05/05/22 05/05/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> there is really no true solution to the problem of global food security without bringing back the agricultural production of ukraine and the food insecurity -- russ and belarus to world markets despite the war. amy: as u.n. secretary general antonio guterres visits nigeria,

he wants russia's invasion of ukraine is leading to growing hunger in many african countries. we will speak to human rights watch. then we will look at the european union's latest proposal to increase sanctions against russia. >> today we will propose to ban all russian oil from europe. this will be -- [applause] this will be a complete import ban on all russian oil, crude and refined. amy: plus, we will speak to yale university professor timothy snyder. he says russia's r in ukraine is a colonial war. >> the soviet union was created as a uon, federation with national names, precily because 100 years ago, even the r left in russia was perfectly aware ukraine was a nation and

had to be accommodated in some way. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the number of people who have died from covid-19 across the united states has passed one million sincthe first case rerted in whingtostate just or two yes ago. at is acrding t aount by nbc news, which wednesday became the first major u.s. media outlet to report the gruesome milestone. by all accounts, the true toll is far higher. nearly 1.3 million deaths according to the institute for health metrics and evaluation, which reports the u.s. likely surpassed the one million mark last december. while covid-19 deaths have slowed in recent weeks, cases are rising in all but four states and about 360 people

continue to die of the disease in the united states every day. in ukraine, air raid sirens soundeovernight as military and the pentagon sd were aimed at critical infrastructure. russian bombs and shells fell on power plants, el a ammunition depots, railway stations, even an amusement park where one woman was injured by shrapnel. this comes as the associated press reports russia's bombing of a crowded theater in mariupol on march 16 likely killed about 600 civilians who were sheltering inside, far more deaths than previously reported. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is calling for prolonged truce to rescue about 200 civilians in ukrainian fighters who remain holed up in the massive steel plant in mariupol. russia's military claimed it would halt bombing the plant for three days to allow for humanitarian corridor

ukraine says russia is reneged on similar pledges in the past. in moscow, the kremlin has denied president putin is preparing to formally declare war in ukraine during a military parade scheduled for may 9. russia's victory day. house speaker nancy pelosi says the lawmakers could vote as early as next week on president biden's request for $33 billion more in a ukraine, including another $20 billion for weapons and ammunition. the bill has bipartisan support on capitol hill. this comes as the associated report it has depleted the u.s. mass stockpile of weapons. meanwhile, "the new york times" the u.s. is providing ukraine's military real-time intelligence that it has used to target senior russian officers most of ukraine claims it hakilled apprimatel12 russian generals on the front lines. a new report finds world hunger surged to a record high in 2021

even before russia's invasion of ukraine earlier this year exacerbated a global food crisis. the e.u. and the united nations released the global report on food crises wednesday. it finds 193 million people in 53 countries or territories faced acute food security last year. that's a 40% rise from the previous record level, set in 2020. ethiopia, madagascar, south sudan, and yemen suffered the highest levels of hunger. speaking during a visit to nigeria's capital abuja, u.n. secretary general antonio guterres said 2022 is poised to set new records, as russia's invasion of ukraine disrupts wheat production and pushes global food prices en higher. >> there is really no true solution to the problem of global food security without bringing back the agricultural production of ukraine and the food production of russia and belarus into world markets despite the war.

i'm determined to do everything to facilitate dialogue that can help achieve this objective. amy: after headlines, how russia's invasion of ukraine is leading to a growing hunger crisis across africa. california governor gavin newsom has proposed an amendment to his state's constitution to enshrine the right to an abortion. the proposal follows the leak of a draft supreme court opinion this week that indicates a majority of justices are prepared to strike down roe v. wade. on wednesday, governor newsom told a crowd outside a planned parenthood clinic in los angeles that california will remain a safe haven for pregnant people seeking abortions, even as he warned the supreme court was poised to revoke other civil rights gains, like marriage equality. >> this supreme court is poised to rollback constitutionally protected rights -- don't think for a second, for a second this is where they stop. amy: in texas, top democratic party officials are continuing to support conservative democrat and incumbent congressmember

henry cuellar despite his long-standing opposition to reproductive rights. on wednesday, majority whip jim clyburn, the number three house democrat, traveled to texas to stump for cuellar at a get-out-the-vote rally. cuellar is antiabortion pro-gun, , and has backed private prisons, drone surveillance, and increased border security. he faces progressive challenger jessica cisneros in a tightly contested primary election runoff that ends may 24. cisneros was endorsed by the afl-cio, senators bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, and new york congressmember alexandria ocasio-cortez. she's a supporter of medicare for all, the green new deal, and reproductive rights. on wednesday, cisneros called on democratic party leaders to withdraw their support for her opponent. >> at every turn, my congressman has set in opposition to the democratic party agenda antiunion to being choice. with house majority on the line,

[indiscernible] future of reproductive rights in this country and we cannot afford that risk. amy: the federal reserve has raised u.s. interest rates by a half a percentage point, the largest such increase since 2000. fed chairman jerome powell said wednesday the widely-anticipated interest rate hike would help the u.s. economy beat back inflation, which is at a 40-year high. a comparatively low u.s. unemployment rate has led employers to raise wages to attract new workers, while disruptions to supply chains caused by the pandemic and russia's invasion of ukraine continue to push prices higher. a psychologist who helped the cia develop its torture program testified at guantanamo this week about waterboarding a saudi man at a secret cia black site in thailand. james mitchell said the prisoner, abd al-rahim al-nashiri, became so broken

after the waterboarding sessions that he would voluntarily crawl into a small wooden confinement box. al-nashiri is suspected of being -- accused of being the mastermind of the uss cole bombing. he was first detained in 2002 and then held at 10 secret cia sites over a four-year period before being transferred to guantanamo. an irish judge has ordered two members of u.s. veterans for peace to pay just over $10,000 for protesting at an irish airport used by the u.s. military to refuel planes heading to the middle east. the veterans, ken mayers and tarak kauff, who are now both in their 80's, entered the airfield on march 17, 2019 to inspect u.s. planes on the runway while carrying a larger banner that read -- "u.s. veterans say respect irish neutrality. u.s. war machine out of shannon airport. veterans for peace."

on tuesday a jury in dublin convicted them of interfering with the operation of shannon airport. they were acquitted of two other charges. back in the united states, the house select committee investigating the january 6 assault on congress has released text messages of donald trump, jr. pleading with the white house to condemn the insurrection at the u.s. capitol on the day of the riots. in one text message to white house chief of staff mark meadows on january 6, trump jr. wrote -- "we need an oval address. he has to lead now. it has gone too far and gotten out of hand." the text messages were released as trump jr. reportedly met privately with the january 6 committee to answer questions. meanwhile, two "new york times" reporters have released new audio tapes of house republican minority leader kevin mccarthy recorded two days after the insurrection. in the recordings, mccarthy is heard talking with an aide about the possibility of using the 25th amendment to remove trump from power. mccarthy appeared to oppose the

plan largely because it would take too long to implement. >> i think the options that have been cited by the democrats of far, the 25th amendment, which is not exactly helping the solution here. >> that takes too long. it would go back to the house, right? amy: days after those remarks, the house voted on a resolution calling on the vice president to activate the 25th amendment to remove donald trump from office. just one republican congressmember voted in favor of the measure. in labor news, workers at more than 50 starbucks stores have now voted to unionize. starbucks workers united has won union elections in 54 of 60 elections, a 90% win rate. the company is now fighting back by offering to increase worker wages and training but only at non-unionized stores. this is starbucks' billionaire ceo howard schultz. >> operated stores were we have the right to unilaterally make

these changes will receive these wages and benefit enhancements. this covers more than 240,000 starbucks at roughly 8800 stores across the country. we do not have the same freedom to make these improvements at locations that have the union or union organizing is underway. amy: in response, starbucks workers united has filed a formal charge with the national labor relations board. steven greenhouse, the former "new york times" labor reporter, tweeted -- "this smells like illegal discrimination against union members for having dared to defy howard schultz and unionize. i predict the national labor relations board will move quickly to find this a nationwide violation of federal law and will order starbucks to give unionized baristas the same wage increases." secretary of state antony blinken has tested positive for the coronavirus. state department spokesperson ned price said wednesday blinken

will isolate at home according to cdc guidelines. >> do good news is he is fully vaccinated, he is boosted, he is experiencing only mild symptoms. amy: blinken met wednesday with swedish foreign minister ann linde shortly before his positive test result. a day earlier, he met with mexican foreign secretary marcelo ebrard. on saturday, secretary blinken joined a crowd of 2600 celebrities, journalists, and washington elites who packed the white house correspondents' association dinner in washington, d.c., where few in attendance wore masks. the event has since been linked to a growing number of covid-19 cases, including journalists with voice of america, nbc news, cbs news, and politico. also testing positive was abc news correspondent jonathan karl, who was seated next to the reality tv star kim kardashian. karl also interacted briefly with president biden, who attended without wearing a mask. the comedienne trevor noah

addressed the crowd, opening with these remarks. >> it is my great honor to be speaking to the nation's most distinguished super-spreader event. for real, people. what are we doing here? let's be honest. have none of you learned nothing from the gridiron dinner? do you read your ownewspapers? i expect this from sean hannity, but what are you doing here? used in the last two years telling everyone the sum wearing masks and avoiding large gatherings. in the psych someone offers you a free dinner, you all turn into joe rogan. amy: the world health organization estimates the covid-19 pandemic has caused the deaths of nearly 15 million people around the world. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and , peace report. i'm amy goodman, joined by my co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world.

amy: we begin today's show looking at how russia's invasion of ukraine is leading to growing hunger in many african countries that rely heavily on ukraine and russia for wheat and fertilizer. this week the food deaf world food program site nearly 4.5 million tons of grain are blocked in ukraine's ports, which has impacted countries around the world that rely heavily on ukraine and russia for key food supplies like wheat. another report of the global network against food crises, and aligns that includeshe united nations and the european union. u.n. food crisis analyst luca russo said the report does not yet factor in the impact of the war in ukraine. >> [indiscernible]

what is importantor us is to make sure that we keep monitoring t countries most at ri of acute hunger and famine. because at the moment, because of the tension in ukraine, we forget -- amy: the new report finds nearly half a million people in ethiopia, southern madagascar, south sudan, and yemen are already facing the most severe phase of acute food insecurity -- catastrophe. on wednesday, u.n. secretary-general antonio gutteres addressed global food security during a meeting with the nigerian president muhammadu buha. they both spoke to reporters in in nigeria's capital, abuja. >> there is really no true solution to the problem of global food security without bringing back the agricultural production of ukraine and the prude reduction of russia and

the race to world markets despite the war. i'm determined to do everything i can to facilitate the dialogue that can help achieve objectives. >> at a time when entire attention is focused on the unfortunate situation in ukraine, we in this region are feeling already the world is forgetting about us. there can be no better assurance that the world is with us as we confront extreme terrorist organizations, hunger, and the enormous problems of dealing with millions of displaced people. amy: russian and ukrainian imports account for 30% of all african wheat consumption. for more, we are joined by lena simet, the senior researcher and advocate on poverty and inequality at human rights watch.

lead researcher for their new report titled "as war continues, africa food crisis looms." welcome to democracy now! it is great to have you with us, but under such dire circumstances. can you explain how the war has exacerbated not only the looming crisis, but the catastrophe that is taking place today in africa? >> thank you for having me. the war in ukraine has led to huge food shortages in many domestic markets and several african countries, but also sent food prices to new levels. if you look at some of the food price index the unite nations leases, the level in march has been the highest since it has been recorded in the 1990's. this has huge implications for domestic markets. in nigeria, for example, the ice of some essential staple foods,

including wheatjam, bary, has increased by more than 30% in the last year and has further heightened since the war began. the problem really is any people living on already low incomes that have been affected by the pandemic, that lost income then or economic activities, are now struggling to afford these increased prices for food and, therefore, skip meals, go hungry, and also reduce other expenses essential to fulfilling their lives, including health care or education. nermeen: could u elaborate? as the report points out as you have said, even prior to the war , so many countries in africa and elsewhere were facing acute food insecurity in part because of the pandemic. could you explain how the pandemic exacerbated existing

conditions and what other -- how exactly that happened and what other factors led to this worsening crisis and now catastrophic following the russian invasion of ukraine? >> yes. if you look at the numbers in 2020 around food insecury, you see many regions within africa had already extremely high levels of food insecurity. i am talking seven out of 10 people, six out of 10 people, so 60%, 70% of the population experiencing food inserity. so the pandemic has exacerbated the situation further since he disrupted trade, it disrued trade flows within the region so not only globally, and therefore, already increasing prices and domestic markets. we also have to look at climate

change events that occurred during this time. for instance, droughts in kenya that reduced crop production. so all these changes within the availability of food has sent the food prices to new levels. so the war in ukraine further exacerbated the situation is two countries are among the top five level exporters of some staple foods, including vegetable oil, but also cereals, and account for about one third of the world's wheat exports. nermeen: can you talk about the countries that have been most affected in africa and what conditions there are on the ground? >> yes, so the report that was released last week specifically at the situations in nigeria an cameroon, as well as kenya.

here the situations are quite dire where, again, six out of 10 people are experiencing food insecurity and are not having enough to eat or enough quality food. so the implications are huge for the long-term term, since it may affect economic well-being in the years to come. not only an immediate emergency, but also long-term. generally speaking, i was at the countries most affected in the region are those where government budgets are already quite high and have taken on what that epidemic -- endemic progress, which limits the ability to respond to this emergency situation and providing more food or financial assistance to the population. and where food insecurity was already very high. an additional layer i should

mention also that some countries like cameroon have over time shifted the agricultural model and have dependent more on food imports rather than the domestic production. these countries that are importependent are the ones particularly affected by the destruction in the global commodity market. amy: can you talk about solutions that are being proposed? and also, if you are seeing that the increased funding for weapons in ukraine is being taken directly from humanitarian relief in places like africa? >> in terms of the solutions, we're calling for more economic, financial assistance going to countries in need. we also call for more social

protections for people on the ground, which means providing them a safety net in situations where food is getting more expensive which any people can't afford. and this includes, of course, the question around global aid, where is it going and can we shift neither isis modes. here again, i need to find out the danger of the increase in the global food prices that is presented to organizations like the world food program, which gathers are used together 50% of that wheat supplies from ukraine and russia. so that has been disrupted enormous lean. what we're calling for is on other exporting countries like the united states, canada, and other countries to also open their markets, to not introduce export restrictions, and provide

essential grains at an affordable price to humanitarian organizations so they can further support countries with populations in need. nermeen: finally, the report points to the role of international multilateral financial institutions like the world bank and the international monetary fund. could you explain the role they might play in exacerbating the crisis and what you think they ought to do instead, what they can do to alleviate it? >> yes. international financial institutions like the imf and the world bank play a huge role in supporting countriesn times like these with loans and financial support in responding. however, there is a huge concern that many of these packages come with strings attached, calling

for austerity measures in the near or more distant future. so this could lead to cuts in social spending, education, and health care. these are practices that we have seen in the past, conducted by such organizations, and we are calling on them to look for alternative ways to recuperate some of these debt levels. and that could be done by more progressive taxation measures, corporate taxes, addressing tax avoidance and tax evasion. so instead of putting the burden on people who are already suffering the most people in poverty, search for alternative situations and avoid austerity that are harmful to human rights. amy: lena simet, thank you for joining us senior researcher and , advocate on poverty and inequality at human rights watch. we will into the report -- leak

to the report "as war continues, africa food crisis looms." coming up, the european union's unbilled proposal to ban all russian oil imports by the end of the year. we will go to ukraine to get response. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. the european union has unveiled a proposal to ban all russian oil imports by the end of the year as part of a sixth round of sanctions over russia's invasion of ukraine. european commission president ursula von der len spoke o wednesday. >> today we are addressing our dependency on russian oil.

let's be clear, it will not be easy because some member states are strongly dependent on russian oil, but we simply have to do it. so today we will propose to ban all russian oil from europe. this will be -- [applause] this will be a complete import ban on all russian oil seaborne and pipeline, crude and refined. amy: under the proposal, eu member nations would phased out crude oil imports within six months and refined oil imports by the end of the year. the european union is considering giving exemptions to hungary and slovakia to allow them to keep importing russian oil for a longer period of time. on wednesday, kremlin spokesman dmitry peskov responded to the proposed ban. >> the sanctioned aspirations of

the americans europeans and other countries, this is a double-edged weapon trying to harm us, they too, have to pay having price. they are already doing that, a big price and the cost of the sanctions for european citizens will increase every day. amy: to talk more about the eu's proposed ban on oil, we are joined by tymofiy mylovanov. he is president of the kyiv school of economics, an associate professor at the university of pittsburgh, and former minister of economic development, trade, and agriculture of ukraine under president zelenskyy. we welcome you back to democracy now! if you can start off by responding to this announcement this week of the total russian oil bands by the european union, though there will be some exceptions. >> it has been in planning for a while. i personally have been in a number of groups which have been discussing the details. there are a lot of details because on paper, it looks good. in practice, need to have the

flavors and discuss what constitutes russian oil. for example, if you buy russian oil and mix it with known russian, which percentage doesn't stop become being russian oil? there will be dozens of attempt to bypass it, but hopefully, the final document will be sufficiently proper as this ban is implemented. nermeen: what would the effects of this ban be? >> financial in russia, it will lose several hundred million aid . to put it in perspective, russia recently paid a coupon on his foreign debt and was a discussion of default or not. the total payment was 600 million euros to 700 million euros. we are talking about russia today in daily receipts from the eu getting much more than it is

spending, regardless of the sanctions, it has enough liquidity to continue to finance the war. so it is a step forward, but it also received a lot of funding from gas. and that will continue to be sold to europe most of so some of the funding will continue to go to russia. nermeen: how do you respond to those who say russia will just find alternative buyers once this goes into effect? china, possibly india? >> in theory, that is how we teach economics in class. in practice, it depends on logistics and the relationship with other countries. china cannot simply increase the capacity to pump the existing pipeline, so there are some limits. india, while there could be ways to deliver -- and yet is also

trying to navigate relationship with other countries. the discussions i have been a part of, there have been mechanisms to encourage other countries not to help russia bypass. furthermore, data shows already russia's experts in oil in terms of actual volume, not prices come has dropped during the war by 30%, which shows sanctions has already taken place. it is theoretical that they will simply substitute different buyers. amy: even if russia substitutes different buyers, what about europe and the countries that it will become more reliant on? they talk about the reason for cutting off the whale from cash oil from russia is because of what russia has done in ukraine and supporting democracy, not autocracy. attorney to places like saudi

arabia, now understood william burns, the cia director, just made a secret trip there. >> that is correct. many of the suppliers of oil in the alternative suppliers -- the question is, unfortunately, we are dealing with regimes and some have aggressive military powers and others are not. the calculus is for the time being, while russia continues to be an aggressive military, we have to be dealing with the less aggressive states. and we will have to find a way to build the future with russia when it is not using the military force that aggressively. nermeen: could you talk about the political and also symbolic significance of germany coming out in supporting this ban? germany itself very reliant on russian oil, though, of course,

there have been reports that germany agreed to this only once it had found alternative sources. but germany's position on russia has been very different over the last several decades. so what is the significance of germany taking this position now? >> that is true. in many ways, through prudent country, germany, has come to defend so much on when supplier and prior to the war. entering the war, the position of germany was we need to find future solution to the situation in europe through negotiations with russia. perhaps has not been aired publicly but you and i have heard it many times in prior conversations with members of parliament, that eu representatives of german

clinical elites, and now they have turned -- the table has turned and they have switched their position and to me that signifies they believe this diplomatic solution is not going to be effective and russia is playing a different game and it has to be stopped by force. in that sense, it is much more significant and economic implication of the ban. it is a political change in germany. amy: tymofiy mylovanov, can you talk about the pipelines i go through ukraine and what this means for them going to europe, providing much of the oil to europe? many people don't realize those pipelines are continuing of ukraine, to russia -- or russia continuing to pay ukraine for allowing this to go through ukraine. >> correct. there are two types of supplies which go through ukraine and througother countries, but there are jor pipelines and

oil pipelines. and the ukrainian what is called -- gas transportation system, there is significant income -- well, significant on the border of several million dollars, coming on the payments for this transportation. not so much in oil, but gas. oil is less of an issue. but if you put it in perspective, $2 billion or $3 billion is approximately 1% ukrainian gdp and we're suffering and losing 40%, 50% of gdp including the world bank report, from the war. we will do what it takes. we are happy and ready to stop and enforce the embargo. this one is significant -- insignificant and should not be compared relative to the lives that are lost in the cause of the war. nermeen: you said earlier that

germany has given up on the prospect of diplomacy with russia. why that? finally, may 9. what do you expect to happen on victory day in russia? what steps might russia take that? >> there are different cultures -- the west is trying to build the future of prosperous and free economies and societies. rsus russia has become, unfortunately, for the world, in essence a collector of land. it is hard to have a diplomatic solution if very different objectives and you're not understanding each other. have different perspectives in what the value of the future is. i think russia -- germany has come to realize that russia is simply thinking differently about what diplomacy is.

diplacy for russia is about kind of creating a narrative which supports forceful cture of land. unfortunately, russia believes e force is first and diplomacy a second versus civilized world has learned diplomacy should go first. may 9 is an important day in history, an official victory day. by the way, i think russia has kind of expropriation were exploited the soviet union legacy. ukraine was a part of the soviet union and many ukrainians died in world war ii defending the soviet union and fighting the nazis. they are not the only party to the soviet union. i think they will try to claim or declare some kind of victory for the domestic audience and that means most likely they will

doomething really nasty in mariupol. it is unlikely they will be able to achieve any of their strategic objectives such as encircling the ukrainian troops are capturing large -- or capturing large and eastern areas of ukraine, even though that look like that was the plan. i expect a lot of bombardment, missiles in the next week and something "symbolic was put of the soviet union and mariupol. " the russian foreign minister has denied that putin, as was predicted by some, declare war on ukraine on victory day. i have to ask you, tymofiy mylovanov, before you leave, we are talking to you like an economist like we talked to economists around the world, but you're not a typical analyst. you are the president of the kyiv school of economics, you

are in kyiv. how is your family dealing with this? how are you? how are you affected? >> you know, yeah, you're correct. we started a fundraising effort and raised te of billions of dollars, actually $23 million, and we're s supplying everything from medical to bulletproof vests. otionally, we cry. we have nightmares. we got used to -- we are used to air sirens. it is abler. since february 24, we are exhausted. every time we read about a friend who died or cashed out a friend, but just someone who was raped or tortured and it is coming daily. you can't shut it off. we are inside of this. every night hear from someone

-- i have not been hit yet personally, and i've been fortunate, but a lot of my friends have. many have died. many of our alumni and students have died. some have been tortured. life goes on. we fight, resist, we want and survive as a nation, so we work and fight and persevere. we thank you for having us. thank you for giving us a voice. amy: thank you for being with us, president of the sool of econics, assocte profess at the unirsity of ptsburgh, anformer minter of ecomic develoent, tradend agriculture of ukraine under -- speaking to us from western

ukraine. coming up, timothy snyder says russia's were in ukraine is a colonial war. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: wednesday song which was created around a james baldwin quote. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as we continue our discussion about ukraine examining the historical context of the russian invasion with an historian who says putin's war is a colonial one. timothy snyder is a professor of history at yale university and a permanent fellow at the institute for human sciences in vienna. he is the author of several books. "the road to unfreedom: russia, europe, america" and "on tyranny: twenty ssons from the twentieth century." expanded version, audio version is just out, updated with 20 new lessons from russia's war with

ukraine. in his recent article for "the new yorker," which is "the war in ukraine is a colonial war." he talks about just what that means. welcome back to democracy now! what exactly do you mean? >> i have in mind the whole history of colonialism, which is very familiar to us from european or american cases involves denying other people israel coming tonight another state is real, and that is the premise of russia's invasion of ukraine. mr. putin has made clear for the past 10 years or so he does not believe ukrainians are people and he does not believe the ukrainian state is actually a real state. those are the classic arguments that europeans made for 500 years. the premises are colonial and

the practices are also colonial stop this war is being carried out not only to win territory, but to try to decapitate ukrainian society, to try to separate families from another, to try to subordinate the territories that have been conquered to a larger russian empire. that is what i had in mind. nermeen: could you talk about the historical antecedents for russia, russia's colonial history in what they called the near abroad? >> there is -- if i could, there is a longer history of ukraine being the target of colonialism even then there is a history of the russian empire. the first colonization of ukraine was actually from the site of poland in the 17th century. russian colonization of ukraine begins in the 17th and 18th centuries and it becomes

pronounced as the form of empire in the 19th century when we begin to have this idea of the kind of ethic imperial idea that ukraine is not a separate place, ukrainian language does not really exist, ukrainian culture does not exist. if it does exist, it should be banished. the russian empire was obviously conceived of as an empire, but then as we move into the 20th century, there are near imperial ideas from both the soviet side and the nazi german side. nermeen: input you site is accurate that russia's same in ukraine are in fact colonial, then what kind of resolution would be possible in this war? >> i think that is a very important question because, look, colonialism is all about recognition of a subject, right?

others write about this. russia does not recognize ukraine as a subject. it is not nice ukrainians as existing. therefore, from the ukrainian point of view, quite understandably and, this is an existential situation. when you're faced with a war destruction, you are in an existing situation. so from the ukrainian point of view, the only way toward peace is victory. which i think is correct. the only way for russia to understand this ideology is for it not to work in practice. that is to say, for the russians to be forced to acknowledge that ukraine actually exists. if that is our measure, we can see a certain amount of progress. late lester, russians were refusing to -- the kremlin was refusing entirely to recognize the ukrainian existence. it insisted on talking to the americans. he described floating where

zelenskyy is some kind of illegitimate -- volodymyr zelenskyy some kind of illegitimate jewish clan leader. the notion that they will have to negotiate with ukraine is becoming normal. i'm afraid the only way to resist the colonial war is -- if you're on the side of the people who are being colonized is to win that war. amy: i want to go back to world war ii, to what you talked about , both the soviet union and nazi germany occupying ukraine, what this meant for the ukrainians and the sides that ukrainians took in this, especially in the german occupied side and a western ukraine, places like lviv and other places. >> ukraine is fascinating because it brings together the

big themes of world history. in the 20th century, at least in my view, the main theme is colonization and decolonization. in that major theme, we have certain attempts at deal in part, european powers try to establish empire on new premises. if you look at history of the 20th century in europe from the ukrainian int oview, at is what you tend to see. the soviet union is a project of repeatg the stages of capitalism at an accelerated pace. one of the stages from -- his imperialism. it is quite clear who's going to treat the territories of the soviet union, particularly peripher as a kind of colonial territory to be exploited. within that framework, it is pretty easy to understand why it is ukraine with its fertile black earth was the center of exploitation in the soviet union during the first -- leading to a famine which many ukrainian's died.

hitler, looking at the famine, at stalin's attempt to control food sources, thought this was a good idea because his view of ukraine was also the black earth could be a basis for the creation of a new kind of empire, different kind of empire, a racial empire. so hitler's main was to control ukraine and its lack earth. nazi colonialism in 1941, did attempt to displace the soviet project decline -- devising. what is essential is ukraine is in the middle. these overwhelming forces. in terms of the size of -- the vast majority of ukrainians who fought in the second world war as mentioned in the previous segment were fighting in the right army. farmer ukrainian side fighting germans than americans do. or ukrainians died than

americans average combined. i'm sure we had a mind with the question,hough, the issue of ukrainian nationalism, which is one of the main things i've studied in my career. ukrainian nationalism is a minor terrorist underground activity in interwar poland. the organization of ukrainian nationalists have their day after 1939, which is when the soviet union and nazi germany unite according to terms of the pact to destroy poland. with the destruction of poland, ukrainian nationalists come out of prison and see they have an opportunity because they want to support a power which can destroy both poland and the soviet union. they side, politically with germany.

when they fail to overthrow, 1943, they switch sides and go underoundgain and try to fight against the soviet union on their own. along the way, they have to cleanse quite a number. they are defeated and are crushed. their families -- ukrainians will be overrepresented in the gulag for the soviet union. today the far right in ukraine, .5% and 2.5 percent, which means it is far less than in russia with the far right is in power or in countries like germany or the united states, for that matter. nermeen: i wouldike to go back to what you were saying about what would constitute a victory and war at you call a colonial war, which is stanley the defeat of the colonizing power. but what about some kind of compromise solution, which is what some observers have been suggesting is the most likely outcome, namely, the division

within ukraine? >> well, i guess we have to be very careful ourselves about not falling into colonial language when we talk about ukraine. when i talk about ukraine as having a colonial history, that is meant as a kind of self-awareness check for all of us. we, too, have a certain tendency -- a strong tendency in the west, in the united states, on the left often, by way of the imperial center, which is moscow . this war is a chance for us to rethink our concepts. if we think of ukraines a colonial -- the side of colonial war, the first thing we have to do is listen to what the ukrainians himself say. the kind of historical check we would carry out in american history if you're trying to type devices of white americans, for example, we have to carry out --

have to think, ok, what do the ukrainian say about this? we have to remember ukraine is a sovereign state. so when there is a peace agreement, as i hope there will be as soon as possible, that agreement will be negotiated between ukraine and russia, between those two sovereign states. should the ukrainians choose to make some kind of arrangement involving u.n. sovereign territory, that is their business. i will point out, though, if we look at this is a general suite of colonial warfare, say from that judge or french or spanish, generally what happens is the colonial power has to realize it has exhausted before you get to that kind of a deal. i wish that weren't true but that is a sweet seems to tell us. only when the french when they are exhaued in algeria or southeast asia only when the dutch realize they are hausted

in indonesia or someone does it show -- and so on, does it show. the ukrainians have been talking all along about making a deal. when i more concerned about is when it becomes a matter of understanding a moscow that it deal has to be made. as i said earlier, whatever that deal is, we are not the ones who get to say with that deal is, but whatever that deal is, i'm afraid only will come when ukraine wins because that is the only thing that can lead to that kind of rethinking on the part of the imperial power. nermeen: i suppose one of the massive differences between the french colonization of algeria or the british in india or the the dutch in indonesia, this is substantially being supported by the american with tens of millions of dollars potentially of additional military aid. what do you think the impact of that will be and your response

to those who say this will just prolong the war and not actually change the terms of it? >> that is a beautiful point you are making. i think when we think about ukraine and what we ought to do versus -- it forces us to think back to more recent cases like syria. in terms of american aid to ukraine, if the ukrainis were to capitulate -- first of all, we can't stop ukrainians from fighting even if we did not harm them, they would still fight because they understand this is an existential war. with her not to accept my framework for colonial work, they see this as a war of resistance. so whether or not we arm them, they're going to fight. the notion we can turn this on and off like a water spigot is i'm sorry to say, it is more american colonialism. we don't have that kind of power. we can help them try to win and

that is on this analysis the best way to try to end this war. as we have seen in bucha and mariupol and everywhere the russians have occupied, they rely are carrying out a war in which they are executing local civic leaders come executing military age, sending n and women more than a million people to russia that will never be ukrainian again. there carrying this out in principles. therefore, if it is a colonial war, even if we could get ukrainians to capitulate -- amy: we have 10 seconds. >> but if they did, all you would see would be the continued colonial genocide of ukraine. i can't see that something to be wished for. amy: timothy snyder is a professor of history at yale university.

his books include a revised version of "on tyranny: twenty lessons from the twentieth century." a belated happy birthday to denis moynihan! democracy now! has an immediate opening for a news writer producer. go to democracynow.orglo)?■o ó

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