al jazeera, canberra. ♪ >> these are the top stories. hundreds of protesters have been detained across russia. one way tickets out of the country have sold out. traffic has surged in border crossings. the u.s. secretary of state urged the un security council to send a clear arrested t-- send a clear message to russia. antony blinken described moscow's actions as riskless -- as reckless, saying it must

stop. >> how has this aggression by president putin against ukraine improved the lives of a single russian citizen? one man shows this war. one man can end it. because if russia stops fighting, the war ends. if ukraine stops fighting, ukraine ends. that is why we will continue to support ukraine as it defends itself. >> is real's prime minister told the u.n. general assembly he supports a two state solution to the palestinians. he said this is important for israel's security. the u.s. has announced sanctions on several members of iran's so-called morality police. it follows the death of a woman in iran being held by the force. it is accused by the united states of violence against

iranian women and of violating the rights of peaceful protesters. you are up-to-date with the headlines. more news coming up on al jazeera after we go to inside story. ♪ ♪ >> donald trump and his family accused of massive financial fraud. the former u.s. president has dismissed the lawsuit as a witchhunt. will his latest legal woe weaken or cement his political standing? this is inside story. ♪

welcome to the program. donald trump has branded himself as the ultimate self-made billionaire. he boasts about creating an empire on the back of his impeccable business skills. but the u.s. state where he made his name said his success was built on lies and fraud. new york's attorney general filed a civil lawsuit against trump and three of his children. they are accusing him of inflating assets to secure insurance policies. one bank estimates the trump building in manhattan is worth about $220 million. the trumps put its value at more than double that. the luxury mar-a-lago resort in florida, likely worth around $75 million, was valued at nearly 10 times that amount. the attorney general wants the trump to be banned for life for working for a new york company, prevented for having any

dealings with the state's banks for five years and pay a quarter of a billion dollars in damages. >> this conduct cannot be rushed aside and dismissed as some kind of good faith mistake. the statements of financial condition were greatly exaggerated, grossly inflated, objectively false and therefore fraudulent and illegal. >> claiming you have money that you do not have does not amount to the art of the deal. it is the art of the steel. host: donald trump has labeled the allegations another witchhunt. he has called letitia james racist and accused her of filing a lawsuit to win a reelection. writing, i never thought this case would be brought until i saw her bad poll numbers. she campaigned on a "get trump" platform. first let's have a look at the other infestations into the former president.

there is a criminal probe into his possible mishandling of classified information. last month the mpi searched his mar-a-lago home. -- fbi searched his mar-a-lago home. there is the storming of the capitol by his supporters. trump's statements are part of this investigation. then there are his alleged efforts to overturn georgia's 2020 presidential election results. he is accused of pressuring the secretary of state to find votes to reverse joe biden's victory. ♪ let's bring in our guests. in london, chairman of republican overseas u.k. and a former federal prosecutor. in birmingham, u.k., a professor of international politics at the clinton institute at the university college dublin. i welcome you all. i want to begin in washington dc. this is a civil lawsuit, not a criminal one. is there a smoking gun here?

is there something that can put donald trump and his family in real difficulty? >> from the former president's perspective, this may be the most troubling investigation he has to deal with. he's facing the possibility of being barred from real estate in new york for five years and having the leadership of the trump organization taken away from him. i'm sure he's worried about that . in addition, this case has also been referred to the u.s. attorney for the district of new york and the internal revenue service. there is a possibility of tax fraud. the sheer number of allegations of improper valuation of his properties could well have serious tax consequences for the former president. host: but this is all part of the rough-and-tumble of new york real estate. i can't imagine somebody in that business -- honesty is not a word we associate with those people. this is just business of the

day, isn't it? >> i think that will be a tough argument for mr. trump to make. in his deposition earlier this year he took the fifth amendment a huge number of times when asked about the valuation of his properties. that will be used in any kind of trial, where there will be a strong inference of guilt in that case for taking the fifth. that would not happen in a criminal trial, but in a civil trial it does. there will be the inference that he indeed knew he was missed valuing the properties, which will contribute to a finding of guilt. he will argue there was no intent to defraud. and the fact that he has no email, very rarely emails, will help him. the government will need to show that he had the intent to defraud. again, there is a plethora of evidence lined up against him. this is a very long civil complaint, but we are still at the beginning of this process.

undoubtedly mr. trump will be filing a motion to dismiss. we will see how it goes. he also is facing additional jeopardy from this investigation because it has been referred to come in authorities as well. host: let me bring in greg in london. you are the chairperson of the republicans overseas. there is a litany of charges, not just this one, being brought against donald trump. how can you still defend him? >> i'm not sure i would defend the president o any -- on any of these individual cases on their own, but i think there is a long history of this. it has been going on for six years, specifically with tish james it has been going on for three years. there might have been disappointment that she was not able to come up with a criminal case, nor was the manhattan da able to come up with a criminal case. that might be a disappointment.

on top of what started in 2016 with the pressure collusion hoax, many seemed -- russia collusion hoax, many seemed confident it would end his political career. it turned out to be a hoax. it is a long list. i argue what should be most worrying to the president is the mishandling of classified documents. not that i have a view on whether that will work or not, but it is another case in the long list of attempts to decriminalize president trump. if you look at what happened and what happened in mar-a-lago, i'm not sure what the intentions were. the president was up nine points over ron desantis 45-36 prior to the raid. after the raid, the first people came up with trump up 39. if anything it probably

generates some sympathy for the president. i'm sure he will not do well in manhattan. i think there is plenty of support for tish james in manhattan. if you look at the other boroughs, they are concerned about crime and the lack of prosecution by tish james. i think there will be disappointment, especially amongst the minority communities suffering from the crime wave. if anything, this is a distraction away from the real issues that are important to new yorkers. who knows what will happen in terms of the civil case, but i'm not confident it is going to hurt the president much. host: we will come to scott lucas in birmingham. this is a case of teflon, where nothing can touch him and it is a distraction? >> it is a case of making sure that we cut through politics and disinformation and stick with the facts. the wider context is that donald trump may have a stake in

justice, but his campaign did collaborate with russia in 2016 to get him elected. that is on the record in the muller report. donald trump tried to blackmail a country, ukraine, a country which is now at war, because it would not spread disinformation against his opponent in the 2020 election, joe biden. donald trump is facing civil and criminal investigations over his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. he is facing investigation over his possible incitement of violence in the capitol attack and is facing multiple financial cases. contrary to what greg said, this was not a political campaign by the new york state attorney general, it was a legal case based upon a great deal of evidence, evidence obtained from years of trump trying to block documents being provided. contrary to what greg said, the

manhattan criminal investigation is not over. they have decided not to go to the grand jury for the moment, but the impact is that the findings in the james investigation, the civil investigation, having been handed over to the manhattan district attorney, may mean they were -- may mean they renew going to the grand jury. i'm talking about the operation of the u.s. legal system. the danger here is politics and disinformation is not just a case of defending trump, teflon don, it is undermining the u.s. system, which has to continue after he is gone one day, whether it is behind bars or somewhere else. host: melanie, it is difficult to separate the politics from the investigations. as a former federal prosecutor, when you are talking about high-profile cases like this, how much of the politics of this are you aware of, and how much does that influence you?

>> obviously the politics are very significant in that mr. trump is going on television, insisting if anyone goes after him, they are facing potential mob violence. he is trying to bring in his supporters to stop any criminal case, which as scott said would be antidemocratic. we are facing a crisis in our democracy. the thought that there would be mob rule to stop a viable prosecution is a terrifying thing. i want to correct something greg said earlier, which is tish james did not bring a criminal investigation, suggesting she did not have the evidence. she did not have the jurisdiction to bring a criminal charge. that is not her role in the attorney general's office. she is not the person for that. her office is not the right office. there is however another

important criminal case going to trial shortly against the trump organization for conspiracy and all sorts of criminal violations. allen weisselberg, the former chief financial officer of the trump organization, who had to plead guilty earlier this year to commit all charges, is set to testify in that case. we should expect to see interesting information coming out about potential fraud coming from his testimony. that too is yet another sentence where mr. trump is facing legal jeopardy. don't forget he also is facing these state investigation in georgia over the calls to brad raffensperger and the attempt to "find votes" in georgia. there is the justice department's january 6 inquiry, which is ongoing. the house of representatives is conducting a parallel investigation into mr. trump's role in inciting the insurrection.

host: at what point do the republicans turn around and say there are too many legal cases here, there is too much smoke, go away, deal with all of this and stop trying to be the senior most famous republican on the planet, it is not helping us? >> that is a great question. there is a significant number of republicans that would prefer that someone else runs in 2024. for a number of reasons, one is that the president will be 78 years old on election day. the other is he can only serve one term. i think there is a lot of scar tissue in the party about the special elections in georgia. melanie mentioned the georgia election. that was disappointing to many of us in the party, that the president was too focused on his own ego or looking back at the november 2020 election instead of focusing on the special election which cost republicans the senate.

there is some scar tissue there. as i mentioned before, there was a gradual narrowing in the polls between trump and ron desantis, but also trump and other candidates, up until the raid at mar-a-lago. if the attention -- if the intention was to elevate trump in the polls, it worked. if the intention was to never ha trump be president aga, i think it backfir. the audience in america, the voters, often will see these things as witchhunts. i know that is the term the president uses. i'm not necessarily agreeing with him. this is the last of a long list of attempts to defame the president that started with the pressure collusion hoax. scott and i i'm sure will disagree on this. much of this information is coming out currently, that it was fabricated by the hillary

clinton campaign with the support of trump. >> that is wrong. please -- that is flat out wrong. >> i'm happy to state the facts. >> that is flat out wrong. >> i'd love to have a reunion with all the people who were telling me in 2018 that he colluded with the russians. host: let's get scott's reaction. i will bring you both a and again. >> i'm always amused by scott's reaction. >> let me give you the facts. the muller report finds that there is ongoing contact and collaboration between the trump campaign and the russians throughout 2016. both were members of the campaign and important advisors like roger stone. the muller investigation finds that collaboration included the dumps over hillary clinton's emails that had been stolen by the russian. the mueller report finds at

least eight occasions there is substantial evidence that trump either obstructed justice or attempted to. the only reason why trump was not prosecuted under the mueller report was not because it was a hoax, but because mueller was told by the justice department you do not have jurisdiction to indict a sitting president. the only reason why that happened. and as for your disinformation that there was a democratic plot that goes on, that is part of the discredited durham investigation, which after years of wasting taxpayer's money, brings a couple minor cases that yield no results and is now being shut down. let's stick with the facts. this is not to defame donald trump. host: before we get bogged down in the details, and it is fascinating, but i want to keep this on-topic. i want to bring in melanie here. all of this goes to show you how remarkably political all of this

is. we are arguing about what facts were, who did what. how difficult is it for somebody like james to bring the civil lawsuit in this atmosphere? >> i think there is of course concern about the politics, but we are a country that is based on the rule of law. it can't be that prosecutors and people in authority over our criminal and civil laws simply look aside while trump violates all of our laws and do nothing simply because there are so many who will support him no matter what he does, as he very famously said, he could shoot someone on fifth avenue -- and that was years ago he said that. that is clearly true. there is literally nothing that his supporters would not back him for doing. i don't know if many of your viewers would have heard this, but last night mr. trump very crazily said to sean hannity in

an interview that he could have to see classified -- he could have declassified document at mar-a-lago just by thinking about it, and by thing about it it would constitute declassification, as if someone could do such a thing. i am sure millions of americans will say, sure, if he thinks about declassification that is ok. that does not mean prosecutors can look aside while mr. trump violates rules of law. they have to do their jobs even if mr. trump did not do his. host: greg, what do you think of these cases, whether you think they are a political witch hunt or not, all of them are incredibly difficult to prosecute. all of them are fraught with having to gather evidence against someone who downright lies about things and often contradicts himself. here in this particular case, this civil lawsuit, prosecutors are very concerned that the emails aren't there to prosecute

this case. that is a big challenge for them. the other challenge for them is trump's legal team. trump has stiffed many lawyers. he does not have the kind of high-profile legal team that he will need for this, right? >> no, i would agree with that. the president has a habit of self-destructing with some of his per votto -- his bravado. it is difficult to work for him. the turnover is high. it is hard to anticipate the outcomes of these things, but i think there should be a little compassion for the voters who have seen this go on for a long time. melanie is right, there are a number of republicans who are supportive of the president no matter what, but they are also seeing disinformation or misinformation. we hear that word a lot. these are the same voters who saw, for example, the hunter biden laptop that was censored

by facebook and twitter in october 2020. scott, you might not agree with me -- >> it's a diversion. it has nothing to do with this. it is a diversion. >> but that is what voters see. >> because you put it out there. stop doing it. stop doing it. >> -- what was called disinformation by the former justice professionals. this has gone on for six years. probably peaked in the fall of 2020. i think there has to be some understanding that voters are seeing information from sides. >> this information is a very strong word, greg. -- disinformation is a very strong word, greg.

it is a strong word you are using. [crosstalk] this is coming to a peak. but there are several lawsuits. there are several investigations open into donald trump. i will begin with scott first. this is the president of the united states of america. the fact that this is happening to him, is it a problem of u.s. democracy or is it a praiseworthy thing that the u.s. democracy system is doing? >> a damning indictment of the man under investigation for his business and financial practices. but even more importantly, as melanie highlighted, it is a critical moment for the u.s. system. it is a code or government for the authority of the -- a critical moment for the authority of the u.s. legal and political system, which is that any person in the united states,

even a former president, must be accountable, must be able to be investigated by the law. that no person should be able to trample upon the legal system or to corrupt the political system to avoid prosecution. and, if found guilty, to avoid responsibility. host: we are running out of time. i want to come to our other guest. melanie, is there a damming indictment or is it praiseworthy? >> i agree with everything scott said. what we have seen is that the court system has been the last bulwark of democracy. while so much has not worked and trump has been able to trample on so many of the norms of our democratic system and has brought us to a precipice, we are seeing that the legal system is protecting us, for example, with the 11th circuit coming out with the opinion yesterday

saying that the fbi investigation can continue into the classified information. even the judge that mr. trump himself picked to be the special master not taking his side in that. we are seeing that the legal system is protecting us. hopefully it will stand. host: greg, witch hunt or is this justice doing her job? >> i would say it is praiseworthy. if the institutions work and it is fair and balanced and they will charge democrats as well as republicans if they suspect there is a crime, bring it on. i think the institutions will outlive all the drama we are seeing right now. tish james ran her basic campaign strategy on "i'm going to get trump." it is hard to separate the politics. i wish she would focus as much attention on looking after the minority communities in the four

boroughs outside of manhattan who are suffering from the surge in crime. host: we are going to be looking at this a lot. scott, i see you shaking your head. very quickly, why are you shaking your head? >> because, you don't praise the legal system and say it must be upheld, then launch an ad hominem attack on the new york attorney general doing the job of trying to see that justice is served. that is irresponsible. i hope greg does not try that again. host: i want to thank all of our guests. and i want to thank you too for watching as well. you can see the program any time by visiting our website on al jazeera.com. for further discussion, go to our page, facebook.com/ajinsides tory. you can join the conversation on twitter. for me and the whole team here, bye for now. ♪

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