people killed were trying to escape prison. and as they were trying to escape, they stepped on mines around the prison. so what you heard was not the sound of -- well, it was the sound of explosions resulting from the mines they had stepped on. and it is really tragic to hear that because the government in a way is admitting that inside the city, inside the prison, they have planted mines. and this is a serious offense. the iranian government should be made answerable. they are not allowed to put

mines anywhere. so the real reason is still not clear, nor is the number of those killed so far. however, there are a number of prisoners that no one has heard from since and no one has been able to contact them or have meetings with them. we have heard that there women's ward for political prisoners, they are ok. nothing has happened to them. however, in the men's section, there are some prisoners, political prisoners we have not heard from and we are extremely worried about them. we don't know whether they have been killed, whether they are injured, if they are injured which hospitals they are in. why don't we know or what has happened to them?

nermeen: dr. ebadi, you yourself were imprisoned at evin as was your husband. when exactly was that? could you talk about with the conditions in the prison were? and if or whether and how conditions in the prison changed over the years as you continued to represent people detained there? >> it was about 1999 when i was imprisoned in evin. while i was there, i was put in solitary confinement. solitary confinement is a very, very small, narrow room without a bed or chair. they just gave us a dirty

blanket and not a pillow or anything to sleep on. so i had to sleep on the floor without a pillow. and as a result, i have had health problems since. they take everything away from us. they took my watch. even my reading glasses. we are completely isolated in solitary confinement. we have no opportunity to speak to anybody, including our lawyers. i can say the situation has not changed. it is still the same. all those who are prisoners of conscience were arrested, they have to experience solitary confinement for a while because in solitary confinement, they can put psychological pressure on the prisoner and make them

confess, make false professions. unfortunately, these prisoners are subjected to the most gruesome tortures in all iran's prisons, including evin. and i am sure you are aware that several prisoners died of torture, including a young worker. a few years ago, he died. he was under torture. unfortunately, every year, we have one or two political prisoners who die under torture. amy: dr. ebadi, do you think president trump pulling the u.s. out of the iran nuclear cord for the radicalized the regime by

isolating it further with increased sanctions? i am wondering what you think they u.s. policy should be today? >> i am going to answer your question this way. before iran was not under any sanctions for three years after the signing of jcpoa before trump pulled out of jcpoa. in the three years that there were no sanctions on iran, there were no improvements in a running people's welfare situation. so it makes no difference for the economic situations whether or not the united states is a party to the jcpoa or not or whether or not there have been

sanctions on iran. however, if they do lift sanctions against iran, be sure iran does not spit any of its money on the people. what is it spend its money on? on lebanon, hezbollah, yemen, or bashar al-assad's regime or more recently, it has been helping russia to kill the ukrainian people. the iranian people's welfare and well-being means nothing to the islamic republic regime. nermeen: dr. ebadi, on evin prison, one of the people who has been held there now for years is some you worked very

closely with, the iranian human rights lawyer. she was also your lawyer for a time. can you talk about what you know of her situation today? she was previously awarded the right livelihood award as well as another prize. she was initially in prison for 38 years but her sentence was reduced. >> she is a human rights lawyer and a colleague of mine. she ends up in prison and she has been meted out along prison sentence for human rights

prisoners. she has been held in prison. fortunately, thanks to the doctors, they have allowed her to come on leave to receive some treatment. working for human rights and defending the rights of people in iranian court is considered a crime these days. the human rights lawyers who end up in prison are charged with allegations such as you must be against the government, otherwise you would not be defending people who are antigovernment. and i have said on many occasions, look, they are defending a thief does not mean we are complicit in the act of theft step so why do you arrest a lawyer who is defending human

rights activists and accuse him of being complicit with such people, with the opposition. that is why many political activists, whether they are lawyers or not lawyers, they end up in prison. i have to remind you, we have very well-known film directors imprisoned. the situation in iran, anyone who's has a word against the government or makes a documentary or film about the government or rights against the government will, without a doubt, and up behind bars. amy: running activist and lawyer -- iranian activist and lawyer dr. shirin ebadi. when we come back, we ask her about the iranian president, the

protesters demand for regime change, violence of security forces throughout the country, including iran's curtis 10 region which is where 22-year-old mahsa amini was from, killed by the so-called morality police, sparking nationwide protests. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we continue our conversation with iranian activist and lawyer and 2003 nobel peace prize laureate dr. shirin ebadi. she writes in her book "until we are free, i received the nobel peace prize in october 2003 for my efforts for democracy and human rights and know you would think this would have propelled my work in iran, it put me under even more pressure and scrutiny by the government. the iranian state did everything it could to suppress the new semi ward, forbidding the state radio and tv stations to so much

as mention it and putting the under even more severe news embargo. when a reporter asked a reformist who was in power at the time why he had not congratulated me, he responded, this isn't such an important prize, it is only the nobel in literature that really matters." that is dr. shirin ebadi. she was the female judge in first iran. she has lived in exile since 2009. we spoke with her on wednesday. nermeen: to go back to what you're talking about the protests, these are different from the protests that erupted in iran over the course of the last more than 40 years since the revolution. could you explain -- the one that received an enormous amount of coverage here was the 2009 green movement when millions of people turned out on the streets.

the protest lasted for seven months. and even then the regime response, the government response was quite brutal. how do you see this protest different from that one? and do you think this will endure given how brutal and violent the government response has been? >> look, and the previous protests, like the one in 2009, people had specific demand. in 2009, they were protesting against a rigged election. there were saying, what happened to my vote? but now the demand is different and the demand is a political one. they want regime change. and they have all taken to the

street. and they are all chanting, "we want regime change." one of the fundamental differences between these protests and previous ones. and the people are resisting a lot better than before. there prisons are full. many have been killed. many have been injured. because the prisons are overcrowded, the regime is even using a horse stadium as prisons. i somehow doubt very much that the government will again be able to repress the people. i think the people will succeed. as i said, even schoolchildren can no longer tolerate this.

they have refused to go to their classes. and they have taken to the streets. you see generations next to each other. you see children, parents, grandparent protesting together on the streets. and let's assume the government manages to repress the people by intensifying their crackdown. i promise you, in very, very short time there will be yet another protest in iran. in fact, iran is like a powder keg about to explode. they may be able to try -- it is a fire. it is a fire that is about to

become bigger and bigger. so there is nothing that government can do. amy: dr. ebadi, if you can talk about the marginalized regions. for example, the violence of security forces in iran, curtis dan, mahsa amini, the young woman who was a flashpoint in these protests, was 22 years old, and iranian kurdish woman, killed in tehran. and also the systemic killing of other protesters, what is the status of the minority? mostly suni and a majority shia state. >> unfortunately, the minorities in iran are subjected to extreme

discrimination. when you look at people on death row in iran, you will see 95% of those on death row are from minorities in iran. the government represses them more than others. mahsa amini, in her birth certificate, her parents wanted to call her a kurdish name but the government did not allow that because they said you're not allowed to choose a kurdish name, yet you choose a persian name for your child. this is real repression. mahsa amini was a young girl and had come to tehran just as a

tourist in to visit a few of her relatives. she was on the street with her brother when the morality police, under the pretext her headscarf was not covering her whole head, arrested her and they took her to a detention center. unfortunately, a few hours later, an angel and's left the -- ambulance lefty detention center which was carrying her corpse. the doctors and the hospital said when she arrived in the hospital she had suffered from a concussion and there was nothing we could do about it. and the pictures they took of mahsa in hospital, when you can see her with drips and serums

attached to her, you can see clearly there is blood coming out of her ears in those pictures, which is a clear sign she was concussed. and she was clearly -- she had fallen into coma and started bleeding. but since this government never tells the truth, they said she was already sick, she had underlying diseases, and she had died from there and that made the people even angrier. now elsewhere, commander of the police force raped a 15-year-old girl. they took the case to court and did not get anywhere.

people became very angry. so the people, especially the young people, they decided to take to the streets after friday prayers and chant against that commander who had raped this young girl. and the friday prayers had just ended, some 20 to 30 youth, started chanting against the whole regime that is a norm justice and is not bringing this commander to book. and since the police knew this was going to happen, they were ready for the protesters and they started gunning down the protesters. even those who had just left the

mosque and were not part of the protests, many of them were also killed. i number of those killed, as far as we know, over 95 have been killed. and these are the ones we know because we have their names and their identity papers. and many have been injured and are still in hospital and we are still waiting to see whether they will recover or whether they will die in hospital. nermeen: dr. ebadi, you mentioned earlier the protesters are calling for a change in the regime. how do you understand what that means? your response, for instance, to the present head of state recy whom amnesty international has said there is credible evidence

of his involvement in crimes against humanity? if you could talk about his record and whether you think the repression his administration has carried out has something to do with the force of these protests? >> of course, there is no doubt raisi in the 1980's played a big part in the killing of political prisoners. there is no doubt about that. however, to say protests this time are even more powerful than before, it is not just because of raisi. it is because of the anger that is boiling over. and for 43 years, people have

bottled up all of this anger. and for 43 years, the regime has turned a deaf ear to the demands of the people. and anyone who said anything against the regime has either ended up in prison or killed or has fled the country. there has been a huge brain dra in. we have lost many educated people. they don't want to leave iran but they had to. it is a collection of all these issues that led to these recent protests and where people are calling for regime change. and allow me to add, what the people want is a democratic and secular government.

that is what they want. because for 43 years, they have suffered a theocracy and they know what that is light. they no longer want to tolerate a theocracy, they wanted democracy and they what secularism. nermeen: could you talk about the fate of precisely the supreme leader who reportedly is very ill but is grooming his son to be his successor? could you explain the significance of that, the role the supreme leader plays and what impact these protests may have? >> he has been reportedly ill for a very, very long time yet we still see him giving speeches.

describing these protests to the enemy. if khomeini dies, i cannot imagine we will have another -- because the situation in iran is far worse than ever and they will not allow any other cleric to take over and continue this despotic theocracy. one of the chants that you hear is -- some of the slogans chanted these days are against the son of khomeini. so the people are chanting

slogans to ensure that he does not take over most of but i really don't think if khomeini dies that will be any successor. amy: how do you exactly see, dr. ebadi, this uprising playing out? >> it is still too early to predict what these protests are going to lead to. but one thing i can tell you for sure, nothing will ever be the same in iran after these protests. because the situation has already changed a lot since before the protest. but as to how the future will be, it is still premature to make any predictions. nermeen: finally, dr. shirin ebadi, what do you hope will

come out of these protests? >> my hope is the victory of the people. my hope is that we have the stage of referendum and the auspices of the united nations so that the people freely choose the government they want and the representatives. this is iran my wish for the people of iran. amy: iranian activist and lawyer dr. shirin ebadi, the first female female judge in iran. received the first nobel prize, first iranian and muslim woman to win the nobel peace prize. and this breaking news, the british prime minister liz truss is resigning. she is the shortest serving prime minister in u.k. history.

the move comes less than a week after she fired her chancellor. she sought to blame him for the recent tory budget which slashed taxes and caused the pound to plummet. this comes as the u.k. is facing record inflation and a surging cost of living, which have spurred mass protests. the daily star had a livestream called can liz truss outlast let us? after just 45 days, the lettus h as won. that does it for our show. democracy now! is currently accepting applications for a video news production fellow and a people and culture manager. learn more and apply at democracynow.org. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]