>> thousands of migrants are trying to cause from belarus into poland. european leaders accuse russia of using it as leverage. and u. inner countries are behaving inhumanely they say what who will win the tug of war and at what price? this is "inside story." ♪ >> hello and welcome to the show i'm sammy zaydan.

poland says they can't come in. thousands of refugees are trapped between those countries as they try to make their journey further into europe. poland accuses belarus of using the refugees as political pawns. they blame poland for the refugees dire situations. they will threatening to create another migrant crisis on the continent. the european union is threatening even more sanctions against the belarussina government. >> trapped between the woods and a highway in belarus, these people have been walking towards the polish border anxious to enter the european union. >> on the other side, polish security forces in riot gear part of the 12,000 that have been station there had guard

thing frontier preventing hundreds of refugees and migrants from breach thing border. but it is a deadlock that risks igniting on another immigration crisis on the step of the e.u. for months many have be violating the law. the e.u. has accuseed alexander lukashenko of orchestrating wave after wave in asylum seekers in retaliation it imposed in its government over the violent crydowns of the opposition. caught in the middle of this brinkmanship, those attempting to escape the harsh conditions they face themselves with no shelter and by bellarussian state officials. so took the ricks because they heard that others were selling

visas. >> the -- they provide everything. then -- but when you say -- when you say to them, ok. i want to go to mensik. i want to go backing to my country. it's so dangerous. they said no, you should go to pole powe land, belarus. they put the gun to all our heads. >> when said we need to go to man deck. >> so far, the national government has refused help from the frontier agency despite reports of hostile behavior and threats from bella russian forces. and for those stuck in this no man's land there is theres no guarantee how long they would have to face the lemes with little -- the elements with little food or water.

>> most migrants trying to cross from belarus come from the middle east and africa they mainly attempted to pause through poland, latvia and lithuania. the migrants are reportedly being helped to goat the border with the e.u. after flying into mi, nsk. poland beefed up its security and is accused of violating the international rite to asylum by pushing migrants back into the belarus. riot groups have krit sized them for their treatment of the migrant who are dealing with cold temperatures, a lack of food and medical help. let's bring in our guests inside the show. the director of analysis at that time warsawiness you too. in moscow, the lead expert at that time center for actual politics. and peter is editor of brussels

report.e.u. let's start with liliana. what is the perspective from warsaw? did you see that belarus is deliberately is using these migrants? >> first of all, i would like to thank you for the invitation to the program. >> i will answer the question, yes, yes. belarus is rues using those people to design the situation. first of all, poland has always been working for free belarus rues. for us the bella russian society is our friend and will be our friend. >> rhett me present to you the perspective from belarus. they say they created the crisis because they're not observing humane treatment and reception of potential refugees and migrants who just want a safe place in europe.

>> of course. of course. but there are legal ways to enter the european union. they can contact the employees here. they can try to get the visa. but what poland is doing -- we are trying to help those people. but it is not noble this case because -- this is the element of the hybrid war. and this is belarus. he is using those people to try to minimize the situation here. >> let's take that perspective. victor, what do you think of the suggestion that is belarussian authority haves created this crisis for some kind of political pay back because of the dispute between the emptier u., countries like poland and belarus? >> well, we have to look back a little more than a year to see where the roots of this crisis lie.

ms. lukaseveno believes poland and lithuania plaid -- a lead role in the campaign to delegitimize him including from there european continent was in the e.u. after the elections last year, were falsified in his favor. and so he -- he use this is as pay back. and the object of this action continuing the action with migrants from the milled east passing through the russian territory the object of this is to show -- >> our sporters -- >> but also the report suggest that is these are not simply people who are passing through. but there are claims threeness

from countries like poe -- poland and lithuania. they've be organizing. facilitate bust them to the border. this is not a case they say of bell bell -- belarussian authorities simply caught in the milled. >> this allows sponsoring the movement of these migrants from the middle east for examplar iraq, for example, through bellarussina territory and then providing routes for them to enter e.u. countries with lithuania and poland. if the lit lithuanian government would not want this to happen, it would simply not happy. there's no question about it. and so the reason behind it is that the bella russian shot tokers wants to show the duplicity, the supposed duplicity of the polish and

lithuanian yeah attorneys. we spoke a lot about human rights violation. in belarus this year and last year. so bella rush wants to create this -- is creating these incidents to show that poe land and lithuania themselves are violating the rights of these migrant that is want to come through belarus into poland and with lithuania territory. so bellas have actively using what is happening at that time border. and what is happen happening in the temporary -- migrant camps. and it's information campaign. both domestically and the -- ands the campaign that is waging -- as far as foreign countries. but if belarus ever had any hopes of this leading to a

modification or a softening of economic or political sanctions against him. this would simply not work. >> let me jump in. we do want to talk more about what the impact will be in the end. but before we get to that point, i want to bring peter into the discussion. >> peter, are we really looking at a situation in the 21st century of basically human beings many of them women and children. >> being used as political pawns, it's pay back because of a political dispute between countries that they have nothing to do with. >> well, i'm afraid that's indeed the case. and if there were in doubts that the belarus ussian regimes were found. they were escorted into the

bored. it's hard not to deny it for bella ruiz now that it's instrument al rising. >> migration and shortly this -- these people have been lureed with false promises. >> the question is what to to do with this it now. >> to mincing that they are no longer allowed to operate in the e.u. as long as they fly on mincing. of course, only for a shouter period. but that would end this little scheme that is -- i think no longer just hybrid war the far. it is actually on war far. it looks indeed like the belarus sia, in team is creating some space. is let's hope everything keeps it cool because that's very

important r. anchor: to a certain extent has the issue shown add crisis that the e.u. is struggling to die it's struggling to come out with a cow hearn world. that the one hand sacrificed those concerns about national sovereignty and bored. balance that with respect for international obligation toward receiving people who shot to the border and who say, hey, we need protection. we have kids. we have women? >> well, of course legally is .ful whether these people can -- can claim to come from a nonsafe country to belarus. i mean, the same is used when you had an herb shoe between turkey and greece. and now the thing is fundamentally, the european union does not properly control its borders.

and -- and the reason is that if you -- as a -- irregular migrant if unique enter e.u. territory, even if you are denied asai lem. there's a very low chance that she will be sent back. and i think that's -- that's the core issue here. and this is now being abuseed by october toe cats. and there are several ways to deal with that. one of it is denmark and the united king drop trying to do which is to outsource -- the silent processing. it's very hard. burr i think if this would have been taken up at tempt u. level. then the idea to allow people to apply for asylum in the region and then when they get it -- they can -- they can come to europe if not, they are you

know, repatrioted from europe to that reception center. i mean, that kind of a system could indeed settle the situation. >> you've opened up the most important point there about taking your top -- but i want to come back to you in a mommy. but before we go that far i want to bring liliana and ask that this question who is win thing game so far, liliana? liliana: well, i would say they have discussed the issue with la athia and lithuanian authorities. we somehow are doing that. so far. i think all the countries should understand the situation poland is not the end for these

migrants. so what poland is doing, we are protecting the bodice of the european union. we are protect it. so i think that should be stressed out. and also why they are doing it. we should also remember about the fact that european union did not approve the presidential election. he won on 9th aweing last year. right now european leaders are meeting with leaders. he's not handling the situation in a good manner. so he's sending those good people. >> will he prevail? will he bruce any suffering of the line. which were aimposed in june and so on? >> i think that there's still lacking off -- that that's in

the european union. >> personally, i don't see here any area of discussion because we should not discuss anything with terrorists. in this case, i don't see any -- any area to discuss it in the normal way as we do. and for example. european down downon. >> let me bring on victor because you had something to comment on, didn't you? your analysis, basically that this will backfire on mintz? >> it actually makes belarus a singular loser in this situation because first of all there's little chance to put it mildly that the european union is going to soften the sanctions regime that it introduced against belarus fold -- following the last election as this migrant

crisis has proceed. these doubts have evaporated. in fact, if anything, the european union or specific european union countries like what we understand with harsher sections against mintz and so the question arises, is the economic and political damage worth the information campaign that belarus is waging, the propaganda campaign? that's a question for the bella russian authorities to reanswer. >> there is another one. that's in a way russia because as the economic fortunes of belarus decline because of mink's position towards the crisis of this situation, including this crisis. >> russia has economic influence

in belarus increased. because bella -- belarus has to get many source that is it was getting from the e.u. has to somehow get it from -- get those resources from somewhere else. and basically lukashenko at this point can ask for those resource ins russia and to some degree in championship with which belarus has fairly good -- pretty -- i could say pretty good relations. >> and of course, belarus's main sponsor in the last few years has been russia. so essentially this crisis is weakening. it's continuing to waning luka seveno even though he believed that it would strengthen him. >> peter, also is there a weakening of e.u.

influence as victor pointed out perhaps there are russian influence in increases. you said whether there would be any action to take this matter up? this is the latest statement out of the e.u. commission. this is up to the national competence to deal with. it doesn't sound like there's going to be a lot of political will that's at that time level to try to sort out how you handle people at the borders, right? >> well, i'm not so sure, to be honest. of course, when i comes to bored protection that's corrects is a national competition and it should stay in national competence. i don't think we need like a big bureaucracy or anything else. i don't think they could do much fun frankly. but what the european union can do is for example tackle this trait aspect of this particular

crisis, the fact that all the airlines are transporting people from the middle east to -- to europe. and you see a hardening of the stance. austria was one of the more doveish member states to belarus. and they have no harden in their stance. i think we have to make a distinction between sanction that is are intended to punish them because those sanctions are not very successful. and other kind of measures that are needed to sort of protect the integrity of the -- of the european union's borders and we're talking about the second set of measures. but if this continues all your member states will no doubt that they will need to take action, that they will basically put an

end to this chaos. so indeed, i don't think luke -- lukashenko will emerge the winner. it's possible that he will obtain this position. unfortunately, that's what dictators do. have some sort of conflict to have a rally. but then look a at the massive conflict in belarus -- >> could he make some of the same allegations for some of these e.u. countries that they have right-wing government that is see a political interest for them in rallying their public opinion around the sort of of refugee stuff? >> they will use this to increase the popularity. it's not the polish government that is flying people from the middle east to then force them to the border.

this is all a consequence of actions taken by the regime in minsk. >> let me bring in leano and ask this question is there really a whip for countries like poland if lukashenko is weakened but at that time benefit of countries like russia? is there much comfort also? >> well -- yeah, but what we -- i would like to comment very shortly on the previous thing that the information that he has said that i think the issue should be complete apply un -- completely unpolitical because we shouldn't say that the ring wing government is doing another thick. we are protecting our bodice and

that should be point number one. >> but let me jump in and tell you what a lot of human rights groups are saying. a couple of thousand mostly women and children aren't exactly a huge security threat to the continent of europe, are they? >> yes, yes -- >> i mean, they could be a more humane way to deal with this even if war sash doesn't want to have to deal with people being shipped in especially through the use of critical -- >> but we are dealing with those people. we want to help them. but this is the responsibility also of the parents who are teaching those children. so like a huge trip which also cost a lot of much. not even -- not every person in the middle east. not every person in iraq is able to take a huge amount of money. so this should be the thing that need be stressed here.

and of course, such usage of people as as a weapon, and you know, in such conflict, in such a hybrid war, i think it's first one in hybrid history. so i completely agree that it shouldn't be you know, like this. but we as a country, we need to protect our borders. and only our borders, but we are protecting borders of the whole european union in this situation -- >> all right, you've made that point loud and clear. i'm afraid we are out of time. let's thank our guest very much. liliana, victor and peter. and thank you too for watching you can see the show any time by visiting our website aljazeera.com for further discussion go to facebook.com low pressure/ajinside story. you can join the conversation on twitter. our hand is @ajinsidestory.

for now, it's good-bye. ñlñlñlñlñ

sonoko sakai: well, i grew up in a very small town called kamakura, which iabout an hour outside of tokyo. and so i was immersed in the old world, old japan, very artisinal, without even knowing what that word is. they have this craftsmanship. that was the way people lived. you had to know how to work with your hands. and it was an awakening for me as a young child looking at the craftsman's work.