09/13/21 09/13/21 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> if they had oy waitedntil toda thereould nowe 40 41 pple stl alivin ts univse of ou. theyod n wait cause these mewere expdable. guardsprisoner had no meaning in the scheme of things of our wte totalitarian world. amy: 50 ars ago tay, new york sta trooperraided t attica state pson in n york

viently puown bellion by proners through a hazbang commit police killed, nine prisoners and 10 guards. the state cover-up of the mass killing began that day, september 13, 1971. we will air on suppressed testimony of attica survivors who were tortured by guds. >> ty beat me. [indisrnible] spn me. amy: we wi speak wh thre guests tyrone sved the upring, dad rothenrg went attica to negotiate on behalf of the prisoners, and michael j. hull, director of the new hbo max commandery "betrayal at attica." all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!,

democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the united states marked the 20th anniversary of the september 11 attacks with somber memorials across the country. saturday's memorial service new york began with a moment of silence at 8:46 a.m., the moment the first of two planes struck the twin towers of the world trade center. relatives then read the names of the victims of the attacks. president joe biden and vice president kamala harris were in attendance. ahead of the memorial, biden released a video message calling for national unity. pres. biden: to the families of the 2977 peoplerom more than 90 nations killed on september 11, 2001 in new york city, arlington, virginia, and shanksville, pennsylvania, and the thousand more who were injured, american the world

commemorate you and your loved ones. pieces of your soul. we honor all of those who risk and gave her lives in the minutes come hours, years afterwards. amy: later on saturday, vice president harris joined president biden at the flight 93 national memorial in shanksville, pennsylnia. vice pres. harris: in america, our diversity is our strength. at the same time, we saw after 9/11 how fear can be used to sew division in our nation. those targeted because of how they looked or worshiped. amy: biden and harris also visited arlington, virginia, to lay a wreath at the site of the 9/11 attack on the pentagon. meanwhile, the fbi has released the first of several previously classified documents examining connections beeen saudi citizens and two of the 9/11 hijackers.

the first document provided no conclusive links between prominent saudis and the attackers, khalid al-mihdhar and nawaf al-hazmi. 15 of the 19 hijackers were saudi citizens, and families of 9/11 victims have long suspected senior saudi officials provided funding and assistance for the attacks. former president george w. bush to comparisons within the january 6 insurrection at the u.s. capitol. he spoke at the 9/11 memorial in shanks fell, pennsylvania. pres. bush: there is little overlap between violent extremists abrdnd at home. disdainful in the sregar for human life and their determination to defile national symbols. they are children of the same foul spit. it is our continuing duty to

confront them. amy: the lord are snowboarders launched killed an estimated 900 29,000 people in afghanistan, pakistan, rectum is there, and elsewhere according to the cost of war project which estimates those wars came with a price tag of roughly eight chilean dollars. in related news, after an internal investigation, the u.s. capitol is recommending disciplinary action in six cases for failures during the january 6 insurrection but no criminal charges will be brought against officers. that includes one officer who was filmed posing for selfies. top security officials are expected to approve a request by the capitol police to reinstall fencing around the federal building ahead of the far-right "justice for j6 rally next saturday" organized by trump supporters. fencing erected after the insurrection was removed in july. in afghanistan, the new taliban government has said women will be permitted to study at

universities but that schools would be segregated, a dress code would be imposed, and school curricula would be reviewed. women and girls had been banned from schools and colleges under taliban rule between 1996 and 2001. a recent u.n. report found the number of girls in elementary schools has increased from almost none to 2.5 million in the years after the taliban lost power. the u.n. is reporting at least four people were killed during recent protests against taliban rule and that the taliban had conducted house-to-house searches for people who participated in the protests. the u.n. human rights agency also warned of increasing intimidation and violence against journalists. meanwhile, a "new york times" investigation finds the u.s. drone strike that killed 10 people, seven of them children, in the final days of the military withdrawal, likely killed a worker for a u.s. aid

group and that there was no evidence of an isis bomb in the targeted vehicle. zemari ahmadi, who had applied for refugee resettlement in the united states, was likely transporting people to and from work. this all comes amid a growing humanitarian and displacement crisis. many afghans who fled their towns for kabul as the taliban seized control are still living on city streets and parks. >> there was a war. there was bloodshed. houses were destroyed. women became widows. children were orphan. because of these problems, everyone was displaced and came to kabul. amy: a florida appeals court has sided with republican governor ron desantis, upholding his ban on school mask mandates while challenges are played out in lower courts. the ruling reverses a previous decision which has halted the ban. on friday, the education department said it is looking into whether the florida mask

mandate ban was violating the rights of students with disabilities who are more vulnerable to severe infection from covid-19. similar investigations are underway in other states. meanwhile, in texas, attorney general ken paxton said friday he's suing at least six school districts that defied governor greg abbott's order banning mask mandates at public schools. here in new york city, around one million students are returning to school for in-person classes today for first time in 18 months. as pfizer biontech is expected to seek approval for covid-19 vaccine for children five and older, new research by the centers for disease control show that unvaccinated people are 11 times more likely to die from cover 19 than vaccinated people and more than 10 times more likely to be hospitalized. in lebanon, a new government has been announced over one year after the devastating explosion at the port of beirut, which killed over 200 people and led to resignation of then-prime minister hassan diab.

lebanon's richest man, najib mikati, will serve as prime minister, a post he has already held twice before. lebanon is in the midst of growing social unrest and what the world bank says is one of the worst economic depressions in modern history. authorities in southern spain have evacuated 2000 people from their homes in andalucían villages as a massive wildfire fanned by high temperatures and strong winds grew to some 15,000 acres. the fire is so large it spawned its own weather systems, with thick smoke creating pyrocumulus clouds that threatened to set -- spark new blazes. some evacuees had no time to gather up belongings as they fled. >> this is inhuman. nothing like this has ever been seen. the flames of the fire as they ran through the mountains, it was spectacular. amy: last month, the region recorded spain's all-time high

temperature record of 117 degrees fahrenheit. in california, thousands of firefighters are battling at least a dozen large fires, whipped up by high winds and bone dry vegetation. fire officials say this year's season is on pace to equal, or top, 2020's record fire season. in the pacific, super typhoon chanthu struck the northern philippines on saturday, before grazing taiwan and bringing strong winds and heavy rain to eastern china. at its peak, the storm was the equivalent of an extremely dangerous category 5 hurricane, with sustained winds of 160 miles per hour. parts of the texas coast are under a hurricane watch as tropical storm nicholas is forecast to gain in intensity ahead of its landfall late today. meanwhile, torrential monsoon rains in northern pakistan triggered landslides and destroyed homes sunday, leaving at least 17 people dead. a record number of environmentalists, land and water defenders, were

assassinated in with advocates 2020 in the global south disproportionately targeted with violence. that's according to an annual report by global witness, which documented at least 227 environmental activists were murdered last year. more than a third of the killings involved indigenous leaders. colombia, mexico, the philippines, and brazil recorded the most murders as local communities resist mines, deforestation, and other destructive industries that contribute to the climate crisis. the report says -- "as the climate crisis deepens, forest fires rampage across swathes of the planet, drought destroys farmland, and floods leave thousands dead, the situation for frontline communities and defenders of the earth is getting worse." in brazil, indigenous women led a protest in the capital brasilia friday ahead of a much-anticipated brazilian supreme court decision that could undermine -- if

thousands of indigenous people can reclaim ancestral lands stolen from them. if the high court rules against indigenous communities, rights defenders warn it could worsen an onslaught of aggressive mining on sacred land. this is one of the protesters. >> we are here to join the fight. they have invaded her territory. we are here to reclaim our territory. amy: "the new york times" reports guinean soldiers were being trained by u.s. special army forces last weekend when they staged a coup that ousted former president alpha condé, replacing him with a military leader. the u.s. has denied involvement in the coup, despite training those who carried it out. guinea holds major mineral deposits,ncluding gold, iron ore, and bauxite, and china is its biggest trading partner. last week, the economic community of west african states suspended guinea following the military coup. in burma, at least 20 people

have been killed in a new wave of violent clashes between militias and burmese security forces following the february military coup that ousted the country's democratically elected government. since the coup, at least 1080 people have been killed by the military junta and over 6000 arrested. this week the united nations is holding its 76th general assembly where it could decide whether burma's military junta or its civilian government will be recognized for a seat at the u.n. the united nations atomic agency and iran said they reached a deal sunday to allow international inspectors into some of iran's nuclear sites and to reset equipment for monitoring them. the two parties also said they will continue talks about iran's nuclear program. the development means tehran will likely avoid censure by the agency a renewed hope that the 2015 nuclear deal could still be restored. the u.s. unilaterally withdrew from the landmark deal in 2018

under president trump. north korea says it has carried out tests on strategic long-range cruise missile, which can travel as far as 930 miles. the announcement came just ahead of a meeting between nuclear envoys from south korea, japan, and the u.s. are set to meet to discuss north korea's nuclear weapons program. back in the u.s., president biden is campaigning in california today alongside governor gavin newsom, one day before voting ends in a right-wing recall effort to remove newsom from office. his main challenger is conservative talk radio host larry elder, who wants to repeal covid public health measures, does not believe in combating climate change, and was a mentor to trump's xenophobic adviser stephen miller. and in chile, thousands of people took to the streets of santiago saturday to mark the 48th anniversary of the u.s.-backed military coup on september 11, 1973, against the democratically-elected socialist president salvador allende. allende was killed that day as

chilean armed forces bombed and stormed into the presidential palace, la moneda, unleashing a brutal dictatorship under augusto pinochet for the next 17 years. protesters also marched to santiago's main cemetery to honor the victims and survivors of pinochet's dictatorship. >> i come to this march every year because of the large amount of comrades and prints that were annihilated by the fascist coup in 1973. dozens of people who i knew from the university, for my job, and are still missing today were killed by the scandals in uniform. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. when we come back, 50 years ago today, new york governor nelson rockefeller called out state troopers who opened fire on an attica prison uprising, killing 39 people. the ultimate dead tally, 10

guards and 29 prisoners. today we ere long suppressed testimony of attica survivors that were tortured by guards and speak with one of the attica brothers, negotiator and film maker who helped uncover what really happened. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "attica blues" by archie schepp. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. today we spend the hour marking the 50th anniversary of the deadliest prison uprising in the history of the united states. a state cover-up of the mass killing began that day. we will air long suppressed testimony of survivors who were tortured by guards and speak with one of the survivors, as well as a negotiator and filmmaker who helped uncover what really happened. a warning to our listeners and

viewers, today's show will include graphic, painful, brutal inscriptions and images. yes, 50 years ago today, september 13, 1971, new york governor nelson rockefeller waged war on the men held in attica state prison in western new york, ending a four day prison uprising. the rebellion started on september 9, 1971, when prisoners overpowered guards and took over much of attica to protest the conditions at the maximum-security prison. at the time, prisoners spent most of their time in their cells and got one shower per week. days of tense negotiations followed in the prison yard, and the rebellion was on its way to being resolved through diplomacy. on the morning of september 13, governor rockefeller ordered state troopers to storm the prison. through a haze of tear gas, police opened fire, killing 29

prisoners and 10 hostages. three prisoners and a guard were killed by prisoners in the days before the retaking. in all, there were 43 deaths. this is a trailer for a new documentary called "betrayal at attica" on hbo max that examines the hidden history of what really happened in the attica uprising through the men who lived it, the attica brothers, and their defense attorney elizabeth fink. she died in 2015. the film draws on an archive of evidence that was once owned by liz fink, available now for the first time. >> i shouldn't say th. i exopriatedt from thes

e chiecounsefothe proners, t plaintis. we a at theoint n where ey are refusing todmithey ve all tse fil. and ty are lyg about at they he. it is all going to be blown up because i ok it all and also because of you. am: in the documentary "betyal at attica," prisoners describe how they were tortured when the uprising was brutally suppressed. these are actually depositn interviews from the 1974 civil suit against the state of new york filed by the attica brothers legal defense. in this clip, frank "big black" smith, who became a spokesperson of the prisoners and helped protect the hostages, describes what happened to him. a warning, his answer and the

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3-6 hoursall day. >> a day docracy n! is oking r feback fropeople who appriate the closed captioni. e-ma your coents to outreachemocracyw.org or mail theto decracy no p.o.ox 693 w york, w york 113. . yes. i ied to g them o me. legs we numb. could no walk. they tedo drugd me an get me in e hallwa i had to go through what everyone else was going through. amy: that was frank "big black" smith, who survived the brutal state suppression of the 1971 attica uprising, 50 years ago today, in a clip from the new documentary "betrayal at attica," which brings to light new evidence about what really happened. big black said the officers put

a football under his chin and told him if it dropped, they would kill him. he went on to fight for justice in a civil suit for the prisoners and also pushed for compensation of guards' families. big black died in 2004. for more, we are joined by tyrone larkins, who was incarcerated in upstate new york's attica correctional facility at the time of the uprising. he was 23 years old and shot three times. after 29 years of incarceration, tyrone was released via parole in 1997 with a college education through marist college. he is also featured in a new showtime documentary called "attica" by stanley nelson. it just premiered at the toronto international film festival. tryone larkins, welcome to democracy now! this is a painful time i'm sure for you, even now, half a century later.

can you start off even before september 9, 1971 when the prison rebellion began and describe the prison conditions at attica and the political climate at the time? what led to this uprising? >> give me a second. hearing the overview of frank or voice and what happened, well. it took me back 50 years ago today. let's make note that this happened exactly 50 years ago today on a monday morning. and as i was on my way to where i was going to do this taping at, i seen a cloudy sky and it reminded me of september 13, 1971.

i am a little discombobulated now, but i am ready to go. and your question was, how did it all start? am i correct? amy: yes. how did it all start, even before september 9, the beginning of the prisoner uprising? >> ok. i got to attica, i was transferred to attica in january 1971 from sing sing. when i got to attica, i seem -- i mean, from the time i got off the bus, the and about 40 other people that were transferred seen this was the roughest place i had en in myife. the only time prison guards spe to us was to give us description of the instution to tel us they banged on the wall oncand that means go and

when they bang on the wall with her stictwice, it means to stop. and that basically was the extent of the conversation. you can feel the abruptness and the tightness of the facility in the air. after coming from sing sing which was relatively, i would not stay open, but a little more humane. when i finally got settled into the facility, at my cell, i was given a roll of toilet paper, a bar of soap, and was told that this roll of toilet paper would have to last me for one month and that i would possibly get second bar of soap in two weeks time. d that was it. i should say at this juncture

that attica, prior to the disturbance itself -- and i use the word "disturbance" loosely because we were in the climate of international things that were happening throughout the world. first of all, from ethnic pride since, a lot of the african-american prisoners such as myself adhered to a james brown was singing, "say it loud, i am black and i am proud." they gave us a racial identity as opposed to the adhering to what a nigger's and stop doing what niggers do. and that made us feel good. then you had "hell no we will go" slogans permeating all over the world in regards to the vietnam situation.

so we was getting a certain sense of politicalization and ethnic reality at the same time. and we started hearing to things of that nature. this was counterculture to the things that would be an attica critical -- correctional facility. to give you example of that, the first time i seen it in full operation, the racial divide, was in the summer 1971. it was a hot day. the officers came out into the yard. i s walking in b block at the time. they had a wheelbarrow full of ice and emptied it on the ground and said "white ice" which meant that ice was for the white prisoners. and after they picked their eyes

up, secondill barrow was rolled up and the officers dumped it on the ground and said "black ice" and that was for the black -- no is a people of color, prisoners that was locked up in attica at the time. this caused a definite racial divide. however, i would say in the later part of june, early part of july, when ice was thrown on the ground and depicted white ice and black ice come nobody in the yard could pick it up. no white inmates nor black inmates, no hispanic or indian. nobody would pick up any ice that was depicted for racial -- as a matter fact, the fact the ice was thrown on the ground as

opposed to being left in the wheelbarrow was an insult in itself. in june -- excuse me, ratcheting it up to the end of july, august, should say, pardon me, when george jackson was killed, murdered, as we would like to call it, in same quit and prison -- san quenton prison, that created a unified concern the basically everybody that was in attica, as a matter fact, the day aftehe was killed, it was organized that everybody in the facility would not eat. we had a hunger strike. we went to the mess hall as we were supposed to, picked up the silverware or plastic silverware as they gave out, but nobody

picked up any food. it was extremely quiet. you did not hear nooise, no chatter, nothing. when it was time to go, we left out of the facility, the eating facility, which was known as the mess hall. on september 8, 1971, two guys that was locked up was worsening around in the yard in the a block yard. officersushed over to threaten him to stop, etc. a circle of inmates, a gathering of inmates got a really officers to say, you're not doing anything to anybody, and they backed off. later on that night, the men, the o men w were rsing around, re literallyragged t of the cellsnd beate

all th way ta speciahousing unit. you could hear the cries drought a block yard. ll, thnextay, septemr, thuythat w on the same jailompany o housingompany ere the two gs reulled out of, was coming ck from e messall and ey was tol they were n going tthe yd for their rning reeation. they wer going back to t ceblock. and th was the spark tt stard the whe thi. they took controof block and ok conol basally of the facility i pernally was cking b ock aorking ithmetal shop the nexthing i kw, i see guys fm a block, b blo and c

blk and i ew it was a fullope pris riot. elevad fm a pris right a prisodemonstrion. and know thoords sometimes ople will not le to terchangit. buit was. thmere fac thawe as people that were cfinedook on the situatnf eleing our best and bghtest trepresen u toalk to t admintration the powers that be, theroblems in atta and thae hasome hoages als and we adhered to l the factors at wasnvolved. there s no proem in th yard. oner ratr than ler, had servers me in beuse we ked for peoe fromhe outse to com to the ison itlf

theilevel of partipation ratchete ufrom bei an obsever to beg ou negotiors th the pers at be now,ou know at d not wk out o we becausef what ppenednonday, thimonday, the 50 yrs ago exaly on -- actly onhe monda the 1h, septber 13, 197 i woke up inheorning aer a fiul night of sleing becau of the rain. itas or the rdhat moing. thnext thi i kno i gue it w 80, 9:00, i heard big hecopter hoving ani seen in hoverg over t yard. the aouncemt came, "put your hands on your head, lay down, you will not be harmed."

gas release from the helicopter that literly knocked me to m knees and can my sinuses out. at theame token,he ground all ound me was jumping and shaking. i'm thinking i was in some type of a movie o something, but what was jumping all around me was blets. i took three shots. i fell out but i regained my consciousness. somebody, it was a correction officer or state trooper, was kicking me in my side. i was told "get up" and start crawling and "let's go to the exit to a block door." once i got thrown into a block yard by coection officers or nationaluardsman or state

troopers, i don't know who it was, i was thankful toee there was people with stretchers that came and grabbed me by the nape of my neck and pulled me out of a crowd of other individuals who was lying on top of me, on the side of me, and put me onhe stretcher and took me out of the yard. amy: we are going to -- tyrone, wehought at this moment we would play a clip from "betrayal at attica" which is the actual video deposition of prisoners like yourself and what happened to them after the state troopers opened fire, killing 39 men. among them, prisoners and guards. these clips are extremely graphic and so are the images it shows. >> in 1974, filed 2.8 billi

doars civisuit agast the ate of n york foamages on half of 12081 iates. after ars of day by th appoind jge in prrial scovery positiongot unrway in 11. these tapeare fromhat deposion. theyaveever been avlable to the plic. >> th inmate beg kked in e yard. >> d't rell that. w many times dyou feelou wereit? >> knew ias hit.

wh you're hit le that, e not ying to unt. yowere scared toeath. what on self. was hit the hea the bac my eye cos did u wear gsses at that tim they to them. i glass was tan off. >> did youearhat kd of

languageas beingttered i the yd? emphatic when which, get or the, getone, tt sort o thing. did havefterrds word such a [leep]? >> i did not. i would report it. amy: tyrone larkins, it is utterly painful and in the documentary "betrayal at attica," it goes on and on what happened to these men, also, ur story tt we are hearing today. >> yes. yes. after going to -- well mexico i laid on the stretcher for quite a few -- with quite a few individuals. and the yard that was bit between the giant wall, the hospital, and special housing unit.

as i was coming in and out of consciousness because the pain was great. the pain was great. i seen a line of men that was being escorted or ran like cattle and being beaten with sticks, naked, going to a special housing unit called hbc. the last one i seen, i seen one guy, he fell and a bunch of correction officers was over him and beatg him unl he gotp and continued to run. sorry, i'm a little emotional and imac words may be getting jumbled -- and my words may be getting jumbled. i'm going directly back 50 years. then i was taken to the hospital . i thank god for that because the

medical personnel that took care of me, it was a doctor -- i forget his name. i know you mentioned it. he said he was from memorial hospital. you tell me, look, i'm going to try to fix you up but let me look at thextent of your woun and see what can be done if you need to go to the outside hospital or if i can do procedures here. i guess he felt he could do the local procedures there and in attica because i was taken up immediately to the hospital ward and they started the preliminary examinations, things of that nature, and started the rebuilding of myself. america tyrone larkins, we're going to go to break. will become that, we will be joined by many of -- one of the negotiators was that many believe that the negotiators have been able to continue their work without governor rockefeller calling on the state troopers to open fire, this could have resolved peacefully.

tyrone larkins, formerly incarcerated at attica prison, was shot by state troopers 50 years ago today, september 15, 1971. we will also speak with the hbo max documentary filmmaker of the film "betrayal at attica." stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "attica state" by yoko ono and john lennon. this is democracy now! i'm amy goodman. we are spending the hour marking the 50th anniversary of the deadliest prison uprising in the history of the united states. we're speaking with a formerly incarcerated survivor who was shot many times by state troopers. in a moment we will be joined by one of the negotiators in the lm maker helped uncover the evidence of what really happened. a warning, today show includes graphic, painful descriptions and images. this clip from the new hbo max documentary "betrayal at attica" shows how misinformation spread about how the hostages were killed during the attica uprising. this is new york prison system spokesman gerald houlihan saying the hostages had their throat slashed, and then county medical

examiner dr. john edland who contradicts him. first, we hear from attorneys bill kunstler and liz fink. if ey hadnly wait until toy, tre wouldeow 40 or 41 peole still lot in is unersef ours. they wou not wt because these mewere expenble. guards, priners hado meang in t scheme thingf our white totatarianorld. >> h didhey kill them? >> wl, seval had the throatslashed. i don't ve all t detai. derstand o had che wound. i d'have allhose detls. >> when yoread therontage of book neyork timesi meanthey hav them fighng had hand a the blocksor fo hours. >> theress accepd houhan's

rert of slhebirds buthe xt day dr. johedland announced thtrh. the fir eight aopsies were on the casesdentifieto us a hostas. all eight cases died of gunsh wounds >>onservate republan and was a dtor. so ty brought althese boes toim ad he say theseere all ot. arise like,hat ar you tking abou >> the was no idence of slasheroads. there waone single cuin the ck of onof the nt stop >> they totally attacked him and destroyed him, actually. amy: this is another clip from "betrayal at attica," 50 years ago today, near governor nelson rockefeller called president nixon to update him on the taking oattica. the conversation was recorded on the same machines that brought

down nixon's corrupt administration three years later. this is part of their call. >> i know you had a hard day, but i want you to know i back to the hilt for the judgment. it is right and i don't care what the hell what anyone else has, you had to do it that way because if you had granted amnesty in this case, it would have meant you had prisons in an uproar all over this country. >> that's right. >> to do the right thing. it is a tragedy these fellows were shot, but i want you to know that is my view and i told the troops are not here to back it to the hilt. >> only called you because i wanted to alert you we were going in. when we went in, we could not tell with all 39 hostages would be killed and maybe two or 300 prisoners. that is a pretty big, you know. they did a fabulous job. >> how many -- i only got the

report this morning. what is the latest report? comedy people? >> seven hostages were killed. the guards. it appears now as though quite a few of those were killed prior to this most of and other words, they had been dead. >> you can prove that, can't you? >> the hospital. >> the hospital can. >> catholic hospital, so it is outside our jurisdiction. >> are these primarily blacks? >> the whole thing was led by the blacks. >> all the prisoners killed were blacks? were there any whites? >> i don't have that report. i was a offhand, yes. -- i wouldn't say offhand, yes. we did it only when they were in the process of murdering the guards or when they were attacking our people as they came in to get the guards.

otherwise, we recaptured all the llblocks and so forth witht shting a shot. no troopers were wounded. well, one was in the leg. >> only one trooper was wounded. good. amy: "it really was a beautiful operation," governor nelson rockefeller said on that day. in fact, nelson rockefeller would become vice president under president ford. for more, we are joined by david rothenberg, a member of the attica observers' committee. he was one of the 35 people brought into attica to negotiate on behalf of prisoners. he is founder of "the fortune society," which was relatively new at the time of the uprising. it helped people who got out of prison reintegrate into society. also with us is michael hull, director of the new hbo documentary film "betrayal at attica." it plays this conversation

between president nixon and the new york governor nelson rockefeller. david rothenberg, your thoughts on what happened and why when you were negotiating with so many others between the prisoners in the state rockefeller decided to simply have the troopers opened fire? >> amy, we were brought in as observers. the negotiators were the inmates. some of the observers like bill kunstler and congressman video and tom wicker, little more sophisticated than people like myself who are new in this whole arena. they're giving advice. but what had happened is in the takeover, said earlier that one of the guards had been beaten up and two of the inmates in the takeover. officer quinn during the negotiations, the word came out that officer kueng had died. that changed the whole talk of the negotiations because amnesty was taken off the tle. the irony of that for me and i

always say this, i brought nothing to what happened to t yard that day. i was an observer. what i came away with was life-changing because what the state did is they went in and killed, as we learned, nine of the hostages. they would not continue the negotiations because one guard had died, but they killed the hostages. years later, a man named michael mel who was hired by the state -- malcolm bell who was hired by the state to investigate attica suddenly out of press conference had the state has been lying the whole time. he was a conservative republican , wrote a book called "the turkey trot," and we started communicating and he was giving us chapter and verse. one of theost significant things about this beyond just attica because atca is all us has become a motto -- every time i talk about attica, there's someone who minds become of these men had

committed serious crimes and was dangerous, etc. the irony is people convicted of serious crimes. they went into an atmosphere that nurtured the very behavior that g them in there. there was nothing in attica or much of the prison system around the country th gay pple and opportunity to confront why they arehere and what they could do to lessen the possibility when they go back to their communities. and attica was, as tyrone -- tyrone should be thanked for continuing to be a voice for those who are no longer here to tell the story -- that you don't go into pla and be given one roll of toilet paper a month and feel discussing about yourself when you're going in with self to gated feelings to begin with. and they do everything in the institution -- when tyrone talked about those sticks that they stop and go, i can't say

the world, they were called the n-sticks. th is what the guards called them. they nurtured the hostility on the takeover, two people were killed after the takeover because they were targeted. berkeley had been on the news coverage when the cameras went in have been sh an articulate spokesperson for the inmate perspective and sam was targeted because he had been a political weatherman and had helped with some of the black inmates to break down the differences -- the inmates were kept, as tyrone pointed out, were always kept apart. that is how they kept control, pitting ite agnst bck, puerto ricans in the middle. people like herbert and roger and sam, black and white, said together we are stronger, we can affect change.

to improve the conditions, create opportunities, to have education progrs. that was threatening to an institution that only knew how to run by punishment. so attica, the eventtself is almost a microscopic view of the failure of our criminal justice system. amy: and the conversation between president nixon and the new york governonelson rockefeller? >> well, i have always, from the attica observers committee we met weekly at bill kunstler's house. one thing i come to the conclusion, nelson rockefeller s making choices as he was reconstructing his political image, he wanted to run for president, was perceived as a liberal, was reconstructing -- this was calculad. so the decision to send in troops was all part of the plan to begin with. and it was decided that they

waited until monday morning because they were afraid they were the unrest in the ghetto, as they described it, if they went in on sunday. so they waited until monday morning. they could have taken ov the institution with a gas, mace, and never shot a single bullet. but that was -- herman and tom wicker were on the phone with rockefeller on sunday night imploring and that is when hermann said, there is always a time to die, which became the title of tom wicker's book, a columnt at "the times." they had access to rockefeller and ty pleadewith him, give us more time to talk. and the choice was political. was me in albany. was not made at attica at all. amy: i went to bring michael hull into the conversation, this

new hbo documentary film "betrayal at attica" is horrifying as you use archival footage, some of it never before known. also come the lies, the cover-up. you have david mentioning the conservative republican investigator writing a book ultimately about what he found come in that book called "the attica turkey shoot" by malcolm bell. and you hear tyrone talking about in our last segment, tyrone larkins talking about what happened. why was it so important for you to make this film, michael? >> i spent a lot of time with liz fink. the state of new york has been saying that this evidence does not exist for 50 years. destroyed, whatever it may be.

the state police conducted the retaking of the prison. they also conducted the investigation of themselves. so they started destroying evidence on september 13, 1971. liz managed to find is evidence and she used some of it in the civil trial that she was kind of the leader of, and the state of new york continued to act like this evidence did not exist. the evidence proves exactly what she said all along. what david and tyrone have said, they planned this thing and di exactly with a plan. they wanted a massacre and liz always felt like it was intended to stop protest and it is country. she felt like they were tired of the protest that have been taking place and there not trying to -- they felt like they could murder these men and get away with that. it was more important to stop this rebellion and that there point and was even to protect their own employees. it wasn't just inmates were

murdered. they murder their own employees. all of them were citizens of the state of new york. all of them were supposed to be looked after when we are another by the governor d eachas to kill them instead. so for them to carry all this happen such a cynical amulet but if -- manipulative weight and act like a did not happen, you know, liz was very offended and -- amy: and ultimately won a 12 me until a settlement for the prisoners. frank "big black" smith would also fight for a settlement for the workers, for the prison guards as well. we have 10 seconds, michael. >> liz wanted to make sureveryone can see this evidence because she knew people could see it, they would never believe the lies of the state of new york again. it is been my charge to make sure it is ailable will to people and a the evidence is online. amy: i want to thank you all for being with us, michael hull, director of "betrayal at attica

," and i also want to think david rothenberg, one of the attica observers and founder of the fortune society. and tyrone, formally incarcerated at attica, survived ■@ñ@ñ@ñ

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