>> hello. this is al jazeera. these are the headlines -- police and the u.s. have detained a person of interest in connection to a shooting at a fourth of july parade in the chicago suburb. the gunman opened fire from a rooftop in highland park, killing six people and injuring more than 30. we have more now from washington, d.c. reporter: a few hours ago the police released photographs of robert crimo iii and a destruction of the car he was driving along with the license plate.

it appears not long ago a police chicago actually about 15 minutes north of highland park where the shooting actually took place saw the car. there was a brief pursuit and the car eventually did come to a stop and crimo was taken into custody. police have been very careful with the language they are using and they are still calling him a person of interest. they have not charged him with the shootings they say. they are connecting him with a shooting. >> the u.s. says it is likely al jazeera journalist shareen walkley was killed by unintentional gunfire from is really positions -- israeli positions, but they could not reach a conclusion on the origin of the bullet. she was killed in may, while reporting in the occupied west bank. politicians are being asked, as

well as will the sibling groups come onto, hold discussions to form a civilian government. more than 150 people have been killed in western ethiopia. the prime minister has blamed an armed group on the country's terror list. those are the headlines. next, "inside story." ♪ rob: dutch farmers are angry. they say plans by the government to reduce nitrogen emissions will harm their livelihood. the netherlands is the second largest agricultural exporter. so, what is this going to mean for global food supplies? this is "inside story." ♪

rob: hello. welcome to the program. i'm rob matheson. farmers in the netherlands are blocking roads, setting fire to haystacks, and even driving tractors through the streets of the hague. it's all in protest against laws that regulate emissions produced by livestock, but are likely to have a major impact on the farming community and the larger economy. the netherlands has failed to meet its emissions reduction targets, so permits for new homes and roads have not been granted since 2019 to prevent further pollution. and the government's introducing tough new rules. its $100 billion food export industry, one of the biggest in the world, could be badly affected, and this is happening when the war in ukraine is already putting global food supplies at risk. now, we're going to bring in our guests in a moment. first, this report from steph vassen in nekherek, in the netherlands. reporter: farmers have said they

want to paralyze the entire country. they have announced that they want to block access to the main airport, other airports, the port, and rotterdam. the situation has been escalating between farmers organizations, the farmers themselves, and also the government on the other side. in the last couple of weeks, there have been farmers detained at certain actions. police was involved. there has been aggression also towards the minister. and now, here we are, at the food distribution center. one of the 25 that are being blocked today by farmers. let's have a look around. we see the trucks here. they were ready to go to supermarkets, full of food, meat, dairy products. you can hear the cooling machine still running, but they can't go anywhere, because look at the other side, there are tractors, there are trucks. there are farmers sitting here. they say, no farmers, no food, so they say, we want to let the people in the netherlands know that the farms can't be closed, because they're very essential

for food production around the country. the government has announced that the farms have to cut more than 50% of the nitrogen emissions in some areas. in some areas, even up to 90%. there has been research showing that the effects of nitrogen pollution on the ecosystems in the netherlands is pretty dramatic. and the farmers also say that these figures are not correct. they say, we want a better solution. the government has announced that they want a mediator to be involved, but the farmers have said this mediator is not acceptable to us. they're sitting here, they're waiting here for maybe up to two days. some of them we spoken to them before have already sold their farms, because they were not capable financially to run their business. you can see here slogans, if there is no farmers, there won't be food in the supermarkets. that's what they say.

some have even brought some hay. they're sitting here on it. they brought their wooden shoes. it's really a protest. they say they had no choice. we are fed up. and if you push us to the limit, this is what we're gonna do. but the question, of course, remains today, how the dutch public will respond to this, when there's no food or there's empty shelves in supermarkets today? rob: so, what's the plan that's caused so much anger? well, dutch farmers have been told to cut nitrogen emissions to between 12% to 70%, depending on how close they are to conservation areas. those areas are part of what the european union is calling natura 2000. it's the largest coordinated network of protected areas in the world. farmers whose land is inside natural reserves will have to cut by 90%, and those who can't do that will have one of three options -- switch to crop farming, relocate, or quit the trade.

♪ okay. let's bring in our guests. they're all joining us from the netherlands. in zevalde, we have jeroen van maanen. he's a dairy farmer and a protest organizer in amsterdam. -- he's a dairy farmer and a protest organizer. in amsterdam, natasja oerlemans is a food and agriculture expert at the world wide fund for nature netherlands. and theo mandersloot is a mediator between producers and buyers at agracom. he's also a member of agratis, one of the largest farmers action groups in the netherlands. a very warm welcome to you all. thank you very much indeed for being with us. natasja, i want to start with you. this is about nitrogen and ammonia at its heart. why are they thought to be so bad? >> well, ammonia and nitrogen specifically has a huge impact on biodiversity, especially in nature areas, and unfortunately, the dutch agricultural sector is one of the major contributions to nitrogen emissions, affecting biodiversity.

in the netherlands, we still have we are facing a biodiversity crisis and this is because of decades of government looking away, and finally the government has made a decision to do something about it and this is causing a major disruption, because farmers weren't aware that they needed to change, but basically this is not a surprise. it has been going on for decades, and now, there's finally an opportunity to make this change and to have the budget, to enable farmers to actually transition to a more sustainable, nature friendly way of producing food. rob: jeroen, you're shaking your head there. is this about nitrogen and pollution, or is there something else going on here? >> no, well, we have a few different problems. but the main cause of this hole is because some left-wing parties in the dutch government want to have a reduction of the dutch national herd, at least by 30%. well, they wanted to have 50%, but that's the main cause of all. and when we look into the

nature, the point, like natasja was telling you about, reports, all of them say over the last few years, 85% of that nature is in perfect condition. of the 15% of the nature which is not in good condition, there are about 1500 ways to improve the nature. and about 50% of these 1500 ways is not even done yet in the netherlands. and nitrogen pollution is only one of them. so that's what the dutch farmers are saying. when some bit of nature, the 15% needs to be improved, that's okay. but then we use all the different ways you can do to improve nature. and nitrogen pollution is only one of them. so, in this case, and what we also say as the -- as the agriculture sector, over the last 30 years, we already reduced almost 70% as

the agriculture sector. so on this point, no other sector did a reduction like agriculture did over the last 30 years. rob: natasja, i know you want to come in, but i do want to bring in theo here. the dutch government, as natasja was explaining, has brought together some sort of attempt at a solution. and yet, it seems to be constantly rejected by the farmers. why are none of these solutions acceptable? >> the dutch government is only working in one way. the farmers organization and the netherlands offered the dutch government i think almost thousands of suggestions to do something. to reduce nitrogen. to help the nature. but it is not about the nitrogen. it's about rearranging the public space in the netherlands. and this is the only reason why the government is not speaking

with farmers, but over farmers, and not taking the handshake. what the farmers want to get to the government. because the farmers give a lot of suggestions about lowering nitrogen. trying to make the nature better. to help the environment. to do something with the water quality and everything more. and the dutch government is just saying something about critical goals and nothing about innovation or possible solutions. so this is the reason why we are

in this way protesting, because the government is not listening in any way to the farmers. they are just taking their own way and going straight forward to reach their goals, instead of looking at nature. because the farmers need nature to produce the highest levels in the world. and what at the moment is happening is that the government is just telling something about nitrogen and a lot of higher levels. but if this is a really a problem, then they would also suggest to speak about our airports, about freight, or about the barges, about freight, about traffic, and this kind of thing. but none of them are involved with some measures. only the landscape and the farmers will be threatened by our government. so this is not okay. rob: let me bring you in there,

nastaja, because they both are saying that this is the nitrogen, and the impact of nitrogen and ammonia is forms a small part of the situation. that in fact this is about a wider issue. that the government is actually wanting to change the land use within the country. what's your response? how do you react to that? >> my response is as follows. there's no doubt that biodiversity is affected by nitrogen in the netherlands. there are numerous reports that are indicating that. but something needs to change, and not from an ecological perspective, but also from a legal perspective. and that's why the highest court in the netherlands rules that nitrogen depositions in the netherlands and emissions should reduce by 50% in 2030. but apart from that, i agree with the other speakers, that there is more happening in the netherlands. because we also have a water quality and air quality problem, the water quality in the netherlands is far below what is needed to comply with the water framework directive in europe. so our drinking water, our groundwater is at the moment so

polluted, and agriculture is also one of the polluters of that. so, apart from nitrogen affecting biodiversity, we are also talking about air pollution and water pollution. and this is also the reason i think why we need to have a transition of agriculture that is ticking all those boxes of things that need to change. and this major transformation of agriculture, even though it will affect farmers, it can also be seen as an opportunity to really transition a broken food system into a system that is good for nature, but also provides a future for farmers, a new future, because the system that we are in right now is a system that is broken and is not working for farmers every day. five farmers in the netherlands stopped their business because there's no future. so the current system is not working for farmers, it's not working for biodiversity, it's not working for our health, because the air quality in the netherlands is really below a level that is healthy.

so, i do agree with them, that not only agriculture needs to change, but that we also have to look at traffic, at industries, and so on. but the fact is -- and that's the thing with the nitrogen case, is that agriculture at the moment, and especially dairy farming, is contributing the most, with 60% of the national emissions being caused by mainly the dairy sector. so that's the start of the change. but i totally agree, that we have to look much broader, and that we have to look at a situation in which the current system in the netherlands, both for food producing and the way we use our land, needs to be rearranged. and it means, especially for farmers, that a transition is needed, but that's why the government also puts 35 billion euros in the budget over the next decades, to help with that transition, and to support that transition. and i would really, really value if farmers would come up with an

offer in how they can contribute and what the price -- and the costs are that society also has to pay, because i do think that this problem is not being caused by farmers, because they are also a victim of the current system, but that the farmers are the solution, and that they can help in bringing the netherlands to a future where it's green, not only for nature, but also for us people. rob: i'm going to stop you there, because i want to bring in jeroen. forgive me for interrupting you. but i want to bring in jeroen, because he clearly is has got very strong feelings about this. explain something to me, because from what i've heard so far, the government seems to have an end goal of improving the environment within the netherlands. so do the farmers, from what theo was saying. it's intrinsic to the farmers. it's important to the farmers that nature should be sustained. that their livelihood should be sustained. where is this breaking down? where is the problem with this? that when you're both working towards the same end goal, if

you like, you can't find some sort of common ground to be able to move forward. >> but i wanted to respond on what natasja said right now, it's not true and it is very hypocritical also, whatever problem you look at, if it is nitrogen pollution or co2 or whatever, the use of antibiotics, dutch agriculture is champion of the world. right now, when we focus on nitrogen pollution, the law which is now a plan from our minister, it will cause probably about 40% of the dutch farmers to have to stop their business and production will have to get away outside of holland. you know? every country in the world is on a lower standard for nitrogen pollution, for co2, or whatever problem. so when we get rid of dutch farmers, other farmers in the world need to take care of the same production. we need more land use.

there's more use of water. all the problems natasja is saying, you know, you can say something about dutch water quality. and it always can be improved. we have innovations for that. but when you put food production to other countries in the world standards were lower. so that in 10 years' time, the dutch citizens are eating food which is produced on a lower standard than it is produced right now. you know, when we want to solve a problem, we have not only holland in the world, but we need to see climate and nitrogen as a worldwide problem. and then we can improve the world. by getting to dutch standards, not only to get rid of farmers in holland, because it's only moving the problem away out of sight and nothing is solved. so it's ridiculous. and also hypocritical. rob: theo, let me ask you this, because from what i if i understand natasja correctly, the government has put money in place in order to be able to help farmers transition from livestock.

when this is predominantly livestock farming that we're talking about. to move from livestock farming into crop farming, it's providing money for farmers who feel that they're not able to meet the standards so that the farms will be bought out. it seems to me as though the government is at least putting some money towards this. let me ask you this -- what is preventing livestock farmers from making the transition from animal to crop farming? >> the biggest issue is that the government has unreachable goals for themselves. and they are only speaking over farmers, not with farmers. they are not interested in any innovation or in any solution. we are working as the agricultural sector already for decades on innovation, and on

solutions to reduce our emissions. and what's happening now is that our government in the past pointed to 162 areas of nature, this nature, they want to have some habitats in it which they want to have protected, some little insects or something. so that's really nice. and we like this also, as farmers. but the biggest issue is that if they are using the nitrogen goals, if we just empty the whole netherlands, all farmers, all citizens, we still have a huge problem. because we have the nitrogen and the water quality, which is coming from the eastern part of europe. and what is floating into the netherlands.

so we can do what we want and we can try to do the best that we can with what we have, but it is not reachable. it's not possible. furthermore, it sounds really nice -- 30 5 million euros for the agricultural sector in the netherlands for the farmers. but this is not the truth. first of all, they don't have the money for it. and second, they have tried to improve something and tried to help the farmers with some changes. but if you look at what was happening a few weeks ago, in our government, we had a dutch farmer getting money from the government for his nature goals, and the dutch government was telling him, ok, it is very nice that you changed your farm to

nature living, but this year, we will end your payments for all your efforts. and so, this guy was totally lost and he doesn't know what to do, because his company's farm, he has to quit because the government is quitting to pay the money. and the biggest issue is that our government is telling that they want to pay for everything and they want to do a lot of things. and they want to change. but the farmers want also to change. but our government is not trustable. and this is the biggest issue. rob: natasja, do you think that given the food crisis that the world is facing at the moment, because of the war in ukraine and the restrictions on grain and so forth, do you think that whilst zero emissions may well be a great objective for governments around the world, this is not the right time for any government to be trying to

bring in this kind of thing? >> it is the right time to make a change. and i am honestly a bit surprised by the arguments that the two others are telling us. because i obviously feel that they are in the illusion that the netherlands is feeding the world. the netherlands is not feeding the world, because a lot of grants also from ukraine pass, but also from brazil, soy is coming to the netherlands to feed animals. these are feedstock that can easily be used directly by humans to eat. so, producing meat and dairy in the netherlands in a very intensive way, which has been causing a lot of damage to nature, a lot of damage to water quality, and to our air quality and our health, is not the solution for feeding the world. the netherlands is being proud that we are the best producers, but the best producers in the netherlands, it maybe refers to the amount of production that we are doing per hectare or per animal. but it has caused enormous

societal and environmental problems. so if you take that into account, and the societal cost that it's taking, apart from all the subsidies that farmers need in order to make a living in the netherlands, most farmers are dependent for half their income on european subsidies to survive. so the dutch system is broken. and this is not only me as a nature conservationist saying this. this is what our government is saying. this is what many scientists are saying. so there is a change needed, especially now, with the crisis, because we need to feed the world in such a way that we use land efficiently. and to me, it's not a legitimation that you feed animals the same crops and the same pulses that can be fed directly to humans. so, i do think, especially in this situation, that we both need a rethinking of the way we are producing and the way we are consuming, and how to support

that. and nature both in the netherlands and worldwide. and biodiversity is not nice to have for nature and for wild animals. it's a need to have for us as humans. because we are dependent on nature. if there are no pollinators anymore, then we don't have crops to eat. if we don't have healthy soils, then we cannot produce food in the future. if we don't have healthy water streams, then we cannot have drinking water. so i do think that the netherlands, especially because we have the most intensive farming system in the world, we are basically a wake-up call for the rest of the world to change. rob: jeroen, i want to bring you in there, because on the back of what natasja is saying, given the fact that we are in this worldwide food crisis that is facing and given the role that the netherlands has been playing as one of the major exporters of food to the world, this would sound like it would be a good opportunity for the netherlands to make the most of that and to be able to break in.

>> i really want to break in. rob: very quickly, natasja. >> we are not the major exporter in the world. we are importing large quantities. we are exporting large quantities. rob: natasja, i'm gonna i'm gonna stop you there. i take your point. i want to go very briefly to to jeroen. we only have about a minute left. jeroen, given the fact, coming back to my original point, given the situation in the world, this would be an opportunity for the netherlands to play a role in feeding the rest of the world. would it not be? to everybody's advantage to the farmers to find a solution to this problem and quickly get back to what they do, which is producing food? just very briefly. >> that's right. yes, well, dutch agriculture can teach the world a lot of good things. but we before that, we we need to have an agriculture in holland which is big enough. when there's only 10 farms left, knowledge will be gone. and we can't teach the world how

to do it. we have major solutions for all problems in the world. that's why we are a world champion on every part of whatever problem you have, dutch agriculture is needed for that. so i think we need to have a strong national agriculture sector. rob: jeroen, we're going to leave it there. but thank you very much indeed to all three of you. i want to thank all our guests, jeroen van maanen, natasja oerlemans, and theo mandersloot. clearly, there's a lot of debate to be had here. thank you, too, for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website, aljazeera.com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is @ajinsidestory. from me, rob matheson, and the entire team here in doha, bye for now. ♪

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man: the response by the u.s. to hurricane maria was really slow and really poor. one of theajor impacts of hurricane maria is that their electrical service was disrupted in some cases for almost a year. woman: we got to work really quickly, and we started...[continues in spanish] and just, you know, reaching out to your neighbors, see what you need. "how can i help?" man: when it comes to the great resiliency, somehow to deal with catastphe, you know? it's something that we naturally engage in maybe as part of