09/01/22 /01/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now!w! >> more democracy, then we will go to bring perestroika. i make a does for the words of former soviet leader mikhail gorbachev in 1987, four years

later, the soviet union would dissolve. today we look at the life and legacy ofg, who died tuesday at the age of 91. we will speak to two women who knew him. katrina vanden heuvel and nina khrushcheva, granddaughter of nikita khrushchev. the obal sea lel rise by the inn of the century. even if the world wants to halt all greenhouse gas emissions today. and we look at why workers at google are protesting a secretive project to provide high-tech artificial intelligence tools to israel. >> $1.2 million project with the israeli government. the contract will help further israeli apartheid and surveillance of palestinians. >> google is sustaing

retaliation culture. [indiscernible] amy: one of the organizers at google against the copies work with israel has been forced out. she will join us today, along with a colleague. all of that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in ukraine, engineers at that nuclear power plant have ordered an emergency shutdown at the nuclear reactor and its reports of intense artillery fire near the site. just one of the plane souks -- six nuclear reactors is opering. one is relying on a diesel backup. both russia and ukraine blame each other for the latest

fighting around the plant, which russia has occupied since march. the violence delay the arrival of a team of u.n. inspectors of the iaea whjust arrived at the plant. the iaea director general spoke to reporters in kyiv just before joining the convoy of inspectors. >> emissions six to prevent a nuclear accident and preserve [inaudible] amy: the world health organization warns catastrophic flooding in pakistan has left more than 3 million children in need of humanitarian assistance and increase risk of disease, drowning, and malnutrition. the w h o has declared the flooding a great three emergency , the highest level. new satellite images show how unprecedented monsoon rains have

created a 60 mile wide inland lake around the overflowing river, leaving a huge swath of pakistan underwater. united nations officials were the flooding of hospitals and clinics could compound the start of waterboard diseases -- waterboard diseases. >> close to 900 health facilities have been damaged or destroyed in pakistan, leaving millions of people without access to health care and medical treatment. amy: residents of jackson, mississippi, are spending a fourth day without running water after torrential rains caused the pel river to overflow its banks, flooding a water treatment plant. in southern california, anaheim has broken its all-time temperature record at 106 degrees fahrenheit, while burbank hit a record 112 degrees wednesday. meanwhile, a brush fire expanded to over 4000 acres overnight, forcing closure of the i-5

freeway north of los angeles to governors of western states are warning of the threat of more fires over labor day weekend is the he dome is expected to bring above normal and even record temperatures to much of the united states over labor day weekend. in alaska, democrat mary peltola has beaten former governor and 2008 republican vice presidential nominee sarah palin in a special election to fill the state's open u.s. congressional seat. she will replace long-running congressmember don young, who died in march after nearly a half-century as alaska's lone republican representative in the house. loan representative overall. sarah palin blamed the ranked choice voting system her defeat. it's a rare state-wide victory for a democrat in alaska and a possible sign of midterm election voter-backlash against the supreme court's decision to

strike down abortion rights under roe v. wade. peltola campaigned on reproductive rights. many have called this an early roe-vember, and will make history as the first alaska native in congress. she has voiced qualified support for controversial oil and gas development projects, including drilling in the arctic national wildlife refuge. this comes after the state of alaska sued the biden administration, alleging it failed to act on its obligations to cleanup knowingly polluted sites affecting alaskan native populations. texas republican governor gregg abbott said wednesday he had sent a charter bus full of immigrants from the u.s.-mexico border to chicago, illinois. 60 of the migrants arrived at chicago's union station wednesday evening in the latest move by abbott to forcibly relocate asylum-seekers to so-called liberal cities. in recent weeks, thousands of others have been forced to board

buses to washington, d.c., and new york city. a spokesperson for chicago mayor lori lightfoot told "the texas tribune" -- "texas governor greg abbott is without any shame or humanity. but ever since he put these racist practices of expulsion in place, we have been working with our community partners to ready the city to receive these individuals." new government figures show texas has spent more than $12 million busing asylum seekers out-of-state. meanwhile, cnn reports arizona republican governor doug ducey has spent about $3.5 million on a similar program. the food and drug administration has authorized emergency use of two booster shots designed to better protect against widely circulating subvariants of the coronavirus. the vaccines produced by pfizer and moderna are nearly identical to mrna shots that were first authorized for use in the u.s. in december of 2020.

but the new formulations target the ba.4 and ba.5 omicron subvariants that currently account for nearly all u.s. covid cases. vaccine experts say the new boosters remain safe, but it's far less clear how effective they will be. data submitted by pfizer and moderna to the fda relies on studies in mice. there is currently no clinical trial data studying the boosters' efficacy in humans. a cdc panel of vaccine experts meets today to discuss the boosters. if the agency approves them, as expected, shots will be available, free of charge, at pharmacies, doctors' offices and community health centers just after the labor day weekend. if not before. in saudi arabia, a woman has been sentenced to 45 years in prison for her social media posts. a saudi terrorism court convicted nourah al-qahtani of "using the internet to tear the

social fabric" and "violating public order by using social media." this comes just weeks after a saudi court sentenced women's rights defender salma al-shehab to 34 years in prison over her twitter posts. in the occupied west bank, a 40-year-old palestinian prisoner has ended a hunger strike that saw him subsist on only water for over 170 days. khalil awawdeh said wednesday he would break his fast after israeli officials agreed to release him in october. he has been held without charge by israel under its so-called administrative detention program since his arrest late last year. awawdeh lost over 100 pounds. his family says the hunger strike nearly killed him. he looked emaciated and frail as he spoke from a hospital bed wednesday. >> i will remain in the hospital

until i recover and be able to stand up and walk again. this victory is a continuation of the victory are palestinian people have achieved. amy: an israeli court has sentenced the gaza director of a major international charity mohammed el-halabi to 12 years in prison on charges of terrorism. israel maintains that el-halabi diverted tens of millions of dollars to the islamic militant group hamas, although independent investigations have found no proof of wrongdoing. the united nations has released a long-delayed report accusing china of serious human rights abuses againstyghur muslims and other minorities that may amount to crimes against humanity. in a 45-page report released wednesday, the office of the u.n.'s high commissioner for human rights said its investigation found credible evidence of torture, forced medical treatment, violations of

reproductive rights, poor prison conditions, and individual incidents of sexual and gender-based violence against uyghurs held in chinese mass detention camps. a chinese foreign ministry official condemned the u.n. report, writing in a statement -- "it is completely a politicized document that disregards facts, and reveals explicitly the attempt of some western countries and anti-china forces to use human rights as a political tool." the u.n. released the report after months of unexplained delays and just minutes before the former chilean president michelle bachelet ended her four-year term as u.n. human rights commissioner. last week, bachelet acknowledged she came under "tremendous pressure to publish or not publish" the report. and here in new york, a federal judge has ruled that a new state law restricting people from carrying concealed firearms in public can remain in effect.

district judge glenn suddaby ruled wednesday that the gun owners groups who sued to block the law did not have standing to challenge the law in court. this comes after the supreme court in june struck down a century-old new york law that limited the carrying of concealed handguns. new york governor kathy hochul said wednesday the state's new laws, enacted after that supreme court's ruling, will still ban guns in so-called sensitive locations. >> they said those who have concealed carry permits can pretty much take them anywhere they want. in response, we had a list of sensitive locations where guns are prohibited. the sensitive locations will include schools, colleges, day cares, libraries, restaurants that serve alcohol, parks, and also we added times square. amy: newly installed signs in times square read, "gun free

zone," adding that a violation of the prohibition is a felony. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman, joined by democracy now!'s nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. welcome to nermeen: hi, amy. september. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show looking at the life and legacy of former soviet leader mikhail gorbachev. he died tuesday at the age of 91. he led the soviet union from 1985 until its dissolution in 1991. gorbachev has been widely edited with bringing down the iron curtain, helping to end the cold war, and reducing the risk of nuclear war by signing key arms agreements with the u.s., -- with the united states. in 1990, gorbachev won the nobel peace prize. u.n. secretary general antónio guterres said -- "mikhail gorbachev was a one-of-a kind statesman who

changed the course of history. the world has lost a towering global leader, committed multilateralist, and tireless advocate for peace." but inside russia, gorbachev is seen by many in a different light. on the domestic front, gorbachev pushed to reform the soviet economy through a policy know as perestroika and to open up the soviet political system through what was known as glasnost. this is gorbachev i 1987. >> we need more enterprise, more democracy, more organization and discipline. then we will be able to bring perestroika restructuring up to full spe and given impetus to developing socialism. amy: critics say gorbachev's policies led to the breakup of the soviet union and the collapse in the standard of living for millions. by some accounts, there were over 3 million excess deaths in the former soviet republics in the 1990's as mortality rates soared after 1989. russian president vladimir putin has called the dissolution of

the soviet union in 1991 as the "greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century. the kremlin announced today that putin will not attend gorbachev's funeral this weekend in moscow. we are joined two today by two guests who knew mikhail gorbachev. katrina vanden heuvel is publisher of the nation magazine and a columnist for "the washington post." her books include "voices of glasnost: interviews with gorbachev's reformers," which she published in 1991 with her late husband stephen cohen. her new piece is headlined "gorbachev's legacy: a great reformer in his country's tormented history." and joining us from moscow is nina khrushcheva. she is a professor of international affairs at the new school. she is the great-granddaughter of former soviet premier nikita khrushchev. her latest piece is headlined "the greatest democrat russia ever had." we welcome you both to democracy now!

ofessor, can you talk about how gorbachev is perceived outside of russia and where you are inside? >> well, -- thank you, amy. he is perceived differently by different people. people like me, people that -- he is a great hero. he allowed the soviet union to be open, to have more freedom. he is a hero. the night he died, nobody was sleeping. everyone was talking to each other and thinking what a momentous day it is, especially now when russia is having or conducting a special military operation. i have to say from moscow in ukraine and in some way it is the end of the gorbachev era. his death has not become just an

historical event, he was an old man, but also very momentous event because we can compare what gorchev's soviet union was before it got dissolved. gorbachev did not dissolve the soviet union. he tried everything to preserve it. it was dissolved by others, so it is -- it is a great tragedy. the last few days, the kremlin rhetoric, even though the critics actually have been quite complimentary of him, we know -- lying in saturday. but he went to see the body. he kneeled in front of it and so far and so forth. somehow the state has decided th're going to take his legacy

come all the critical of his period of disarray and getting russia's strength out of the soviet union because that is how gorbachev is perceived, that he showed weakness of the soviet union. decided for now they're going to procreate the legacy of freedom and what russian history in the last century and the first quarter of the century have been. nermeen: let's talk a little bit about his legacy, the words must associated with him glasnost and perestroika. could you explain what happen once these policies were implemented, which was all most immediately after he came to power in 1985? and over which some say he lost control. >> well, that incredible question.

actually, it wasn't exactly clear whether he was a reformer or not. i remember we were waiting with baited breath how he was going to act after the whole rather conservative leaders had. it was more appearance o silence and is some way. wehought, for example, the khrushchev family was going to be another disaster because khrushchev's name was mentioned 20 years altogether. the first time we realized gorbachev -- only in 1986, so it took about a year to really navigate very difficult way in the quarters of the kremlin because he was a reformer, had a good reforming team. but there was a lot of headliners were not going to give up that monolith of the soviet union they believed in. so all of the words like perestroika, glass not, the

opening -- there was another one. i just learned rather recently all of the words we associated with gorbachev in fact were taken from early khrushchev speeches. by doing this, even at the beginning they were not really claiming they were khrushchev descendants, but by doing this already showing a path but the other part of it was interesting because he was considered a kgb candidate will stop a candidate who becomes general specter of the soviet union. red liners, it was a bit of a pacify notion that he came out of the previous leader, the head of the kgb. gorbachev was politically savvy trying to navigate betweenhe liners and --

nermeen: i would like to bring katrina vanden heuvel into the convnversation. you knew gorbachev as well. if you could talk about your meetings with him? you also conducted an extensive interview with him alongside relate husband stephen cohen -- your late husband stephen cohen. in particular, would you could speak, as you do in the nation, of his legacy on foreign policy? he withdrew the soviets from afghanistan. and then these arms control treaties with the u.n. >> i welcome nina's points from moscow. grandfather had an enormous influence on gorbachev. gorbachev was somewhat -- people of the 60's. 1961 to 1964 became a model, as did my late husband's book on a

soviet leader who was killed in stalin's purges in 1938. gorbachev read the book on vacation before he became general secretary. was an alternative to what have been a model stalinism in the soviet union. inspired by it in terms of perestroika, opening up the economy, rolling back seven decades of censorship. in that context, ty first me at the soviet embassy in washington when gorbachev came for his visit in 1987. over the years, we saw gorbachev when we went to moscow. he always welcomed talking to those who had points of views about american foreign policy or what was happening in the country. he was also someone who i came to know as a believer in independent journalism. he was a supporter, ctributed some of his nobel peace prize winnings to th establishment of

-- what a sweet irony that gorbachev received an 199and then -- who reconsidered his son, by the way. he was a jolly person and away, grew very pessimistic -- in a way, grew very as a mystic post of the character we have not discussed yet is yeltsin. yeltsin was responsible for the dissolution, the liquidation, the abolition of the soviet union. it could have possibly been maintained in a looser federation but yelton had a will to power, gorbachev had a will to reform. the clash of men in history, and i usually do not do the allman history, really did play a role -- all men history, really did play a role in signing the treaty and then it wit --

very little to do with the nationalist. many had already received the property and power. gorbachev was the most radical thinker about security who ever let a major country. the most revolutionary radical in his new the abolition. he rolled back generations of military buildup. yet a vision, new thinking, which was a demilitarization of foreign policy that we would end thcold war and instead of nato, we would have an alternative to security structure, better equipped to do with pandemics and nuclear proliferation and climate crisis. he became a great believer in climate crisis. he established a group called global green about two decades ago. he was an interesting figure. i think we can take lessons today from gorbachev as we build

up military armaments that will kill people and not help reconstruct a more fair and just world. amy: i want to go, katrina, the comments that gorbachev made about putin but actually the whole relationship over decades and the changing relationship leading many to question whether putin would even be going to the funeral. let's go to comments gorbachev made about putin in 2011. >> do you remember i said once i would advise vladimir to go? there were three terms. two terms as president. one is prime minister. three terms. it is enough. it is enough because clans are formed around him. amy: in an interview with the

bbc in 2019, gorbachev appeared to defend putin's hold on power. >> our president inherited such chaos. and everyone thought he stopped the chaos and literally took everything on himself. press reports we're hearing that people want him to stay on. amy: that is gorbachev in 2019

and 2011. katrina vanden heuvel, if you can talk about his changing view right through to the russian invasion of ukraine? >> so mikhail gorbachev was a deep democrat, social democrat out of the communist party. he introduced the fairest and freest imprimatur elections to russia. he also -- the missing figure is yelton who presided over the creation of an oligarchy which continues to elude russia. so in that, he saw putin coming in, appointed by yelton come to kind of save the institution of the state, the nuclear institutions and installations as well from chaos, breaking down. he respected putin as the alternative to yeltsin, but he saw how putin acquired more and

more power. the process of democratization began under yeltsin but has continued vigorously under putin and he began to see that. the man, a leader who withdrew a country from afghanistan -- and that was that easy. there are transcripts showing the fights. did not admire someone who was waging war in chechnya, following yeltsin's path. he finally saw in ukraine -- by the way, nina khrushcheva knows this well, raisa was have ukrainian and gorbachev's family have ukrainian, he despaired of the war in ukraine and i think in that, he saw that putin -- he is the russian status. he is anti-communist, the russian world, and gorbachev was a social democrat of a more

european kind. the battle between europeanists and -- continues. it has for centuries. i think you can see in putin marvin slava file. one thing gorbachev always said, at the end of the cold war, and this is something that was shared by george h.w. bush at the beginning, there was more winter. there was no winner. but i think in the end, opened gorbachev's eyes to the dangers of making an agreement with the west which would be broken, as was desha broken promise which was a stab in the back. we cannot forget yeltsin played a role in creating a country that really demanded more attention in terms of the chaos and the destruction. nermeen: nina, if you can

respond to that, what katrina has said, and your sense of how gorbachev in his last months, in particular, says the russian invasion of ukraine, his perception of this war and relate it to the opposition he had two attempts in the baltics and the caucuses in 1989 to gain greater independence from russia as the soviet union was coming apart and how, in fact, protests at the time -- protesters were killed? >> thank you. i actually wanted to follow up on what katrina was saying. very important. gorbachev hated war. i mean, he got a nobel peace prize. [indiscernible]

live with this notion of freedom and value the freedom instilled. something katrina was saying that gorbachev was a globalist. that is very important putin is not. the clip you played, it is not that he is supporting putin staying onorever. 2019. so two years ago. he was in 89-year-old man. he thinks putin should not stay, but putin was already reelected or reinstalled himself in 2018. what gorbachev was saying was staying until 2024, which technically putin's term should be expiring in. so those words he said, none of it is support for putin staying

forever. gorbachev was saying early on putin was helpful in bringing chaos of the sort of chaotic global capitalism that developed under yeltsin under some control. but absolutely, i don't think we should interpret this as something that gorbachev was supporting putin. he hated the war. i did not talk to him, but i spoke to somebody to kind of deliver a message to him and his words to me that he hated all of it. he just thought -- he felt very sad that russia gave up on this potential that really was given to us into the world. as for the protests, yes, mikhail gorbachev -- it is a

just bought it country. it always existed through repression and he could not escape some of it. in 1989 who could have sent to east berlin to defeat the falling of the berlin wall. and yet he didn't. let's remember, i know it is a horrible thing and it is a horrible thing but people died but comparing to soviet history, 13 people. death, of course, every pursing counts. but i would like to remember contextually gorbachev was an absolute democrat in comparison to anyone who came before him, including nina khrushcheva. nermeen: nina khrushcheva, you not only knew gorbachev, but you credit him with your life as an academic.

>> i think katrina kinda pointed out, he said it is a free country, do whatever you want to do. [indiscernible] just imagine to apply for -- he allowed me to be an ex-pat. this was an incredible gift to freedom. amy: i want to thank you for being with us, nina khrushcheva, professor at the new school, great-granddaughter of former soviet premier nikita khrushchev. speaking just from moscow. katrina vanden heuvel, publisher of the nation, columnist for "the washington post." next up, we go to a major new study that shows greenland's

melting ice sheet will likely contribute almost a foot to global sea level rise by the end of this century. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. this week a major new study revealed greenland's melting ice sheet will likely contribute almost a foot to global sea level rise by the end of the century. that is twice as much as previously reported. writing in the journal nature climate change, researchers found that even if the world were to halt all greenhouse gas emissions today, higher levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide have already doomed 120 trillion tons of greenland's ice to melt. without urgent action to mitigate the damage, researchers

warn sealevel rise could be far higher. for more, we're joined by one of the reports co-authors. vid bahr is a glaciologist at the instute of atic and alpine research at the university of colorado, boulder. david, welcome to democracy now! talk about what you have found in the so-called zombie ice that you and your colleagues study. >> zombie is a good term. what we have found is the greenland ice sheet is trying to recover from damage we have already done. so we're not even talking about future climate change. the foot of sea level rise due to the damage we have already caused. in order to kind of correct, the ice sheet is trying to readjust its position and lving ice along the margins of the ice sht essentially dynamically disconnected frothe rest o the ice she. it is dead ice. it is already committed to the oceans.

that is why we are calling a zombie ice. it is relegated to the oceans and thsea level rise,nd there's nothing we can do about that now. our best hope is to try to prepare for the future and try not to make it worse. nermeen: explain why greenland is so important. >> there are several sources of sea level rise. underappreciated as a thermal of the ocean. as we warm the atmosphere, we warm the waternd it expands just like most things. the second largest causef sea level rise is now greenld. it used to be the small glacrs. by sma, i mean those in the alps, himalayas, alas. greenld is overtaking that. there are areas where the small glaciers are no longer as big a contributor is the mainland. greenland, surprising how much water it contributes to sea level rise. nermeen: david, what can we

extrapolate, if anything, from what this study finds on greenland to other ice sheets, glaciers elsewhere in the world? right now we're seeing devastating floods in pakistan. pakistan is home to the largest number of glacrs and of the wod. >> right. each one of thesetudi shows things to be a little bit worse than we had hoped. antarctica is a big question mark. we don't wanted to get a lot worse. the question is, will it? milartudies should be done there. the world small glacier are melting an unpredented rate and will continue to be a major factor in sea level rise. we have to think about the climate change that is still coming. if we don't tamp that down, we

are expecting up to 2.5 level -- sea level. good tuesday, the u.n. secretary general warned the world is sleepwalking toward the destruction of the planet. he made the comment in a plea for nations to help pakistan recover from its devastating floods that have left of to a third of the country under water, have killed well over 1000 people, displaced 33 million. >> the government of pakistan has asked for the international community's help, to work together to work collaboratively for this colossal crisis. let us all step up in solidarity and support to the people of pakistan in their ho of need. let's stop sleepwalking toward the destruction of our planet by climate change.

today it is pakistan. tomorrow, it could be your country. amy: david bahr, that is the u.n. secretary general. we see the horror taking place in pakistan. we see the heat dome in the united states. the record-breaking heat in california. fires as well. you have jackson, mississippi, a number of issues coming together from race to climate. make the connection is a glaciologist, as a climate change scientist, to your report. the overall issue of the climate catastrophe right now and what can be done to reverse what has happened so far. >> reversing is difficult, but we can mitigate. at this point, we have committed ourselves to a certain amount of damage. we're going to continue to see

fires and floods. we're going to continue to see the sea level rise. but the faster we can get to know zero, the better we will all be. we are expecting nuisance flooding, storm surges, destruction along the coastline. it doesn't have to get a whole lot worse. over the next 100 years, ok, we are committed to one foot of sea level rise in the damage we expect from that. but there's no reason we need to make it worse. if we start reducing our carbon emissions in a serious way, and we can avoid this worst-case scenario of multiple feetf se level rise. amy: david bahr, what most shocked you? you've been looking at glaciers for a long time. your report is like twice the prediction of the nobel peace prize winning ipcc, the intergovernmental panel on climate change projected to

adjust to five inches of sea level rise from glacial melting in greenland. why this massive leap? >> well, i was involved in the 2013 ipcc report. what struck me is the magnitude of the loss -- what we are already committed to, nobody involved in this research expected to see double what we had thought before. that is just really shocking. if we look at the future damage, the idea we could even get up to 30 inches of melt water from greenland is just shocking. amy: can you talk about the methodology that you used in this reporting that led you to this? >> yes. most of the reports involved with sea level rise from greenland involved computer models. in our case, we used observation

looped on the ground. there was a lot of kobach involved. develop some physics we used to plug the data in that we got from the actual ice sheet, and it shows the snow line -- the dividing line between what melt each year and what accumulates snow each year is steadily shifting at words. -- upwards. by tracking how the starlight is moving upwards, we can determine how much of the ice is just zombie ice. the ice that has one foot in the grave and committed to sea level. amy: solution? >> i think we ought of the solution. we have to get back down to net zero. that requires serious government action. it is great we all pitch in, but without concerted effort of the world's governments, we're not going to make the kind of progress we need to make. amy: david bahr, thank you for being with us glaciologist at

, the institute of arctic and alpine research at the university of colorado, boulder, co-author of the new report published in nature, "greenland ice sheet climate disequilibrium and committed sea-level rise." stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "it's too late" by otis redding. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we end today's show looking at protests inside google about a secretive project to provide advanced artificial intelligence tools to the israeli government and military. the intercept recently obtained documents about what's known as project nimbus, a $1.2 billion cloud computing contract between google and israel. the intercept reports "documents indicate that the new cloud would give israel capabilities for facial detection, automated image categorization, object tracking, and even sentiment analysis that claims to assess the emotional content of pictures, speech, and writing."

over the past year, employees inside google have been organized against project nimbus. earlier this week, a video was posted online by a group called jewish diaspora in tech featuring current palestinian google workers. to protect their identity, their comments were read by volunteers. >> theroject wl be a big ugly moment and google's hisry d a shamul and earrassg gagement. oject nius wilagonizhe ny w trulyelieve a sta fogoogl's ssion d valu. >> working at ggle s my drm job unl i leard about ojecnimbus i feel le i makg myiving f the opession omy famil back he. >> if gooe belies in the use ai, wre thehoosg to pfit from billionollar ntract wh the gornment a milita which consisttly file its inteational w?

amy: that video featuring current palestinian google workers. to protect identity, their comments were read by volunteers. this all comes as a worker at google says she was forced out of the company for organizing against google's secretive work with israel. in her resignation letter, ariel koren wrote -- "google systematically silences

palestinian, jewish, arab and muslim voices concerned about google's complicity in violations of palestinian human rights -- to the point of formally retaliating against workers and creating an environment of fear." ariel koren joins us now, along with gabriel schubiner, who is a current google employee, artificial intelligence researcher, and alphabet workers union organizer. we welcome you both to democracy now! ariel, this is your first television interview. can you explain what happened to you? the issues you raise, the organizing that is going on inside google, and then what took place, why you are out? coax thank you for having us. i first found out about project nimbus in november at a time i was on disability leave. i returned to the company from disability to accept first speaking out about project nimbus, myself and gabriel are two google workers who publicly

opposed the contract. in medially after, my second day back, i was notified the company had made the decision to move my role over to são paulo immediately. i was given 17 business days to accept the move or lose my role. even though i've been given supposedly 17 business days, the second day my manager was communicating to the team i would be leaving. nermeen: could you put this in the broader context? there have been reports that google has been penalizing employees who speak out on various issues, several in fact have been fired? >> this is a continuation of a larger pattern of retaliation. i think it is really clear the message google was trying to send was we're going to out this worker to scare other workers from speaking out. the intent was to silence

workers but the opposite is happening. yesterday 15 workers, meaning whom are palestinians, spoke out about the deeply entrenched culture within google of silencing palestinian colleagues , silencing people who speak out for palestinian human rights, spoke out about receiving hr warnings just for identifying openly as palestinian or sharing news about what is happening in palestine. people have been issued pay cuts, issued warnings, have been threatened by colleagues and hr. the culture of retaliation is immense. i think workers are starting to rise up. we have five workers who have spoke out publicly with their names, publicly opposing project nimbus. amy: if you can talk about what this palestinian jewish, as well as other workers, alliance, the power of this within google and how management is addressing this? you speak hebrew. you speak arabic. you speak spanish. you are, to say the least, a

polyglot. >> yeah, so gabriel, myself, other colleagues within google started to organize a group called jewish diaspora in tech that is really growing and i think power as well, that is working in solidarity with the palestine committee within google, with palestinian and arab workers. we formed a response to the fact google is weaponizing its "diversity, equity, and inclusion" infrastructure in order to put forward false narratives of anti-semitism that are designed to quell folks who speak out for palestinian rights. this is a tool google is using to protect its business interest . in this case, just silence opposition to project nimbus. nermeen: you are a present

employee. could you talk about what the environment is within google and the fact you are with the alphabet workers union, one of the organizers, and one of the people who was reportedly sacked at google was sacked for creang a pop-up message on google's corporate network simply informing workers of their protected rights to unionize? >> thank you for bringing that up. as you mentioned, google has a history of retaliation. i think that retaliation is an act of fear. i think google is afraid of worker power and google continues to hire unionbusting consultants as part of this, try to make an example of ariel. as you mentioned, i think it has only strengthened the labor movement within google. organizing in tech, organizers

strongly around labor issues, contract issues, as well as ethical issues because big tech is such a huge inflows on the world. organizing at google -- i think project maven, a contract with the department of defense at google, ended up dropping due to work opposition really set the tone for how strong tech organizing can be. nermeen: could you elaborate? could you talk about what project maven was and how many people were involved opposing it within google? >> gives a contract with the department of defense were google was intended to develop custom ai for drone footage. thousands of google employees sign petitions against it. critically, a team of engineers close to the project threatened

work stoppage. huge employee pushback on this project. in response to that, google developed ai principles. google has since taken many steps to avoid the responsibilities it publicly commits to through those principles by claiming cloud contracts are neutral technology and the ai principles do not apply to these contracts. because it is extremely powerful providing that power to estella military and government is not a neutral act. amy: gabriel, are you concerned about your job, speaking out? have the palestinian google workers, said jess in the last day of come out come out publicly?ariel is already out but you still work there. if you could talk more about

specifically project nimbus and why this cloud computing contract is most alarming to you? >> definitely. yeah, i mean, there is a possibility for retaliation but find a lot of strength and solidarity and my organizing connections with ariel, with the union we have a lot of support. and really i feel like -- amy: ariel koren and gabriel schubiner. i can tell you we've had so much trouble this morning. our guests in the san francisco studio. first we lost the audio, that would last a video, then we got the audio if you could hear the scratching is, now we just lost the visual. we want to thank our guests for being with us, ariel koren, former marketing manager for

google education and alphabet workers union organizer. we also want to thank gabriel schubiner who currently works at google, speaking out, still as a worker there now, with alphabet workers union organizing. they have taken on project nimbus, a project of google and google's relationship with the state of israel. that does it for our show. i should say also you can sign up for our daily news digest email texting " "democracynow." you can subscribe to our podcast in english or spanish. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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