07/07/22 07/07/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> it is clearly nowhe will of the parliamentary conservative party that there should be a new leader of that party, therefore, a new prime minister. amy: faced with about 60 resignations from within his own cabinet and party, british prime minister boris johnson has

resigned as a leader of the conservative party but will remain as prime minister until a successor is picked. many are calling him to resign as p.m. immediately. then we look at the growing economic crisis in sri lanka and across the global south as nations confront soaring energy and food costs. finally, "left internationalism in the heart of empire." that's the title of a new essay by cornell professor aziz rana. >> a long story is really one of repeated failures and blunders all the way down to the presiden yet anytime there is an internationacrisis, it is if the past isiped awa it is esstial to reverse this. that will require not just clear alternatives, but mobilizing and institution-building specifically. amy: we will speak with professor aziz rana and anthropologist, author of "the

universal enemy." all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. boris johnson has announced his resignation as leader of the united kingdom's conservative party after he lost the support of much of his own cabinet. he spoke earlier today outside 10 downing street after some 60 members of parliament quit his government in recent days to protest a series of scandals. >> it is clearly now the will of the elementary conservative party that there should ash parliamentary conservative party that there shod be a new prime minister. the process of choosing that new leader should begin now. the timetable will be announced

next week and i have appointed a cabinet to serve as i will until a new leader is in place. amy: he now faces widespread calls for his immediate resignation as prime minister, including from prominent members of his own party. after headlines, we will go to the u.k. for the latest. in illinois, a prosecutor investigating monday's massacre at a fourth of july parade in highland park says the suspect has confessed to the mass shooting, which left seven people dead and more than two dozen wounded. 21-year-old robert crimo iii faces seven counts of first-degree murder and other dozens of other charges that could bring him life in prison without parole. on wednesday, please spokesperson said crimo contemplated carrying out another mass shooting at a july 4 celebration in madison, wisconsin, after he fled the scene of the highland park shooting. >> what investigative leads have thus turned up is while he was driving and he located the

celebration occurring in the madison area, he contemplated another attack with the firearm he had in his car most of amy: police in richmond, virginia, said they thwarted a massacre at a fourth of july celebration monday after receiving cal from a tipster who overheard a conversation about plans for a mass shooting at a local theater. two suspects were arrested. >> they had two assault rifles, one handgun, 223 rounds of a munition. amy: in orlando, florida, at least 12 were injured in a stampede on july 4 after people mistook fireworks for gunfire and fled, causing a panic. philadelphia's mayor says he is worried about the security of crowds and lge-sca gatherings after two police officers were shot and injured during a fourth of july fireworks show in philadelphia. this comes as new data from the marshall project shows massive have become more common and more deadly in united states over the

past five years. in mississippi, pro-choice activists confronted anti-abortion protesters outside the jackson women's health organization wednesday on the clinic's last day of operations. the clinic is at the center of the supreme court case that struck down roe v. wade and affirmed mississippi's near-total ban on abortions. elsewhere, texas' most high-profile abortion care provider said wednesday it will move its operations to new mexico. whole women's health is closing its texas clinics after the state's supreme court allowed a century-old abortion ban to take effect. meanwhile, "rolling stone" magazine reports a prominent capitol hill evangelical leader was caught on a hot mic boasting she has prayed with sitting supreme court justices. the disclosure by anti-abortion activist peggy nienaber suggests a major conflict of interest with the court. her ministry's umbrella organization, liberty counsel, filed an amicus brief in the

landmark case dobbs v. jackson women's health, which overturned years of supreme court precedent on abortion rights. in el salvador, a woman was found guilty of homicide last week and sentenced to 50 years in prison after she lost her fetus in the ninth month of pregnancy. rights groups say that lesli lisbeth ramírez was just 19 years old when she suffered an obstetric emergency in her home in june of 2020, leading to the end of her pregnancy. this appears to be the harshest sentence ever handed down in el salvador to a woman accused of abortion, which is a crime in el salvador. -- which is a criminal offense. the united nations warned wednesday that up to 828 million people were affected by hunger last year, or about 10% of humanity. that figure represents an increase from soaring levels of hunger and malnutrition seen in 2020. the u.n. says food shortages caused by the climate crisis and the war in ukraine threaten starvation and mass migration on an unprecedented scale. in ukraine, the mayor of

mykolaiv has ordered residents to evacuate, saying no part of the black sea port city remained safe against a russian assault as fire crews ttled huge blazes sparked by the ghting. elsewhere, ukraine's second-largest city kharkiv remains under heavy fire from long-range russia artillery. on wednesday, irish prime minister micheál martin traveled to kyiv, where he met ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. martin said ireland stands ready to support ukraine's post-war reconstruction and to help hold russia accountable. >> the use of terror against and deliberate targeting of the civilian populations are war crimes. those responsible, those carryi out these actions, and those directing them will be held fully accountable and there will be no hiding places. amy: in response, former russian president dmitry medvedev warned the u.s. and its nato allies could face nuclear retaliation if they pursue an international

tribunal to investigate russian war crimes committed in ukraine. medvedev wrote on social media -- "the idea of punishing a country that has one of the largest nuclear potentials is absurd. and potentially poses a threat to the existence of humanity." russian foreign minister sergei lavrov has arrived in bali, indonesia, for a meeting of g20 foreign ministers. lavrov is expected to discuss the war in ukraine with several top diplomats, though the biden administration has ruled out any meeting with secretary of state tony blinken. the white house says president biden and vice president harris have both spoken to the wife of wnba stabrittney gner, who faceup to 10ears in russian prison after she was arrested in moscow's airport last february on having cannabis oil and a her luggage. biden's and harris' phone call to cherelle griner on wednesday came more than two weeks after

the state department botched a plan to have the couple speak by phone on their fourth wedding anniversary. it also came after brittney griner appealed directly to biden for help in a hand-written letter. white house press secretary karine jean-pierre said securing griner's release would be a top priority of the president. >> i can say the president did read the letter. i was there when he read the letter. this is something, brittney griner being held in moscow, we believe that federation -- she is been wrongfully detained in moscow at this time. this is an issue that is a priority for this president. amy: the biden administration said wednesday it will levy new sanctions against 15 individuals and entities allegedly linked to the illicit sale and shipment of iranian oil. the treasury department cited a 2018 executive order by then-president donald trump as the basis for the penalties. that's despite joe biden's

criticism of trump's maximum pressure policy against iran during the 2020 presidential campaign. this comes after days of indirect talks in qatar between iranian and u.s. diplomats failed to reach a deal to have the united states re-join the iran nuclear deal, the landmark 2015 agreement that president trump unilaterally withdrew the u.s. from in 2018. iran's foreign minister said after the failed talks his nation stands willing to scale back its nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. >> the american side should guarantee that iran will fully benefit from the deal. so far the american side has not been able to give such assurances. amy: iran says president biden could re-join the iran nuclear deal at any time via executive order. and former white house counsel pat cipollone will testify before the house select committee investigating the

january 6 attack on the capitol. cipollone is set to testify by video link behind closed doors friday. the committee subpoenaed cipollone last week after former white house aide cassidy hutchinson's testimony indicated he had firsthand knowledge of potential criminal activity in the trump white house. >> mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, keep in touch with me. we are going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. amy: the committee plans to ask pat cipollone about trump's efforts to subvert the election, a scheme to submit fake electoral ballots, trump's attempts to replace justice department leadership, including attorney general, and attempts to directly interfere with congress' activities on january 6, 2021. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman, joined by my co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: british prime minister boris johnson has announced he is resigning as head of the conservative party and will then resign as prime minister once his party elects a successor. he spoke outside 10 downing street earlier today. >> it is clearly now the wilof the parliamentary conservative party that there should be a new leader of that party and therefore a new prime minister. i have agreed with the chairman that the process of choosing that new leader should begin now and the timetable ll be announced next week and i today have appointed a cabinet to serve as i will until a new leader is in place. amy: in recent days, about 60

officials in boris johnson's government have resigned. on wednesday night, a of cabinet members went to 10 downing street to urge johnson to step down. despite the calls for him to resign as prime minister immediately, johnson has begun reassembling a new cabinet to fill the posts left vacant by the flood of is ignitions. he has served as prime minister since and has been embroiled in 2019 numerous scandals. this week's resignations came as johnson faces criticism for promoting a member of the conservative party who was accused of groping two men. on tuesday, a downing street spokesperson admitted johnson had been briefed in 2019 about the sexual abuse allegations but claimed that he had forgotten about the complaints. one of the first two cabinet ministers to resign was health secretary sajid javid.

he spoke yesterday about why he stepped down. >> i continued to get the benefit of the doubt. and this week again, we have reason to question the truth and integrity of what we have all been told. at some point, we have to conclude that enough is enough. i believe that point is now. i have concluded and i believe that is not going to change, and that means there is for those of us in a position who have responsibility to make that change. amy: we are joined now by priya gopal, english professor at u. of cambridge and author of "insurgent empire: anticolonial resistance & british dissent." professor, it is great to have you back. we just heard the speech of the prime minister before we went to air, especially for a non-british audience, if you can explain what has led to this

moment and what does it mean that while he resigned as head of the conservative party, he is still hanging on to the prime ministers ship. so many within his own party are demanding he resign immediately. >> as i suggested on your show last time, and last time was not a very long time ago, this was more or less inevitable. he had just survived at that time i no-coidence vote. i suggested then he was very damaged. what we see now is the inevitable has happened. johnson is clinging to power, wanting to stay on to overlook and somehow stay in 10 downing street. [indiscernible] combined with an ongoing tragedy for ordinary people in britain. johnson's last few months have

been extraordinarily complicated but those reflect the wider three years or so in power which have been disastrous for ordinary people. he has attempted in trump-like way to say he would not leave, that they would have to wash their hands in blood if they wanted him to leave. and there are people who expect him to continue to produce drama. but what has led to this moment is that a very damaged force johnson was not able to survive more allegations about things that he knew and had not done anything aut. it became clear this was one live too far, that people even in his party had considered keeping him in power, new he was prone to lying, new about his incompetence, knew about the

chaos, they were complicit until this week they decided it was not in their interest to continue to be complicit. nermeen: what do you think is likely to happen now? who is the front runner, if there is one, to replace him? i just heard on the bbc this morning that one person who is considering running, though his prospects appeared dim, is conservative mp steve baker. who are the others? >> it is not entirely clear who will be in the running. braverman, the attorney general has also said she intends to throw her hat in the ring. these are, as you suggested, outliers. we don't know who amongst the rope prospects will be under the running. i think one can assume that some of the names that have been bandied around, suggest the foreign secretary might be in

the running who johnson fired last night. he might be in the running. possibly, the current chancellor who was just appointed chancellor. there are various names being bandied around. we don't know who the front runner will be, but i think one thing we do know, whoever takes over, on the one hand, have to come across as more stable and capable than johnson. it on the other hand, quite a series ideologue and conservative ideologue. johnson is an opportunist. he is somebody who really thinks about -- takes whatever position is convenient in the short term. whoever replaces him, there's a very good chance of there being a brexiteering ideologue with far right views about policy and the direction of government. and this does not look good in

the immediate and near-term for the british people. nermeen: what about in the event a general election is called? do you see any likelihood of a labor government, more progressive government coming to power in the wake of the obvious disasters of boris johnson's administration? >> i don't think those are by any means clear-cut. it is not clear to me and others i know that if there were to be a general election now ,labour would win. they have not provided a clear option for people to vote for. the current labor leader, that he would continue brexit in place, that he would in fact ep a hard brexit in place. we don't know what kind of alternatives the labour party

proposes in terms of the huge challenges in front of britain right now. labor shortages, inflation, widespread hunger. many institutions in disarray, high inflation. these are all problems that are immediate. we don't as of now have a clear plan as to what labor will be setting out to address this. i would by no means be optimistic that if there were a general election, that the tories would lose. they will probably lose the high-margin they had, but if they're able to convince people that the problem with johnson and that they can now provide an alternative without johnson, they may well come back. the truth is, the problem is not just with johnson. the tory project is a very destructive project that has been incredibly horrible to britain through a hard brexit and there are problems yet to come. it is by no means clear whoever

comes back or comes after johnson leaves, going to be providing anything progressive or britain. amy: i want to go back to boris johnson speech just before we went to broadst. >> the reason i have fought so hard in the last f days to continue to deliver that mandate in person was not just because i wanted to do so, but because i felt it was my job, my duty, my obligation to you to continue to do what we promised in 2019. of course, i am immensely proud of that achievement of this government from getting brexit done, reclaiming the power for this country to make its own laws in parliament, getting us all to the pandemic, delivering the fastest vaccine rollout in europe of the fastest exit from

lockdown, and in the last few months, leading the west in standing up to putin's aggression in ukraine. amy: if you can assess as we wrap up, professor, what he has done from brexit to ukraine and also what this means for ireland? >> he has been tried to ukraine-wash himself in the last few chaotic months suggesting he is leading the west in its response, which is clearly not exactly the case. probably true the vaccine low -- rollout was very well done but everything else raises a lot of questions. relations with the continent with europe are at an historic low and britain is in a position of breaking through -- northern

ireland protocol is in trouble and europe has lost faith in britain's ability to hold up its end of the bargain. what does it mean to get brexit done? a hard brexit, we're just starting to see the consequences, economic currents consequences have been disastrous. labor shortages, food shortages, as well as the high cost of living. you want brexit done, what are the consequences so far for the ordinary people of britain? amy: professor, thank you for being with us, english professor at university of cambridge and author of "insurgent empire: anticolonial resistance & british dissent." next up, we look at the growing economic crisis in sri lanka and across the global south as nations confront soaring energy and food costs. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "should i stay or should i go" by the clash. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as we go now to the island nation of sri lanka, where protests are escalating amid a growing economic crisis and gas shortage faced by some 22 million people, many forced to wait forays and nits in long lines for fuel. >> when the patrol problem came up, i tried use whatsapp to see whe it was available but that was not article. first it was t or three hours then it was 4, 6, and up to eight hours. about three weeks ago, i was in a petrol queue for days. amy: police fired tear gas and water cannons at hundreds of demonstrators near sri lanka's parliament wednesday as they called for president gotabaya

rajapaksa to step down. sri lanka's government has forced the country's schools stay closed for another week because there is not enough gas for students and teachers to travel to school. authorities also announced plans to cut electricity by up to three hours a day because the country does not have enough fuel. sri lanka's president said wednesday on twitter he'd reached out to russian president vladimir putin and "requested an offer of credit support to import fuel." meanwhile, sri lanka is also facing a dire shortage of food and medicine, and doctors are saying the country's entire health system could collapse. on tuesday, sri lanka announced it will stop printing money as inflation is expected to reach a record 60% this year. for more, we go to the sri lankan capital colombo to speak with ahilan kadirgam, political economist and senior lecturer at the university of jaffna. his recent op-ed forhe daily mirror is headlined "when they can't govern, they must go home."

welcome back to democracy now! can you start off by explaining the extent of the issue and the significance of sri lanka saying it is turning to russia for support to get fuel? >> thank you for having me, amy. the situation from week to week has been deteriorating. ov the last six months, sri nka was going to a major downturn but the last three months, you've had a new prime minister in power since may 11, and even in those few months, as sri lanka has been preparing to go for an imf aeement, a team in sri lanka for two weeks. the last two weeks, secretary of yes treasurynd secretary of state from the united states were here visiting, very high officials from india were here, but no deal was made. now sri lanka is in very dire

situation. even the wld bank anthe i exct sri lka's economy to shrink by negative gdp growth, probably over 10% this year. [inaudible] fishermen cannot go to the sea becae they do not have kerosene oil. sectors have come grinding to a halt because of fuel shortages. the people are blaming president rajapaksa and the prime minister for the continued economic crisis that they are facing. in that context, likely to be very powerful wave of protests starting this saturday. he saw that two months ago when the president's brother resigned as prime minister.

the day after tomorrow, very massive protest falling for it -- calling for the resignation of the president and prime minister and in the context of this wave the president is desperately asking various actors, including president putin of russia, to provide oil. nermeen: could you talk about how the government has so far responded to these protests and also a piece that you wrote earlier this week headlined "when they can't govern, they must go home." in which you point out that the ideology of our ruling class, and lake sri lanka's ruling class, for decades, has been one of solving all our problems from food security to people's livelihoods by importing. what does that have to do with the scale of the crisis right now, the fact that sri lanka was

so heavily dependent on imports? >> sri lanka was the first country in south asia to liberalize its economy way back in 1977. this was well before the election of president reagan and prime minister margaret thatcher. sri lanka was put on the new liberal path with policies of the imf and the world bank. some of the things we did -- [inaudible] including in agriculture, which meant became dependent for food in terms of imports. a lot of food could have been produced here but there is no food, whether it is vegetables -- all of the started to be imported. started an economy that very much even more dependent on the external sector. and that has been further

accelerated after the long civil war in sri lanka which ended in 2009 that had borrowing in the international financial markets, what are called sovereign bonds. this dependency and this idea they can import our way out through debt has continued to this day. i would like even now over the last four months, even the government thinks the solution to all our problems is to go for an imf solution. i am of agreement. as if the imf can come into sri lanka and completely restructure the economy and make everything fine. in other words, ere is no discussion on the part of the government on how we as sri lankans are going to come out of this crisis. we are going to address the great inequalities of this country. but instead, they been implementing austerity measures over the last 3, 4 months which have made the burden on the

people that much more harsher. at the core of this is the class question in terms of who has benefited from these imports and global finance and who is asked to pay for it now as the cost of living, you take the price of bread, it has tripled over the last six months. the incomes and livelihoods of working people have declined increasingly disrupted. and -- in that context, people start protesting, that the police have become increasingly aggressive. arresting proteste. students have been on it alida, it remains to be seen what would happen on saturday when another big wave of protests are to be

launched in sri lanka throughout the country and particularly in colombo, pressuring the president and prime minister to resign. what the military and police wi do in that context. the demand now is for both of them to resign and for an interim government to be formed to be able to stabilize the country economically and politically. and also to bring about people's counsel with representatives of the people, of the protesters, professionals, organizations to be able to stimulates the country so we can have elections and move forward. amy: ahilan kadirgamar, thank you for being with us, political economist and senior lecturer at the university of jaffna. right now in colombo. we will link to your piece in the daily mirror "when they can't govern, they must go home." as we turn to put this in a broader context in the global south, admits the protests in

sri lanka, there have also been widespread demonstrations in ghana, peru, door, and other counies or high s prices. for more on the impact of rising fuel prices on countries in the global south where the impacts have been especially severe amid the war in ukraine and the covid-19 pandemic, we are joined by antoine halff, former chief oil analyst at the international energy agency and now an adjunct senior research scholar at the center on global energy policy at columbia university. welcome to democracy now! if you can compare what is happening to the rest of the global south. >> sri lanka has its own problems linked to the nature of its economy [indiscernible]

here part of a broader situation which is increase in energy prices over the last few months most of whichas perhaps accelerated since the invasion of ukraine. sri lanka is entirely dependent on its oil supply on imports, as are other countries in south asia, bangladesh, pakistan, india, to various degrees. has less money to pay for higher costs, higher price of energy. hence the shortage. this is not a unique situation. we see those countries you have mentioned having to forecast more for energy supplies but particularly acute in sri lanka particularly because they're 100% dependent on oil imports and other underlying issues. nermeen: just to get a sense of

the scale of the increase of these prices, international prices have reportedly risen five times since last year while natural gas prices have gone up 10 times more than what they were last year. if you could respond -- welcome explain what you think might reduce the prices. there are those that say a global recession that will bring the prices of fuel down. and if that is not to occur, if you'll prices are not to go down, how are these countries who are so dependent on fuel and gas imports supposed to cope? >> well, what is unique about the situation is complete energy crisis as opposed to earlier, major oil prices in the 10's,

1973, more recent events, are more foced on the oil markets. today we have concerns about oil and gas, really across the board. but with differences depending on which fuel you look at. i knew oil -- in oil, building over the past figures because we had a shortfall of investment capacity that has lasted -- started around the collapse of 2014 and then the second collapse at the time of the first wave of covid that has really discouraged investments. the transition to cleaner energy makes -- the energy transition has also discouraged investment in the upstream. we have not had the kind of reinvestment that you would normally have. at the same time, covid coming

back with a vengeance. there is an imbalance or there was an imbalance and we had a very steady tightening of our supply demand balance is over the past year and a big drop in global inventories throughout 2021. ironically, since the start of the invasion of ukraine, inventories on the global stage has started to bounce back and now higher than they were before february 24. partly because the sanctions against russia are not really raining and russian supplies. supplies are not going where they used to go, europe in particular, the u.s. to some extent, they're going where to asia but they have not really been reduced dramatically, at least not yet. but they are going elsewhere. more recently, we are seeing a little bit of a drop in inventories again because one factor that had rebuilt inventories was china and the

locked out of shanghai. as shanghai comes out of confinement, demand increases. we hav structural and cyclical crisis in the oil market, which is not going to be resolved anytime soon. it is not going to get worse. many forecasters say they need $200, threader dollars available oil. that is not going to go so high. but for extended period between $90 and $130 a barrel. if you turn to natural gas, completely different story because gas is not at all the spectacle of oil. when gas exports from russia to europe go town, they cannot easily be redirected elsewhere. europe cannot easily replace those imports with other supplies, so there is a dramatic

tightening of gas supply which is going to get a lot worse over the next few months and for which there is no quick solution. butt is not affecting sri lanka per se. they are not an importer of natural gas. they had announced recently to shift some of its electricity generation from coal to gas to be cleaner. those plans are called into question. it might be on hold. but it is not really keeping -- hitting the sri lankan economy directly. nermeen: you just said there is this distinction between natural gas and oil. thprice of oil, irrespective of where one imports from, whether russia, u.s., or saudi arabia, the price of oil is set on the global market. so could you explain how that impacts the

ways in which countries can import oil even as prices vary and also whether that is true of natural gas? >> oil is a global commodity. it is easy to transport. that is why it has been so successful as fuel. one of the reasons. oil gets traded internationally. all countries import and export oil, almost all of them. it is really a global market with the price set internationally on the planet market. -- 20 to transport. historically, transported only by pipeline over the last decade. sharp increase in the share of liquefied natural gas in the gas market. transported in liquid form on shipwhich is much more sensible and then regassified at

the arrival point. gas is still much more fragmented market. therefore we see more differentiated markets. asian market, european market, american market with different prices. the prices have tended to converge as the share of energy has increased, but still differentiated. another factor is the refining capacity. any refineries have closed down in the last few years, and that has accelerated with covid. we now have a world that is short of refining capacity except for china, which has a lot of refining capacity, sitting on large inventories. but at the moment, not really choosing to have -- help the international market and export the products it is not consuming at home. amy: we want to thank you for being with us, antoine halff,

adjunct senior research scholar at the center on global energy policy at columbia university sticking to us from paris, france. next up, we go to aziz rana who wrote a major piece in dissent magazine called "left internationalism in the heart of empire." we will speak with aziz rana and with, who responds. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "ceylonkaar" by arivey and the ambassah band. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we end today's show looking at "left internationalism in the heart of empire." that is the title of nasa in dissent magazine by aziz rana, law professor at cornell university and author of the book "the two faces of american freedom." "at present, the possible futures that lay before us appear strikingly dystopian. either we languish in an old broken americana or we slide into a new multi polar order dictated by competing capitalist authoritarianism's.

without a strong and coherent left alternative, finding a global pathway better than these options will only be that much harder." dissent has also published responses to professor rana's essays including by the anthropologist darryl li, professor at university of chicago, author of "the universal enemy: jihad, empire, and the challenge of solidarity." darryl li and aziz rana join us now. professor rana, lay out your argument in this major piece that you have written for dissent that has gotten so much response. >> thank you for having me on the show. it is great to be here. the argument, is that if you just think of the long history of the natiol secured establishment policies throughout the entire post-cold war period, it is one of repeated failure. these are terrible words of choice in the middle east, along

with instructive neoliberal policies -- destructive neoliberal policies that are promoted mass economic commiseration along large sectors of the world. yet every time there is a new international crisis, it is as if that passage is wiped clean and instead left critics of the national security establishment to find themselves on the defensive. i try to work through why that is the case in the argument, is it has to do with certain tendencies in the way which left voices articulate position to the national security framework. it also has to do with the fact the left needs clear alternatives to the hardest questions. and that all of that requires thinking about foreign policy in a way that is different than we traditionally do. we tend to think of the domestic realm as a site for mobilization, movement building, our building.

we think of foreign policy about expertise. that has to be broken. the strongest periods a sustained left international foreign policy were times in which you had really powerful transnational movements. pes of labor and anticolonialism that link together unions at home and abroad. and we need something similar. we need to have strong transnational institutions built around mobilization that create in stitch together common vision. that means pressing for policies that you might not oftentimes think of is about power building. for instance, opposition for containment of international corporate property rights of a strengthening global labor rights. these are good for workers, but they are also a way of reviving perhaps the classic 20th century institution of the transnational left, which was global labor.

needs to be structures at home to have conversations across borders about how to build an alternative form. nermeen: darryl li, could we get your response? you are one of the respondents to aziz and the special which is now out. one of the points you make in your response is talking about the american left response to the crisis that ensued following the popular uprising in syria in 2011. you write, "while online leftist loudly tory tethered to shreds, washington backed by moscow partly arrived whereby each side could bomb enemies while at work together to ensure their jets did not collide. how do you interpret that response in 2011, and for many years after that, to what is

happening now with respect to the left response to the russian invasion of ukraine? >> thank you for having me. i think the point i was trying to make, sort of is the unfortunate mirror of the dilemma that aziz is out which is in a series of crises at the end of the cold war were humanitarian intervention, or humanitarian invasion, has been on the cards. the people who identified with the left in the west in the united states are constantly again and again been pushed into a corner or boxed in. i think it is important to recognize that is a strucral dilemm inny situati talking about humanitarian invasion, we are talking about the situation of some kind of great power competition. because it was a situation where the west had hegemony, we would not be talking about

humanitarian invasion in the first place. if it is a situation where a nonwestern -- nonwestern great powers calling the shots, then the west does not have a low cost military option to begin with. places like yugoslavia in syria, these are situations where yes the united states engaged in axis imperiasm and violence but also not the only gnificant afr on the ground. that is the persistent structural dilemma the left has really struggled with and just not had a clear answer to over the past few decades. nermeen: the moment in the case of ukraine, at least initially, there was one clear aggressor, though now the equation has completely changed with the influx of massive amounts of military aid and defensive military equipment. can you speak specifically about that and how that complicas or should complicate or may complicate the u.s. left response? >> absolutely. just aore intense version of a

dilemma. clearly, have a war of aggression brussia but there is another important factor in the ovall discussion, and what -- the thing that has struck me about this conversation with folks on the left in the west is it is largely kind of rested on denunciation of hypocrisy and double standards by the west, talking about why the u.s. is paying attention to ukraine and not other places or decrying th racist treatment and abuse of refugees of african origin in the area. i think calling out double standards is absolutely necessary and just and correct, but it needs to be the start of the conversation. too often, it is where the analysis ends. i think that is a symptom of the kind of disempowerment that aziz is talking about, where the left in the west has a clearer since what stands against and not what

it stands for in these types of situations. amy: professor aziz rana, if you could respond to professor li and talk about what a general -- genuine left global international would look like. you talk about the strengthening of labor rights around the world and formulating a critique of undoing neoliberalism central to forming such a global movement. >> first, i agree pretty entirely with what darryl was saying. ukraine in a way as a microcosm of this problem, which is there are two tendencies you see in the u.s. you have one tendency which in the space of a clear agenda from the u.s. national security state that puts together a set of policies that are really a conveyor belt of policies that snap into place regardless of what the crisis is, we see this in ukraine, that combine aggressive sanctions, i's

confrontation. one position is to suggest to c what the state is doing. you have thee social democraticde elements more or less accepting whatever it is the biden administration is doing -- excepting an old separation between domestiand foreign wherefore and is not what organize around except your actual military boots on the ground. one position i think is a kind of silence that is a huge problem but the other position is to avoid recognizing the incipient forms of really authoritarianism we are seeing in the breakdown of american rise of the multipolar order. refusing to call out the kinds of imperialism and authoritarianism that does not necessarily come out of the u.s.

it is really important in this moment have a politics that as a colleague summed up has noted, articulates the principle of anti-imperialism and anti-authoritarianism together. what i would say in the context of ukraine is that this is an act of imperial aggression violation of any principles of self-determination and so it requires strong support for defensive military assistance of a country that is facing an imimperial invader. but the issue with the american approach is that that has been combined with a huge strategic effort to weaken an adversary and so it has been wrapped up in this aggressive sanctions and militarized confrontational policy that has really -- effect for the future as well as humanitarian conditions in ukraine around the world. rather accepting an either/or

you can sign up for everything the u.s. does or just support nonintervention, i think it requires a disaggregated approach that emphasizes the importance, yes, of genuinely defensive military assistance but tied to a focus on de-escalation, diplomatic negotiations that puts front and center local concerns but also humanitarian suffering, and that is tied to a global approach that looks at the humanitarian effects worldwide. we just heard about sri lanka. i think it is a significant flaw of the american conversation effect as the u.n. secretary-general says, 1.7 billion people find themselves facing procured in the context of local food, energy, and financial crises. that has not been part of the response. clearly money, if there is money for weapons to flood europe, there certainly money to address some of these harms that are

taking place far away from ukraine and russia. that should be part of the conversation that we have. but that requires resisting the either/or framework being presented. as far as a global agenda, there are lots of elements to what i think would be an important left foreign policy, confronting climate change, dealing with issues of economic redistribution, creating somethingike a genuine approach to the global economy. but i think the first and most important thing is creating the transnational infrastructure for left forces across the world to be able to speak to each other. whenever there is a new crisis, and this is the last point i will make, whenever there is a new crisis, it is easy for abaddon to talk to -- for biden to talk to boris johnson or zelenskyy because of the national securing frameworks.

at the left is basically contained of the last 50 years within its borders. people like me, footloose academics that have no real connection to movements or to global institutions. that has to be reversed. you have to be able to build frameworks in which you have left forces across the world in conversation to build up alternative approaches. to me that puts a premium on the kinds of reforms that we might think of as non-reformist reforms that strengthen the power of transnational left institutions. this has to do with a position of the global labor movement and also the position of immigrants and migrant rights. so a strong commitment to decriminalizing the border, which is a way of strengthening working-class actors both within the u.s. and across the border, and also has to do with significant changes to the nature of our security budget.

cutbacks in the security budget which then mobilizes forces run economic needs and show how economic needs like pressing for a public commitment to health, education, housing, etc., directly tied to the actions of the national security state and have implications for how american corporations and military elites operate abroad. nermeen: just 30's aziz is saying because the left position determined in part by where you are in the world. >> absolutely. solidarity is important. also true that solidarity is extremely messy. for people on the left in the west, showing solidarity with people and other parts of the world can be more challenging or less challenging, especially if we are talking about pple whose primary oppressors, primary concern are geostrategic

rivals to t u.s. till and that is all the more reason why it is important to have robust institutions to allow these conversations to happen in the way aziz was pointing out. amy: part two posted online at democracynow.org. darryl li and aziz rana. [captioning made possible by democracy now!] ñcñcñcñcooooooo7ú oñoñoñoñoñoñoñ

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