ñçñqñqñqñqññññ#ñ#wwñ?ñ? ♪♪♪ lisa millar: for years, it's been an open secret. vincent doyle: as long as you have priests, you will have children of catholic priests. lisa: catholic priests who've broken their vow of celibacy to become fathers. michael patrick: i knew he was a priest when i was a child, but i couldn't tell them that i knew because i was a big secret. lisa: we talk to the children who've been pressured to stay quiet and suffered in silence. sarah thomas: this is just the tip of the iceberg, what we know at the moment. i think priests'hildren as a group want to be acknowledged. they want to be on the map. they exist. they're not collateral damage. lisa: some are speaking out for the very first time.

linda lawless: and i can just remember rocking, going, "i can't tell anyone. i can't tell anyone. i have to keep the secret." ♪♪♪ [church bells ringing] ♪♪♪ lisa: when catholics seek answers, they look to the vatican, the seat of power and decision-making for the church. for generations, if questioned about children of priests, the church said, "they don't exist. and if they do, they're an exception." lisa: it's hard to say how many children of priests there are around the world. there could be thousands. you mightn't have heard about it, but, believe me, they're talking about it behind these walls. we're on a journey to uncover the secrets of the children

who've been silenced for years. ♪♪♪ lisa: we're going to the very top to get some answers and to understand the depth of the hurt and the scale of the problem. lisa: this has been a very big deal, hasn't it, for the church? andrea tornielli: yes, yes. lisa: we'll speak to children of priests in a number of countries. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ lisa: the tourist guides boast that mount gambier in south australia offers unforgettable experiences and unique memories, but it's where this story starts for a woman who is missing a lifetime of memories. linda lawless: hi, how are you? well, welcome, come in. lisa: nice to meet you.

lisa: linda lawless has spent the last few years delving into her past, hoping for answers to the questions about who she is. linda is searching for her biological father. lisa: so, you gathered all of this together, and what does it tell you? linda: nothing adding up. more questions. like, i'm just not getting any answers, and it's just getting more and more confusing. lisa: when linda was eight, she made her first holy communion, and a family secret was revealed. linda: that was the same year i found out that my dad wasn't my real dad, so it was a big year. lisa: the devastating discovery about her stepfather not being her dad hit harder when her mother admitted she'd almost had her adopted at birth. lia: it was such a scandal, to be an unwed mother e was very ashamed, so she went to sydney to have me and

to--i was to be adopted out from sydney. this is a photo of my mom that was taken on the manly beach after i was born. always reminded me of what i didn't know and the unanswered questions and what did she go through. lisa: but at very last minute linda's mom decided to keep her newborn and take her home to melbourne, leaving unfinished paperwork. linda always knew there was more to the story, but never felt she could ask her mother. linda: she used to have a look of fear on her face, and you just knew in the end not to go there. there was something about it that was just, don't go the. lisa: it wasn't until after both her parents died that she felt she could start looking. she used the skills she developed as a part-time genealogist to investigate her own family history. lisa: so, all of this you were hoping was gonna bring clues.

linda: yes, and it's only given me more questions. a standard birth certificate has a family name. my certificate doesn't have that. i don't have a surname. i am still linda cathine nobody. lisa: a dna test came back, giving her more information than she'd ever expected: a strong match to a family called kelly. her aunt's reaction gave her the next piece of the puzzle. linda: and i just said to her, i said, "i do know one thing, though," i said, "i'm a kelly." and there was dead silence, and the next thing i heard her going, "oh my god, oh my god." she said, "i don't know how to tell you this," she said, "but he's a catholic priest." lisa: linda's aunt revealed how father joseph kelly was a great family friend back in the '60s. he'd often visit the house and take linda's mother and her sisters on picnics and day trips.

a romance blossomed with linda's mom, who was nearly 20 years younger than him. linda: they said he was a nice man, but they said he was a charmer, and he knew exactly what he was doing. when i found out who my father was, the stigma became even bigger again, and i remember thinking, "i can't tell anybody. i now have to carry the secret." i realized from--over a period of time that i can't keep the secret, and i need to step forward. lisa: and so, people used to have boats? linda: yes, yes, there was water down the bottom. lisa: linda's been using social media to try to find out more about her father, father joe kelly. she wants recognition from the catholic church, and she's discovered support for her quest from the other side of the world.

♪♪♪ lisa: it's in ireland that children of priests are finding their greatest advocate. thousands are using the internet and easier access to dna testing to discover the truth about their parentage. ♪♪♪ in the little village of ardagh to the west of dublin, i'm meeting the man who's bringing them all together. ♪♪♪ vincent: ah, lisa, how are you, good to see you. you're so welcome. good to see you. lisa: thank you so much. you've put the beautiful weather on for me. vincent: i think it's absolutely gorgeous, isn't it? it's great that you're here, fantastic, it really is always good. i think this is the vincent you've been waiting to meet, actually. lisa: oh, vincent, i'm lisa.

i can't believe it, there's too many vincents. vincent: it gets very confusing at times, so it does. lisa: it's very irish. lisa: as a child, vincent doyle spent nearly every weekend here at the parochial house with father jj, the man he believed to be his godfather. vincent doyle: it all seemed so much bigger, and when i came here first i was like, "it used to be bigger." and the priest said, "no, you used to be smaller." lisa: jj was parish priest here at the time, and vincent thought the world of him. vincent: i had this amazing childhood with this man who spoke greek, latin, and he'd traveled. and, you know, in the context of ireland at the time that was quite unique. there was a huge kindness to him. he was a father in everything but the word. ♪♪♪ lisa: jj died when vincent was 12, and it wasn't until he was 28 that he finally found out the truth: jj was his biological father.

vincent: i suppose my mother wasn't sure how to tell me, and she wanted me to know, but, to me, i mean, that was the antidote to the worst day of my life, the day i lost him, 'cause that day i got him back. i spoke to people afterwards about it, and i thought i had this big thing, "wait till you hear this." and they were like, "yeah, we kinda knew." and i was like, "i think everyone knew but--except me." lisa: even though it was now in the open, people didn't want vincent to talk about it. vincent: all these little phrases. "it's a matter of privacy." "discretion." lisa: what were they really trying to say? vincent: shut up. keep quiet. bury this. lisa: vincent doyle did the act oppote. he decided he'd set up a website which would help others in a similar situation. he called it coping, children of priests international.

vincent: and, like, within a few months there was, like, these--all these countries logging on. there was hits and google search phrases and graphs, and it took off: 13,500 people have come forward out of 175 countries. lisa: what does that say to you? vincent: that says that there's a mass need. there's people looking globally for information on this issue. why would 13,500 people in 175 countries go on to a search engine on the internet and type in things like "my father is a catholic priest," "alimony for priests' kids," "help, i am pregnant, and the father is a catholic priest"? lisa: no one knows for sure how many children of priests there are, but vincent has made his own estimates. vincent: we know of 10,000. i could stand before christ and say, "i know of 10,000 children of priests." that's conservative. that's very nservative. ♪♪♪ lisa: vincent realized that children of priests all share a common frustration: that the church

wants to keep them silent. he's determined to go to the very top and demand recognition. vincent: ultimately, i'm waiting for one thing. i want the pope to say the words "children of priests." that's what i want, and that will just be the beginning. lisa: a loving relationship like vincent doyle had with jj is exceptional for children of priests. more often, the experience damages the child. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ lisa: in this peaceful english country village, i'm going to meet a woman who knows better than anyone the trauma children of priests go through. sarah thomas: i think it nearly killed me, to be honest. i think i internalized the hurt to the point where i'd stopped

looking after myself. girl: hi. sarah: hi, sweetie. do you want some toast? lisa: sarah thomas is a mom now herself. sarah: and how many bits of homework have you got to do for tonight? girl: none--well, other than that stupid spanish test thing that i actually hate. lisa: she still finds it hard to accept how her own mother was treated by her father, a trainee priest, when she told him she was pregnant. sarah: he went, in her words, berserk and dumped her on the spot, basically, and sort of hid behind a more senior priest, who in the end masterminded a plan of secrecy to stop her ever telling me anything about him. lisa: they offered financial support, but only if she kept his identity secret. their intimidation worked for a while, but eventually sarah's mother told her that her father was a catholic priest.

and at 14, sarah wanted to meet her father. sarah: the fact that he was biological father to me was what interested me, and i was convinced that if he met me he would be thrilled and want to--and sort of sad that he'd missed out on those years, but really make up for it. lisa: the reality was very different. sarah: seeing him come into the room, very cold, i felt very full of shame and self-loathing, that i was the object of his shame and that there wasn't anything i could do at that point. i had to sort of sit this meeting out, knowing from his actions and how he was speaking that it would never go anywhere. lisa: that encounter started a spiral into darkness. sarah drank too much and partied too hard to try to blank it all out. sarah: i was injured in an accident when i was 20, and i

had so many multiple injuries that i was in hospital for a long time, but it was almost like having a second chance at life. i'm not gonna let my life be at all ruined by this, but at the same time i've got a steady flow of creative rage at what happened and what's happening right now to other priests' children. lisa: instead of turning away from her nightmare, she decided to face it. sarah: hiya. female: hi, how you doing? sarah: yeah, good. how are you? female: all right. sarah: you got my essay. lisa: she's doing a phd studying children of priests and has looked at how their experience compares with children who've been sexually abused. her research is throwing up some startling similarities. [indistinct conversation] sarah: there are patterns and themes. a very large percentage of my participants feel that the shame and stigma and the silencing that they've received from the

church and communities has contributed towards huge mental distress. was absolutely staggered, when i started analyzing my data, to find that 56% of my particants had either attempted suicide or had suicide ideation. that's hugely high. [indistinct conversation] lisa: through vincent's website, coping international, sarah and linda lawless have forged a friendship and now talk regularly and offer one another support. sarah: cool, have you found out anything more? linda: i'm slowly looking up some more information. again, it's been a big process, but we're still working on it. sarah: yeah, have you met any new people? linda: i have spoken to some family recently, so i hope to meet up with them soon. it'd be really cool. sarah: fantastic. oh, that's amazing. ♪♪♪

lisa: in london, i'm gonna meet a group of people who've been brought together by coping. they're starting to form a community, and i'm joining their regular catch-up at the local pub. michael patrick: i knew he was a priest when i was a child, but i couldn't tell them that i knew because it was a big secret. jo frazer-wise: i found out-- so i'm the youngest of five children. they're all the children of my parents, and i was in my 20s when i found out that, actually, my natural father is my godfather, who was a roman catholic priest. lisa: jo and michael's stories are forming part of sarah's research. their friendship has helped them unlock a lifetime of secrets. lisa: i kn sarah's been very up-front th us abouhow tough times have been. i would imagine it's a bit of a roller coaster. jo: but, actually, it's more the emotional side when you ar other people talk about the guilt, 'cause you feel guilty, even though it's not your guilt.

you know, that shame, that secrecy, that--when i--that was what was, for me, the game-changer. michael: well, you know, most of the people around it, they're all dead, there's only sort of a handful of people now, but you still feel a little bit guilty. for talking about it, yeah. sarah: yeah, i feel guilty. i still feel that shame and stigma even researching it and speaking publicly about it, and it's something that i have to battle every day, really. michael: with coping, you know, we've been able to get together with people, and, you know, you can see it. we're mirrors for each other, and, you know, you can see things from a different perspective, and, you know, you realize that you're not alone. lisa: the big concern is how to help the next generation of children of priests. lisa: do you hold out any hope that the church will recognize you guys? is that what you want? jo: i don't, i don't care what the catholic church thinks of me or--but i care about, as i say, that those children now. therefore, it is really important that the church as an

institution recognizes that there are children of priests and that there are still children of priests. lisa: children of priests want the church to be more active on their behalf, and it's back in ireland where they may have the best chance of that. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ lisa: i've been coming to ireland for over a decade, and i can barely recognize the place. on gay marriage, on abortion, on issues that were once dominated with what the church said, it's no longer the case. there's a real sense of progress here, a momentum for change. ♪♪♪

♪♪♪ lisa: in a bid to reject the secrets and lies that have dominated church affairs in ireland for centuries, the irish bishops are opting for openness. vincent got in the ear of archbishop diarmuid martin, one of ireland's highest-ranking clerics. diarmuid martin: and he came to tell me his personal story, about the fact that his father was a priest and that he was interested in following up the question of the chiren of priests. lisa: ter vincent's lobbying, the irish bishops helped to fund his website and published guidelines for what should happen when a priest fathers a child. lisa: tell me about the irish bishops' guidelines. archbishop martin: the irish bishops have produced guidelines which i think are reasonable guidelines,

to say how you proceed on this. you know, they're, as i say, reasonable, normal, but are looked on in some way as revolutionary. there's no need for them to be revolutionary. it's just common sense in many ways and basic common humanity. [church bells ringing] lisa: maynooth is best known as the training ground for ireland's priests. this is where the irish bishops traditionally meet and where the guidelines were published. vincent: well, thank god for the irish catholic bishops. they're doing something that is extraordinary, absolutely. vincent: maynooth is where i studied for four years-- lisa: the irish guidelines he pushed for put the welfare of the child first and treat each case individually. they stop short at asking the priest to step down.

earlier this year, the vatican admitted it has guidelines, too, but won't make them public. vincent's read them and can't see why not. lisa: why won't they make the guidelines public? vincent: because if you've got a solution, then you got a problem. lisa: but isn't the church's view that the priest has to leave? vincent: no person, man or woman, should be forced from their job for becoming a parent. how is that christological? how is that practical? and yet people buy into this argument of, "congratulations. you're a father. you're fired." this is what's driving the secrecy. these men, our fathers, my father, all these men are terrified. lisa: so, you could still be a good priest and father. vincent: absolutely, how can a child contradict a priest's love for god the father, how? lisa: nor does he want the church to use celibacy as a dtraction. vincent: so, what are we doing when we're talking

about celibacy, who are we talking about? the adult. my opinion is this: let's take care of the kids first, and anything that distracts from the kids, whether knowingly or unknowingly, is wrong. ♪♪♪ lisa: the children of priests we've met are frustrated at how hard it is to get the church to acknowledge them. lisa: i've come to rome to find out why it's so hard for them to get answers. they're the victims here. they've done nothing wrong apart from be born, and yet their very existence is a problem the vatican can't or won't deal with, at least not publicly. ♪♪♪ lisa: i've managed to secure an interview with the catholic church, but before that, i ask long-time vatican watcher nicole winfield what to expect.

lisa: a lot of the adult children of priests still feel that there's immense secrecy about it all. are you seeing a change at all in the response from the church? nicole winfield: it is still a taboo issue, even though they've acknowledged that it's a problem. it's evidence that priests are not doing what they're supposed to be doing, and i think any time the church leadership is confronted with that, the knee-jerk reaction is to recoil and not be fully transparent about it. lisa: but coming to rome to seek answers, we may well be disappoied, you think? nicole: if you can get the guidelines, all power to you. i would love to see them, i think a lot of people would like to see them. lisa: over the last few decades, the church has been damaged and disgraced by its cover-up of the clerical sexual-abuse scandal. i'm wondering if it will be more transparent in its dealings with children of priests.

andrea tornielli is the editorial director of vatican communications. he's agreed to be the church's spokesperson. lisa: thank you very much for your time today. we truly appreciate you speaking to us about this issue. andrea: okay, you're welcome. yeah, you're welcome. lisa: why can't the guidelines be made public? lisa: is it time to consider relaxing celibacy?

lisa: then, finally, a moment the children of priests have been waiting for: an acknowledgement of sorts. lisa: this has been a very big deal, hasn't it, for the church? andrea: yes, yes. not only--unfortunately, not only these stories, because the abuse cases is really painful, and it's important to change mentality. but this is another one, is on a different level, but so painful for people. ♪♪♪ lisa: back in australia, linda lawless's journey to find out who she is and more about her father isn't over. lisa: it's been a while since we first met. how have you been going? linda: yeah, really good, thanks.

i've been busy researching family members and different people, and today i'm going to meet peter finn, who was a friend of my father's. lisa: how are you feeling? linda: i'm really excited about it. to me, he's the closest person that i've come across to him yet. lisa: i've offered her a lift and a bit of moral support. ♪♪♪ peter finn: hi, linda. how are you? linda: i'm good, how are you? lovely to meet you. peter: it's lovely to meet you after this time too. linda: thank you so much for coming today. peter: our conversation on the phone, i really-- i found that very valuable, and just to be here today and talk to you is lovely too. linda: yeah, and to--you know, for you to take the time so i can learn more about my father is--it's gonna be really, really good. lisa: peter finn is a former catholic priest who worked alongside linda's father. father joseph kelly was a priest here in the '60s.

linda's mother lived close by. st. brigid's was where they would meet. peter: yeah, so, joe came down, really, to relieve and fill in for another priest that i was with who'd gone on holiday, so it was very interesting times, really, because i got to know joe in that period quite well. we sort of hit it off really quickly and really easily, so that was great. linda: yeah, i've heard he was well-liked. peter: yeah, very well, and even in my eulogy at his funeral, i was able to say a lot of things, good things, which you've got a copy of, but then now, to realize there was another side to him, which i didn't know. linda: it certainly affected my whole family, and my mother and myself, of course. peter: so, you feel free to ask me anything you want and i'll try and-- linda: i can't just at the moment. thank you so much. peter: that's all right. that's okay.

no, it's fine. lisa: for linda, remembering how hard it was for her mother and finally being able to talk to someone who knew her father, it's a big step forward, but it's a difficult one. peter: really tough on you. lisa: the past is different for each of the children of priests i've spoken to, but they all want the same thing for the future: freedom to speak openly, the right to be heard, and for the catholic church to treat them as individuals, not symbols of their father's failure. linda: i'm not doing the lies and the secrecy anymore. i'm not carrying that shame. i have to step past it. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

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