10/13/22 10/13/22 [captioning made possible by democracnow!] amy: from new york, th is democracy now! human rights groups say over 200 people, including 23 children, having killed in iran and's nationwide demonstrations began almost a month ago following the death of mahsa amini. we will look at how the scope of protests in iran is waiting for

something to the were in ukraine as the united nations general simply votes 143-five to condemn russia's annexation of four territory seized from ukraine. >> the united nations will not tolerate illegal annexation. we will never recognize it. these united nations will not tolerate seizing a neighbor's land by force. we will stand up to it. these united nations will not tolerate the destrucon of the u.n. charter. amy: we will speak to a ukrainian activist was a member of the european network of solidarity with ukraine, plus a russian activist living in exile in berlin. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the united nations general

simply voted overwhelmingly to condemn russia's annexation of four territories seized from ukraine after russia's military invaded in february. 143 countries voted to reaffirm ukraine's sovereignty within its internationally recognized borders. just four countries sided with russia. india and china abstained from wednesday's vote. in ukraine, russia is continuing a stepped-up campaign of bomb and missile attacks following saturday's explosion that damaged a key bridge linking russia with the russian-annexed ukrainian territory of crimea. ukraine's government says at least 13 people were killed and 37 wounded by russian strikes over the past 24 hours. among the latest attacks, they say are iranian-made drones piloted by russia that have blown up critical infrastructure facilities near the capital kyiv. meanwhile, the zaporizhzhia nuclear plant lost external power on wednesday for the

second time in five days after fighting knocked an electrical substation offline. workers activated emergency diesel generators needed to keep critical cooling systems online in order to prevent a radiation disaster. power was restored after about eight hours. this comes after the head of the international atomic energy agency rafael grossi met with vladimir putin tuesday in st. petersburg, where he urged the russian president to agree to establish a security protection zone around the zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. the largest in europe. russia has warned the u.s. and its allies against allowing ukraine to join nato. this morning, a member of russia's security council told russian state media, "kyiv is well aware that such a step would mean a guaranteed escalation to a world war iii." the comments came as officials from 50 countries, including all 30 nato countries, met in

brussels where they pledged to step up arms shipments to ukraine, including new air defense systems. following the talks, u.s. defense secretary lloyd austin was asked about russia's threats to use nuclear weapons in ukraine. >> it is reckless and irresponsible. we don't expect to see and hear that kind of behavior from a major nuclear power. so that is very dangerous. you have heard a number of leaders around the world emphasize that. amy: austin's comments come just days after poland's president said he's open to stationing nuclear weapons on polish soil and has discussed the idea with the united states. north korea says it has test-launched two long-range strategic cruise missiles capable of delivering a nuclear warhead. it's the latest in a series of north korean missile launches that have coincided with joint naval drills by the u.s., japan, south korea in waters off the

korean peninsula. the biden administration has authorized reformulated covid-19 booster shots for children as young as five years old. on wednesday, cdc director dr. rochelle walensky approved emergency use the vaccines produced by pfizer-biontech and moderna just hours after the food and drug administration authorized them. only about 4% of eligible u.s. adults have received updated, bivalent booster shots, which are meant to protect against two omicron sub-variants that currently make up most u.s. coronavirus infections. covid-19 continues to kill nearly 400 people a day across the unit states. at the white house covid task , force leader dr. ashish jha said frontline healthcare workers could face shortages of personal protective equipment this winter after the white house redirected resources away from the national stockpile in order to continue making

vaccines widely available. >> made dramatically harder by congressional inaction. you can't fight a deadly virus without resources. congressional and action is costly. amy: the biden administration is investigating whether florida republican governor ron desantis misused covid aid money to pay for flights that brought 48 venezuelan asylum seekers from texas to massachusetts as part of a political stunt. the treasure department's inspector general said it's part of a larger probe into how states used, or misused, billions of dollars of public health funds disbursed under the american rescue plan. the biden administration says it has reached a deal with mexico that will allow for 24,000 venezuelan migrants and financial sponsors to enter the u.s. while expelling others who don't meet the economic criteria

who cross the border outside the port of entry. u.s. will expel those migrants to mexico under the pandemic era title 42 program. this comes amidst reports the biden administration is preparing to scale down sanctions on venezuela to allow the chevron corporation to resume pumping oil there. l.a. city councilmember nury martinez has resigned from her position amid the political firestorm sparked by her racist comments recently leaked on an audio recording. gil cedillo and kevin de león, her fellow councilmembers who were also on the recording, have yet to resign despite the mounting outrage. among the racist comments, which attacked black and indigenous communities in l.a., martinez went after the adopted black son of white councilmember mike bonin. he addressed the hateful remarks at an emotional city council meeting on tuesday. >> i husband and i are both

distraught and angry and heartbroken and sick for our family and for los angeles. i am reeling from the revelations of what these people said. interested servants who voiced hate. public officials are supposed to call us to our highest selves and these people stabbed us and shot us and cut the spirit of los angeles. amy: on wednesday, california's attorney general said he would investigate the recent redistricting process in los angeles as a result of the city council scandal. nigeria's government says 76 people drowned when a ferry boat capsized in a flooded river in the southern state of anambra. it's the latest disaster to flow from a wetter-th-normal rainy season that many nigerians say has led to the worst flooding in at least a generation. officials say about 500 people have died as a direct result from flooding this year, with 1.4 million people displaced by

flood waters. in washington, d.c., climate activists held a bicycle protest wednesday outside the world bank as it held its annual meetings. the demonstration came after a new report found the world bank financed at least $14.8 billion in fossil fuel development since the signing of the paris climate agreement in 2015. that's despite pledges by world bank officials to stop supporting oil and gas projects. this is mark moreno pascual, a protester from the philippines. >> what we are seeing now is they are funding more than $15 billion on fossil fuels. this is that even the complete picture. there is more money flowing through indirect financing and we are seeing that being through coal power plants in the lapine's and indonesia and we are demanding the banks to stop doing this right now. amy: the house committee

investigating the january 6 insurrection is holding a hearing today. lawmakers are expected to share more evidence showing trump deliberately encouraged his violent supporters who attacked the capitol, despite knowing some were armed, and refused to step in as the situation spiraled out of control. this comes as a witness in a trial for five members of the far-right oath keepers says the group kept a large stash of firearms in a hotel room before the capitol riot. democracy now! will be streaming the january 6 hearings starting at 1:00 p.m. today on democracynow.org. a connecticut jury has ordered alex jones to pay nearly $1 billion, that's $965 million in damages to the families of eight victims of the sandy hook massacre and and fbi agent for repeatedly spreading conspiracy theories about the mass

shooting and inflicting years of suffering on the grieving families. this is erica lafferty garbatini, daughter of dawn lafferty hochsprung, who was the principal of sandy hook elementary, when she was shot dead. >> i am incredibly thankful for the message sent here today. the truth matters. and those who profit off of other people's pain and trauma will pay for what they have done . there will be more alex jones is in this world, buthat they learn here today is the absolutely will be held accountable. amy: that was the daughter of dawn lafferty hochsprung, sandy hook principal who was killed at december 14, 2012, along with 25 others, 20 of those school children. and in labor news, t-mobile workers are forming an independent union covering come 300 social media customer service workers. t-mobile merged with sprint in 2019, leading to thousands of

layoffs. the workers say they were inspired by recent unionization efforts at starbucks and amazon. this is tyler roquemore, a member of the newly formed t-force social care alliance union. >> if we don't do something as far as getting federal protections or unionizing, our jobs are next. ever since the merger with t-bile, itas been more and more layoffs, more more pay cuts, more more work pressure. so this is whawe feel is the right thing to do is stand in solidarity for workers rights. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. when we come back, human rights groups say over 200 people, including 23 children, have been killed in iran since nationwide demonstrations began almost a month ago. we will look at how the scope of the protest are only widening. stay with us.

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amy: "this bitter earth" performed by aretha franklin. recently declassified documents show the fbi monitored the late soul singer for decades over her support for the civil rights movement and her friendships with martin luther king jr.. she offered to post bail for angela davis. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i am amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show in iran, where anti-government protests are in their fourth week, sparked last month by the death of 22-year-old mahsa amini while in the custody of iran's morality police. on monday, oil workers went on

strike in support of the protests. meanwhile, the death of 16-year-old nika shakarami has ignited more public rage. the girl's family says she disappeared after being chased by security forces for burning her headscarf during a protest and was found 10 days later at a -- in a morgue. human rights groups say at least 200 people have been killed, including an estimated 23 children, with hundreds more injured and thousands arrested. iran's supreme leader ayatollah ali khamenei condemned the protests in an address wednesday. >> agents at the enemy or if they aren't agents of the enemy and they are aligned with the enemy, but the same goals, take to the streets. others are just excited. the second group can be fixed with cultural works. the first group must be dealt

with by judicial and national security officials. the atmosphere in the country should not become one of national security, but the cultural programs should be differentiated from the judicial security matters. amy: this comes as the chief of iran's judiciary has now ordered judges to issue harsh sentences for what he called the "main elements of riots." iran's education minister yousef nouri said in an interview tuesday some students protesters are being detained and taken to what he called psychological institutions, saying they "can return to class after they've been reformed." one of the many teenagers reportedly killed by running security forces was 15-year-old saivassh mahmoudi. this is his mother. >> this is my son. i will have a funel for him.

he was a boy from a neighborhood where we have lived for several years. i was a single mom and raised this kid alone. they have killed my son so unfairly and cowardly at the end of the street. they shot him in the head. this is iran's savivassh. amy: for more, we are joined by two guests. joining us in london is raha bahreini, a human rights lawyer who is amnesty international's iran researcher. and in washington, d.c., reza aslan is a scholar, producer, and author. his recent piece for time is headlined "the iranian people's 100-year struggle for freedom" and his new book is titled "an american martyr in persia: the epic life and tragic death of howard baskerville." we welcome you both to democracy now! raha bahreini, can you talk about the broadening scope of the protests and the iran government's crackdown on them?

what have you documented at amnesty international? >> hello, amy. thank you for having the. the iranian authorities have shown to crush resistance among the youthful population and to retain their ire. amnesty international has documented widespread unwarranted use of firearms and lethal force by iran security forces. the iranian secure forces have been firing live ammunition civilly to disperse crowds and crush the protests. the deadly crackdown has left over 144 that we have identified by name, among them 24 children. their names and details of their deaths have been documented by amnesty international in a report we're issuing today. among the children are three

girls who were beaten to death. in addition, the vast majority of the boys were shot by live ammunition in their head, chest, or other body. the vast majority of those kids have been killed due to security forces firing live ammunition at their head or chest, which shows the intention of the security forces to kill protesters or their knowledge that they are firing of life, nation would result in death. nevertheless, they proceeded with these deadly activities in order to crush the protests. we have also documented wider spread patterns of torture and other treatment including severe beatings of protesters and bystanders in the streets at the hands of security forces. amnesty international obtained some leaks documents from the

national headquarters of armed forces, the highest military body in iran. on september 21, they ordered armed commanders in all provinces across iran to crush the protesters severely and mercilessly. since then we have documented an escalated use of lethal force and an escalation in the use of lethal force by the security forces. september 21 alone, dozens of men, women, and children were killed. the next deadliest day was september 30, population of oppressed community, fired on protesters and i standards. in the course of several hours, they killed over 85 men, women, and children. nermeen: reza aslan. if you

could respond to the scale of these protests and then the protest continuing despite the iranian regime, increasingly real crackdown on the protesters, and the fact we just heard that khamenei has dismissed many of the protesters as "agents of the enemy." >> any time there's any kind of instability in the country or protest against his regime, he is always going to lash out at the u.s. and israel and place blame on outsiders for what is an effective failure of his own leadership and the regime itself. but i think it was important to understand, the scale of this backlash from the government, the horrific violence that we just heard is indicative of just what a threat the regime believes these protests are.

as you rightly note, they're not diminishing. in fact, they are expanding. not just expanding the scope and scale and size, much more importantly, there is expanding in terms of a broader coalition. you mentioned merchants, unions are going on strike. we have ethnic minorities not just involution stamp of the critters areas of iran that are clamoring for independence. in a surprising move, we are even seeing regime supporters were sort of the pious masses in cities like homs, the religious capital of iran, we are seeing widespread protest. not just against the morality police or in response to the death of mahsa amini and 70 other young children, but protests very brazenly calling

for the downfall of ayatollah khomeini being chanted in what is essentially khamenei's backyard, his home. what is happening now is this coalition of iranians on the street is coming a serious threat to the very existence of the modern republic. unfortunately, as a result, i think we are going to see an even bloodier response from the military and from the regime in the coming weeks. nermeen: reza, can you talk about the groups of people who are not participating? you pointed out in recent piece that younger clergy as well as seminary students have not yet joined, but if they do, you think that would lead to a substantial change. explain. >> i think most outsiders don't understand how unpopular the

islamic republic, the theological underpinning of clerical rule in iran is amongst sort of rank-and-file shia clergy. this is not the majority view, the so-called -- the theological underpinning that allows for clerics, clergy in iran to have direct political control. there is no illogical history -- theological history. the contrary, it violates 14th-century of shia quite is a when it comes to political influence over government. what the ayatollah khomeini did in coming up with this idea was essentially create a whole new way of thinking about what s hiaism is. the upper echelon of the clergy, certainly those in government positions, this theory has

become entrenched. the truth of the matter is in the seminary in iran, especially younger seminarians, mid-level clerics, the sort of what we would refer to as the local i mams, are not just debating the very legitimacy of clerical rule but are now seemingly coming out and rejecting it more and more vocally. my argument was, when you start seeing that kind of structure roll up and younger seminary students, mid-level clerics begin to speak out against the very legitimacy of the theocracy of the state, well, that might be pretty much all she wrote when it comes to the clerical regime. amy: raha bahreini, i would to specifically focus on the women-let protests and the children. you have a report that was embargoed until today on the deaths of the children.

we just reported on the education minister saying they are taking some children and they putting them in institutions to reeducate them? can you talk about what you have found? and also this issue of -- for people around the world who may not be familiar with the geography of iran, the significance of the killings of more than 80 people there? >> the iranian authorities have ordered assaults on children who have courageously taken to the streets in order to demand a future without political oppression and injustice. as your other guest just explained, these protests are useful -- youthful in nature. students have been present in protest calling for an end to the system and for iran's

position to a political system that is fundamental rights. in response to iranian authorities have used horrific forms of force, including live ammunition, in order to kill children or otherwise harm and injure them. we have documented the names of 24 children. four were beaten to death and two died after they were shot with pellets at close range and the rest were shot with light, and it should in their head, chest, or other body. iranian authorities have the blood of children on their hands. the more distressing pattern is instead of conducting any investigations, they are now harassing and intimidating the families of these children in order to coerce them into making video record statements and accept the 30's bogus narrative

that the children committed suicide or died during car accidents. this is not the first time iranian authorities tried to cover up crimes that they commit, including against shaaban in the context of protests. in the nationwide protest of 2019 the iranian authorities also unlawfully killed hundreds of men and women, including 21 children. the fact they have been able to continue this successive days of protest bloodshed is because i a deep crisis of systemic impunity that has long prevailed in iran. and the price of this impunity is being paid by the lives of people in the streets in iran. this is because there is no independent judiciary in iran to conduct investigations. the scale and gravity of the crimes committed has not received the critical meaningful

action issue received at the national -- international levels from member states of the u.n. the events last friday on september 30 showed the scale of the crackdown and extreme manifestation of the deadly crackdown the iranian authorities have long waged on iran's oppressed minorities. we have documented extensive use of lethal force and high numbers in an area populated by the oppressed and in other provinces that are populated by iran's oppressed minority. as you may know, the protests started in kurdish populated cities because -- now there is solidarity among iranians all over the country.

this is the inspiring aspect of their protest. it crosses across ethnic groups and classes and demands for a transition to a different political system. and in this relation, many protesters and commenters in iran consider these protests as a nationwide uprising against the aging system that has long engaged in a systematic human rights violations and granted absolute impunity to those who kill, torture, and harm people and industry under the context of protests and behind prison walls. nermeen: let's look at this protest in historical context. you have written that of the three major revolutions over the

course of the last century in iran, the 1906 constitutional revolution provides the best historical analogy to the present uprising. in recent piece you write "the persian constitutional revolution may not have transformed iran into a real democracy but it's at the precedent for the exercise of people power in iran, creating one of the most robust protest cultures in the world." >> the 1906 constitutional revolution was not just the first of iran's three major revolutions of the 20 century but the first democratic revolution in the middle east. while it had a simple goal, which was the creation of a constitution that would outline the rights and privileges of all citizens in the creation of an elected parliament that would serve to check the absolute authority of the shah of iran

and while it did achieve that goal for a very brief while until the top receipt was returned to iran with the ascendance of resin can't and the regime which itself suffered two more revolutions, when in 1953 and one in 1979, i think what it reminded us is women and men and children who are on the streets right now dying for their most basic rights, the right to have a voice, to have a say in the decisions that rule their lives, to be able to say and think what they wish -- again, the most basic of human rights that this struggle has been going on not for a couple of weeks, not for a couple of months, but for more than a century in iran, successive governments, the shas are now the islamic republic. i think this time, had to be

honest with you come having studied history, having lived the 1979 revolution, this time feels different. there is a fearlessness that we are seeing on the streets, particularly by young women, five teenage women who -- by teenage women who serve they have had enough and are not willing to do what successive or previous generations who had also protested, also risen up against the regime, have been willing to do, which is except a bit more freedom, accept a bit more space maybe in the private realm in exchange for getting off the streets. what we are hearing right now despite the fact it is a very diverse coalition of old and young, religious, secular, women marching next to women wearing jeans and no veils. despite that, there is a unified

call for not reform but for the downfall of the regime. the regime has failed its children. and that, not just in human way, but in a persian cultural way, is about the most shameful act that you can possibly imagine. which is why this message is working. the message of shame, shame, shame is working. what we have not seen yet, however, is the international community actually shaming the iranian government. i'm very glad to hear the united nations had a vote condemning russia's legal annexation of parts of ukraine. i am waiting for the unita nations vote condemning a murders regime for kidnapping children and taking them to what they themselves referred to as psychological cams for reeducation. there is no place in the modern world for such action.

while the united states unfortunately can't do much about it -- we have already blanket sanctioned iran for four decades, really very little influence that we have -- united nations still has major influence on iran, especially at a time when that government's economy is on the verge of collapse. it is time to hear the voice of the international community as that as possible condemn these inhumane actions by the islamic republic. amy: reza aslan, the supreme leader khamenei is grooming his son to be the next leader. can you talk about what that means? and have you seen any dissection in the military and among the police? >> we have seen anecdota n evidence of security personnel going to the protesters. we have not yet seen any hint of crack's in the military

hierarchy. that does not mean that is not happening. the revolutionary guard is extraordinarily powerful. many iran watchers will tell you the revolutionary guard is the real power in iran, that the ayatollahs are basically the forward face. with the levers of control are in the hands of the revolutionary guard. that may very well be true. we're waiting to hear how the military is going to respond to these unceasing demands on the streets. but the real spark that i think iran watchers are waiting for is what happens if these protests continue and this is a long marathon of the revolution and and in the midst of this, the supreme leader, who as you rightly note, is very sick and very old, dies. the succession to the third supreme leader was always going to be problematic. again, this is not a very popular idea among those she a clergy.

-- shia clergy. the notion that khamenei, by all reports has been grooming his son from a mid-level cleric who has no real religious credentials to take on such a role, but nevertheless is being groomed to succeed his father, is going to basically put the last nail in the coffin of any kind of legitimacy for clerical rule. basically at this point, the supreme leadership has become just another word for shah, another kind of monarchy. even at that point, diehard regime supporters are going to start thinking twice. we are all waiting to see what the next spark is going to become the spark of the death of mahsa amini really turn -- the protests there were taking place the last six month over deteriorating economic conditions into a nationwide revolution. if khamenei were to die, if there were to be conversation

about succession, that i think might really create a whole new level of revolution here. already on the streets, i should mention, amongst many, many chants we're hearing protesters chant on the streets of iran, a common chant is "we wl die before we e you as a leader." amy: reza aslan, thank you for being with us, author of the new book "an american martyr in persia: the epic life and tragic death of howard baskerville." we will into your article in time, "the iranian people's 100-year struggle for freedom." and raha bahreini, amnesty international's iran researcher. sticking to us from london. next up as the u.n. general sibley votes 143-5 to condemn russia's annexation before territories sees from ukraine, we will speak with ukrainian activist, member of the european network of solidarity with

ukraine and a russian activist living in exile in berlin. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: the unofficial anthem of the around protests. -- the iran protest. received more than 80% of the submissions for the grammy award which hors a song dedicated to social change. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh.

we turn now to the war in ukraine. air raid sirens were heard across of ukraine today as russia launched a fourth day of missile strikes targeting multiple ukrainian cities and towns. many of the strikes have targeted ukraine's electricity system, leaving many areas system leaving many areas without power. ukrainian officials also some of the attacks near kyiv were carried out by iranian-made drones. this comes as western leaders are vowing to provide more arms to ukraine, as well as new air defense systems. russia escalated its attack on ukraine after a massive explosion saturday damaged a key bridge connecting russia to occupied crimea. meanwhile, at the united nations, the general assembly has voted 143 to 5 to condemn russia's annexation of four territories seized from ukraine. this is linda thomas greenfield, the u.s. representative to the united nations. >> the united nations will not

tolerate attempts at illegal annexation. we will never recognize it. these united nations will not tolerate seizing a neighbor's land i force. we will stand up to it. these united nations will not tolerate the destruction of the u.n. charter. amy: 35 nations, including china and india, abstained from the u.n. vote condemning russia's annexation. this is gene shuang, china's deputy u.n. ambassador. >> we have always believed any action taken by the general a similar should be conducive to the de-escalation of the situation, should be conducive to the early resumption of dialogue and should be conducive to the promotion of a political solution to this crisis. the draft resolution submitted will not help achieve the above-mentioned objectives. therefore, the chinese delegation will abstain.

amy: to talk more about the war in ukraine, we are joined by two guests. arshak makichyan is an exiled russian anti-war, human rights and climate activist. we spoke to him in moscow just before he fled russia in march, now based in berlin. the russian government is currently trying to revoke his russian citizenship. we also joined by hanna perekhoda. she is a ukrainian phd student in history at the university of lausanne. she is a member of the european network for solidarity with ukraine. born and raised in donetsk, eastern ukraine, and speaks both russian and ukrainian. let's begin with you. you are in moscow doing your academic studies by before russia invaded ukraine and you grew up in donetsk the occupied region of ukraine where this vote just took place that the vast majority of the countries in the world just condemned at

the united nations. can you talk about the significance of both? what was it like to grow up there? what do you understand about that vote? and to be in russia ght before the invasion? >> ok. thank you for having me. i difficult question but being in ukraine, born in donetsk and having all my family there actually not just this year but eight years ago, mend my circle of friends and family were affected by t war when russia started in 2014. being in moscow just before -- i s there for my academic research. academic research is a g part of it is about russian imperial

and national ideology. so being a historian and working on russian contemporary imperialism and fro the district perspective, i was more prepared i think for the invasion than most of the people who were kind of very surprised by it. nermeen: hanna, you've talked about some of the reasons you think putin launched an invasion of this scale. you have also argued that we need to take into account the national and imperial dimension of the relationship between russia and ukraine and that the resistance of the ukrainians are putting up is most analogous to anticolonial struggles. could you elaborate on that and explain the reasons that you think russia launched its

invasion? >> well, yes. for me, one of thdimensions of russian contemporary imperialist ideology is that it is driven by thsit up in a fallen empire i what is important by -- actually, the national narrative of ukraine and that of russia offering kin of a contradiction. you can can only survive outside of russia because russia denies its right to exist. while russian nationalists ite, incomplete of not impossible without ukraine within it. so these two narratives are kind of mutually exclusive. kind of nationalizing empires

like russia, today's russia are very dangerous because in the current russian perspective, ukrainians must recognize their russian otherwise they must be destroyed -- they are russian. otherwise, they must be destroyed. say in bates and other independent state recognizes war crimes at a huge scale and for the same time, practices tt can be quantified as an invitation to genocide because there are numerous -- when children are separated from the ukrainian families and adopted there. i want to emphasize of course it is important, but cannot fully explain the reason of this

invasion. because history is a source of discourses and practices, but in order to influence the reality, these curses must be reactivated. the invasion of ukraine is not some sort of historical inertia, the idea of putin is a product of the past two centuries. but putin's political regime that reactivates these ideas is a product of the last 20, 30 years. nermeen: arshak makichyan , you fled russia earlier this year very soon after the invasion. could you explain why you left and with the state of opposition to this war in russia now is? and respond to what hanna said. >> before this where we were

living -- i was doing activism in russia. after the war, we were trying to organize protests. we were protesting every day, every weekend but now russia is not -- now it is a dictatorship. our instruments, peaceful protests, they are not working anymore in russia. what to do next. now you cannot have a revolution in russia, a peaceful protest. propaganda in russia is working very well and they are using a lot of money from the world coming from fossil fuels and now they're earning more money than before the war on fossil fuels and using this money to place people's opinions -- using this money to continue this war. so yeah posted peaceful protests

are not working anymore in russia. i think i can be more effective using my social media, using my voice to speak up against the war when i'm not in a prison or tortured like many my friends are being now who are still in russia. it was a difficult decision. it is not because i am afraid. it i is not about being afraid. we want to be affected. russian society needs representation. russian people want to have a place in the future. otherwise, russian propaganda is using this against ukrainians, using it to mobilize people for the war. i think the russian people, they are not supporting the war. they do not want to die for putin's imperialistic ambition. they want to take their normal lives back. i am trying to raise my voice and represent russian society. yes, putin is a terrorist.

this war was a terrible thing. russian state is a terrorist state. i agree with that. but we need to think for solutions. negotiations -- is wrong to have an aggression with people like putin. we need to start a dialogue with russian civil society because it is part of the solution. i do understand fascism is bad. we are trying to create ways to oppose putin. there's an antiwar movement in russia. we need to talk about it i think. amy: i want to ask hanna perekhoda, as you speak to us from switzerland, born and raised in donbas, studied

in moscow just before the invasion. you talk about an order for conditions of peace to be achieved, russia has got to withdraw from ukraine. you also advocate the dissolution not only of nato, but also the russian-dominated military alliance. can you talk about this and how your anti-peerless views have changed -- anti-imperialist views have changed or not to this invasion and occupation of russia by ukrai? >> ok, well, this is a very complex question. i think i would go more or less the same direction as the previous speaker. i think there is a kind of -- i position on imperialism was provoked and by thinking aut

it was provoked by a stereotype, which i heard a lot in the western countries in the last years. stereotypes that say this war started because putin was scared by nato or because he was humiliated by the west. in my opinion, it is quite the opposite. he started the war when nato was weak and he felt like everyone would let him do it because it was always the case until now. he knows the rich countries dependent on fossil fuels, on oil and gas, that these countries continue to play with him for years when he was already killing to sheehan or syrians and even -- chechen ends

syrians and even when he started a war in ukraine eight years ago. nothing changed fundamentally. so yes i agree with by previous speaker and it is something i want to emphasize every time i speak. the keywords for me is impunity and economic cynicism of the global north, the rich within countries and western countries. and i think when we talk about this war, we tend to overestimate the expense which the behavior of -- real security concerns. yes, stereotes on ukraine and attempt to preserve security, but it is not the security of russia ty preserve there preserving the security of their political regime and

ignore the difference between the two means we forget that russia is not putin. want to say the same thing the previous speaker, russian ordinary people and their interests are exactly on the opposite to the interests of putin and his mafia. i mean, disregard russia's internal politics, the relations between the ruling classes in society of this country, if we adopt this kind of geopolitical perspecte, which i had also before, we won't be able to understand war anything about this war. i think this war showed me and a lot of people around me that it is not so much about ukraine, it is about russian imperial relationships between elites and people. it is about russian elites

trying to preserve the regime, the regime that allows them to plunder russia in total impunity for years. yes, putin's regime needed a real war because without it would stabilize its crumbling power. for me, the change meant in the perception how to think about the imperialism is to be able to understand what are the internal reasons, what is happening inside of russia. because if we adopt a geopolitical perspective, a lazy way to analyze the world and it doesn't work. nermeen: arshak, could you respond to what she said, in particular the feelings of and perception of ordinary russians, vis-à-vis the putin regime, you

both talked about the mass mobilization, the conscription taking place now of russians, 100 thousands of them have fled and many who have spoken to the media, though they have not revealed their names out of fear for their safety as well as the safety of their families still in russia, they have said things like how can i take part in a war without a wish to win the war? this is a war of the russian government, not the russian people. and someone. comments like this. so your sense of ordinary russians are feeling now and their sense of the putin regime? >> russian ordinary people are doing more because they are left -- there left alone with dictatorships and police. the police are financed by europe, by fossil fuel money. we need to help them to escape

the war. it is very strange for me when you are being congress shutting down the borders for people who are trying to escape from mobilization because these people would be able to escape the mobilization then they want to be taken part in the war. of course, they can be more brave and fight putin with bare hands, but it is not possible to fight a police state. putin has millions of police. it is not easy to have a revolution. you cannot just go to the kremlin with your bare hands and have a revolution. not so easy to have a revolution in dictatorship. independent media -- amy: 10 seconds. we have 10 seconds. if you could finish her statement. >> yes.

russian people don't support the war. they are afraid to oppose the war i think. amy: arshak makichyan, thank you for being with us, her own citizenship in russia is threatened to be revoked, exiled russian anti-war, human rights

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