- what's your problem? what's your solution? which wld do weanna liv beyond t covid-1 vis crisis that is the question of this special series kamp sotions. ofessor chard wiinson has ne extenve reseah the impt of inequali on sociy. we wannknow how wean make ciety wo better for all, richa wiinson halots to ll us. weome to kamp solutis. you' been rearching impact of inuality isociety anon indivual well-bng for my years.

and wi your wi, pressor ka pickett, u've wrien two bks abt yourindings. whatave you arned? - well, at we di walook at e scale of ince differces between ch and pr in rich veloped untries. and en we reted it to all sts of ouomes likeevels ofiolence asured bhomicideates and lifexpectanc and thproporti of populati in pris, teage birtrates, a sorts ofhings li that. we had worked alth inealities anwhat's cled the cial determants of alth. medil care inot the mo importa determinant of life pectancy muchore impoant are thgs like w rich opoor you are, your soci class, ur educaon how strsful youlife has en in ma respect ose are ally powful deteinants of heth.

- onof the ieresting nclusionin your ok, "the ier levelwhich al fers to ur earli work, "the spit level"s that me econom growth doesn't em to le toetter we-being, heth and hpiness. fact, tre is rearch thatuggests at in weste societi, we haven't de any rl progre nce the 70s probly. we may have d higher inco levels,dp per cita but kda lost at progrs versus ireasing vels of strs in socty, enronmentadegradion and ings likthat. so, hodo you expla thathe econoc growth that we' all see be string for acally doe't serves? - i thinit's versimple. i meanin a poosociet rising merial andards are real importa. buas we gemore and moref everytng,

it makesess and ss diffence. anthat's bically whatou see, so if u look a li expectay ainst gnper capi in diffent countes the wor, countri get ricr, the life exptancy goes uand up a up anthen wheyou get tords the ch countes, it startto levelff anit's thehorizont. and soountriesan t much, ch riche and yethe lifexpectanc n't affeed by th. life expectay tends rise but related what's haening tonp per cita. at lst that'been tru ov the lasgenerati or so nce the 70s but,f cose, mo recentl inhe unitestates, life expeancy haseased toise. anit lookss if se of that is do th inequity,

've had big ri what arsometimereferred to athe deat of despr. drugs, aohol, suide, ings likthat. d so, the's a lit to whamaterial standds can do for y and it's notimply heth. if youook at msures of ppiness d well-bng, life satfaction,hey ve that me shape so, f to get certain leveof wealtin a socty, geing rich still dsn't make much difference where diwe gwron i mean, ifou go by tse statiics, at lst, thatesearch, it sms to suest that overhe past years, we dn't real make mucprogress d so whas wrong withur polics? - economic gwth is wt transford the re quality of ourives hisrically om the 1h centur

tohe middlof last ntury t it won go on iroving evything fever. u can ha enough od, you n havenough ca, yocan havenough whever it iand so iis reall.. i saithat havg more and re of evything mas less a lesdifference. - we a, of coue, at an intesting mont in history, there er was a mome in our fetime r radicachange, that ment wille now beuse we'r basilly in aockdown and whher we le it or t, we're ced withhe opportity to rhink, mae reorgaze anrestructe. so, if wwere to trto do th, from yr perspeive, wha uld we ddiffertly? how woulwe changthe cour? - e power the resear we'veone which hanow been reicated my, many tis

is that it showshat life for the st majory of the polation c be bett with greer equaly, can livlong, e less mtal illns, less strs, less olence, ronger cmunity le, hier sociamobility i sotimes ma jokat the exnse of aricans, i showhe graph social bility in ration inequaly. an of cour, ericans ways thi th they ha the highessocial mility, e very mile sociy, thers the amican dre anyo can bece presidt anso on. but acally, ifmericansant live thamericanream, they'll much beer to go tcountrielike denrk

th has muchigher soci mobilit so, stead ofeing e landf opportity, a way, 's the ld of the greatest inequalities ofpportuty. when kidstart of there armore difrences inerms of ass and pants income a so on. your fher's inme matte mu more tohere yound up in socty in thus and manyther societi. and i thk that sprised a t of resrchers but 's been plicated on difrent datsets anit's nowell estaished. - that an intesting pot because the more traditiol europe societi where certain mily structur have be in plac focenturierather thanecades ain united stes ofte yowould exct that these mily favs d thingsike thatould contue to pl a role. - thamerican sto waabout geing away from t class disions o eupe and btain ando on,

the laed aristocry and son. and foa while,ith course e importt, verymportantxceptionf racialthnic dierences, ited stas was a re fluid sociy than eurean ones but at ceaseto be tr. anit lookss if a verymportant pt of t explanaon of wh is the iome diffences between ch and pr ve growno wide. we allecome mo worriedbout how were seen d judged what y think ome, i thk when y respecte d you lo up to me whenou look wn on me anthose kis of anxiets, statuanxietie seem to much hier all ince groups inore uneql societs. we all become more twitchy about how we're seen and judged

if youike. - sofrom yr perspeive, om what u've leaed during allour resech, why woulyou say at equaly or i suld say re eality is imptant beten peopl - almostll the problem that a more coon at t bottom the soci ladder, higherates of olence, re esity, me teen bths, more people inrison. all thosproble getorse whenhere areigger differens betweeus. ople areess like to kw their ighbors in aore unual soety, i yolike lespublic srited, lessnterestein the comm good if you like. and u can denstrate all th with stistics at are clected byll sortsf internatnal orgazations. and so wt we arg,

whate real show is that t qualityf life is bettefor all us in thesmore equ societi. when say forll of us ofourse,nequalit has s biggeseffects the lea well-ofbut if and ongst thbetter o, people like u and i,e ght live little t longer if we hathe sameob, same iome, sameducatio t lived a more equal society. we'de less lely to become victi of violce, our ki might bome less volved idrugs anso, seously inlved in ugs. in tt way,e all doetter, - need grter equaty for l kinds cial contions as wee talkedbout. buyou alsorgue tha we nd greateequality to aieve theery suainable societwe need become get morin line,f you ke, withhe plane can you lk abouthat? the way most coonly try anshow our self woh

is throu consumesm and acally, yosee that as equality, as the iome diffences win in socties, people brow morei think toeep up wh each oer. , i n give aood account myself by if ve got gsses wit e right shion fres orhatever is. and that fds into insaable kinof consution, our consumptn is mpetitiobetween . and as think iaid eaier, status aiety goeup not on amongsthe poor t even angst the richith ineqlity. an of cour, the biobstacle to stainility isonsumerism.

d we havto reali at the eiest way ofontrolli it, making feel happier th our iomes is thrgh great equality. t there e surveys or opinns of buness lears aski them abt what pority th attach environmenl agreemts. theyhink there less imptant i e equal cieties, presumly all enviroental thgs, at's f so the vernment d other ople to rry abou i st get oand run busines buthen peoe are le likely to have ose rts of aitudes in a morequal soety. you're n just a rearcher iuggest beuse togeer with ur wife, u startea foundaon to suppo the verwork in sociy that y write aut. so, you research but you al want tohange, wouli be corct? - i s giving lectu in lonn on tse thing

and ppose i want people know thatcademic idence but sobody cam up to mefterward and said"is anyo caaigning this?" and i'd never thght of campaigning. w, we seup what now call the equality trt inially wi moneyrom a lae quakeroundatio i supposif you'ra researer who h the... you likthe rarerivilege of comg acrosseally importanconnectis that an't veryell know you el it's ur job t make thebetter kwn, it confe a kinof sponsibilityn you. i y say th we didn diover the relionships the firspeople tshow stattical retionship beeen grear inequaty and woe health and more violenc they blished pers in e 1970s. first o cam out t 1980s

but nothere arsimply hundredsf papers and people have always known since fore the ench revutio that iquality divisiv d social corrosi and that simply wh the datshows. a few nths agothe wod went io a lockdo because of a crisis that very few people saw coming. whatid you tnk in tes of your rk on eqlity and the ed f equalit wh is the opportuny? - peop become re sociae streetsnd villas d townall overriin, wee leard thnames ofuite a few peopl whlive locly and w didn't know them before. en we gout to ha a lk to exercise, peop stop an talk to ch other in aay they dn't befe. d what'sappening is wre all beiut the samboat togher whh is actlly what grear equali does.

d so theffects a very lely effes of greerquality anyou can e it in termsf what pple are loing for terwards the vastajority the populatn, someing likewo thds of e populaon angood opinion pls say at they ink we wl be a kinderociety aer this, they ao think 'll a more ual sociy. d peopleave been hoified byhe data on the hher deatrates amgst ethn mirities fm covid. i warather sprised tt... mo people re surpred because most all caus of deathave thasame patrn mo common ongst po minoties a so on.

bui think e reacti showpeople tnk we shodn't tolate it, shld do sothing abt it. - th is a ow lled kamsolution so, weanna tal out the lutions. know th more eqli is good r all ofs but w do we t there? one ing you mentned in yr books is theoncept o onomicemocracy can yotalk abo that? - yes,n term of howou reduc thincomeiffences between chnd poor, most pple thinthat is simply matter higher xes and mo generoubenefits i think that's part of it, i think 've got totop peop hidingheir mey away itax have and we'vgot to stopax avoidce. bua much me fundamenl approa is to reduce income differences before tax. e biggest reasonor rise in equality is runaw incomest the to

these ople are payi themsels many millio of dolls, hundre of timemore an the arage pern rking inheir comny. inhe pt, songer ade unions, powerf labor mement, soal democtic parts, if y like, t strengt e what iall the counrvailingoice, mo peoplwith an ea thathere'snother way the world n work. i thinthe way w throughoi syste of emploe ownersp compaes, legiation fo emplee reprentation on comny board united stes and itain doesn't ve any legislion ke tha t about lf the meer countes ofhe europn union he at kd of legislation in germa, it's vy strong appantly, abt half t people

on the runeratiocommittees decidingay in th rger comnies have to employe presentaves not nancial ite pachuted in. and i think at is thway of getng greaterqualit more dply embeed into e fabricf our soety. and in way, itan't easily bundone. it's eloyees w create the alth mosfundamenlly and yethey hav't been shang in it - i t your pnt t how wod that wk inhat gig onomy that iemergi so fastow where er drive are not atll reprented in the brds of the corpations they're sically rking for? so, how uld we dit there - weeally ve to de with theszero hou contrts. it not theight way treat han being treati people sily aresource

and i think th part that is economic demracy. i think th one of e efcts of t lockdow anthe recoition th there arsome occations that a essenti, people divering, peopleorking ishops, obviouslhealth svice peoe, thshelf-stkers in r supermkets ando on, ddenly sing thesvery badly trted, lowaid peop as essenal worke, 's changg things anthere's funny hat that's deloped ibritain. everthursdayight at eig o'clock evyone com out of eir hous and ty clap and ey'rclapping the esial workers rticular the alth serce worke.

and e intern is awas th propols of wh we do after come out ofhis cris and que stroly reprented are prosals too somethg about llingly w pay an d treatmt in tho jobs. is a uversal bic incom pa of yourdeas of econom democra? - well, i'm t an ecomist but ineasinglyit seemso me we nd to go that diction. paly becau, of course, people lking at e develoent of aomation, netechnoloes and son ggests tt perhaphalf or me than hf our jo are vuerable tautomati

d crial to fure well-bng of ousocietie isow we ndle tha ist just gna creat enorus unempyment foa large rt ofhe labororce anhuge weah for thpeople o nominay own th aumated tenology? or aree going have some wayf sharinout wh is proded automically? d i do tnk universabasic inme a very portant pa of that. thsolutiono that pblem. in thend of yo last ok, u write at we ca on achievehe goal ofreater eality if large nuers of pple commito that. now, athe timehat you wrotthe book there s no cris. so, th meant tre was a logicarecommention butoday, sdenly thers that csis and lae groupsf peopleave comeogether. in fact,hey' all togher. , is thithat momenthat we nd?

- i dohink thacoming out of ts covid isis maybe a al turni point. there arbig swings, ternatiol eologicaswings, i meanthe 19s s a radil decade, the 1980saw a grth of st of free mark fundamealism, neoleral ecomics th reagaand thater d it's tre thawe stock e reallyig ineases innequalit and th was 40 years o now, these chges don'just ppen in e countr the '6 was radal everyere. 48 revolions hapned in dferent ctinents all th time ag soi do thi that'really importt, all tse chang,

the swingsn internatiol ideolo, economicdeology peaps principall and i uldn't b at all sprised. i hope vy much that thicrisis willave beenhe trger to sh a swin - riard, to nclude, a betterorld posble? - oh, have absoluly no dot. i thinsometimeit would beuite har toreate a worst e. wh i saw tt only 9% othe popution want to retu to everhing bei as it w beforehe crisis, i thout that tt's an indicati of the vast majity, 91of the pulation dn't nt to rern to th society it's an dication thate can doetter and i thinwe will better.

- thanyou ve much. - ank you. - more eality inociety isheaper a healthier. it also ads to a ppier ancleaner rld. thats the meage of decad of resech by pfessor rhard wilnson. yes, we e in a crisi and weave a biopportuny make mar progss roll. this w kamp sotions, sy ll and s you nextime. - [moderator] kamp solutions is presented by the world business academy on behalf of just capital. the covid-19 corporate response tracker of just capita isracking e best prtices oforporatis rving thneeds ofheir empyees and ofhe mmunitiethey ser this time of naonal cris. see how the best of america's largest employers are treang stakelders amidhe coronirus cris

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