grass fire and spread quickly due to strong winds. ♪ tom for a quick check of the headlines. there has been low turnout as tunisians vote on a referendum for a new constitution. an exit pull predicts the referendum will pass. opposition parties boycotted the vote. the president says he wants to reign in a corrupt political elite. pope francis has apologized to canada's indigenous people for what he described as the people inflicted in residential schools

run by the catholic church. more than 150,000 indigenous children were sent to the schools. many suffered physical, mental, and sexual abuse. >> i'm here because the first step of my pilgrimage among you is that of again asking forgiveness, of telling you once more that i am deeply sorry, sorry for the ways in which regrettably many christians supported the colonizing mentality of the powers that oppressed of the indigenous peoples. i am sorry. i ask for forgiveness, for particular in the ways in which -- not least through their indifference in projects of cultural destruction and forced assimilation, promoted by the governments of that time which culminated in a system of residential schools. >> israeli troops have rated the palestinian village in the occupied west bank. they demolished the homes of two palestinians were charged of

killing a guard in april. since the beginning of this year israeli forces have demolished several palestinian homes. ukraine says it is aiming to export is first shipment of green this week since the russian invasion. they struck a deal last week to allow the shipments. though a russian missile strike after that threw the deal into doubt. gazprom is slashing deliveries to europe wednesday. they are shutting down a turbine to carry out maintenance on the pipeline. suppliers will be 20% of what they normally are. germany says there is no technical problem. some fear gas supplies can be cut altogether as retaliation for sanctions on russia. those are the headlines. the news continues here after inside story. thanks for watching. stay tuned. bye for now. ♪

>> hungary's prime minister viktor orban says shincheonji on russia has failed, but ukraine insists it can when the war as its forces appear to be making some gains in the east. will the eu maintain its tough stance and risk winter gap shortages? this is "inside story." ♪ >> hello. welcome to the program. hungary's prime minister says sanctions against russia are not working. viktor orban says a new strategy is needed, one that focuses on peace talks and negotiations.

in a speech in romania, orban reiterated his country will stay out of the war in neighboring ukraine. hungary is economy relies heavily on russian gas and the government in budapest does not want to support embargoes on russian energy imports. orban says since russia wants security guarantees, talks should be held between washington and moscow, nokia. -- not kyiv. >> a new strategy is needed which would focus on not winning the war but instead on peace talks and drafting a good peace proposal. the european union's task now is not to stand on the side of the russians or ukrainians, but to stand between russia and ukraine. this should be the essence of a new strategy. this is how the situation is. we are sitting in a car with no tires. ukraine will never win the war against russia with american

personnel training and weapons, because the russian army has asymmetrical dominance. the second fact is that sanctions are not weakening moscow. the third is europe is in trouble, economic trouble but politically too, and -- only since the war, -- the problem is everywhere in europe it is certain there will be a recession, and this will cause political instability. i have to say we would have been more lucky if the u.s. president would have been donald trump and we have managed to convince angela merkel not to leave. then the war would have never started. but we didn't have luck, so we are in this war. we have to reach a new agreement with the russians. a new agreement has to be reached between hungry anti-chinese and with the u.s. it will be easier with republicans than the current democrats. >> despite severe rounds of

sanctions, russia's economy is still standing. moscow continues to receive lien's in -- to receive billions in revenue. a kremlin decree in march required all gas payments from what it called unfriendly countries to be made in the national currency. but some countries are voluntarily paying for russian bank accounts, saying the payments are in line with eu sanctions. let's bring in our guests. in the unit we have roger helton, defense follow and geopolitical think tank. in lviv with michael, a senior fellow at the atlantic council. and in oxford, samuel, an associate fellow at the royal united services institute. a warm welcome to you all. roger, will europe be able to

maintain unity on ukraine as autumn and winter approaches? >> good evening, and thank you so much for having me. before we get started, as you heard in the introduction, viktor orban made a very spirited speech. before we go any further i want to make the statement that i that humanly disagree with this -- that i the he mentally -- the european union is an institution based on values and morals and it is -- when he comes to the european union holding up, you have had these five governments, but it could have fallen earlier and it took six months for this to happen.

moving forward it needs to be adjusted. >> do they see in ukraine what orban is saying is perhaps a commonly held view or do they worry it will become commonly held, or do they think orban is speaking on his own? >> a big theory here is europe will become divided an interest in the war will wane. and as pressure decreases on governments in europe and elsewhere, that they will succumb to -- it's very important for western government to keep together when it comes to policy towards ukraine. and i have to say as well that, as a canadian, it is very important that countries like my own stick to the sanctions they committed to a. i was very disappointed and disillusioned when prime minister tried out water down his own sanctions.

viktor orban is one of the most dangerous politicians on the planet. he gave some recessed -- some racist speeches, he is an ally of russian. he is playing the russian playbook and we cannot believe much of what he says. >> do you think russia can maintain unity over ukraine when winter approaches? >> you can look at the question at several angles. certainly european countries are going to continue to supply arms to ukraine. there are some disagreements with hungary not wanting to be involved in the war. with the vast majority are willing to send artillery and other equipment. in terms of arming ukraine there will be unity. where it will be complicated is in the next aid package. there was a remarkable coalescence of european

countries on individual sanctions, sanctions of russian entities. but i think that unity might start to fray when it comes to natural gas. even big players like germany might balk. we are seeing hungary expand purchases of natural gas. i think that will be the area. there will also be divisions not this between member states but within countries. between far left and far right parties in the government in power. i think military support will likely stay. >> despite his more outrageous statements, viktor orban does have challenges that are not unique in european countries. sanctions have not particularly worked. russia has tripled the amount of money it is earning. does there have to be another look at how we treat russia in this conflict? >> if i could respond very

quickly, i think for all of our viewers, it is very important to recognize that since the beginning of july the czech republic, for all of our viewers who don't know, they are part of the group which includes hungry, slovakia, poland. it has been very clear from the new government that they are going to de-prioritize the platform as a mechanism to coordinate. and hungary has been -- moving forward, as i said earlier i think the eu needs to address what is going on now could it goes without saying that when it comes to energy, different areas will be more vulnerable to others. in slovakia they have neither issue. but at the same time there are other sources of energy coming from the south.

you have had a bit of an issue with the eu. portugal and poland might not distribute energy equally. i am not saying there is a quick fix but there is a solution to be had on the political level and trying to figure out how to maximize the gas europe has access to without putting too much money in the coffers of russia. >> there are over 5 million ukrainian refugees across europe now. is there a concern that the welcome for them is waning? >> absolutely. i just finished a tour of europe and even and poland which has been one of the strongest supporters of ukraine, this coming september, 700,000 ukrainian schoolchildren who will be admitted into public schools. so that is a huge burden on them. people are -- a lot of refugees

are having problems funding accommodations. it is not easy. but going back to the original point, i think european governments have to get citizens ready, that they have to accept short-term pain for long-term gain. the only thing mr. putin understands his force. if european countries begin to buckle when it comes to supplying arms to ukraine or sanctions, he will go further and further into europe. there can be no divides when it comes to standing up to mr. putin. >> europeans are not used to having to put up with short-term pain. the eu commission on those gas shortages, the commission wants huge powers to mandate gas rationing. any european countries already resisting it. do you think the eu will manage to get that policy through? >> that will be a complicated measure. we are seeing some nationstates

mobilizing the notion of gas rationing. the netherlands was also a warning about that at the same time. the idea that this might be inevitable has been normalized by existing governments. it risks emboldening the far right elements in those countries. the five-star movement. i think those concerns about and building populists might prevent many european countries from going through on it and there will be others like hungary and slovakia which could drag their feet and veto something. >> is that going to work, this attempt by the commission to give itself enormous powers to mandate gas rationing? >> if there is one thing i think we have all learned it is not to

under evaluate the grit, creativity, and policy grit of urszula von der leyen. this is going to be a tough decision but on the political level a lot of people thought the massive bailouts that happened earlier, that would not happen and there was talk -- i wholeheartedly believe that a deal will be had. will there be tough pills to swallow? absolutely. especially now. there is no doubt the energy sector is hurting. but when there is a will there is a way. i think there will be a lot of momentum to get this over the finish line. >> when you say where there is a will there is a way, there is resistance to this. there is a view that this is to

save germany and the greeks might be upset about that, considering their request for fiscal leniency years ago during the financial crisis. does that view have currency? >> i think at the moment it makes great clickbait but at the end of the day there are other mechanisms within the european union to get the ball moving forward. i think long-term we are still in early days of this conversation. winter season -- it is not to be underestimated. i think their energy minister said if we have to, we will burn everything to stay alive. we are very early days on this and moving forward we will see what happens. >> are there further sanctions tools that the europeans and

americans and north atlantic countries can use against russia that have not been employed that they should be considering? >> i think so. there are more banks that can be sanctioned. the strategy of using sanctions to cause harm or pain to the russian people open babel rise up against -- i think we have to get to a point, and i know the americans have been working on this, is to get a slow starters on board. i am talking about some gulf countries. uae, countries like that. as long as the oligarchs or the people in mr. putin's circle can hide their wealth or visit countries like the uae were countries in asia, for example, they will not feel the brunt of the sanctions. i said this before, that if these oligarchs, these people in

mr. putin's circle want to go anywhere on vacation, they only have two options. north korea, or illegally named islands in the south china sea by china. these sanctions take a lot of work. they will not be employed overnight. even with turkey, which by the way is trying to play mediator between ukraine and russia, they, too are very reliant on russian tourism. so it is very difficult for them to go all the way and put in the really tough sanctions. >> has russia had any diplomatic success in limiting europe's attempt to isolate russia? sergei lavrov is doing a tour of africa at the moment after reaching a grain deal in the middle east. >> i think russia may not necessarily have been able to leverage its relationship with

populace parties. that is not surprising because they have always s -- overestimated their ability to create fractures in european societies. i distinctly remember speaking to russian academics a year after the annexation of crimea and they were telling me they were shocked germany and many european sanctions -- european countries sanctioned russia. but outside of europe, russians are doing quite a good job at creating and moving towards a post-western foreign policy. certainly china is back in so many of their narratives, a so-called peaceful solution that effectively means ukraine ceding sovereignty to russia. most of the middle eastern countries with the exception of turkey and sometimes israel have been accommodating of russia's positions. and russia is strengthening ties

right now in africa with key countries like congo, egypt, ethiopia. and in latin america too. russia's post policy has been much more successful than some may have thought. and their narratives too. the west is not countering them effectively. >> is europe having to face up to the fact it is operating a war economy? >> sorry, if i can respond to sam. i'm not convinced so wholeheartedly of the success of russian outreach. it speaks massive volumes in two recent sightings of putin. in iran, the sheer fact he was the one having to wafer president erdogan, where he is

the one who always had to wait. second, is this really the main ally russia is so proud to trump up, when kyiv can basically call up anyone in washington or any g-7 countries? also, when it comes to china, i really think it is a veneer when the economy is hurting, and a lot of chinese companies haven't stepped in as much as people thought, due to fear of sanctions given the fragile state of the chinese economy. there are protests going on right now in china. >> i will carry on with this theme. even if you are not convinced by russia's diplomatic successes outside of europe, putin is not going anywhere. sanctions have not destabilized him, are not threatening his removal from power. he might be playing a long game. he could be in there for a long

time. he is not going to pull out of ukraine. >> even if he is playing a long game, and i don't agree with the position that the economy is ok, they are cherry picking stats. there's a sugar run or other issues that are now coming out, without the proper technology for airbags. it is very disconcerting and we -- what are we supposed to do with this? there will be a massive hole in the budget moving forward as confirmed by the finance minister. they are you losing a huge amount of the federal reserve's. on the economic level i think things are much worse. when it comes to the eu, yes, the system is set up that while it is not great and presume of we the evidence suggests we are going to go into recession and the cost of living is high, this is the reality we have to live in and europe has gone through

other big crises before. >> is putin playing the long game? is he going to make do with the donbass, or is that a face-saving option? he controls the state media, so there is no opposition there to what he's doing. what is the ukrainian view of how this is going to play out? >> he is definitely playing the long game. let's not forget this war started in 2014, not february this year. in that time, russia has been inoculated against sanctions. for example with a tighter alliance with china. the beauty of being a dictator of course if you don't have to face the electorate on a level playing field. you can manipulate elections and get reelected. and like president xi, try and stay in power for life.

but i do think the chinese, the main ally of russia at the moment, they are much more pragmatic. and when they see it is not to their benefit that pressure is warring with ukraine, and also causing trouble elsewhere in the neighborhood, that they will pull further away. then i think this is the wildcard. this is where russia will be forced to reevaluate its strategy and ukraine. but yes, the ukrainians need desperately much more weaponry. the main thing they need right now, because no area in ukraine can be considered safe, is they need the ability to close their skies to those long-range russian missiles which can be shot from inside russia 1000 miles away. >> ok. so, with the weapons that made is applying to -- are they able to keep firing at

current levels? >> how long can russia sustain itself? there are british intelligence reports predicting that russia would burn through weaponry stocks. that is why it was relying on a lot more poor quality weaponry. but i think that is less because they are running out of stock and they are trying to minimize costs and a don't care about loss of lives. russia can continue fighting this war for one to two years at least. and also, pressure will be fortifying its defensive positions, even in places like southern ukraine. so it will potentially minimize casualties. even if it is losing hundreds of people a day right now and is burning through a lot of weapons stocks, we should not underestimate russia's long-term ability to keep the war going. you are still seeing anecdotal reports of a counteroffensive that russia can still outgun

ukrainian military eight to one. >> has russia got the resources to keep fighting at these current levels? and if so, is the approach europe is taking, europe should maintain the path that is on? >> i seem to be in that position right now where i don't seem to be agreeing with anything. you said russia was running out of steam. before we move onto the european strategy, their good points -- don't get me wrong, this will be quite a difficult take. just yesterday you had the american ambassador to slovakia to said the united states' support for ukraine will go on as long as it is needed. that sets the tone for the rest of the countries who will continue giving ammunition. one thing not reported enough is

while they still have military superiority, there are other long-range weapon systems u.s. could be providing that are better that would change the battlefield even more drastically. this is not the end-all be-all. not to mention a massive security training program going on in the u.k. just today you had other issues. finally, the eu will have to amend the strategy a little bit. we saw an example of that with a grain deal. part of the incentive for russia was to get fertilizer to market. moving forward, the eu will have to adapt. >> for the moment we are out of time, but thank you to our guests. and thank you, too, for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting aljazeera.com. for more debate, go to our facebook page,

facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can also join the conversation on twitter. from me and the entire team, bye for now. ♪

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man: i remember years back talking to my dad and saying, "at some point in my career, i'd love to do a deli." and i remember him looking at me in a surprised way like, "really? why? you've spent all this time in fine dining and traveled the world and trained yourself. why the ... do you want to do a deli? [bell dings] i think i was ultimately drawn to the deli because spending so much time in delis as a kid, it was sort of attached to my soul a little bit. it's so part and parcel of my culture and my growing up and the jewish story