08/19/21 08/19/21 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> with the courage that i had in me, i went to the office to start my work but the current system soldiers did not give me permission. they told me the regime has changed. you are not allowed. amy: since the taliban seize control of afghanistan, many women say they are afraid to go out. and after news anchor said the

taliban prohibited her from returning to work. we will speak to three afghan women. one fled in 2017, one last month, and one left last friday. she said "my taliban nightmare came true. i left, but my sister couldn't." then we will look at president biden's defense of the was withdrawal of afghanistan. >> numerous takes? pres. biden: no. 'reoing to gback in hindsight and look but the idea that somehow there is a way to have gotten out without chaos, i don't know how that happens. maybe we will speak with craig whitlock. he has covered the longest war in history and author of the new book "the afghanistan papers: a secret history of the war." all that and more, coming up. welcomto democracy now!, democracyn.org, the war and

peace report. i'm amy goodman. afghan protesters have taken to the streets for a second day in a row in defiance of the taliban which seized control of the country on sunday. protests have been held in kabul and other cities today to mark afghan independence day. al jazeera reports the taliban -- two people died in the city of asadabad after opening fire on protesters during an independence day celebration. there were reports the firing began after someone stabbed a member of the taliban. this comes a day after the taliban killed three protesters in jalalabad. on wednesday, ousted afghan president ashraf ghani spoke publicly for the first time since fleeing kabul. speaking from the united arab emirates, ghani said he left to prevent more bloodshed. >> all my colleagues in the west told me if i don't leave, things would be worse. i could have stayed and started

a war, but i had responsibility to my people and i did not want to start a bloodbath like in syria and yemen. amy: president biden says u.s. troops will stay in afghanistan until every american is evacuated, even if that means staying beyond his august 31 deadline. this comes as evacuation flights continue from the airport in kabul. but many afghans cannot make it safely to the airport. taliban fighters have shot at and whipped some of the people trying to flee. wednesday night, u.s. forces fired tear near the airport at afghans who were trying to flee the country. al jazeera reports at least 12 people have been killed in or around the airport this week. meanwhile, president biden is defending his handling of the withdrawal of troops from afghanisn. he was interviewed by george stephanopoulos on abc. >> so you don't think this could have been handled better in any way? no mistakes? pres. biden: nope, i don't think

it could have been handled in a way -- we are going to go back in hindsight and look but the idea that somehow there is a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, i don't know how that happens. amy: the biden administration has announced plans to begin offering vaccine booster shots starting september 20, citing new cdc studies showing the declining effectiveness of covid vaccines over time. the u.s. decision has been widely criticized. on tuesday, world health organization director general tedros adhanom ghebreyesus tweeted -- "it's unconscionable that some #covid19 vaccine-producing companies are reporting record profits, and some countries are offering boosters, while so many people remain unprotected." on wednesday, u.s. surgeon general vivek murthy defended the decision. >> look, i do not accept the idea we have to choose. we clearly see our

responsibility to both. we will do everything we can to protect people here at home while recognizing getting people vaccinated is key to preventing the rise of the variants. amy: on wednesday, the biden administration announced all nursing homes must fully vaccinate their staff or risk losing federal medicare and medicaid funds. the administration is also considering taking federal action against florida, texas, and other states that have prohibited mask mandates in schools. meanwhile, the school board in the city of paris, texas, has added masks to the school district's dress code in an effort to circumvent a ban on mask mandates issued by republican governor greg abbott -- who has tested positive for coronavirus. in tokyo, officials at the upcoming paralympics have reported the fst confirmed coronavirus case in the olympic village. this comes five days before the

games open. on tuesday, tokyo extended a state of emergency in the city until september 12. meanwhile, australia has just reported its biggest one-day rise in covid-19 infections since the pandemic began as the delta surge continues spread rapidly across the globe. in haiti, the death toll from saturday's devastating 7.2 magnitude earthquake has risen to about 2200 with more than 12,000 people injured. the quake destroyed more than 7000 homes, leaving tens of thousands of homeless. many hospitals were damaged. aid has only begun to arrive in some of the affected areas as survivors fear they have been abandoned. >> if they sent aid, we have to receive it. they have abandoned the people. we have no lawmakers. we have no senators.

we have been abandoned. we're just waiting for god. amy: in california, the fast-moving caldor fire has leveled most of the town of grizzly flats, including the town's elementary school, community church, and post office. the fire has expanded d to over 62,000 acres of land. on wednesday, authorities with cal fire transferred 30 engines from fighting the massive dixie fire to the caldor fire. california is now battling 13 major fires. the texas supreme court has ruled absent democratic lawmakers can be arrested after they fled the state last month to block a vote on a new voter suppression bill. last week, the speaker of the republican-controlled house signed 52 arrest warrants to compel the democrats to return to the texas capital. an appeals court upheld texas's ban on dilation and evacuation or d&e, the most commonly used abortion method in the second imester.

the decision vacates a ruling last year that said the ban was unconstitutional. doctors who defy the ban could face prison time. "this ban is about cutting off abortion access, and nhing else," said whole woman's health, a plaintiff in the case. in burma, the civilian death toll since the february 1 military coup has topped at least 1000 according to a local rights group. over 5700 people have been arrested, charged, or sentenced. a covid-19 surge is further compounding the crisis in burma, with shortages in medical resources and many patients to sced to visit hospitals, which have been under attack by the military. in burkina faso, at least 47 people died on wednesday in an attack by armed men in the town of arbinda. the dead included 30 civilians and 14 soldiers. meanwhile, in neighboring niger, the government has declared two days of mourning after gunmen on motorbikes killed 37 civilians

, including 14 children monday. human rights watch reports armed islamist groups have killed over 420 civilians in western niger since january. in news from the occupied territories, israeli authorities have demolished a palestinian kindergarten just days before it was set to open. the demolition took place in the town of beit sfafa near jerusalem. in a victory for indigenous rights and the environment, a federal judge blocked wednesday construction permits for a massive oil and gas project in northern alaska known as the "willow master project." environmental and indigenous groups sued the u.s. government to stop the multibillion-dollar deal with conocophillips, which was approved last year by the trump administration and backed by biden's interior department. groups argued the project, which was set to produce more than 100,000 barrels of oil a day for the next 30 years, would disrupt fragile wildlife and contribute

to the climate crisis. the environmental protection agency has banned the use of chlorpyrifos, a common pesticide shown to cause brain damage in children. the obama administration said it would ban the use of the pesticide in 2015, but the ban next took effect before it was reversed by the trump administration. the pesticide is used by farmers on more than 50 fruit, nuts, cereal, and vegetable crops. and the acclaimed italian surgeon dr. gino strada has died at the age of 73. strada was the founder of the medical aid group emergency to provide assistance to civilian victims of war. he worked in afghanistan, iraq, yemen, rwanda, and other countries. in 2015, he won the right livelihood award. >> just like deadly diseases come has to be prevented and killed.

violence is not the right medicine. it does not cure the disease, it kills the patient. amy: to see our 2005 interview with dr. gino strada, visit democracynow.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman in new york, with nmeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: today, we spend the hour on afghanistan, where protesters have taken to the streets for a second day in a row in defiance of the taliban, which seized control of the country on sunday. protests have been held in kabul and other cities today to mark afghan independence day. al jazeera reports two people died in aside about after the taliban opened fire on protesters waving the afghan national fact. this comes a day after the

taliban killed three testers in jalalabad. on wednesday, ousted afghan president ashraf ghani spoke publicly for the first time since fleeing kabul. he spoke from the united arab emirates. ghani said he left to prevent more bloodshed. >> all my colleagues in the west told me if i don't leave things would be worse. i could have stayed and started a war, but i had a responsibility to my people and i did not want to start a bloodbath like in syria and yemen. amy: ghani said if he had not left afghanistan, "the people of the country would have seen another president hanging on the news of syrian." this comes as president biden says u.s. troops will stay in afghanistan until every american is evacuated, even if that means staying beyond his august 31 deadline. evacuation flights are continuing from the airport in kabul. but the taliban is preventing many afghans from reaching the airport, with some being shot or whipped.

a student in kabul pulled reuters no women could be seen on the streets after the taliban took control of the city. >> girls are not outrom their homes. i don't see any girls in the street in kabul. they are afraid. they are scared from the taliban. amy: for more, we are going to be joined by three afghan women who have fled their country -- one left in 2017, 1 left last month but was planning to return, and one left friday for a brief visit to the united states. let's begin with nasrin nawa, who was in kabul until friday and joins us from lincoln, nebraska, where she is a

fulbright scholar at the university of nebraska-lincoln. she is a former journalist with bbc persian based in kabul and her piece published monday in "the washington post" is titled "my taliban nightmare came true. i left, but my sister couldn't." in it, she writes -- "since before i left kabul a few days ago, i keep having the same nightmare -- my sister running, sweating and bleeding, followed by taliban fighters on the streets of kabul. then the nightmare came true." nasrin nawa, your sister is a journalist, like you. tell uaps atnewh htoped her on sunday after the taliban seized control and since then. >> she was out of the house like so many other people in kabul. [indiscernible]

my sister went to the bank to take some money but the bank refused to give her money. it was two days before the takeover that banks did not have enough money. we were actually facing difficulties, thinking something bad s happening but not that they would get power. my sister said everyone is shouting. taliban came and should run away. she starts running to the house and could not find her way out of the crowd. she is so scared and crying. so finally, she finds her way to the apartnt but -- my family saying they will start killing

people right now. they tried to call people to help my sister get out of the country and failed because the flight got canceled. nermeen: can you talk about what her situation is now and all the other people you know of who are trying to leave kabul, trying to leave afghanistan? >> they are totally hopeless and stuck at their houses. they do not dare to go out. the only hope is right now the normal life resume in afghanistan -- not everyone can get the emergency opportunity

that the united states offered to people in afghanistan. my sister just told me an hour ago that -- another province that they heard you can just go out to the airport, but it is not easy. there stuck in the house and cannot find a way to the airport. it is just violence right now. amy: nasrin, can you describe what your sister witnessed once she was at home to your neighbor's house and one of the men in the house? >> yeah. last night she was not able to sleep. she sent me a video of her neighbors.

there are like four or five fighters with guns and the person is just a civilian without any guns, so they searched his property and beat him and pushed him into the house and locked the doors. so we don't know what happened after that, but it is terrifying because i am thinking what if my sister is the next person? i begged her to leave her house for a while and find -- we are almost non-with everyone in the city. they can find our house. engage with so many important things like political things. after that, they will start

strategically to find people o are against them and who do not accept the rules and regime. amy: before we go, you wrote, "i called my sister and told her to go home and hide all of our identity cards. then i told her that she needed to destroy her guitar. she said her hands were unable to do that but i pleaded with her. i told her the taliban's hands are capable of killing you for your art." the taliban insists they're different now, that they won't be attacking women, that they won't be attacking opponents. what is your response to this? >> they are attacking people. they are attacking women. they are not seen by the world because there's not enough coverage. there's not enough courage to do so.

they are afraid. we cannot see the tv channels are doing the same thing that they were even doing last wee they want to survive. bad things are happening. the taliban are doing exact the same thing that they saiin the previous regime, so it doesn't make any sense that they say and claim something so ridiculous that they won't bother anyone. how can you believe when you're beaten disputing everyone on the streets -- how can you believe that when they are beating everyone on the streets? they are trying to show off their personality and police, trying to have courtesy, but it is not real. it is a tactical thing. i believe the taliban last week

who killed a comedian, raided journalist houses in recent days. how can they change? what were they fighting for? if they were changed, they would come to us and tell us, "let's share the coverage. we respect you. we won't bother you and will accept you as you are." if you're able to do a deal with them without the international -- [indiscernible] we invested everything to have negotiation and now we see it was just like a game. everything was planned differently. amy: nasrin nawa, thank you for

being with us, fulbright scholar now at the university of nebraska-lincoln and a former journalist with bbc persian based in kabul. she left just on friday. her new piece we will link to at democracynow.org for "the washington post," headlined "my taliban nightmare came true. i left, but my sister couldn't." next up, we speak with two more afghan women. another also a former journalist. they have both fled their country. a former afghan refugee and "new york times" reporter in kabul. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "pashto lullaby" by deeyah. i am amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we continue now to look at afghanistan and conditions for women, reporters, and those working for peace. on wednesday, afghan news

presenter shabnam dawran said in a video shared on twitter that she was prohibited by the taliban from returning to work. >> my name is shabnam dawran. i have beea journalist for s years. with the courage that i had in me, i went to the office to start my work but the current system soldiers did not give me permission to start my work. they told me that the regime has changed, you're not allowed, go home. i am asking the world to help me because my life is in danger. amy: for more, we are joined by two more afghan women who have left their country. both of them are now in toronto, canada. mariam safi left afghanistan just a few weeks ago in july. she is the founding executive director of organization for policy research & development studies, drops, and the co-director of the afghanistan mechanism for inclusive peace.

and we are joined by zahra nader, a freelance afghan journalist who was a reporter for "the new york times" in kabul and is now based in toronto where she is a ph.d. student in gender & woman's studies at york university. she was born in bamiyan, afghanistan, and lived in iran as a refugee for seven years, returning to afghanistan in 2003. she fled her native home in 2017 due to mounting dangers she faced as a woman, a reporter, and a member of the hazara -- an ethnic minority who have for decades been targeted by militants, including the taliban and islamic state. we welcome you both to democracy now! mariam safi, you left but were planning to return. soon to afghanistan. talked about what has happened and what you're hearing back in afghanistan right now with your organization and the people who work for it. >> the situation in afghanistan

at the present moment is one that is endowed with frustration , uncertainty, fear. that is the perception and that is the sentiment we are hearing from those we are in contact with on the ground. and what had happened and transpired in the last few days is something we really had not anticipated. it was a complete shock and disbelief to all of us. we felt there would be some space for a political settlement. and while things were getting very difficult under the last few months between the negotiating artese, we felt there was some degree of space there for negotiations result in a positive solution. so what has happened has certainly caught everyone by

surprise. amy: could you clarify, what would you say would be a positive resolution? what did you hope the negotiations would accomplish? >> well, wt all members of afghan civil society and afghans in afghan society hoped for was a political settlement. a political settlement to bring an end to the violence in afghanistan for so very long. a political settlement would have looked like a situation where both parties would come together. of course there would be compromises on the one hand, but there would also be certain promises and commitments -- particularly in protecting the gains of the last 20 years. that is what we were hoping to achieve. it was never one victory over

another, and we all realized i military solution to this conflict does not exist. so a political settlement would have looked as one that would have protected the gains of the last 20 years for afghans. but as you see, that did not happen. nermeen: zahra nader, could you talk about your own experience having fled twice as a refugee? you worked as a journalist there . can you say what you have learned about how the taliban has been responding to the attack on journalists and afghanistan just in the last few days? >> thank you. thank you for having me here. i have been a refugee twice. it is very, very hard to leave as a refugee. the first time, my family fled to iran.

did not have any rights to education come to do what other children were doing. that was very hard. seeing that happening again in afghanistan is really painful for me. it is just awful that every d it is happening in afghanistan. about my work in afghanistan. i worked around seven years edger -- is a journalist in afghanistan. i got focused on one issue. i wanted to cover the story of afghan women, to see what they're doing in their lives and what is their problems, the problems they are dealing with. in all those years, i have never imagined we would again be under the taliban. talking to my friends by come in afghanistan, my journalist

friends, prosecutor friends, friends that worked in the government and different levels and they are all saying it seems our lives were positive for 20 years and now we are going back and starting from 2000 and one where we lived. that is very heartbreaking right now for me to listen to what they're going through right now. this is how i am feeling right now. my family and everybody is at home. the fear of -- the fear i had when i was a refugee is a six-year-old girl fleeing afghanistan in the back of a car and i am now seeing that happening at the airport. lots of children dragging, you know. what would happen even seeing, the experiencing of these people in afghanistan is a trauma that

will never leave them. the experience i had, that fear is a refugee still exists in me. i have fear in my heart. it comes back to me and makes life harder for me. i can't imagine it will happen for a new generation in afghanistan. amy: i want to ask you about being part of the hazara minority and talk about where you were born, bamiyan. known by the world because the taliban blew up the bamiyan statues carved in 2001. there were blown up by the taliban on orders from the leader at the time omar after the taliban government declared they were idols. they also destroyed part of the statue of the hazara leader, who

they had killed in 1995. can you talk about the taliban 2.0 that people are talking about today back to then and you as a hazara, how you feel about what is happening to your people in afghanistan? >> i feel that they would be definitely marginalized, at least for the past 20 years they received some rights. they could get an education. they worked. the systematic discrimination in afghanistan, but it was much better. but now i feel with the taliban, more laws and one particular ethnicity.

would not allow other groups being part of the regime. they are saying it, but i am fearful of how people, all people of afghanistan, would be under the taliban. basically, they are the people coming from behind mountains that they spit on their life fighting and now they're here to rule our society. i am very can a very fearful of how that will unfold for our future, the future of our country. specifically talking about the hazara problem, we have tried a lot to tell the community there is a lot of discrimination, systematic discrimination against the hazara and afghanistan but it was not getting much response. but now it is going to get even worse because this group in

afghanistan, they do not care about human rights, they don't care about women's rights, and they do not care about hazara or any minority peoples rights. they would do anything they can -- they would do what they did in the 1990's. all of those are the pictures coming up to us. very, very traumatizing moments for all of us. nermeen: we hear a lot in the press year and elsewhere about what is happening in kabul. could you talk about what you know of the changes that have occurred in rural areas as well as urban areas and the distinction between the two? the reports are the taliban has been advancing across rural areas for much of the last year and the government has really only in control of urban areas.

can you talk about that? >> i think -- disable big areas were under the control of the taliban while urban was under the control of the government, that is not entirely true. yes, the taliban did control certain parts of the country. there are studies that showed about 11% in may, study that showed 11% of the population lived der taliban control territory. so that is 11%. this was in may. there were districts that were contested and there were districts and a good majority those under the control of the afghan government. that was a scenario, and that is rapidly changed now, obvioly,

but in afghanistan in the last 20 years, a lot of the development efforts have been focused and centered on cities an urban areas. so urban areas have benefited a lot from the international intervention, whereas rural areas, particularly villages and districts, provincial city centers, have been better but rural areas and villages and districts have barely seen that amount of development. that is particularly because of either violence, corruption, and other factors that have prevented that from taking place. so it is a mixed bag. i would say we have to be careful when looking at the

rural and urban divide in afghanistan. there are many drivers of conflict in afghanistan and there are many factors that have played a role in the last 20 years and how this divide has sort of increased and why. amy: i mean, the president leaving was a shock to so many, right? ashraf ghani. it wasn't so much the taliban seized power in kabul as they entered this vacuum. it wasn't that the afghan government, that the military was fighting them, they just left despite the billions the u.s. military had put into them. talk about that shock and why you think that the afghan government under ashraf ghani was so unpopular.

can you talk about it being, for example, what our next guest will talk about, i kleptocracy? >> i would say -- a lot of what has transpired in the last five days, particularly on sunday when the president does we all heard president ghani had left. i think it is too early at this present moment to say exactly what to place and i do not want to speculate, but i will say the afghan national security forces, and icy reports that suggested they basically sick -- surrendered the country, it was a great problem in leadership, core leadership -- poor leadership has been a factor of where we are today. there is no doubt in that. in t afghan national security

forces themselves fought against all odds in these last few years , particularly in the last few months. when there is no reinforcement, when there -- when they're not getting enough resources and their left to both fight and defend for themselves, it becomes very difficult. the afghan national security forces, even the development of the forces in the last 10 to 12 years i would say is when this force was actually built when it was supposed to have been n buit in 2001. it was the u.s. that took the responsibility of building the afghan national security forces under the lead program. and while they built a national secure force in large numbers, is was a force they were both building capacity while also teaching literacy at the same time.

and in this process, there were a lot of areas where dependency upon the u.s. forces and nato forces was something that was established. so there was a dependency on certain resources needed from the united states and other forces. so the dependency was there. it was still a young army, at the end of the day, and building this army itself faced a lot of difficulties in the last few years. i think they fought -- i did what they could, but unfortunately, i would say the leadership failed them and then that is what studies will show you and that is what reports in media would show you, that it certainly was a failure of leadership. amy: thanks for being here, founding executive director of organization for policy research & development studies, drops, and the co-director of the afghanistan mechanism for

inclusive peace. zahra nader, student, speaking to us from canada. next up, "the afghanistan papers: a secret history of the war." what the u.s. government over the past 20 years did not tell us about what they were doing in afghanistan. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we continue to look at the situation in afghanistan and the u.s. withdrawal. on wednesday, president biden defended his administration's handling of the withdrawal in an interview on abc news with george stephanopoulos. >> no mistakes? es. biden: no, i don't think it could've been handled in a way -- we're going to go back in hindsight and lo, but the idea that somehow there is a way to have gotten it without chaos ensuing, i don't know how that happens. amy: just last month on july 8, biden rejected the idea of a taliban takeover in afghanistan was inevitable. several top democrats have vowed

to probe biden's afghanistan exit strategy. a report from the special inspector general for afghanistan reconstruction said the u.s. "struggled to develop and implement a coherent strategy" over the last 20 years. in 2020, while on the campaign trail, then-candidate biden acknowledged u.s. officials had lied to the public about the war in afghanistan. for more, we're joined by craig whitlock, investigative reporter for "the washington post" who has long covered afghanistan and is the author of the book "the afghanistan papers: a secret history of the war." it looks at how the past three presidents -- trump, obama, and george w. bush -- deceived the public year after year about the longest war in u.s. history. welcome back to democracy now! i mean, the whole debate and congressional congress now saying they're going to look at this exit strategy obscures what

the u.s. did in afghanistan for the past 20 years. and that is what you so deeply look at in "the afghanistan papers." first, describe what they are. >> there are hundreds of interviews, notes, and transcript of interviews that the special inspector general for afghanistan conducted with key officials who played an important role in the war over 20 years. these were documents that were not made public. "the washington post" had to sue the government to obtain them under the freedom of information act stop it took three years. what they show is the public narrative was u.s. was always making progress on these president said we were going to win the war, extremely pessimistic. said they did not have a campaign plan, did not have a strategy, did not understand afghanistan, thought the war was

not winnable. nermeen: craig, i guess the critical question is, given all of the research you did and what you found revealed in the afghanistan papers, re-surprised at all that afghanistan fell so quickly to the taliban? >> i was surprised it happened so quickly. that said, i think it was pretty obvious the afghan government really did not have any popular support or very little. certainly well-documented the afghan security forces, the army d the paralitaryolice,ad real problems that the u.s. government had tried -- spent more than $85 billion to train and equip this force and yet it was barely functioning at the end. i think what we saw in the last week were the commander after commander in the afghan forces so which way the wind was blowing, used -- new the afghan

government wasn't going to last, and switched sides quickly either under the threat of taliban or offers of money. they had to suffer under 40 years of civil war were fighting outside powers. to survive, that it quickly judge who was going to win and how they should end up on the right side. amy: craig whitlock, there are two issues here over this 20 years. if you could take us back through time -- again, what we are not getting is the brutality of the u.s. war and occupation and the taliban continually saying their main goal was to throw out the foreign invader. talk about what the was covered up. then there is the issue of the corruption of the government and the u.s. involvement with that, the afghan government. but the record of the massacres,

working with warlords, the oppression caused by the occupation. >> it is not a pretty history, the u.s. involvement in afghanistan. involvement with the warlords. part of the problem was the population of afghan salt the u.s. aligned themselves with the warlords with brutal records in the 1990's and certainly a long and deep history of corruption. here was the united states partnering with them. frankly, spending billions of dollars on the afghan government, which went into the warlords pockets. the population did not see the united states as bringing democracy and equal rights to afghanistan, they saw them as propping up a corrupt and illegitimate government. the taliban had a very brutal record. i don't mean to minimize that in

any regard, particularly how they treat women and girls. but in the end, many afghans, particularly in rural areas, said, look, we don't like the taliban but we really hate our own government. we see the taliban as afghans. they a more sympathetic to our religious beliefs. they are not here to help with thforeigners. i think at the end, a lot of people saw the taliban as the lesser of two evils. amy: let's go back to the very beginning when george w. bush invaded afghanistan. in that period when rumsfeld was the defense secretary, you had the taliban saying they would surrender in december if mohammed omar was allowed to live with dignity in kandahar were they established the taliban. rumsfeld said no. you have even before that in october when afghanistan said,

we will hand over osama bin laden, bush said no. >> i do think the taliban offers of bin laden were a bit overstated. they had the opportunity to do that and i think they were not sincere. the question i think you're raising, which is important, there were opportunities to try and bring the taliban into the fold after the u.s. invasion in 2001. the taliban government was toppled relatively quickly. in retrospect, that was the moment to try to bring these factions together and afghanistan, to try to have some kind of consensus of a political system. instead, the u.s. thought it wanted clear-cut military victory. not just defeated the taliban, but vanquish them and lumped them in the same boat as al qaeda and terrorist groups. it saw no need to negotiate with them. the problem is over time the

taliban gradually came back because unlike al qaeda, they were woven into the fabric of afghan society. this was not a group you could eliminate, vanquish. they had too much support in certain parts of the country. i think that was the miscalculation the americans made from the beginning, was they need to bring stability to afghanistan you had to bring all the actors into the fold. nermeen: can youalk about at you think the responsibility is now of the u.s. to people and afghanistan, not onlyn terms of refugees and humanitarian aid but also the fact broader humanitarian aistanc the donor economy is und threat now with the u.s. withdrawal in such a large part of afghanistan is still dependent on donor aid, the government as well as the armed forces? so that as well as the's taliban record on opium production, with

the taliban did when they were last in power from 1996 and what you expect them to do now, afghanistan think is still the largest or second-largest producer of heroin in the world. >> the largest by a longshot. these are great points, nermeen. the fact afghanistan's economy has been propped up by international aid -- frankly, also by the opium trade. the war economy in the drug economy is what has kept afghanistan going for a number of years. now of the setting of the taliban in charge, recharged. what are the united states and other donor nations going to do about it? are they going to cut off funding? that can hurt the afghan people even more. it is a real paradox and challenge right now to figure out how is the world going to do with the taliban? like it or not, they took control of the country right now an afghanistan is still very

fragile. house is this going to play out not just in aid come everybody focused on what is going on in the airport in kabul, but how this can play out over long-term. i don't think anyone has a clear answer to that. nermeen: also the fact with what you just talked about earlier and others have been talking about, too, the fact the afghan security forces really -- relinquished control, surrendered so quickly, there's also the question of what else they surrender, namely all of the military equipment they had as a result of the u.s. where is that military equipment and you see it now all falling into the hands of the taliban? >> it did all fall into the hands of the taliban. the u.s. try to get as much blood treat equipment as it could out of afghanistan -- try to get as much military equipment out of afghanistan in july. anything that was not nailed down needed in defense of

afghanistan was taken out. the united states been over $85 billion over 20 years to train and equip the afghan army and police and pay their salaries. but there is still much under control of the taliban. what are they going use it for? to consolidate the control of the country. it is breathtaking to think how much the united states spent to create a standing army and police force in afghanistan, and that is either gone up in smoke or now arming the taliban. amy: we're talking to craig whitlock, author of the new book "the afghanistan papers." the intercept reports military stocks outperformed the stock market overall by 58% dream the afghanistan war, including boeing, raytheon, lockheed

martin, northrop grumman, and general dynamics. "from the perspective of some of the most powerful people in the u.s., the afghanistan war may have been an extreme your success, notably the boards of directors of all five defense contractors and afghanistan." if you can talk further about -- i mean, the u.s. -- i'm sure it is more than this -- "the l.a. times" thing at a cost of $83 billion come afghan security forces collapsed so quickly and completely the ultimate beneficiary of the american investment has so quickly and completely turns out to be the taliban. so the u.s. does exactly what they have. in the afghanistan papers, what did you find in the relationship of military contractors also driving this were ford? -- war forward? it wasn't just bush. it was obama and trump.

biden was vice president the time and said, yes, have been lied to, the american people. the height of spending during the war was during the obama administration, 100,000 u.s. troops sent to afghanistan in 2010, 2011, 20 12. that is when we were spending this enormous amount of money in afghanistan. not just to wage the work, but to try to build up the country. frankly, over go the afghanistan papers" shows far more money than the country could possibly hope to absorb, just the capacity to use this money. a lot of the money was siphoned off i corruption, by afghan warlords, by defense contractors, and by defense contractors, that could be anything from major american contractors who were profiting off the war to local contractors in afghanistan, international ones who provide supplies,

munition, food, transport. the war was an expensive war to wage in a landlocked country halfway around the world. the u.s. bit mor than a trillion dollars on operations there. there's not a whole lot to show but a lot of people whether it is afghans or defense contractors were frankly warlords and the taliban, profited off that for 20 years. nermeen: lastly, on your book that is out this month, "the afghanistan papers," in addition to the reporting you published in "the washington post" for the book you obtained access to copies of oral interviews with senior mitary and government officials documenting their perception of the afghanar as it unfolded. could you speak specifically about the role of general mark milley who is now the current chairman of the joint chiefs of staff? >> he has a long history in

afghanistan. i believe he was first there in 2003. he was a colonel then. ironically, his job was to help create an afghan army and police force. he was helping to oversee the training to really build the afghan army from scratch. at the time and is interview, he is sort of optimistic. he says this will work, here are some of the challenges but the united states can make this happen. over the years, he rose through the ranks and kept rising up to the chain of command until now he is the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. it is interesting. he has such a long history in afghanistan but in public, he was always extremely optimistic. in 2013, was the deveney commander of u.s. nato forces in afghanistan and we talked about winning and victory and how good the afghan security forces were.

even as the u.s. started to withdraw during the obama administration, mark milley was among the generals who cap threatening -- complete faith in the afghan forces. reports they were not doing that well, millie always vouched for them in public. yet the afghanistan papers show u.s. army officials knew there were fundamental flaws with the afghan security forces and did not have any faith it would be able to defend their country. that is the paradox we see again and again in the afghanistan papers, the generals kept telling the american people that were making progress, that they would emerge victorious in the end. and in private, many of the same people were saying they did not see a good outcome, that this war was not winnable, and the truth was relieving help from the u.s. people. amy: craig whitlock, thank you for being with us, investigative

reporter for "the washington post" and author of the new book "the afghanistan papers: a secret history of the war." it is out at the end of the month. that does it for our show. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! q/

♪ ♪