but overwhelmingly more who voted for joe biden and kamala harris. apparently, many people are concerned about -- well, i mean, obviously, many people are concerned about how close the election was -- trump winning possibly about, at this point, 57% of the white vote. and you, in your piece in time magazine, said, "alongside the details of policy and the particulars of governing a deeply divided country, biden will have to confront what donald trump refused to face:

that our way of life is broken." can you end with that? prof. glaude: sure. you know, i think we have to deal with the reality of our dead. close to 240,000 americans are dead, and there's no communal, public rituals to acknowledge the collective grief and individual sorrow that we're experiencing. we have to deal with loneliness and what does it mean for us to be stuck in our homes and hidden behind our masks, where social interactions are kind of overdetermined by the specter of death and the virus. and then, of course, the principal issue is selfishness, that you have folk who have simply given up stake in the american life for their own selfish ends. and so, when we look at those numbers among black men and latino men, we can say that, you know, the epidemic of selfishness doesn't end at the doorstep of white people. and so you have people who are concerned about their 401k's, concerned about their own individual self-gain, individual self-interest. and so, these folk have opted out, in some ys, of any robust conception of the public good.

so we're going to have to deal with death, loneliness andelfishness and how it poses, i think, an existential threat to our democratic way of life. but, you know, everybody bringing up black men. when you look at black folk, when you think about what happened in atlanta, when you think about what happened in milwaukee, when you think about what happened in detroit, when you think about what happened in philly, you see the path for the biden-harris ticket to get to the white house through black america, black folk. black men voted at 80-plus percent. they need to start talking about why white women have voted at 56% for donald trump, given what he's done. but, again, who's at the center of the gravity of our politics who are folks thinking about all the time in a certain sort of way? we need to -- these numbers will allow us to drill down at some point, but we need to understand the reality for what it is. amy: last 30 seconds, bree newsome bass. bree: yes. i mean, i think that there is this constant abusive relationship between party politics and black communities, where we are scapegoated when it's convenient, and then we are thrown under the bus when it's convenient.

and otherwise, it's, you know, "show up to e polls to help us stay in power because we can't get elected without you." and that's a dynamic that has to end. when it's time to try to scapegoat and talk about, you know, why did trump do better, then theyant talk about black men. when it's time to talk about the issues and why 80% of black men turned out to vote for biden, no one wants ttalk about defunding the police. that's the dynamic that has to end. and i think the last thing i would say is it's important for everyone to recognize that the black movement, the black organizing of our communities, that is independent of the democratic party. we are interacting with party politics, but this movement began during the obama administration, it continued through the trump administration, and it will continue through the biden administration. amy: antiracist activist bree newsome bass and princeton university professor eddie glaude. democracy now! is produced with renée feltz, mike burke, deena guzder, libby rainey, nermeen shaikh, maría taracena, carla wills, tami woronoff, charina nadura, sam alcoff, tey-marie astudillo, john hamilton, robby karran, hany massoud and adriano contreras.

our general manager is julie crosby. special thanks to becca staley, miriam barnard, paul powell, mike di filippo, miguel nogueira, hugh gran, denis moynihan, david prude and dennis mccormick. i'm amy goodman. thanks so much for joining us.

♪ ♪ vietnam successfully surpressed the coronavirus through the early adoption of anti-infection measures. it's home to 96 million people and shares a land border with china. yet the country was able to end