♪ >> hello, this is al jazeera and these are the headlines. former war crimes prosecutor jack smith has been appointed as a special counsel to lead investigations into donald trump. it includes his handling of pacified documents. trump says he will not be cooperating. we have more from washington dc. >> who is a jack smith? up until this announcement, he worked as a war crime prosecutor at the international penal court at the -- he is d.c. bound or he

has about three decades of experience working in the u.s. capitol. he led the department of justice's, integrity section in the 2010s, gaining high-profile convictions of corrupt politicians who were republican and democrat. >> the first train to newly liberated kherson, has left ukraine's capital restoring the two cities. the journey is been called the train to victory and will arrive in the regional capital. workers have repaired it damage it tracks which were vandalized by russian forces. kyiv is preparing for rolling blackouts this winter. as pressure continues to target ukraine's energy facilities. the prime minister says almost half of its energy system has been disabled. poll have opened in malaysia as general elections. voters are choosing from 945 candidates. it's the tightest since. independence in 19 to of the.

seventhey -- in 1957. an airplane has caught fire after hitting a fire truck. on the runway at peru's international airport. two firefighters were killed on the airtime plane crashed into a truck. no credit -- passengers or crew were injured. kenya's former president and rwanda's leader have agreed on the need for fighters to withdraw from capture territory in the eastern democratic republic of congo. they visited the drc earlier this week as facilitator of the eastern african led talks. elon musk has summoned the company's software engineers to face-to-face meetings. it follows reports that hundreds of staff have quit in the offices have been closed until monday. those are the headlines. i will have more news on al jazeera after inside story. do stay with us. ♪

>> guilty of murder to russians and ukrainian are convicted for their role in the downing of malaysia airline over eastern ukraine in 2014. has justice been served and can the case at a president for legal action over russia's invasion of ukraine? this is inside story. ♪ >> hello and welcome to the program. it's been eight years since 298

people died on malaysia airlines flight mh17 was shot down over ukraine. the netherlands have convicted three men of murder. they sentenced to russian intelligence officers and ukrainian separatist leader to life in prison and ordered them to pay $60 million in compensation. judges found the missile that shut down the jet was russian-made and was launched by russian controlled rebels. none of the men appeared in court and it is unclear whether they will serve their sentences. a fourth russian was acquitted because of a lack of evidence. the dutch government has some of the russian ambassador in the verdict " neglected impartiality". we report from outside the court. >> very good. good to see you. >> they traveled from all over the world to find answers eight years after the lives of their loved ones ended up abruptly in

the sky over ukraine. more than 10 different nationalities were on board to malaysia airlines flight mh17. 196 of the 298 victims were dutch. the plane departed from -- when it was downed over a war zone in eastern ukraine. the bodies of those on board and debris from the plane fell on the field near the village. the court ruled that there was no doubt that the plane was shut down within antiaircraft missile brought in from russia and fired from a field controlled by pro-russian separatists. two former russian intelligence officers and one ukrainian separatist commander are held responsible for transporting the missile. >> the court considered proven that the suspects inspired to purposefully and illegally bring down a plane knowing to cause mortal danger. >> he lost his eldest son,

daughter-in-law and six-year-old grandson traveling to bali for vacation. his backpack was all that came home attacked. >> it's important to show the world, to show the russians think they're done. you've taken the life of a six-year-old child. now, we are -- [indiscernible] >> in the past two and half years, he attended more than 65 court healings -- earrings fulfilling -- hearings fulfilling a promise he made. how amends the suffering has been for the past eight years with the bodies of loved one scattered in a field in eastern ukraine, some for weeks. even though those convicted have not attended the trial, they feel that justice has been done. >> there was water in my eyes. water in my eyes.

it's unbelievable. >> law experts say the verdict was groundbreaking. for the first time a court ruled that pressure controlled armed and financed the separatist rebels of the republic in eastern ukraine. russia has always denied any involvement to russian foreign ministry, it has called the verdict scandalous. the court was under unprecedented pressure to have a politically motivated outcome. prosecutors and the three convicted men have three weeks to decide if they want to appeal the verdict. ♪ >> let's bring in our guest for today's inside story. in the netherlands, thomas. he lost his son in the mh17 attack. marika at the university of amsterdam and in oxford, an

associate fellow of the united services institute. welcome, thank you for joining us for inside story. thomas, your son, quinn died in the disaster. i know this has been a difficult time for your family. tell us first about how you felt when that verdict was read out in court. do you feel justice has been done, does this bring you any closure? >> i have difficulties talking about closure, this will never be closed. the truth is yesterday was important to all of us. it was important to me to finally hear a judge, an independent judge, well respected internationally, that would say what happened, who was responsible and who should be convicted. so, yes, it was a great day to finally here what we know already in the past years since

we had received that information through different press channels already. >> you follow the top -- trial from the very beginning what was it like for your family and the other victims families who were there with you? >> i did go twice to the court. i lived in new york for five years. i was unable to attend but when i was there i attended or i tried to attend the hearings on a livestream. the most difficult part was when other next of kin were allowed to tell their stories in front of the board. and to tell what happened that -- to them, how they were spending their lives in pain, losing jobs. it was really painful. people you have come to know for

the past eight years. you met them in different settings, presentations. so, they become your family, your friends, friends that you never wanted to have a, by the way. but, we know them and therefore it was a great gathering, yesterday as well. these past two years were difficult. it was difficult to hear the defense putting the lines up again. it was difficult to read those lines from the russian government and this decision, yesterday, hopefully will bring to an end all of these lives up in the air all the time. that was the most painful for me. >> in amsterdam, you also follow this trial from the very beginning, this case. and you are in court when the verdict was read. what was your reaction and do you feel justice has been

served? >> it was a very long and complex case and leading to a complex outcome. they made a really great judgment. on the question of whether justice is done, justice is so complex. if you think of justice in terms of perfect justice when there is only justice of the suspects are imprisoned, then there will not be justice. but what the next of kin show us is that justice is so much more complex. there's so many more dimensions and there is a truth telling and accountability not only for the next of kin but also for ukraine, from 2014 has been saying to the world that russia was involved in the donbas. the court acknowledged that. it is also form of justice this court ruling can also contribute to future generations in trying to settle on a common historical

and accurate historical account of what actually happened back then in 2014. >> samuel in oxford, your reaction, more than 10 different nationalities were on board mh 17 was is verdict a balanced one? >> i think the verdict is a balanced one. if you look at the details of this case it is important to keep in mind that one of the suspects, the other suspect actually communicated with each other on the day of the attack. that the missile had striked a ukrainian jet or foreign jet that was cutting forward, this was in the military success. then the russians backtracked with a fire like they typically do. they blamed it was a ukrainian book muscle -- missile and they have been promoting conspiracies about this. this was a return to the truth, the verdict was just.

it is very unfortunate to see that the suspects are not going to face punishment. after years of promoting falsehoods and claiming that the corpses were not fresh or that the ukrainians, in 2020, admitted there was a moral responsibility, but he was in russia and is allegedly on the front lines with a $150,000 mandate. he is not going to be punished. the other two it is the same thing. it's a victory for troops but it is sad that the perpetrators of this are not going to be held accountable for their crimes. >> what further action would you like to see taken, because samuel said it is unlikely that the suspects will be extradited and unlikely that the russian government will take response ability? >> well. i believe that we will have to wait for putin and's government to step down -- and his

government will step down. the next president of russia will be hopefully willing to acknowledge their involvement and make their excuses to the families involved. that is what i'm looking for. this verdict, at least now, shows who has been responsible for supplying the missile and these four persons who were on trial now. we know there are many more that should be on trial. higher in rank, lower in rank. i'm not looking for one of them to being jail. i would like to see the russian government stopping all the a lot -- all the lies and acknowledge their hostility. we bless my government and

international governments to put pressure on pressure to do that. >> talk to us about the evidence the court had to weigh. i understand it was different evidence from different sources. we know that moscow has maintained that it had no party to the conflict that unfolded in donbas that unfolded in 2014. it didn't control the russian fighters and donetsk. was their clarity proven as to was to blame and whether russia had direct responsibility? >> yes. the court was extremely clear. it repeated over and over how strong the evidence was of russia's involvement. that book came from russia. so, the court really said it clearly there is no doubt that this has happened. also there's absolutely, completely incredible, to think of a scenario that ukraine would have been involved. if only for the impossibility of

fabricating all that evidence within no time. and the court has gone through every element of all of the evidence. that is a lot. >> was sort of evidence? -- what sort of evidence? >> they said they didn't find any manipulation. they used tactics, recorded conversations by the sbu. they had them research, analyze for tampering with. they use a lot of information from people, standing by, seeing the book come by, making pictures and videos and posting them on social media. open source investigators that connected all of that social media and other information. it was cooperated, the telephone companies were radiated and connected with satellite for information -- satellite information. that you can see on the pictures

and whether that was correct with the time of day and sunshine of the type of whether it was. there were so many different types of evidence. also, witness statements. but not very many of them, the court said there was so much evidence. it was absolutely impossible that any of the alternative scenarios could have happened. it was russia not ukraine. >> this has been dismissed as politically motivated. does the case make the responsibility of the kremlin clear? >> it's undeniable that the separatists in donetsk were puppy -- puppets of the kremlin. igor arrived there and fermented a revolution or insurgency that the ukrainians had to fight against after the u.s. it was part of a direct russian effort to issue the country more broadly. these actors were part of russia's strategic plan.

russia gave from directions for them on military activities. that's wh whyy -- why russia's the blame contextually along with the evidence that was mentioned. >> let me come back to you. some victims families have suggested that russia's full-scale invasion of ukraine, this year, may have -- could have been averted if the international community had pushed back harder, against moscow in the years after the mh 17 disaster. do you share that view? what you think the international community could have done then? >> you know. i do share that -- the feeling. it's through this whole war we have seen today, started eight years ago, mh 17 was the biggest first of casualties. i must agree.

our international leaders from the united states, have not been able to draw the line for putin and has accepted that he would go further and further. and even today, i must say, i'm surprised to see what putin is allowed to do in ukraine. how many people he is allowed to kill. that is a very, very difficult, political decision on how much we want to be involved and do we want to have a third world war. i have to say that the united nations in this regard has not shown any strength to avoid this kind of serious problems in the world. i'm asking myself, what is

needed? how is it possible that russia, today, i getting itself -- is getting itself out of international backlash to avoid any response abilities. this is not the kind of world order we have been looking for. the united nations should stop it and it is not happening. >> to think the west turned a blind eye in 2014? do you think the situation we find ourselves today in ukraine could have been a voted, -- could have been avoided? >> well it was related to each other. the mh flight 17 was one of the major crimes committed. the other was the crimea, which was the violation of international law and sovereignty of the united nations states. this is backed by russian troops

until the agreement and the russian troops who assisted the militias did not leave. so, it's got to be viewed in the broader context of pressure against ukraine during that time period, which is aimed at overthrowing and delegitimizing a democratically elected government. so, in that context, the west has a lot to be blamed for, for not taking action. nord stream 2, expending gas dependency for the years to follow set of imposing stricter sanctions like the ones that have imposed now. it's been a moral mistake in this context. the the fact that there was no clarity or verdict on this case until now and there hasn't been pressure on it, russia's using some of the same narratives to justify its war crimes today in ukraine. they went from an operation to claiming the corpses were

staged, so many others. there's a lot to blame from the west. >> the icc has launched an investigation into whether war crimes or been committed in the ukraine and has set up a team to gather evidence about this. how does this mh 17 case that legal precedents on russia's invasion of ukraine? >> well, -- it's clear that multiple -- that evidence was fabricated. we also see cases against russia as estate at the european court of human rights and the international court of justice that revolves around the question of the involvement of russia. there's many types of responsibility that is important. in terms of criminal accountability, it relies on evidence and what we see in the

last 10 years or so is a huge revolution in the types of evidence that are being collected. this case, as well as other cases, you see social media, user generated information is being used and is entering the court rooms. this court yesterday that indeed, even though it my not be perfect in terms of chain of custody or other types, you can test the reliability sufficiently that it can be used, especially cooperated with other types of as that in -- other types of as that it -- other types of evidence, that is difficult to get to the crime scene by former investigators that this type of evidence is usable in proving them. >> isn't it difficult with that type of evidence to establish the chain of command in cases like this? >> it could be. what is interesting in this cases, you saw all sorts of

social media, open source research into the factual relations between these individuals connected with recorded telephone conversations. when we think of the ukraine conflict and the crimes that are being committed and the accountability for of the future, the spu has shown for these individuals and for telephone conversations with others, it has a lots of recorded telephone conversations of people already using this trial. there's going to be a lot to come for future prosecutions. >> how significant is this verdict for other cases being brought against russia? are you hopeful, as a victim family member that the chain of command can be established and perhaps those at the top can be held responsible? >> well, this is an important first step. we know that the prosecutor will

announce early next year, no steps against other persons in but chain of command. from what i've seen, there has been -- it has been helpful in discovering names. they have shown the picture of all of those people that are responsible. i do think that this verdict is going to be very helpful to get to these other people who are really responsible. we will see all the activity, by a prosecutor next year. >> samuel, your thoughts, do you think other leaders, russian generals, could be prosecuted? could president putin be prosecuted one day over the war in ukraine and other will -- other crimes committed? how difficult will it be that is

set up to judge these crimes, to establish a chain of command? >> so, immediately after the war started, the icc establish proceedings that would deal with that. russia is not a part of that because it withdrew, which created some procedural complications. any european countries, the americans, nato has been working with ukraine on creating evidence of russian war crimes so these tribunals can be held. ukraine is -- has also initiated proceedings against the lower level russian personnel for crimes. obviously, the big problem is that russia has a categorical opposition to extraditing its own citizens. vladimir putin made that clear. when the bullard investigation came out and there was talk about -- or those on the fbi's

most wanted list. i don't think it is going to be likely that these perpetrators are going to be brought to justice in person but certainly, a chain of command can be established in other figures who are so heavily involved in shaping ukraine policy can be prosecuted and the suspects we have seen yesterday. >> thank you for a very interesting and insightful discussion. thank you to all three of you for joining here today -- joining us here today on inside story. you can watch this program any time by visiting our website on al jazeera.com. go to our facebook page for more conversation. you can also join the conversation on twitter. from me and the whole team here, thanks for watching, bye for now. ♪

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rowd clappi] crowd: nina, nina! nina, nina! nina, nina! nina! eric campbell: nina baginskaya is a 74-year-old great-grandmother who's become the icon of a revolution. maria pugachjova: i've never been scared since the 9th of