03/11/22 03/11/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> the bare minimum is to stop humanitarian corridors or people are tried to get out and military aid and get in. and any attack on civilians is a violation of international law. it is a war crime. amy: as russia escalates its attack on ukraine, nato is

calling on russia to halt attacks on civilians. the united nations says more than 2.5 million people have now fled ukraine over the past 15 days. we will speak to a leading ukrainian environmental lawyer from the western city of ivano-frankivsk, which has been bombed today. she just cowrote a piece titled "the ukraine war is a decision point -- banks should stop funding the fossil fuel industry forever." then we go to the besieged southern ukrainian city of mykolaiv. >> it is not very good because every day there a artillery against our city. they bomb civilians, houses where people live. amy: we will also speak to retired colonel andrew bacevich, the president and co-founder of the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. he says the united states cannot absolve itself of responsibility

for the catastrophe in ukraine. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. russia's withering assault on ukraine has entered its 16th day. a column of russian tanks and armored vehicles has dispersed north of kyiv for possible ground assault on the capital. earlier today, russian airstrikes hit the city of dnipro in central-eastern ukraine, killing at least one person. the air strikes reportedly hit a kindergarten, an apartment building, and a shoe factory. long-range russian missiles also hit airfields in two western cities. some 400 thousand people remain trapped by russian forces in the besieged city of mariupol. people said they have endured attacks and freezing temperatures without heat, electricity, or communications.

food and water are in short supply. >> there is nothing here. it is the first time we have gotten bread and to do here. there is nothing before. there is no information, no electricity. it is just a vacuum. >> my children are in mariupol near kyiv. there is no mobile connection so we cannot get in touch. her two weeks, we do not know what is up with them or where they are, our children. it is very scary. amy: ukrainian president zelensky said his groups are working to help those trapped by fighting. he said russian forces targeted an evacuation route in southeastern ukraine. >> today they destroyed the building of the main department of the state emergency service in the donetsk region. next to the building was alace where riupol were together for evacuation. this is outright care, blatant care from experienced

terrorists. amy: the u.n.'s nuclear watchdog says the situation at the former chernobyl nuclear power plant is deteriorating. the international atomic energy agency says it lost contact with staff working under russian guard at the site of the 1986 nuclear disaster after power was cut on wednesday. ukrainian officials say operators have been forced to use backup diel generators to power cooling systems that are needed to prevent a radioactive release. the iaea says 210 technical staff and guards have not been allowed to rotate off-shift or rest since russian forces seized chernobyl two weeks ago. the international atomic energy agency also says it was no longer receiving remote data transmissions from safety monitoring systems at chernobyl as well as the russian-occupied zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. on thursday, iaea chief rafael grossi held talks in turkey with foreign ministers of ukraine and russia urging them to reach a deal on the safety and security of ukraine's nuclear sites. >> the gravity of my tone has to

do with the gravity of the situation. very dire situation. we need to move fast. amy: meanwhile, ukrainian say russian warplanes bombed the physics instite in the easrn city of kharkiv, which houses an expemental nuclear reactor. after the headlines, we will go to ukraine for the latest. the white house says president biden will ask congress to revoke most favored nation trade status for russia. russian leaders hit back, ordering an export ban on mo than 200 products until the end of the year. a top kremlin official said russia may respond by seizing the assets of foreign companies and tionalizintheir russian operations. economists believe russia could see a 15% decline in its gross domestic product this year as a result of sanctions. kremlin spokesperson dmitry peskov on thursday accused the united states and its allies of waging an economic war on russia.

meanwhile, the world bank's chief economist is warning the ukraine crisis will lead to soaring food and fuel prices that could trigger widespread hunger and social unrest, particularly in the middle east and north africa, which are highly dependent on imports of russian and ukrainian commodities like wheat and cooking oil. the biden administration reports inflation has risen to a level not seen since 1982. the labor department said thursday the consumer price index rose by 7.9% over the 12-month period that ended in february. at the white house, press secretary jen psaki said thursday u.s. residents should expect more inflationary pressure in the weeks ahd as bans on russian fossil fuels squeeze energy markets. >> in terms of prices going up, we do anticipate that gas prices and energy prices will go up. that is something the president has conveyed clearly to the american public. we believe it will be temporary and not long-lasting.

amy: the united arab emirates says it will press opec to pump more oil after russia's invasion of ukraine led to soaring fuel prices. the move is a departure from the uae's position in recent months in support of higher oil prices that benefited major producers including russia and saudi arabia. this comes as biden administration officials have been quietly holding talks with saudi officials and are reportedly weighing a potential biden visit to the kingdom to discuss global oil supply. u.s. military commanders have reportedly asked president biden to station hundreds of commandos in somalia to counter al-shabaab. the move would reverse former president trump's transfer of some 700 u.s. combat forces from bases in somalia to neighboring countries last january. the biden administration says north korea has tested a new intercontinental ballistic missile system capable of delivering a nuclear warhead anywhere on earth. nortkorean med reported the recent launches were related to plans by leader kim jong-un to launch spy satellites into oit to monitor the militaries of the

united states and its allies. a pentagon spokesperson rejected those claims, saying north korea is instead preparing a test of a new icbm at full range disguised as a space launch. israeli lislators passed a law thursday that denies citizenship rights to palestinians from the occupied west bank or gaza who are married to israelis. a similar measure had already been in place since 2003 but expired last year. critics call it a racist law that forces thousands of families to move or live apart. in other news from israel, authorities raided and arrested french-palestinian activist and lawyer salah hamouri. the arrest came one day after hamouri published an op-ed in jacobin describing the judicial harassment he and his family have faced for years. in november, researchers revealed hamouri's phone had been hacked with the powerful pegasus spyware made by the israeli firm nso group.

in india, the ruling hindu nationalist bj party has won elections in key states, four including northern uttar pradesh which represents about a fifth of india's population and has more members of parliament than any other state. the results are a boon for prime minister narendra modi ahead of national elections in 2024. uttar pradesh's chief minister is yogi adityanath, a hindu monk who has made anti-muslim statements. critics warn he has allowed for the police killing of dalits and muslims in the state, as well as a crackdown on journalists and activists. in a surprise reversal, guatemala's conservative president alejandro giammattei came out against a recently passed bill increasing penalties for abortions and banning same-sex marriage. >> i have decided if that law reaches my office, it will be vetoed. it violates two conventions to which guatemala is a signatory. his wording has deficiencies and

violates the political constitution. amy: guatemala congress had approved it on international women's day. he would have increased risen sentences for people who have abortions to 10 years. back in the united states, the census bureau reported the trumpet administration significantly under-counted latinx, black, and indigenous residents of the united states when it carried out the census in 2020. new data show an estimated 18.8 million people were left out of the most recent census, with communities of color under-counted at far higher rates than in previous censuses. this follows efforts by former president trump to shorten the 2020 census and to add a citizenship question that rights groups say was aimed at discouraging immigrants from participating. texas democratic congressmember joaquin castro tweeted in response -- "this was intentional. the undercount will strip latino communities of government funding and electoral power. congress must not allow this to happen again."

in a watershed event in the ongoing reckoning over the opioid crisis, victims of the epidemic have directly confronted the sackler family, owners of purdue pharma. in a hearing thursday, as part of purdue's bankruptcy settlement, 26 people from 19 states shared with the sacklers the pain and tragedy they and their families faced because of addiction to oxycontin. ryan hampton, opioids survivor, author, and activist said -- "i hope that every single victim's face haunts your every waking moment and your sleeping ones, too. i hope you hear our names in your dreams. i hope you hear the screams of the families who find their loved ones dead on the bathroom floor. you poisoned our lives and had the audacity to blame us for dying." in labor news, workers at three more buffalo-area starbucks voted to unionize. six u.s.-based starbucks now have a union. over 100 other locations across the country have filed for their

own union elections. and major league baseball has reached an agreement with the mlb players association on a new union contract. the deal ends a 99-day lockout of players by team owners that had threatened to shorten the 2022 season. opening day is now set for april 7. in a statement, vermont independent senator bernie sanders wrote -- "it would be wrong for congress to simply celebrate today's agreement and move on. we must prevent the greed of baseball's oligarchs from destroying the game. the best way to do that is to end major league baseball's antitrust exemption and i will be introducing legislation to do just that." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. russia is widening its attack on ukraine as the war enters its 16th day. earlier today, russian air strikes hit the city of dnipro in central-eastern ukraine, killing at least one person. the air strikes reportedly hit a

kindergarten, an apartment building, and a shoe factory. long-range russian missiles also hit airfields in two western cities, in lutsk and ivano-frankivsk. meanwhile, ukrainian officials are accusing russia of shelling a physics institute in the eastern city of carr kid -- kharkiv that houses an experimental nuclear reactor. satellite images show the russian convoy outside kyiv has now dispersed in a sign that russia may soon move on the capital city. this all comes as the united nations says more than 2.5 million ukrainians have fled the country. we begin today's show with a ukrainian environmental lawyer and climate activist who recently fled ivano-frankivsk, one of the western cities just bombed today. svitlana romanko is the founder of stand with ukraine campaign, calling on governments to ban trade and investment in russian oil and gas.

this week she co-authored an article for "the los angeles times" with bill mckibben headlined "the ukraine war is a decision point -- banks should stop funding the fossil fuel industry forever." svitlana romanko, welcome to democracy now! before we talk about this very important he's in our climate work, can you take us on the journey that you have taken? describe what happened. we did not know when we were first talking to you that your city would be bombed. talk about what happened. this is in western ukraine that has not been hit yet. and then where you are now or at least the overall region. >> yes, thank you so much for having me and inviting me and giving me a voice and space for ukrainian activists to share the happenings and share the latest war developments and the huge impact, catastrophic impact it

is making for all of our lives continually and severely, i would say. that is not true that we only have had explosions today in ivano-frankvisk where i am regularly based and have plans to come in a few days and continue my fight for justice and for peace for my country, my devout country. i actually woke up with my family two explosions on february 24. the first day of war. before that, different intelligence services that putin is going to attack, get prepared, stay strong and hold on. i can say as a human, as a lawyer as well because lawyers

are normally more prepared to take on difficult challenges because that is normally what their work is -- solve problems in legislation and so on. but we all have been unprepared to wake up two explosions. we all have seen -- i prepared to see our people dying. a lot of people, children die maternity hospitals. this is inhuman. this is insane. it must stop. even now when i'm am speaking to you now representing our community, and we are many, i will tell you a bit more later on how we are organizing and what we are doing and what is our -- what we target those institutions and how it could help ukraine.

ukraine is suffering every day. today it is the 16th day of war already and it has been a very long 16 days. express immense solidarity, which we are deeply grateful for. it has been a very long day for us. for all ukrainians. today, as you said, explosions in new cities th just begin explosions in ivano-frankvisk after 16 days. fortunately, no victims of an of people died in ivano-frankvisk but at least one person died in other cities. putin's war machine is to keep civilians here to destroy the infrastructure and buildings, to enable panic, and to enable

ukrainian government to accept what ukrainian government will never accept. the conditions, which put in request are to hold with. there are still almost 400,000 people that are staying in mariupol, where there was a huge humanitarian crisis. they are starving. the main corridor -- russian troops opened fire and killed many civilians. amy: yes -- we still don't know how many people have died there, but we have seen the images of the mass graves were scores have been buried because there is no time to bury them individually. hearing in mariupol about the lack of water, the lack of food, the freezing temperatures and

yet there is no electricity. even cell service cut off. >> yes. amy: i wanted to read from the piece you wrote with bill mckibben. i think clearly, overall, very much ties into what we are seeing today. you say, "above all, it is obvious the world banks have a morally work to build russia's oil and gas industry. the industry that funds the russian army. an industry that vladimir putin has used as a cudgel for decades to keep europe cowering, and that is why we cheered so loudly tuesday when president biden as part of his been on russian oil told american banks to make no new investments in putin's oil as ukrainian president blumer zelensky tweeted, strikes at the heart of putin's war machine." can you talk about this, how your professional life, or

activist life, as a lawyer, comes together now with what you have identified as the reasons for this war and what can be used to stop funding the russian military and the russian regime? >> thank you for that. i will talk through and explain a few initiatives that have been taken over the days as a lawyer come as an activisinvolved in a lot of global organizations and communities to help us. the first one is a part of organizing, called end global fossil fuels. we demand to european nationstates, the u.s., canada, china, india, japan, south korea, and all other importers

of russian oil and gas to stop the war machine. against coal. stop the war. actually, to divest all forms that have been invested in russian companies, russian assets. we also maintain -- mention that putin has deliberately weaponized fossil gas for his existing dominance over the european union. i can tell a little bit later about another action within the european union. under the leadership of president biden and how that continues over europe and through europe and european leaders. putin still threatens european nations that would come to ukraine's eight and this needs to be stopped. we call upon all governments to

reject that embargo any part of fossil fuels from russia. of course, realizing because i am -- i can understand climate change is the main contribution and main state of renewable energy development. yes, it is not easy but it is quite possible. bill mckibbe is -- it has to be done to provide affordable access to renewable energy for everyone. we should start now. this war such an immense tipping point and a chance we might not have heard in the future.

therefore, we also demand to stop all trade and all investment in a russian coal and all companies -- russian fossil fuel assets. exxon mobil and others have to stop fossil fuel production in russia. so far we collected 660 organization signatures from over 60 countries. yesterday we delivered with a campaign group the letters to all european leaders in the european union and urged them to follow the example of president biden and to put embargo on russian oil and gas and end any

investments in fossil fuels for the companies and banks. i would also like to mention. important, putin campaign which has been launched in solidarity with ukraine as well but over 75 organizations which we are writing to managers -- fossil fuel sector. these include j.p. morgan chase, citibank, let's of the unknown -- lloyd's of london, and others. companies which make up coal, oil, and gas industry. you can join the campaign, our

social action which is stand with ukraine enjoy the campaign putin's 100, which is has many global organizations in solidarity with ukraine. i do remember -- amy: i just wanted to say is you stop to -- talk about something reliance on fossil fuel, the part of the solution you have stressed is renewables. earlier this week, president biden band oil and gas imports from russia and called for a transition to green energy. this is what he said. pres. biden: this crisis is a stark reminder to protect our economy the long-term, we need to become energy independent. i've had numerous conversations the last three months about winning off russian oil. it is just not tenable. it should motivate us to accelerate the transition on clean energy. this is a perspective extended

to our european allies and the future where together we can achieve greater independence. amy: svitlana romanko, you write in "the l.a. times goes with "the influx of funding, we could produce air source heat pumps by the millions, ship them to europe so my next winter, they could be installed from heating homes and putting a noticeable dent in putin's oil and gas leverage." these are noble solutions that you stress? >> these are renewable energy solutions without a doubt. adding to that, i would like to say the key requisite for those solutions to be put in place, to be implemented the soonest and not allow the fossil fuel companies to justify the increased exploration of fossil fuels, this should also be transformed into renewable

energy transition as society, as an activist we should not allow the companies to increased exploration. the solutions you have mentioned are affordable. everyone basically can be a part of a network of the solution. th is why we call community-owned solutions. i with dr. mention we need -- we need to find the cost from somewhere. amy: we have to break soon. we will be going to mykolaiv, and you know that city is under siege, but i wanted to ask you about, one, how surprised when you said you plan to go back to your city that was just bombed today, that you plan to go back soon. and are you afraid about speaking out? you are ukrainian

climate lawyer, can clearly be identified. what are the risks? >> i have seen some signs of risk, that is why i try to mitigate them. i am personally not afraid. i am not afraid. i am concerned about risk for family, but i personally am not afraid. i plan to offer some security measures to go back to my country and to help. this is the country of my parents and where they a. this is the country where i was born. i feel i should go back and keep helping. everyone in our country is a volunteer right now and together we can overcome the biggest people which putin represents with his war machine. i have no fear. amy: svitlana romanko, thank you for being with us. we will check back with you and of coming days.

you any and climate activist, longtime environmental lawyer who lives in the western ukrainian city of ivano-frankvisk. she founded the stand with ukraine campaign, calling on governments to ban trade and investment in russian oil and gas, and co-wrote an op-ed with bill mckibben "the ukraine war is a decision point -- banks should stop funding the fossil fuel industry forever." coming up, we go to mykolaiv and then we will be speaking with andrew bacevich. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "concerto for two keyboards in c minor," featuring the alexander malokeev. despite voicing opposition to the russian invasion of ukraine, the young russian pianist was struck from the schedule of the

montreal symphony orchestra this week. in facebook post, he wrote -- "the most important thing now is to stop the blood. all i know is the spread of hatred will not help in anyway but only because or suffering." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we go now to the besieged city of mykolaiv in southern ukraine. the sounds of russian bombs exploding near the city of mykolaiv in southern ukraine. this is the city's mayor mykolaiv oleksandr syenkevych speaking on tuesday following intense russian rocket attacks. >> they attacked the city with

cluster rockets, you know, that they are forbidden. so 64 buildings were attacked. civil buildings, where people live. they damaged all tse buildings and let's say about 40 rockets were unexploded. i think they launched more than 100 rockets to the city. amy: many ukrainian refugees have been fleeing the mykolaiv region to escape the fighting. this is one woman from the area and her name is irina mihalenka, who was able to reach romania. >> we have a war but we are not from odessa. we came to odesa from mykolaiv region because there were very, very intense. sand was falling from the

ceiling. we were very scared so we evacuated to the other side of the city. also, when we were walking, the bridge was blown up. when we cross over the wreckage of the bridge because there was no other way out, there were corpses of russian soldiers lying there and they were turned inside out. amy: we are joined now by igor yudenkov. prior to the invasion, he was working as a project manager at an i.t. company which is now under russian control. thank you so much for being willing to come onto democracy now! so you have russian occupied now and your own city under siege, the video we played was from you. describe what is happening right now. >> hello, everyone, who can hear me. right now i am in mykolaiv on the border of our city there are russian troops. even right now when i am

listening to you and rightow and i am speaking with you, there is artillery. also there was an air raid signal but i stayed with you to explain and to explain to you what is happening today. amy: you are incredibly brave and i just want to say thank you for speaking to us, but if there is any siren you hear and you feel you should go, you should go. so tell us what is happening every day. >> every day, my day starts where i check on my friends, all my relatives, and all my colleagues that everybody is alive. the situation for me is hard with my family. right now they are all under

occupy territory in the mykolaiv region. the situation is bad but because the problems begin with good and water -- food and water. every day we have telephone talks and i try to support them but i don't know how to help them because they are full of russians -- amy: we just lost igor for a minute. we're hoping to get him back. go ahead. your wife and your daughter are separated from you at this point, is that right? >> yes. when it started, we felt it would be more safe for them to stay in the countryside.

for me, i was sure they would bomb and they will hit all our cities because it is their main aim to make here for all ukrainian nation. amy: you have been there helping other residents. describe what you are doing and even the footage you sent us that we just played of the russian attacks. >> how i am helping right now, i am trying -- my usual work. but also i try to help my own city in different ways. many of our citizens left our

city and domestic animals stayed alone. i also try to feed them when i have time and when i can find some food for them. also i help the local defense with making -- books sent, some treats, and so on. amy: we were just communicating with some people who are helping families leave mykolaiv. they leave and then come back. how hard is it to come and go from mykolaiv? what about your access to food, water, electricity? our people remaining in basements?

in mykolaiv -- mariupol, which is near you, people are trapped. they cannot leave. >> in mykolaiv, the situation is better because we have reached through the river which connects us with the road. it is like the bridge of life. we caneach food that came to our ci. about mykolaiv, the situation is more harder because most of the shops are occupied by russian troops. they just -- how dyou say? they take from shops what they want. there is no access for civilians

to the shops and also they fear because the russian troops are armed with weapons. amy: what message do you want people in the rest of the world to hear as you speak from the besieged city of mykolaiv? >> for all theemocracy now! viewers -- stop the invasion of russia, putin troops. they attacked democracy, democracy of our life. ukraine is a free country. we have democracy elections. we can vote. but they did not like it.

they want a fight against freedom. from my point of view, need to help us here to stop there invasion. right now we have needs. body armor, helmets. what is really -- there are some problemsith this. not all of our forces have such equipment. amy: igor, i want to thank you for being with us. we're going to check back with you in the coming days. igor yudenkov lives in mykolaiv, volunteering there where he has been helping other residents and

also those who left their pets, trying to get them some kind of sustenance. he has been separated from his wife and daughter, who are currently in russian-occupied territory in southern ukraine. before the russian invasion, he was an i.t. professional. next up, we're going to speak with a retired colonel andrew bacevich of the quincy institute responsible statecraft. he says the united states cannot solve itself to respond ability -- responsibility for the catastrophe in ukraine. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "the way will be opening" by stereolab. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we continue to look at the russian invasion of ukraine, the u.s. senate has passed a $1.5 trillion spending bill that includes $13.6 billion for military and economic aid for ukraine. that twice the original amount requested by the biden

administration. this comes as u.s. and nato are pouring weapons into ukraine to help counter the russia invasion. "the new york times" route to the u.s. and allies sent 17,000 antitank ovens to ukraine over recent six-day period. "the washington post" reports u.s. is currently planning to back the ukrainian insurgency and a government in exile of russia succeeds in taking ukraine. there joined now by andrew bacevich is the president and co-founder of the anti-war think tank, quincy institute for responsible statecraft. he is a retired colonel and vietnam war veteran. professor emeritus of international relations and history at boston university and author of several books. his most recent book is just out called "after the apocalypse: america's role in a world transformed." his most recent pieces include one headlined "the 'enof --

professor, let's begin there. talk about the u.s.-putin connection and why you feel the u.s. is partially responsible fowhat is king place. >> i tnk i would desibe it as u.s.-russia connection because it is not necessarily limited tmr. putin. the key issue here i think is when the cold war ended, when the cold war ended, of course, russia was in a position of grt weakness and owner ability. -- vulrability. the uned states and its allies chose to expose that weakness. e most viv expression of th was the eastward expansion of nato. let's remind herself, nato was an anti-soviet alliance when it was created in 1949. expansion of nato basically moved it up to the borders of post soviet russia.

at that time, there were many americans -- george kennan, the diplomat, would perhaps be the most prominent -- that warned against nato expansion is likely to cause us trouble down the road. we ignored those warnings. and i think we're kind of in a chickens coming home to roost situation right here. putin -- i am not a putin apologist and he is the principal cause of this catastrophe that we are experiencing -- but putin had been quite candid in warning that the easard moveme of nato, in particular the possibility of ukraine joining nato, conituted from his perspective of vital threat -- a threat to vital russian security interests. we have nord that. i think to some degree, this

terrible, unnecessary war is a result of that. amy: you are not the other one who says this. one person who warned years ago about nato expansion in eastern europe is william burns, the current director of the cia. he served as u.s. ambassador to russia from 2005-2008. in his memoir, he wrote "sitting at the embassy in moscow in mid-1990's, it seemed to me meant -- took speech was premature at best and needlessly provocative at worst." and in 1995 come he wrote a memo saying, "hostility to early nato expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here." in another memo he wrote, "ukrainian entry into nato is the brightest of all redlines for the russian elite, not just putin. in more than 2.5 years with key

russian players from knuckle draggers in the dark recesses of the kremlin to putin's sharpest liberal critics, have yet to find anyone who views ukraine and nato as anything other than a direct challenge to russian interests." again, those the words of the current director of the central intelligence agency william burns. andrew bacevich? >> so one would say given that kind of warning from a very senior official, highly respected senior official, why didn't we go ahead and do it anyway? i think are two answers. one is europeans so desperately wantedo join nato and to join the eu, seizing their chance to have democracy, to have liberalism, to have the possibility prosperity. my maternal grandparents came from lithuania.

let the when he was in the vanguard of countries that wanted to join the eu and nato. i don't blame the the when you people for that desperation. and in many respects, joining nato in the eu has paid dividends for leather when you. that said, it was done in the face of objection by the russians and now we're paying the consequences of those objections. the other reason we did it, of course, apart from what i think is really kind of a deep-seated phobia that pervades many members of the american elite, was the belief at that time, back in the 1990's, the belief that russia quit doing think about it all stepped russia was weak. russia was disorganized. therefore, is seemed to be a low risk proposition to exploit russian weakness, to advance our objectives, and also to advance

the objectiv of otheeuropean countries -- most of which had either been part of thsoviet union or had been sovi satellites and saw the end of the cold war as their chance to achieve freedom and prosperity. i don't blame the lithuanians or the polls, but i think the american decision-makers acted impetuously and indeed recklessly and now we're facing the consequences. amy: let's talk about this brutal invasion by putin of ukraine and also what putin is demanding. it hasn't gotten as much attention in the united states as other places, but the demands and written documents omitted to the u.s., ukraine sees much reaction come ukraine change its constitution to enshrine neutrality, knowledge crimea as russian territory, knowledge crimea -- and if you can talk about these demands and also the

brutality of what putin is doing righ now. >> let's start with the brutality. i must admit to me the most striking thing about the war as it has evolved has been the crudeness of t russian were machine. they had pretrade themselves as a modern army. -- they portrayed themselves as modern armies. they know how to do it in a controlled was full way. yeah, people get killed. buildings get destroyed, but it is not random violence. i think that summarizes the conception of modern war. we believe, and i think the russians themselves believe, that they had embraced the methods of modern war. it turns out they did not. so everything that happened thus

far over the first couple of weeks has demonstrated that they are incapable using violence in a controlled and politically purposeful way, which brings us to the present moment where it appears that what we moving into is some form of siege warfare, where violence is used in a random way to punish, to terrorize, i guess, among the russian commanders, with some vague hope that violence used in this way is going to lead to the rainians giving u collapsing's. it remains to be seen if that is going to happen, but it seems to be the current conception among the russians of how they think they're going to achieve their goals. whether or not they succeed, what we see, i think, is levels of violence far greater than anybody expected.

the probability of civilian deaths and destruction on an enormous scale, and not insignificantly, at least from a russian point of view, very high russian casualties. the press reports y the russians have already lost somewhere in the order of 3000 to 4000 ssian soldiers killed in action is actually, in my view, astonishing and is a powerful statement of how the russians miss read their own military capabilities and therefore, plunged into this more as -- morass why don't think anyone on the russian side had the clear picture of how they're going to get out of the mess they created. amy: so they are calling for ukraine. talk about what it means to remain neutral and recognition of crimea and independent states

of the donbass region. i also wanted to quote zelenskiy, "if we can see any movement in both of these parties when it will come to a cease-fire, he made this very important statement on abc. he said, "regarding nato, i have cooled down regarding the question a long time ago after we understood that nato is not prepared to accept ukraine." talk about what this means. >> it is too bad people could not say that out loud before the war started. amy: that was zelenskiy. that was zelenskiy himself, the president of ukraine. >> but had zelenskiy said that o set out loud that prior to the beginning of the war that we all

collectively recognize that ukraine is not going to be joining nato anytime soon, if we were willing to put that in writing, then i would argue it would at least have been possible, not certain, it might have impossible to dissuade putin from taking the course that he chose. again, he chose the course. he is the perpetrator. he is ththe criminal. but nonetheless, i think wis handling of the natossue might have given putin a way to avoid a taking the terrible steps he ended up taking. amy: zelenskiy also said -- i am talking about security guarantees, he said. he wenon to say, " think items regarding temporary occupied territories and unrecognized republics that have not been recognized by levitt russia, the pseudo republics, but we can discuss and find a compromise on how these

territories will live on." this was followed by ukraine's foreign minister saying, "if we could reach an agreement were similar system of teas as the north atlantic charter could be granted to ukraine by the permanent members of the u.n. security council, including russia, as well as by ukraine's neighbors, this is something we are ready to discuss." we are seeing the broad outline of a possible agreement or cease-fire here. >> it seems to me what you just quoted is courageous, lightened -- especially given ukraine is been the victim of this entire thing. i guess the question is on the russian se, are tre any signs of that willingness to compromise? and that is -- not that i know anything about discussions behind the scenes, but it seems russia is not willing to seek a compromise. i frankly, if putin listens to

any advisors whatsoever, those advisors should be urging him to find a way to cut a deal. because the longer this war goes, the greater harm this war will inflict on russia and the russian people. again, it is not my job to worry about russia, but it seems to me if putin cares at all about the well-being of his nation, then he needs to be working real hard to find a way to back away from the cliff he has wandered on to. finally, andrzej savage, if you could explain the argument you may and your --andrew bacevich, if you could explain your argument in your piece. you are retired colonel. you lost your son in iraq. explain your argument. >> not for instance would i want

to minimize the horrors that are unfolding in ukraine today. in the deaths and injuries inflicted on noncombatants. but let's face it. the numbers are minuscule compared to the number of people that died, were displaced, were injured as a consequence of e u.s. wars in iraq and afghanistan. the total number according to brown university cost of war project, the total number is somewhere in the vicinity of 900,000 deaths resulted from our invasion of afghanistan and our invasion of iraq. i understand americans don't want to talk about that, don't want to remember that. the political establishment wants to move on from that. but there is a moral dimension

to the present war, to the ukraine war, that should cause us to be a little bit humble, reticent about pointing her fingers at other people. amy: finally, we only have 30 seconds, but the response to russia's invasion of ukraine has been staggering. i mean, you've got not only the government response -- of course, putin has strengthened to beyond any nato activist wildest imaginings -- the corporate response, all of these companies pulling out, the effect of all of this? >> well, it remains to be seen, t i think your point is basically correct, the negative response that putin has elicited acro -- around the world, not everywhere, but most places around the world -- has been astonishing and heartening.

but let's see, i think it remains to be seen, what the policy effects are going to be. amy: we thank you for being with us, andrew bacevich, president and co-founder of the anti-war think tank, quincy institute for responsibl