the space and learn better. ♪ >> time for a quick check on the headlines. in the u.s., the founder of the right wing oathkeepers group has been convicted of seditious conspiracy. steward rhodes was convicted of planning an attack to block joe biden's 2020 victory over then-president trump. >> the debate has always been was this just a riot that got out of control? for many of those on trial or have been charged, these are the arguments they make.

we were just overwhelmed by the moment. we went in because everyone else went in, but the department of justice has achieved its goal of suggesting and indeed proving to a jury that this was deeper. this really was a concerted effort to interrupt the proceedings in congress to prevent joe biden from going forward. >> millions of people are struggling with rolling blackouts during winter in ukraine after russia attacked the power grids. no more for more teams have secured their place as to the knockout stages of the fifa world cup in qatar. senegal, the netherlands, the usa, and england have all made it to the round of 16. qatar struck a deal with germany to supply 2 million tons of liquefied natural gas a year. it starts in 2026 and will last 15 years. additional police officers have

been deployed on the streets of china as officials try to prevent protests against the government's strict covid measures. those are the headlines. the news continues here on al jazeera after "inside story." stay tuned. thanks for watching. >> museums around the world are returning artifacts to their countries of origin. so how can other countries ensure that their cultural treasures are given back and can go on display for generations to

come? this is "inside story or cup -- "inside story." ♪ hello. i'm adrian finighan. welcome to the program. london's museum has returned its collection of bronzes to nigeria . they were stolen in the late 1800s by british colonial troops after they invaded the kingdom of benin in whats now nigeria. the artifacts ended up in museums in europe and the united states, but african states have sought their return for decades, but the museum is still keeping hold of hundreds of the statues. we start off with this report. >> a major moment in a long campaign. in 1897, british soldiers stole thousands of finely wrought artifacts like this from the

then kingdom of benin in modern-day nigeria. now the museum is returning these six pieces and signing over the ownership of the other pieces in its ownership. >> they can be in the museum for people to see in the context of where they have been looted. it is an important moment for us. >> there are plans for a significant number of artifacts to remain on an extended loan from the nigerian government. >> the resurgence of the black lives matter movement in 2020 leading to concerns about how we accounted for the provenance project, so it was a natural outgrowth. >> it is here though at the british museum in london where the largest single collection of items taken from benin in the 19th century remains. more than 900 individual

objects. the museum says it wants to ensure that collection is shared as widely as possible. it is not, though, talking about returning them. one major stumbling block is written into british law. a 1963 act of parliament for fitting the museum disposing of its exhibits with a few clearly defined exceptions. the museum emphasized its collaborative work in nigeria, saying, we actively engaged with partners through the binning dialogue group and the additional binning -- binning -- benin initiative. in recent years, other institutions in scotland, france, germany, and elsewhere have been returning items from their binning bronze -- benin bronze collections. nigeria's cultural custodians say it is time for british institutions and british politicians to ride a historic wrong. >> ancient artifacts scattered

across collections around the world are slowly being returned to their original homes. in january, five roman artifacts stolen from the ancient city of palmyra in syria were handed back. they have been kept on display in a private museum in lebanon since 2018. egypt also has a long list of stolen historical items that it wants back, but that list is long and the whereabouts of many pieces unknown. a golden coffin was returned to the sense of cairo, only after it was spotted in a celebrity photo shoot organized by new york's metropolitan museum of art. in february, a seven hundred kilograms statue arrived back on easter island in the pacific. it had been house in chile's capital since the 19th century. let's bring in our guests for today's discussion. from london, we are joined by

barnaby phillips, an author and former al jazeera correspondent. from the netherlands, a senior researcher of lunar collections, and from sweden, an assistant professor of egyptology. good to have you with us. the binning bronzes -- the benin bronzes have become emblematic about this whole debate around cultural antiquities. it has put some major western using m's -- western museums in a difficult position, regarding -- regardless of their intentions. >> yes, i think you are alluding to the british museum, which has the largest collection of benin bronzes, which has unique importance in this discussion as well as so many other discussions around restitution and provenance because it is the

national museum of the country which was responsible for polluting these items. i think event's have moved very quickly and as you say, they have left the british museum badly isolated. just three or four years ago, the british museum was working together with other western museums and had reached a sort of compromise a deal with their counterparts in nigeria, which the british museum was quite happy with, whereby they were going to lend back parts of their benin bronze collection in rotation. things have moved on and quite a -- moved on incredibly quickly, and suddenly any western museum which is not offering to give back it's been bronzes is finding itself very much under the spotlight -- any western museum which is not offering to give back its benin bronzes. >> why are there some people who vehemently oppose it?

do their arguments still have any merit? >> well, they have had merit for a long time, but things are changing. especially the atmosphere is changing. i would argue that private collectors and some museums hide from the discussion as they are scared because the mood at the moment is very much pro-restitution. one of their arguments has always been the ability of heritage institutions in africa to preserve these objects, but this slowly is disappearing. i remember in dutch and european media in the990's and 2010's and so, this ability to preserve dominated the news, and now it is much more the right of these people who have then

dispossessed to get these treasures back. >> where does egypt's government stand on the issue of restitution? as we were saying, so many precious ancient egyptian artifacts have then looted over the years. the problem is nobody really knows where many of them are right now. where does the egyptian government stand or even start in terms of getting them back? >> there has been a lot of discussion about the restitution, to begin with, of some very high-profile monuments or artifacts. we mentioned the british museum, so of course, the rosetta stone is high up on the list, when it comes to the relationship between the british museum and greece, but beyond that, i think the topic is a hot one for egypt and western museum institutions, also because of how many antiquities have left the

country over the last decade or so. at the time of the arab spring with the political upheaval, of course, there was a perfect time for antiquity leaders -- antiquity looters to illegally export these from the country. the government of egypt has filed requests, and it is indeed -- we tend to think of museums as cages where ancient objects are put on display, but basically they are just covered in dust, but museums are cultural institutions, so museums change as our culture and societies change, so the topic of restitution is very much a valued topic, and i think what really matters is that we should not think of it as a zero-sum game. there is a tendency of imagining that if the british museum is to return this high-profile item, that it is lost for the british

public or international tourists coming to london, but it is not that. as we heard, there's also suggestions of collaborations between countries and museum institutions. we should think of it not as a zero-sum game, like somebody's gain and somebody else's loss because it is not that. >> there are challenges for a country like nigeria here. perhaps you can outline some of those challenges for us. is there a danger that nigeria could scorn those opportunities? >> it is a risk, yes. it is a moment of incredible opportunity but also jeopardy. going back into the past and untangling what happened is inevitably complicated. when the british invaded the kingdom of benin in 1897, nigeria did not exist. nigeria was a british creation that came into existence some 17 years later and it was not something necessarily that

people who lived within its territories had ever admitted. there are different interests within nigeria, all of whom are acutely interested in the return of the bronzes. there is a federal government which talks about building a national museum hour has talked about doing it for decades, but there's no sign of it existing. there's a state government, and estate really involved in this issue, and then there is the king of benin, who is the great-great-grandson of the man who was toppled by the british in 1897 and from whose palaces the treasures were looted, so someone who has an undoubted moral authority in this case, but i think in broad terms, the ouija had it absolutely right. we should not see it as a zero-sum game. it is i believe firmly in the case of the benin bronzes and many other treasures -- there is a real win-win situation.

there's no way people in countries like nigeria or ghana should not be able to connect with their heritage, but that many of these treasures are well treasured and should continue to circulate around the great cities of our world. britain, new york, paris, beijing, delhi, sydney, and so on. >> do you want to pick up on that for me? going back to something you were saying a few moments ago, for many years, those who have resisted the calls have made the tenuous argument that the artifacts would not receive proper care if returned to places like nigeria and other countries from where they were stolen. that argument, as far as you're concerned, is no longer valid? >> the point is that the africans would say finally the europeans are admitting that

they have robbed these objects and asked the robbers, they are going to define the conditions under which these objects will be given back. if you talk to africans, that has also occurred in the benin dialogue group, this issue of the ability to preserve has been discussed widely, and it is only because there is an uncertain atmosphere of trust that has been created. the africans admit themselves that there is a problem of disrespect, but we should leave it to them to solve it. >> perhaps you can clear something up for me. can you explain the legal differences between the terms restitution, which we have mentioned a lot so far on the program, return, and where the turn -- the term good conscience comes into it?

>> i can definitely tell you about the word good conscience. there are also a difference between legal issues and ethical issues. the issue of illegally smuggled antiquities, you mentioned earlier on in the program the coffin at the metropolitan museum. i can tell you within my professional environment it comes to museum curators and academics, no one would ever act in bad faith, but the documents had been completely made up and falsified. hence, once the truth came to the surface, the coffin was straightaway returned to the government of egypt and as legitimate owners, but the problem here goes beyond the idea of legal appropriation and where the legal rights stand. it is also about ethical. it is also about preparation of

historical wrongs. the legal entities set in the past perhaps a signed contract and handed over antiquities to european powers, those legal entities no longer exist. thinking about again the british museum and in this case, the parthenon marbles. official authorities in the end answer to the powers in istanbul. the same in the 19 century for egypt. it was the province of the ottoman empire. that's really actually the problem that i think is more difficult to define. i think nobody would disagree when it comes to repatriating illegal antiquities. the problem is the ethical issues. how far do we decide to go when trying to fix the wrongs of destiny? >> i just want to ask you to take a little sidetracked here for a moment. there are cases where valuable artifacts have been moved in order to preserve and protect them in times of conflict, especially in recent times in

the middle east. i'm curious as to your experience of that and how it differs from the case of the benin in his -- bronzes. i'm thinking of things like omaira and how in times of conflict you protect sites of archaeological significance. >> that is a major issue. palmyra is a good case. first of all in that case, much of it was architectural monuments, so how did you move and protect those? also the idea that moving antiquities somewhere else keeps them safe, especially to some other country, it is hardly arbitrary. many would object and say that a lot of antiquities, including egyptian antiquities, were lost during world war ii in europe. in germany, leipzig but also berlin, plenty of antiquities we only have photographs of because they were destroyed in the bombings of world war ii. those things would be much safer had they stayed back in egypt or

in other countries in asia as opposed to being in europe. where do you draw this line? it is hardly arbitrary. and it runs the risk of once again repeating patronizing attitudes of the past. >> not all artifacts in western museums were taken by force or stolen. how does that complicate them at -- how does that complicate the discussion? >> it complicates particularly the providence research. if you will allow me to give an example, the belgian federal government have developed a law which says objects that are proven to have been stolen from congo, for instance, become automatically the property of the democratic republic of congo

. they have investigated this, especially for the major africa museum near brussels, and they have about 80,000 objects from congo, and they have calculated that of these 80,000, 883 are proven to have been stolen. they argue that 45,000 have been collected in a correct way and 35,000, they do not know. they still have to investigate. this is a big, big problem because there is very little documentation about these objects, so probably we will never know precisely if this is losing or not -- looting or not, so how do we handle that? in my view, the discussion in europe is going to be very much focused on our feelings or sharing of guilt on how we appropriated them and maybe

should be much more oriented toward the needs of the countries they were taken from. indonesia, the former dutch colony, has a restitution committee, and they work along this line. you say what do we need? to have a representative collection of our historical and cultural past. >> this 1963 law prevents the british museum returning -- not all but some of the artifacts in its possession. to what extent is the british government in particular passing the buck? to line the department for digital culture, media, and sport has said the decisions are matter for the trustees of each museum. should there be more government intervention here, a driven policy to guide how museums act? >> i think the british

government as being a bit disingenuous there. the british museum act prevents the british museum from deaccessioning objects in its possession, with a few exceptions for which the law has changed in recent years. objects stolen during the holocaust -- the holocaust and human body parts, human remains. if the law can change for those exceptions, why can't it change for, say, objects looted during the colonial period, people ask, but the point is british museum directors and trustees in the past had hidden behind this law. it has given a convenient excuse for inactivity. nowadays, i'm not quite so sure that is the case. i see the british museum as a rather divided place and some curators within it artistically uncomfortable about the situation they are in, but they are unable to permanently return the benin bronzes or for that

matter, the parthenon marbles until the law changes, and that would require a vote in parliament. if you look at the current configuration of the british parliament with the conservative majority, that seems extremely unlikely to happen short of a general election and a new political configuration. it is a national political issue , which generally does leave museums like the british museum but also other museums -- the vna, the national gallery -- hamstrung on this issue undoubtedly. >> i want to spend the last few minutes of the program talking about the future. luigi, you talked earlier on about how the world can continue to enjoy and learn from these objects. should we expect to see ancient antiquities presented in digital form rather than in person?

you talked about collections being loaned out. to what extent does that water down their impact? and if we are seeing them in bits, if you like -- not a full collection because it has been loaned out -- does that detract from the educational value of visiting a museum? >> there's no doubt this is the direction where we are aiming at the future. there will be more and more museum experiences, more than just walking through items, that there will be more replicas, but this also does not concern just artifacts and objects in museum collections. this also concerns monuments. if we think about some of the earliest historic art examples in the caves of france, nobody can visit the original because just human presence would mean the decay and damage to the

original pigments. we have similar situations in egypt for some decorated tombs that are too fragile. yes, indeed, that is the direction, and i don't think it detracts to the educational value of the experience. in a way, it can add to it. if nothing else, i do appreciate that it might detract from the emotional connection that one might have regarding what is the original nation's object. there are still some things we need to fix. this is also part of the conversation we need to have. we have not sorted all of it. >> we have about a minute left in the program. what will the museum of the future look like? >> i'm not sure about digital objects. we should distinguish between on the one hand ceremonial, religious objects and on the

other, maybe household utensils. digital repatriation can be a solution for the latter. for the first, i know for most countries of origin, they want the originals to come back and if they allow it, we can have made digital copies in our museums. but i think in the museum of the future, it should not be about objects, first of all. it should be about a relationship between former colonized and over colonizers, and in the relationship, you discuss, for instance, can we show ancestral remains? can we show mommies? can we show these sensitive pictures, photographs, etc.? -- can we show mommies -- can we show mummies?

>> that is, i think, a great place to leave it. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. for further discussion, join us on our facebook page, and you can join the conversation on twitter. thanks for watching. we will see you again. ♪

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