02/02/22 02/02/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> i always knew my blackueer stories uld get banned at some point. once they cut ont it, i knew i would have to go into activist mode. i major shared my voice and my story and, church anytime they put minformation out there about the book and other books

that i counter that by putting the truth out there, which is something we note that america seems to hate. the truth. amy: as school districts and republican-controlled state lawmakers intensify efforts to ban books about race and lgbtq issues from public schools and libraries, we will spend the hour with two award-winning authors who have been targeted in this wave of book banning. first, george m. johnson, the author of "all boys aren't blue." it is a memoir about growing up black and queer. theook has been targeted for removal in at least 14 states. then we speak to the pulitzer prize-winning cartoonist art spiegelman. a tennessee school board recently voted to ban his graphic novel "maus" about his parents surviving the holocaust. >> is the narrative of my mother and father's expenses as jews in

poland and how that passed on to because a story and be trying to understand that story as a cartoonist by giving it visual shape. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. russian president vladimir putin made his first public statements on the situation at the ukraine-russia border in over a month tuesday, accusing the u.s. and its nato allies of ratcheting up tensions and ignoring russianecurity demands, including halting nato's expansion to ukraine and other former soviet countries. >> i believe that the u.s., for example, does not care much about ukraine safety. their main task is to contain russia's development. that is the problem in this

context, ukraine is just a tool to reach this goal. amy: putin also accused the u.s. of withdrawing from the ti-ballistic missile treaty and deploying military equipment to eastern european nations. he said, however, he is open to more talks to ease the ongoing tensions. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken and russian foreign minister sergey lavrov spoke by phone again tuesday. meanwhile, british prime minister boris johnson traveled to kiev, where he held a news conference with ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. johnson vowed to increase military aid and help defend ukraine against any potential russian aggression. boris johnson's visit to ukraine came as he faced increasing pressure back home. on monday, a highly anticipated report was published which found downing street parties for government officials during the u.k.'s pandemic lockdown represented a serious failure as millions of britons cancelled plans and stayed home to help limit the spread of covid-19.

tonga went into lockdown today after recording its first locally transmitted covid cases since the start of the pandemic. the first cases were identified among port workers who were helping unload international aid shipments in the aftermath of last month's devastating volcanic eruption and tsunami. other small pacific nations have also recently reported their first outbreaks, including samoa, solomon islands, kiribati, and palau. south africa has announced it will no longer require asymptomatic covid cases to self-isolate and reduced the isolation period for symptomatic covid cases to one week. officials also loosened restrictions on in-person schooling. south african lawmakers say the recent changes were made as the nation exits its fourth wave of the pandemic, spurred by the omicron variant, and thanks to the high level of immunity in the population. a number of european countries are also relaxing covid curbs, with denmark becoming the first eu country to lift all restrictions, despite a rise in

cases. the world health organization, meanwhile, is warning countries against a hasty end to public health measures aimed at curbing transmission. >> we are concerd that a narrative has taken hd in some countries that because of vaccines and because of omicron's high traceability and the severity, preventing ansmission is no longer possible and no longer necessary. nothing could be further from the truth. more transmission means more -- amy: the who warned tuesday that massive amounts of medical waste linked to the pandemic pose a threat to human health and the environment. the u.n. agey called for more biodegradable and sustainable materials and packaging for essential medical and personal protective equipment. the president of guinea-bissau said he survived a thwarted coup -- survived and attempted coup but that many members of

security forces died as gunmen tried to kill him and cabinet members at the government palace. local media reported at least six deaths linked to the attack. president umaro cissoko embaló, a former army general, said the attack was linked to drug trafficking though details remain unclear for now. embaló took office in february 2020 after a contested election. guinea-bissau has endured a series of military coups and attempted military takeovers since gaining independence from portugal in 1974. tuesday's attack was the latest in a string of coups or attempted coups in west africa. the u.n. secretary general decried mounting instability in the region tuesday. >> we are seeing terrible most location -- multiplication of cause and are stronger because for soldiers to go back to the barracks and the constitutional order to be fully in place under the democratic context of today's guinea-bissau. amy: on monday, the african union suspended burkina faso following last week's military

coup which deposed president kaboré. in syria, two babies died in the freezing cold at a camp for displaced people in idlib province. aid groups report at least one other baby and child died in the past few weeks as a result of the harsh winter weather as some 2.8 milln people are living in temporary shelters amid the decade-long war. the u.n. says the tragic humanitarian situation in syria is being further exacerbated by a worsening economy that has seen food prices double in a year and a shortage in aid funding. attorneys from a dozen states and the district of columbia have joined with over 25 district attorneys across the country, as well as gun violence prevention groups, in support of the mexican government's historic lawsuit against u.s. gun manufacturers. it was first filed last august to hold 10 u.s.-based firearm companies accountable for mexico's epidemic of gun violence. this is the first time u.s. gun makers have been sued by a foreign government. in response to the growing

support, mexico's ministry of foreign affairs principal legal advisor said in statement, "we are confirming the missing link in this whole equation of illicit trafficking as the gun companies, and i think that is recognized on both sides of the border." hundreds of native american tribes have reached a tentative $590 million settlement with johnson & johnson and the three largest u.s. drug distributors over their role in fueling an opioid epidemic that devastated indigenous communities. most of that money would be used for substance use treatment and prevention efforts, overseen by tribal health experts. johnson & johnson did not admit wrongdoing as part of the settlement. native americans have endured the highest per capita rate of opioid overdose. abc news has suspended comedian -- suspended whoopi goldberg from "the view" after facing widespread backlash over remarks

she made on the show monday claiming the holocaust was "not about race." the discussion came during a discussion about a tennessee school district's decision to ban the book "maus" by acclaimed author art spiegelman, whose parents survived the holocaust. >> the holocaust is not about race. it is not about race. it is not about race. >> what is the about? >> man's inhumanity to man. amy: whoopi goldberg apologized on social media monday. she also addressed her comments during tuesday's airing of "the view" where she said -- "my words upset so many people, which was never my intention. i understand why now, and for that i am deeply, deeply grateful because the information i got helped me understand some different things." we will speak with the pulitzer prize winning graphic novelist art spiegelman later ended the

broadcast. -- later in the broadcast. brian flores, the former coach of the miami dolphins, has sued the nfl, the new york giants, the denver broncos, and the miami dolphins teams, accusing them of racial discrimination. flores' lawsuit stems from his interview processes with the denver and new york teams and his firing last month from the miami dolphins. among several allegations, flores, who is black, says dolphins owner stephen ross offered to pay him thousands of dollars to purposely lose games. ross also reportedly tried to pressure flores into hiring a prominent quarterback in 2019. but flores refused because this would violate the nfl's rules on tampering. in the years that followed, flores says he was treated "with disdain and held out as someone who was noncompliant and difficult to work with." flores was fired from the dolphins this january. he filed his lawsuit on the first day of black history month. he could hear the nfl to a plantation -- he compared the

nfl to a plantation. at least 14 historically black colleges and universities reported bomb threats tuesday, the first day of black history month, forcing them to lock down or cancel classes. at least half a dozen schools, including howard university, received threats monday and in previous weeks. no explosive devices were found on the affected campuses. you remix candy tweeted -- "i'm a product of hbcu where i learned how to think and write and be me. our hbcu family is resilient but we should not have to be, he said. two fatal school shootings took place tuesday. in virginia, two campus police officers were shot dead at bridgewater college, near harrisonburg. a 27-year-old suspect was taken into custody. in minnesota, a shooting outside the south education center in richfield, killed one student and left another in critical condition. two suspects have been arrested. in california, students at an

oakland middle school led a walkout tuesday, protesting the oakland unified school district's recommendation to close as many as eight schools in the next two years. parents, teachers, and school staff also joined the action. and at least two teachers have gone on hunger strike in response. the oakland school district also cited low enrollment and budget deficits. in the nation's capital, the d.c. city council voted unanimously to redirect tax revenue from the area's wealthiest residents to daycare workers. thousands of caregivers are expected to receive checks for at least $10,000. council members hope to establish a program to subsidize daycare workers' paychecks in future years in order to compensate for their chronic underpayment. and in new york, immigrant rights groups and progressive lawmakers are pushing forward a bill that would expand state-funded health care coverage for low-income new yorkers regardless of

immigration status. the bill, known as coverage-4-all, has advanced through two key health committees over the past week. the new york immigration coalition and other advocates are calling on governor hochul and the new york legislature to include the bill in the state budget. >> amber great workers have been on the frontline fighting covid without essential workers harvesting cropsdelivering food, cari for our seniors, we could not have gone througit. instead of rewardg their sacrifices, thousands of immigrants died due to lack of health coverage. we need coverage for all. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. when we come back, we spend the hour with two award-winning authors targeted in the latest wave of book banning. first we will speak to george m. johnson, author of "all boys

aren't blue." it has been targeted for removal by at least 14 states. then we will speak with pulitzer prize winning cartoonist art spiegelman. back in a minute. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "the greatest" by cat power. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by my co-host juan gonzález in new brunswick, new jersey. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: well, school districts and republican-controlled state legislatures have rapidly

intensified efforts to ban certain books about race, coloalism, and gender identity from public classrooms and libraries while placing sharp limits on what can be taught in schools. according to pen america, more than 70 bills to impose educational gag orders been introduced or pre-filed just in the past month. meanwhile, the american library association says it has received an unprecedented 330 reports of efforts to ban books. many of the efforts are being led by a number of right-wing groups, including moms for liberty, parents defending education, and no left turn in education. all three groups have ties to a right-wing network funded by charles koch and others. in new hampshire, lawmakers are considering a bill to make it illegal for public school teachers to depict the founders of the united states in a negative light or to teach that the united states was founded on

racism. in oklahoma, the state senate is considering a bill targeting books about sexual and gender identity from public school libraries. in tennessee, the school board in mcginn county recently voted to ban "maus," the pulitzer prize-winning graphic novel about the holocaust by art spiegelman, who will join us later in the show. but we begin with the author of an award-winning book that has been targeted for removal in at least 14 states. it's titled "all boys aren't blue" by george a. johnson, who writes about growing up black and queer in new jersey. the book deals with homophobia, transphobia, and racism. in november, a school board member in flagler county asked the county's sheriff's office to criminally prosecute whoever allowed the book in school libraries. the complaint led to the book being removed from the school system.

george johnson will join us in a moment. at first, we're going to turn to a video appearance they made at the school board meeting in flagler county. >> hello, everyone. my name is george m. johnson and i am the author of the book "all boys aren't blue." i've come to you today to speak out on behalf of my book as well as to just talk about some of the issues and concerns of people are having with it. i first want to talk about a story really quickly, the first time i learned the word "lesbian." i was eight years old sitting on the couch with my on watching an episode of "murphy brown." i looked to my mother and i asked her, mom, what is a lesbian? she looked at me and said, well, some in love women and men love women but they're also women who love women. i looked at my mom and i simply said, ok. and we went back to watching

"murphy brown." in that moment, i was a student in my mother was my book "all boys aren't blue." there's no reason to pretend the world is not going to expose our youth in our teens to these very heavy subjects and heavy topics that are included in my book. the problem is we think i book is introducing them to that when realistically they are already experiencing these things and my book was teaching them how to get through these things. my book is geared toward readers age 14 to 18 as it states on amazon and every other major website, as well as grades 10-12. the book has two sections where i describe sex, which is the time i was sexually abused as a 12-year-old and my first time losing my virginity. the part that is been left out is i lost my virginity at 20, so an adult, and both of those chapters are teaching about consent, agency, giving students

the language to understand their bodies, to understand the power they have come into truly understand because they don't have sex education, they're having to go to other sources which can make -- put them at risk and make them more vulnerable and susceptible to not only sti like hiv and other sexually transmitted infections, but also potential harm. i find it interesting because i remember learning about prostitution at the age of six. the book i learned it from was in a sunday school and it was the bible. so unless we are ready to ban every context that talks about sex and sexuality, my book belongs in these teenagers hands . i finally want to end by saying it is not my book that is going to harm any teenager. it is them not having my book as a resource while they experience real life real-world things. amy: that is george m. johnson

testifying virtually before the school board in flagler county, florida, after a board member asked the county sheriff's office to criminally prosecute whoever allowed johnson's book "all boys aren't blue" which has been banned in schools and libraries in at least 14 states. george m. johnson is also the author of "we are not broken." welcome democracy now! can you start off by responding to this state of banning's, whether it has shocked you, the powerful testimony gave virtually before the school board -- have any schools reinstated were book? and talk about what you're trying to convey in your book. >> yeah, so, one, thank you for having me on your show today. i wish i could say that the book vans were shocking but if you look at the history of the

united states, book vans are nothing new. they're just not as talked about as we talk about them in other places and other countries around the world. black storytelling has often been banned whether you're talking about poetry in the 1700s or any of the slave narratives in the 1800s. it has historical precedent and legacy in this country. i can't even be shocked. i think i'm more shocked at the fact they think banning books is a realistic thing or a necessary thing during this time. what my book discusses is my life. it simply tells my life story from birth until the age of 21. that ithe trials and relations of what it felt like to grow up and not be sure of who i was identity-wise. with the other beautiful thing about my book as i talk about my family. i talk about my amazg

grandmother who is no longer hear my affection call nanny and growing up having wonderful cousins and my mom and dad and my life and all the things they imparted on me. i do also talk about sex and sexuality and consent and agency as a teaching tool for the youth who are clearly growing up in a world where heavy topics are been presented to them not just in books, but in real life, on television. i find it interesting because it anyone wanted to learn about sex, sexuality, and gender come a book is probably the last place they would need to look. they could sadly turn on the television. -- they could simply turn on the television. at the end of the day, my book as a tool so black queer kids and lgbtq teens can see about themselves and learn about

themselves within the books pages, something they starkly could not do. -- historically could not do. juan: governor kim reynolds has compared books like yours to movies saying it is explicit scenes and films that children are barred from watching them than explicit scenes and books should also be kept from children. what is your response? >> people are using the word "children" -- let's be clear, my book is for 14 to 18-year-olds. some of the movies she speaks about our geared, rated to 17 euros or were 16 euros and 15 euros can go see the movies. the term children is being used in a lot of places because media makes its inlet my book is available to an eight-year-old or 210-year-old would in reality this book is available to the

same demographic that she is describing. juan: what has been -- what is a bit like to have your memoir, which is so deeply honest and vulnerable, be at the center of such a campaign to organize conservative groups around the country? >> i will be honest. it is a little overwhelming to watch your story be twisted, right? it is interesting because they don't want you to twist the story of their founders, who we all know were slaveowners, founders of the country, you know, dissipating in sexual abuse and -- dissipating in central abuse and rape and other heavy topics. don't twist the story of our founder while also twisting the stories of our books saying our books are saying something there really aren't. it is an interesting space to

watch what is happening. amy: can you talk about the effects, george johnson, of your book being banned and kids not having access to it? particularly black and queer kids, but not only? >> yeah, i mean, the effect of that is in you have teens who will go to the same things that i went through. i talked about what it felt like to go through sexual assault and sexual abuse. i talk about what it feels like when you don't have any representation of yourself in the world and how isolated you feel. we don't lgbtq you experienced suicidal ideation at a much higher rate, died by suicide at a much higher rate than their heterosexual counterparts. looks like these prevent those things from happening -- books

like these prevent those things from happening. it is extremely important a have resources like mine and many of the other books they're trying to bend because it honestly can save their lives. can you tell us why you titled your book "all boys aren't blue"? >> yeah. it is interesting when we think about color and we think about, oh, boys are blue and girls are pink, what are we really saying when we put that designation that a point is blue? it seemed you got a pathway where you have to be more masculine, yet you prent as heterosexual, goto play sports, you know, you're not allowed to have dolls. you're not allowed to have an easy bake oven as a boy, have to have a football or basketball. you have to be tough. big boys don't cry. it really pushes you down a pathway when we put that label of boy on a child or girl on a

child to go either this direction of accepted cash sucked ability or this direction of acceptability. my title is saying all of us boys are not blue. some are pink and some are yellow and some are green and we deserve space to explore who we truly are outside of the context of the heteronormative society that many are placed. juan: is a writer, what are some of the books that have shaped your own thinking and your own work? >> yeah, i mean, as a writer, you know, "notes of a native son" by james baldwin, toni morrison's "the bluest eye." i believe it is called "tongues untamed" from the 1990's as well.

all of these books have helped sharpen my lens, have allowed me to be seen, have helped sharpen my tools. what i think about toni morrison, she's the reason that i write. i have her tattooed on my arm, her quote, "if there's a book you want to read that hasn't been written yet, you must write it." those authors -- and watching how their work in a the world shifted culture and gave us space, made us feel at home, made us feel seen and accepted and told our true story, it literally just empowered me to continue to do that for so many others who have never had their stories told. amy: george, book is so powerful. you discuss having your teeth kicked out when you're five years old. what would it have meant if you

read a book like you wrote "all boys aren't blue" when you were a kid? >> man, it would have meant the world to just read anything that said, you know, being different did not mean you weren't normal, that the feelings i was feeling were being felt summit just before me as well. it would have allowed me to know that i wasn't the only one could ever went through the experiences that i was going through as a teenager. but it also would have given me a voice, i bieve. i think it would have given me the language tools to be able to go to my parents and have the conversation about how i was feeling. because i think that is also one of the bigger parts. when you don't have the language and you don't know someone else's going to the same thing you're going through, you don't

know how to even talk about it with anyone. if i would have had a book like mine, i feel like i would've had a roadmap, something i could hold onto where i could use it to the empowered to speak my truth to my family, to my friends in a way i wasn't allowed to do when i was a teenager. juan: i am wondering, this movement that has been gaining strength in the past year or two, this banned books movement across the country, it all must seems to be given the enormous accessibility of the written word today, not just in books, but obviously, most young people get their information right through phones, through their smartphones. your sense of what is an astroturf movement, pretending to be grassroots but actually being organized by

multibillionaire conservative folks like the koch brothers? could you talk your response to this movement and working now one of the key figures at the center of the storm? >> yeah, the movement is interesting for all of the reasons that you named. it is also interesting because you have a bunch of people who oftentimes very clear they must not have read the first story of genesis and the forbidden fruit. when you make something for abaddon, it makes it more tempting. putting our books at the center of attention and make them for abaddon, it is only making more people interested in this story, which is only creating more access. they're having this bike to shut down one access point even though the fight is making our books so no that it is only creating 10 more places for the

students to get the book. i think realistically, this is not really a fight about what bans, i think it is a notion to try to hold on to white tierney and innocence of their children, and i think when you look at what is going on with the voting rights act, roe v. wade, you look at what is going on with book handing, they all have similar ties to the fact that demographics the population is shifted. the population is becoming less and less white. realistically, what they're trying to do is put a stop on anyplace where you can fully see that demographic shift happening, which just happens to be publishing. there are more black and brown students, so there are more black and brown books. anywhere we see that demographic of books change or boating change or demographics of bread changing between black and brown and white women, you are seeing

with their putting these attacks. i think that is what this is. i don't think it has as much to do with books as it has to do with ensuring they can envision their next generation about who the founders were and how great this country is the same with a condition mine and my grandparents. amy: i want to ask abo these bis that are going through state legislatures. not only the book banning, so books like yours, george, of the florida bill that was approved by a state house cmittee that would prohibit students and teachers from speaking about sexual orientation and gender identity. it is called the "don't say gay" bill and then you have new hampshire -- i mean, we were speaking at the beginning up like history month. new hampshire lawmakers considering a bill, how did new hampshire public radio put it, the proposed bill hb 1255 is titled an act relative to teachers loyalty.

it seeks to ban public school teachers from promoting any theory that depicts less history or its founding in a negative light, including the idea that the country was founded on racism. if you could wrap up your comments by talking about these kind of bills. >> yeah, you know, the fear of losing control will make you do some very interesting and strange things. these bills are all about the fear o losing the control of the mind that they have had in this country since its early founding. i write about this in my book, i was summit who literally was conditioned as a black child think abraham lincoln was my savior because he ended slavery. i think about that how as a child -- because of how we are taught, we are conditioned to

look up to whiteness as a supreme thing, as this savior. and so when we now are 20, 25 plus years from when i was being taught and we have books and we have teachers and librarians who are saying, well, actually, that is not true to this country and this is actually what happened. the conditioning of the mind is changing. really, this is a fear-based attempt to stop how they have conditioned the minds of youth because realistically, jen z is the most diverse population. the fear of those currently in power is that if gen z has the actual truth in their hand when those particular white kids from gen z and black and brown kids from gen z to come the next leaders and future leaders, they will operate with a lens within think about equity and all the relies their people to exist around them we don't have as

much as they have in a way that i was conditioned as a child think i was -- that whiteness was my savior in many ways instead of realizing it was my pressure -- oppressor. amy: george m. johnson, thank you for joining us and for your courageous work. author of the memoir-manifesto "all boys aren't blue," which has been banned in schools and libraries in at least 15 states. george m. johnson is also the author of "we are not broken." his role model, the person he says most inspired him, toni morrison, her books are being banned all of her as well. next up, we will speak with a pulitzer prize-winning cartoonist art spiegelman. a tennessee school board recently voted to ban his graphic novel "maus" about his parents surviving the holocaust. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: mohammed fairouz's symphony no. 4 "in the shadow of no towers." a book by art spiegelman. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. as we continue our our looking at banned books, rejoined by the pioneering graphic novelist art spiegelman. in january, the mcminn county board of education in athens, tennessee, voted 10-02 ban art spiegelman's pulitzer prize-winning graphic novel "maus" from the eighth-grade leg arts curriculum. "maus" tells the story of art's parents who survived the holocaust. in the graphic novel, he depicts jewish characters as mice and nazis as cats. "maus" is the german word for "mouse."

the school board claimed it banned the novel because of profanity and nudity. attention around the van has resulted in "maus" shooting to the top of the bestseller list, along with other works by spiegelman, who is one of the most celebrated graphic novelist in the world. the ban comes -- art spiegelman joins us from his home in new york. welcome back to democracy now! it is great to have you with us. unfortunately, under the circumstances, though congratulations on what often happens is when you have a book censored ike this, your book "maus" shoes to the top of the best seller list. you cannot get it in bookstores right now. it will take weeks or months to get. can you talk about first your

response to this banning and then what "maus" is all about for people who don't know? >> well, my first reaction -- and i'm still trying to get over it -- is baffled because of the grounds on which it was banned. i first response had been well, gee, what are these holocaust line crazies in teessee al about? as i beat it in on it more, realist, no, no, they're not necessarily stupid nazis, they're just stupid about what might work for their children an educational context to understand what happened to my family. what was the second part of your question? amy: tell us about "maus," tell us wt happened to your parents. >> my parnts are both survors

of death campspolish js who hatched me when i was in sweden while they were there is a displaced couple in sweden. that eventually came to america when i was about three years old. my father and mother did not talk that much about this i know way at i cou understand. my fathejust did not want to talk about it at all. saying people do not want to hear such stories. my mother would let me know things but in spurts that re absotely trifying and not with any context. when i got older after my mother had committed suicide in 1968 when i was 20, i just asd my father more about what happened and it led to me being glued to hearing his story. it is one of the first times he

and i could sit in a room together and not get into an argument. here i was rapt in finding out his story, as if he had been waiting for me to ask as an adult. that led over a. of 10 years to try to put this into a book. i never wanted -- juan: i' sorry, art spiegelman, i wanted to ask you, one of the tender zero voters at the victim county school board, one of those school board members said of your book, "it shows people hanging, shows that killing kids. why does the educational system promote this kind of stuff? it is not wise or healthy." your response to the concern not so much about what actually happened but someone actually telling what happened? >> well, let's see.

i believe it is very misguided on tir part to do this, and i think that sentence leaked out of the school board member's mouth because they seem to be incredibly focused on a few bad words like "damn," which i thought of as a g rat curse word. they're trying to focus on an image of what they called nude woman. i preferred they had called it a naked corpse of his mother in a bathtub. i suppose it could've placated them if i r re drew it with her wearing a bathrobe while on it about because there's the suggestion that she is naked and naked seems like more appropriate word for this then nude, which has sexual

connotations. they try to focus -- there pictures of hanged mice and children being killed. well, yeah, a story of what actually happened. but i would say in some ways i think it is just a displacement of their own anxieties. i believe fewer books about the genocide of jews have been banned up to this point than once that mr. jnson was talking about about gender and about race, but it is all under attack. i would like to say unlike mr. johnson's book, this book was never intended for children, so it added to my confusion. i thought i was making come after 13 years, anything that did not quite have the name graphic novels yet, i thought i was just making a long, book for grown-ups that could be reread

and worked with because comics offer so much rich possibility for dealing with memory. when you read a comic, read from left to right. your eye is always going back to the panel before and inching toward the future, which of the panels after the one you're staring at. it allows one to understand how close we are to the past, as i think william faulkner said. i thought children should be protected and never intended it to be young adults or children or whatever, but over the years i've had to change my opinion. when i first got an award from the new york public library for best young adult book, i was annoyed because i thought, 13 years to make a book for adults and here it is getting a young adult award. i had to modify my position over the years because i have met

many, many children who studied it in school, founded on their own, were given it by their parents. it actually is received with the degree of real wisdom in their reading based on the people i talked to. so i give up. comics are for whoever can understand them. certain, scope or doesn't. -- certainly, the school board doesn't. the part of the book basing to be especially concerned by, which has to do with not the past but my relationship with my parents, my link to the past. my unorthodox way of dealing with them -- not just as a jew, but in gener and part of the underground comics world of e 1960's and 1970's, taboo breaking seemed natural to me. i did not realize one taboo among all the others was being angry at one's parents. at that time there were just

inventing that phrase second-generation and the application that most people in my situaon and he did was, "don't upset youparents. they've already been through enough." i own anger was enough to overcome that boo without thinking about it because i was just trying to find out who they were, how i got to be here when the odds were against them being born after the war, slad for genocidal murder. but i think it is that link, be talking with my parents, that made the book better as a didactic tool than i had intended as such because it allows someone a window into finding what happened in the past among other people who did not experience it. evidently, this was very effective cause not everybody had a father who througut their coat -- i'm sorry, not everybody had a father who went through the holocaust but everybody had a pent, has a

parent that did sometng equivalent of throwing out a favori coat because that is the way of taking control. as a result, when kids would come up and say, "god, your conversaons with your grandfathewere so important for me to read," and i felt that was a real compliment. because at this point, i athe one old enough to be their grandfather and they just identified with me as the maus character in the book. amy: i wanted to go to your father in his own words. "maus" based largely on the interviews with ur dad. this is an excerpt you did with him in 1972 about his life during the holocaust. the audio was included in the meta-mouse dvd extra. >> two small windows.

we were together in the truck, men and women. we were assured we were going to be finished. >> you knew our choice was a death camp -- auschwitz was a death camp. did you know about the showers? >> sure. it was very late in season. we knew what was going on. amy: and this is your father explaining to you what he saw at auschwitz when he was forced to disassemble the gas chambers. >> hadn't heard about the showers before? >> when i came over there, how it worked, i had heard much about it but now i have seen everything. i'm telling only what i have seen, what i went through.

not just what people were talking. from there it was a little corridor. you went into a shower. it was a big, big shower room full of showers and maybe 100 commended you 150, maybe 90 showers. it looked like the showers coming at the water. the door was a very heavy door and it was covered with some insulation. but when the people went in, they close the door and the door had a little window in the middle to look in to the shower room. so people went in with the soap and a towel and they waited for water that will come out from the showers. but instead of water, came gas. poison gas. in poisoned them from half an hour to three quarters and the german look through the window

until everybody is dead. amy: that is your dad talking to you back in 1972. i wanted to go to your family tree, which you illustrated in a genealogical project first published in 2011 in metamaus. we're showing the images you drew of a branch of the spiegelman family tree in 1939, at the start of world war ii, and then the second image shows the same family tree at the end of world war ii with almost all of the names now missing. you dedicate "maus" your older brother, whom you never met, who did not make it out of the holocaust. art, if you can talk about all of this and what is being erased when your book is banned, what we lose access to. >> we lose access to understanding a genocidal system

built by fascist and authoritarians. although i never made the book to teach anybody anything but to understand how i got to be here, it is clearly an important book so i'm grateful for his second life as a didactic tool because it probably is the best way to teach young people about what happened in a way they seem to be able to grasp fully, partially because of the carefully built comics format. i'm grateful you played my father's voice because there's no audio component except for metamaus, but i try to capture his was in the way he spoke english, which was about his third language or so. and how eloquent he could be in his own put together version of english. and that is part of the book's power. the closest i could come is

after having shown drawings of cats and mice, get myself to be able to do the book, to be able to insert a picture of my father had taken of himself in an auschwz uniform as a souvenir, was as close as i could me to giving you the dissonance between the presentions as i am envisiong them and the person who is transmitting the story. because he looks rather well fed at that point in a very crisp form, but he put on her souvenir photos, that is the right word, were being taken. it indicates how photography come closer to true and drawing, isn't necessarily the way that gets when the coolest, clearest access to the realities at a timehen authoritariasm and fascism, all of our country right now.

this allows us some kind of access that i believe feels trustworthy. juan: art spiegelman, i wanted to ask you, the use of graphic literature -- graphic books to explore some of these very profnd issues. you mentioned earlier on that it was in the 1960's you got exposed to the underground cartoon world, "mad magazine" i think was one of your -- the impact on how you tell a story? >> wow. their artist superfamily -- who profoundly affect and become a great comics artist and writer and also the editor of a series of comics about were called "front-line combat." it'll real weretories,

thoroughly researched. " d," which was one of the most effective critiques of the adult world that could be fered to whoever wanted, children included. it was thank the whole adult world is lying to you and of course children, we, too, are adult so you have to think for yourself. i thght thatas very potent message, carefully conructed with beautiful comics grammar in rms of how panels wer organized on pages. it maybe wanted to be a comic book artist before i could read. amy: i am wondering your thoughts on abc news suspending the comedian and actor whoopi goldberg from "the view." she is decrying "maus" being banned in tennessee but did say it was not about race, the holocaust. it was about man's inhumanity to man. she afterwards apologized and

said she now understood, you know, hitler's talking about jews as an inferior race. your thoughts that that is the fallout from the banning? >> well, ihink she suld have been left on tv, especially after she apologized. in any case, because i think in this age, we are all adults, including whoopi goldberg. i think she had conflicting images of where we are at right now in the sense that somehow jews have become honorary white in this moment and that allowed her to get a bit confused about where the issues really are. i've got to say, i am a fundamentalist. therefore, not as upset about -- i don't know, i hate using orbit now let's say cancel culture, as a way of redressing the great

wrongs that mr. johnson was talking about your previous segment, but it iall kind of bald confusion like the attempts to ban "huckleberry finn" over the decades by mark twain where actually jim is probably the most wisest and most fully realized character in the book. and i think mark twain must have been aware of it. he wrote it. and i think it is misguided, the leg which includes a trier rd in thstory, but that's the word that was current back then. therefore, although i love it when i find books on my own was a little worried when i first heard "maus" wabeing put into this curriculum just because i don't know who is ready to read this. but in situation like the one the teachers were testifying to

board appearance put it, this book has been shown to be very effective in teaching -- dylan amy: art spiegelman, we have to leave it there but we thank you so much for being with us. [captioning made possible by democracy

♪ hello there and welcome to nhk "newsline." i'm catherine kobayashi in new york. russian officials have belittled the british prime minister's efforts at diplomacy, but after some criticism and delays, president vladimir putin has oken with boris johnson about the crisis in ukraine. johnson warned during their call that an invasion would be a tragic miscalculation. johnson says he's deeply concerned about the 100,000 russian ie