pppxxxx■]■t■]■o ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ olivia purdie: hi, i'm olivia, and i am 11 years old. i am non-binary which means i have no gender. i am just me. riley mclean: my name is riley. i don't identify as male or female but i'm not in the middle either. i don't identify on the gender binary. i'm just me. dakota dunlap: i'm dakota. people often ask if i'm a boy or a girl.

i'm neither. i'm off the gender spectrum. audrey mason-hyde: hi, i'm audrey. i'm gender non-binary and queer and i wanna change the world. riley: tonight on "four corners" we take you into the lives of people like me, people who don't conform to gender norms. and i ask, why does it matter to you if i don't identify as a boy or a girl? ♪♪♪ olivia: well, the world basically evolves around boxes and those two boxes are a male box and a female box.

and if you are born with a female body you have to be a female. if you are born with a male body you have to be a male and you've been put into that box. and they try to, like--people may try to duct-tape you, duct-tape the box so then you'll stay like that. but i cut the duct-tape and i jumped into my own box. jane russo: two years ago, olivia was diagnosed with gender dysphoria and has now been assessed as not being on the binary and does not identify as either boy or girl. jane: just watch your fingers. jane: it's hard to know when olivia started changing in the sense of--or not changing, but questioning identity, which i remember us having a conversation when you were five

or six, olivia. i think it was five or six. you were saying to me, "mommy, i don't think i'm a girl." and i said, "what do you mean?" and you said--that won't cut through that, olivia. i'll give you a small bit. there you go. swap, do that. i said, "what do you mean?" and you said, "i don't fit in this body." and then you said to me, "i therefore must be a boy because i don't feel like i'm a girl." so olivia, you didn't wanna be a boy, did you? olivia: no. jane: well, at first you did, i thought? olivia: yeah, but i don't wanna be one. jane: i know now but when you were that age, why did i think you thought you might wanna be a boy? olivia: probably because i only knew two genders. jane: it's not something you take lightly. if i had a choice, maybe it would be easier not to have a child that's non-binary or gender diverse. at the end of the day, it's not something i asked for, it's not something i wanted, but it's what olivia is.

jane: two years ago, we went to the gp and talked to the gp who didn't know anything really about what to do next and referred us to the women's and children's hospital. georgie swift: fantastic, olivia, yeah, of course. olivia: i have another one, which-- georgie: olivia, one of the young people that i see, identifies as non-binary. the assessment of a young person who's non-binary is extremely rigorous. it's really important that i gain a really good understanding of the whole of this young person's life and their functioning and their identity and where that fits in to their life for them. georgie: come this way, guys. how are you? georgie: i've got 65 clients open to me at the moment and 9 of them identify as non-binary. one way of describing being non-binary is neither male nor female or neither woman nor man. georgie: just round to the left here today, everyone. georgie: so some people describe that as agender or no gender. other people describe to me that they feel both male and female

and that the, i guess, degree of male or female-ness may vary on any day, and that that may be reflected in their gender expression. georgie: so you had to go to school for half the day today, olivia? olivia: yeah. georgie: i think it's really important to ask the young person themself what being non-binary means for them because in my experience it can be different for different young people. olivia: in term 1 i did tell someone. they were also new and i think she still, like, remembers, like, she asked me since everyone thought i, like, was transgender and she actually came up and asked me. and i told her no and i told her i was actually non-binary. georgie: i get asked quite a lot about why we are seeing so many more gender diverse and in particular non-binary young people coming out now.

i don't think it's a new identity or a new type of being a person. i think non-binary people have existed for as long as we have. but that up until more recentlye for it. olivia: i'll do that whenever i can. janeand we're still working hard with our grandparents and things, aren't we? and your friends around, i guess, different situations. georgie: and the people that you've told, are they getting it right or make-- georgie: for olivia, olivia's pronoun is olivia. there are no pronouns in our language that fit for olivia. so olivia entifies as olivia not as they/them, she/her, or he/him, as olivia. and this has been quite challenging for olivia's family and peers to get their head around. georgie: i wonder how it's going for you in terms of people using olivia rather than pronouns? olivia: so-- jane: be nice to me, please. georgie: and remember before maybe you answer, that what i always say to young people i see, olivia, it's easier for me

because i meet you and i say, "what name should i be using and what pronoun should i be using?" and for you it's olivia and olivia, and--but mom and dad have known you for a long time with a pronoun rather than olivia. if they're trying, cut them a bit of slack 'cause it is hard to change. so with that caveat, now you can answer. olivia: well, mom's doing, like, better. you're getting better. jane: am i? good, thanks. olivia: and my nanny is really good. georgie: wow, is that mom's mom or dad's mom? olivia: mom's mom. georgie: so nanny's doing really well. olivia: yeah, my mom's side are probably doing the bester than my dad's side. georgie: and what about dad? how's dad going with it? olivia: he doesn't talk much so i don't know. georgie: dad's the quieter one. justin purdie: i'm the quieter one. justin: as parents, jane and i weren't too surprised, i don't think, that olivia was on the gender spectrum. don't thk we quite knew what the gender spectrum was but we knew that olivia was not conventional.

olivia: they have boy words and, like, girl words. georgie: of course, yeah. justin: there's lots of questions and in my work, i'm quite analytical and i wanna analyze things and look at pathways and try and find the solution. and there's no nice clear-cut solution. so in many respects you do just have to roll with it. i do worry what the future holds but if i feel that if olivia was to try and live as a girl or as a boy that olivia wouldn't be true to olivia. olivia: i told her to just call me by my name but, like, i guess she sort of ignored that part, like, she did-- georgie: having a child come out as gender diverse is often quite confronting and challenging for the parent. and a number of parents i see would've never even heard the word "non-binary" before their children tells them that "this is how it is for me." jane: nana's been very protective of you because nana

doesn't want people to think, you know, differently about you. you're still olivia, like we keep on saying. yes, you might look a little bit different. georgie: and how do you feel when they don't get it right, olivia? georgie: gender dysphoria is the distress that a person experiences when their birth-assigned gender does not match their gender identity. for some people, it's intense distress, dislike around their body, so many young people i see are unable to look at their body, can't look in the mirror when in the bathroom, for example. some people, showering is incredibly difficult. it's not uncommon for young people i see to avoid having showers or to shower with their underwear on. commonly, their genitals, their chest area, sometimes their face, are areas of significant distress and dysphoria. i have seen a four-year-old who got a pair of scissors to try to

cut her penis off. i have seen young people who have cut their breasts. olivia: it's very obvious that you're different. though it doesn't need to be obvious that you're different, you just need to be accepted. georgie: any questions, olivia, before we begin? ♪♪♪ audrey: i wonder what you first think when you see me. perhaps it's something about my curls; people often mention them. or "what a dapper little man." in my experience, one of the first things people do is assume i'm a boy or aren't sure whether i'm a girl or a boy. we do this to everyone. my style had to evolve. audrey: being non-binary is not a choice, man. oh gosh. it's this really innate feeling you have for a very long time

and you don't know what to do with it 'cause no-one's told you what to do with it. you just know that you're not either of the things everyone's told you to be. and so you know you're questioning in your head, like, "what am i then?" and that feeling, like, in a ten-year-old, the feeling of "what am i?" that is not a choice. audrey: i didn't think of myself as a boy but anything that was identified as female felt uncomfortable to me. audrey: so many people come up to me after and go, "oh, that was a great talk. my child's a bit like you. you know, i just never would have thought to question their gender identity before. like, i'm gonna go talk to them about it and see how they're feeling." audrey: recently, when i traveled overseas, i noticed-- audrey: and it was just this moment of absolute affirmation that i'd done the right thing by doing this talk, that i was completely valid and accepted as a human, and that there was nothing wrong with me.

audrey: because i seem like a very flamboyant or even girly boy--anyway-- sophie hyde: bryan and i were way more nervous than audrey and i think we thought there may be some backlash even amongst that audience. audrey: i'm audrey and if we're talking biology, i'm female, but i feel that it's more complex than that. sophie: audrey, i think, has an ability to talk abougender in a way that's very personal. it's vy much talking about their experience. and so it's very hard to attack someone's owexperience, i think. audrey: so strangers sit uncomfortably while i tell you how my gender ranges from day to day. sometimes neutral. sometimes fluid. sometimes gentle. sometimes fierce. it doesn't make me a boy but it doesn't mean that i'm realigning and i don't want to be redefining what it means to be a girl because i'm not a girl. so it does matter to me.

audrey: we have to write a comedy script for english that uses comedy devices so double entendre. sophie: [laughing] audrey: i know, i know, absurdity. bryan mason: when people ask me how old audrey is i always say audrey's 14 going on 35. audrey's kind of an older soul inside a younger body, i think. like, they're quite emotionally stable and calm and together which is funny when audrey has teenage moments because, of course, audrey's a 14-year-old person so there are 14-year-old moments. audrey: they just readily say it into your microphone and en hear the recording. audrey: it's not expression. it's not about "i don't wanna wear dresses." i mean, i don't wanna wear dresses personally, but that's not part of my identity. my identity is purely that i have this innate feeling which

is i am not a girl and i'm not a boy so i must be something else. audrey: they want flip-flops. bryan: that sounded terribly-- audrey: i'm sorry, i can't do a french accent. bryan: a bit of a learning curve, i guess, from my point of view. i was like, "well, what does that mean, necessarily? like, what, does that mean you can be a boy or a girl, or you're not a girl or you're not a boy?" and just kind of navigating all of that territory and figuring out what that means for audrey in particular, 'cause now i understand that everyone kind of identifies differently even within that kind of non-binary space. audrey: and so they faint. they faint with a "hoh, hoh, hoh." sophie: wow. sophie: there was a period when audrey first started to reject the idea of being a girl, or being a woman, where i felt confronted because i'd been raised as a feminist. i'd been raised to believe that my maleness was not a limitation, s something that i could--that would never stop me from doing anything in the world.

and that i should, in fact--i could, in fact, choose to be whoever i wanted to be and still be a woman. d i wanted to express that to audrey. that, in fact, you can look however you want, you can behave however you want, you don't have to reject being female. now audrey's taught me a lot about gender and about those ideas and audrey has a very strong belief that your female body does not make you a woman. audrey: piece of writing/work. bryan: ah, i think they're here. audrey: hi, come in! nice to see you again. olivia: hi, audrey. audrey: hi, how are you? olivia: 'kay, good. audrey: that's good. come through. audrey: olivia and i went to the same primary school and i'm three years older.

audrey: have a seat if you like. so how are you? how's school? olivia: all right. i just moved schools 'cause i'm in year 5. audrey: my school's a lot bigger now and so there's a lot more people like me. is that the same for you? olivia: yeah, there's a whole lot--there's lots of--it's like, my school's way bigger but i don't even know anyone else who is like me there. audrey: oh, yeah right, okay. is there, like, an lgbt club at your school now? olivia: no. audrey: no, nothing? olivia: nothing, really. audrey: gosh. olivia: at primary school i never told my teachers, really. it was only the principal who, like, half knew but didn't really know because they sort of, like--he ignored it sort of. he ignored the fact. audrey: how's, like, bathrooms at your school 'cause-- olivia: i get to go to the unisex/handicap bathroom, so. audrey: yeah, and the teachers, like, let you do that? so i generally just go to the female toilets which sucks but

they're close to my classes so that's good, i suppose. but, yeah, i mean, i really don't like them. i don't like the toilets at my school. and i'm trying to get it changed but it's not gonna happen very soon, i don't think. it kind of sucks. you know you go in and you just don't want anyone to see you in there or if they do you want it to be a friend so that, like, someone recognizes you so that the other people who are strangers to you in the bathroom don't go, "oh, that's a girl or a boy," 'cause that's not comfortable. olivia: that's their perception. audrey: man, bathrooms. not fun. olivia: i mean, i have the argument, "at home, do you have a female bathroom? do you have a male bathroom? no, you just have the one bathroom so why isn't that in public?" audrey: yeah, yeah, it doesn't make sense. a lot of people get scared about, like, gender diverse

people going in bathrooms or trans people. to be honest, i don't get it. i mean, it just doesn't seem right. they're still people and if they identify as that gender, like, i'm not gonna go look over your stalls at your, like, kid going to the loo. i'm just not going to. that's not what i'm in there for. olivia: no, you just wanna mind your own business. audrey: my school's a lot bigger now, and so there's a lot more people like me. riley: everything changed for me when i was 19, was when i first started to think about it. i started to kind of realize, okay, i'm not a girl, i'm not a woman, i'm not a man, what am i? and it's been a really challenging journey working this out because it would be so much easier to just say, "all right, i'll just be a man. just flip from one side to the other," because the world is so

binary and everyone wants to fit you in a box. and even, like, i want to fit myself in a box because that's how we're raised to think, that's how society works. so the idea of being something that wasn't male or female was very, very difficult to wrap my head around and obviously difficult for everyone around me. and it's still something i'm coming to terms with and i'm learningore about myself all the time. riley: i started the theater company when i was 19. theater is a way of showing the world who you are. i would say that theater does enable me to be more comfortable

in my gender identity. everyone in this industry is very open about that kind of thing. i was a big musical theater kid. i always had lead roles in the musicals and i was always playing the female roles. i played patrice in "thirteen the musical," i played dorothy in "the wizard of oz." i played the narrator in "joseph and the amazing technicolor dreamcoat." oh, my biggest one was kate in "avenue q." it often felt odd to be playing overt feminine characters even back then when i didn't know my own identity. it caused me so much anxiety. riley: ♪ i said what time are you playing? ♪ ♪ thank you for the extra skim ♪ ♪ he said, "keep the $3.55," because this triple latte ♪ ♪ was on him ♪

riley: i remember once i was playing a role and they had to get me to strut and i just started crying because i was like, "i can't do this. i don't--that's not my body," and it was very, very upsetting. ♪♪♪ riley: i think, yeah, it's always been in the back of my mind that that was just not me. that wasn't who i was because there was always so much missing and i just didn't understand what was going on. i just thought i was a very sad person. riley: [singing] tram service: the next service is all stops to newcastle beach. dakota: when i was 13 or 14 i changed my name because i didn't feel like the one that i was given was right for me.

i would hear people call me by that name and sometimes i wouldn't even respond because it just didn't click in my head like my name does now. dakota: when i started coming out, i originally wanted to keep it on a very down-low level because i was being bullied a lot for who i was and i didn't really wanna deal with that. it was mostly in high school. i would be called names all the time. people would talk about me behind my back constantly. and like, i've been shoved around before. a lot of people wanna be fitting into this box and i was so far out of that box that i didn't know where else to turn to. dakota: so all throughout my journey when i started thinking about who i was, i have definitely gone to some very

dark places and it got to a point where, you know, self-harm was in the picture, suicide thoughts were in the picture. and i finally figured out, like, you know, maybe i'm not safe and maybe i do need to say something to someone. a couple of things that helped me were just finding people who were like me. obviously, i'm not gna find my exact carbon copy but i found people who are also non-binary. dakota: do you wanna do, like, three in the corners like that? riley: yeah. dakota: like that. riley: so we are making a cake for the after-party tonight. we're trying to decorate it so that it looks a bit more bearfoot-themed and this is our little logo which is a green bear paw print because we're going to have an opening night party in the foyer with the audience to celebrate. we've been friends for about seven years.

dakota was a lot younger than me at school. riley: dakota is an absolute trailblazer and i owe a lot of my identity to the fact that they could come out first and they were there being that representation 'cause if i hadn't seen that representation growing up, i still might not even identify this way 'cause it wasn't something that i would have understood or even knew existed. dakota: if you stack them up enough, you'll get a-- riley: that's true. riley: dakota came out as non-binary many, many years before i did. and growing up, they had such a hard time even in the theater industry because they were ahead of their time and not many people in newcastle understood that at all. dakota: ♪ why don't you paint the town ♪ ♪ and all that jazz ♪ riley: and i remember people would say things like, you know, "oh, what gender are they today?" and just be really awful about it. and i remember that and i remembered being scared to

identify that way because of how hard it had been for dakota. i remember thinking, oh, everyone was so awful about that. and i know that so many opinions have changed since then and all the people who probably said stuff like that back then are very on and accepting now. jane: the waitlist at the women's and children's hospital for kids like olivia has blown out to 12-18 months and this is very distressing both to families and the children. jane: it's concerning because waiting is probably the biggest

fear that these kids have as their bodies start changing. jemma anderson: do you wanna sit down? do you wanna take your shoes off? i'm gonna do your height and your weight first. jane: part of olivia's questioning about olivia's self was about some of olivia's physical appearance. olivia didn't like what was happening and i think part of it was saying, "well, i don't wanna have breasts." and a lot of young people say that but olivia felt that breasts weren't part of olivia's body. jemma: looking straight ahead. 156.5. i think you've stopped growing. jemma: olivia is currently receiving puberty blockers and this was after a very long and considered process with extensive and in-depth psychiatric evaluation for both olivia and her family. jemma: well done. if i can get you to lie down. georgie: this is medication that's given to olivia in the form of an injection every 12 weeks so that olivia doesn't go through the puberty of olivia's assigned birth gender.

there are two main reasons for offering puberty suppression to a young person who is gender diverse or who has gender dysphoria, is to decrease the distress associated with the gender dysphoria while they have the time to continue to grow up a bit. jemma: so you've got the kids that have sort of settled there but plenty of-- jemma: so the benefit of a puberty blocker is that it gives a young person time to explore how they express their gender identity. they--when you stop taking ato puberty blocker, the effects are generally reversible. jemma: and how are you feeling now that you're on the injections 'cause it's been a little while now? olivia: i'm less anxious about my body. jemma: so you're just feeling more relaxed, more yourself? that's good. jane: i think we've had three injection so far? this will be the fourth? i think so. olivia: the injections take a long time and sting.

but i'm just happy that i get them, because i can just be me and i don't have to worry about my body. jemma: so it sounds like it's the right thing for you at the moment. jane: yup. jemma: i think that once you've met a young person who's gender diverse, and you can see how they're so articulate about how they identify themselves and they've gone through such a process really to get to me. you see them at their follow-up appointment after starting treatment and they're calm, they're feeling so much more settled in themselves, that you know you're doing the right thing for that person. jemma: that's important 'cause it's your body. jane: we were informed about the risks of olivia going on puberty blockers and that being about reduced bone density, but we believed that this was a low risk against olivia's mental health and wellbeing. jemma: i guess the next important thing is that we look at how your bones are going and make sure they're staying nice

and healthy. jane: i booked in that-- georgie: all medication has side effects and risks, and puberty suppression is no different. the biggest ongoing risk with puberty suppression, the potential for a lower bo density as you grow up and therefore a higher risk of osteoporosis in adulthood. the pediatricians who prescribe the lupron do monitor that and we're aware if it becoming more of an issue for a particularly young person. so there are some concerns about a young person staying on puberty suppression for a long period of time. jemma: open your mouth, stick out your tongue, and say, "ahh." olivia: ahh. jemma: there is some criticism around the treatment of gender diverse young people. from a pediatric or pediatrician's point of view, we wanna be doing everything that we can to support a young person so that they don't have adverse mental health outcomes, that they're able to live the life as they choose without harming anyone else. olivia: i don't know what type of puberty i want or i don't

really know what i want with my body. like, i don't want female puberty but i also don't want, like, male puberty. i just wanna be me. jane: how are you feeling about an injection tomorrow? olivia: okay. i'm only 11 and i'll probably be coming off the blockers when i'm 16. i have five years to think about this. there's no rush with this. no point in rushing anyway. jane: as a parent, you're very mindful of what your kid needs. and in this case puberty blockers was something we believed olivia needed. this is a decision that parents make very carefully, with clinicians, with doctors who know best, and we are guided through this carefully. it's not an easy decision, it's not made lightly, and it's done