12/08/22 12/08/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> that the people elect her. but the people did not like her. -- but people did not elect her. amy: pedro castillo was ousted

and arrested. his vice president has now been sworn in as president. we will get the latest. plus we go to moscow to speak with the prominent russian marxist dissident as vladimir putin admits the war in ukraine will be a long process. we will also look at a historic supreme court case that could upend demoacy in the united states. >> if the supreme courtides with the state legislature in is case, how are eleions wi be conducted. reduce time fo certain accommodations that make for voters, including -- the receipt of late ballots. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

the supreme court heard arguments wednesday in moore v. harper, a case with far-reaching implications for voting rights. during three hours of debate, justices considered a bid by north carolina republican lawmakers to overturn a state supreme court ruling that redrew north carolina's congressional map due to partisan gerrymandering. the plaintiffs want the supreme court to embrace the independent state legislature theory, which would hand state lawmakers sweeping authority to override courts, governors, and state constitutions. attorney neal katyal argued against the theory on behalf of north carolina voting rights groups. >> i am not sure i have ever come across a theory under this court that would invalidate more state constitutional clauses, federally constitutional. hundreds of them from the founding to today. it would so elections chaos

forcing infusion to track system with one set of roles for federal elections and another for state ones. amy: we'll have more on the supreme court case later the broadcast. in peru, leftist president pedro castillo was impeached and arrested wednesday after he attempted to dissolve congress and install an emergency government. lawmakers accused castillo of attempting a coup as peru's top court declared the move unconstitutional. the dramatic turn of events came as castillo faced his third impeachment vote since taking office just a year-and-a-half ago, vowing to tackle poverty and heal the wounds of colonialism. castillo's vice president dina boluarteas been sworn in as peru's first woman president. >> as we all know, there has been an attempted coup d'état which is not found backing and

institutions of democracy and in the street. this congress of the republic for the constitutional mandate has taken a decision and it is my duty to act accordingly. amy: ahead of his impeachment, castillo, a former union leader and teacher, accused lawmakers of trying to blow up democracy and disregarding the will of the people. we will have more on this story later in the broadcast. ukraine's government says russian artillery fire killed 10 people and wounded many others wednesday in the eastern donetsk region. the killings came as ukraine's electrical grid operator announced new emergency cuts to try to repair energy infrastructure damaged by russia. this week, the united nations reported more than 17,000 civilians have been killed since russia's invasion, including 419 children. matilda bogner, the head of the u.n. human rights monitoring missioin ukrai, releed a report wednesday documenting summary executions of civilians by russian troops in northern

ukraine during the first six weeks the war. >> russian soldis brough civilians to makeshift places of detention d then executed them in captivi. many of the victims bodiesere found with their hands tied behi their backs and gunshot wounds to their heads. some victims were summarily executed on the spot. civilians were target on roads while moving within or between settlements, including while attempting to flee the hostilities. amy: the u.n. report also documented torture, arbitrary detention, enforced disappearances and sexual violence committed by russian forces. in moscow, president putin acknowledged russian forces may be fighting in ukrne for a long time to come. his comments came as ukraine's military claimed more than 93,000 russian troops have been killed since the invasion in february.

later another broadcast, we will speak with boris kagarlitsky. in saudi arabia,hinese esident jinping reived a lavish welcome from mohammed bin salman. china is saudi arabia's top oil importer and saudi media report that two nations are expected to sign agreements worth $30 billion in agreements, including in information technology, transport, and construction. here in the u.s., over 100 grou urged congress on wednesday to vote for rnie sanders' yemen war powers resolution to end u.s. backing for saudi arabia's war and blockade in yemen. on tuesday, sanders said he now has enough support to pass a resolution in the senate and he plans to bring his measure to a floor vote as early as next week. in the occupied west bank, israeli forces shot and killed three palestinians during an early morning raid on the city of jenin and its refugee camp.

two others were wounded by gunfire, one of them critically. it was the latest in a series of near-daily raids on palestinian communities. a local official accused israeli snipers of firing indiscriminately. >> this snipers were all over the buildings and rooftops. they were targeting anything that moved. also soldiers and military vehicles were shooting. even an ambulance was targeted. amy: the red crescent showed reporters several bullet holes in an ambulance they said had been used to transport a wounded person. schools, businesses and stores have shut down across jenin today in a general strike to protest the killings. in iraq, two people were killed and at least 16 others wounded after soldiers opened fire with live ammunition on a crowd of protesters in the southern city of nassiriya. about 300 people joined wednesday's protests, demanding freedom for a young activist who was sentenced to three years in

prison for a social media post that mocked the commander of a shiite paramilitary group. he was convicted on charges of publicly insulting a government institution or official. iran's government has announced the first execution of a protester who was sentenced to die for joining anti-government protests. mohsen shekari was hanged early this morning after a revolutionary court found him guilty of enmity against god, accusing him on rioting during a demonstration in tehran in september. the protests erupted after the death of 22-year-old mahsa amini in police custody after she was arrested for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. amnesty international has condemnedeath sentces handed down to protesrs, sayinghey followed "grossly unfair trials marked by mmary and predominany secret pcesses." a guatemalan court sentenced

former president otto perez molina and his vice president roxana baldetti each to 16 years in prison each after they were found guilty on fraud and conspiracy charges. the pair stepped down in 2015, accused of benefiting from a customs graft scheme known as la linea, which stole some $3.5 million in state money. the x leaders have vowed to appeal. in labor news in the united states, over 1100 "new york times" writers and other employees are on a 24-hour walkout to demand the newspaper bargain in good faith after their last contract expired in march 2021 amid disputes over pay. it's the largest labor action "the new york times" has seen since the 1970's. unionized workers are asking "new york times" readers to respect the digital picket line and instead use local news sources for information.

and pentagon papers whistleblower daniel ellsberg has revealed he was in possession of confidential documents containing evidence of u.s. war crimes leaked by former military analyst chelsea manning and given to him as backup by wikileaks. >> i had positn of all the chelsea manning iormation before it came out in the prs. i never said that publicly. julian assange gave it to me as a backup in case they caugh him -- he could rely on me to find some way to get itut. when i say that, i am saying that by the current staing of the department of justice, i am now as indictable as julian assange and everyone who put that information out. amy: julian assange has been jailed in britain since his arrest in 2019. april the biden administration

is asking the british government to extradite him to the u.s. where he faces up to 175 years in prison on espionage and hacking charges. wikileaks feared his extradition could happen in the next few weeks. and this breaking news, brittney griner has been released by russia in a one-for-one prisoner swap for arms dealer victor boot. this according to u.s. officials. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman, joined by my co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show looking at the political crisis in peru. on wednesday, the peruvian president pedro castillo was oued from power and arrested hours after he moved to temporarily dissolve the

peruvian congress. castillo's vice president dina boluarte has been sworn to replace him. castillo is a left-leaning former teacher and union leader who was in office for less than a year and a half. last year, he defeated keiko fujimori, the daughter of peru's former's dictator alberto fujimori. on wednesday, castillo and the dramatic announcement of dissolving congress just before lawmakers were preparing their third attempt to impeach him on corruption charges. this is part of what castillo said on wednesday. >> in response to citizens to man's throughout the breadth of the country, we decided to establish exceptional government and reestablishing the rule of law and democracy and therefore the following measures. temporally dissolve the congress of the republic and establish exceptional emergency government. amy: pedro castillo's attempt to dissolve congress was quickly rejected by members of peru's supreme court.

within hours, congress voted 101 to 6 to remove him from office for reasons of "permanent moral incapacity." then castillo's vice president dina boluarte was sworn in as president, making her peru's sixth president in seven years. she also becomes peru's first ever female president. >> as we all know, there has been an attempted coup d'état and a push by mr. pedro castille, which has not found backing in institutions of democracy. this congress of the republic for the constitutional mandate has taken a decision, and it is my disease -- my duty to act accordingly. amy: supporters of pedro castillo took to the streets of lima on wednesday to denounce what they saw as the president's unjust removal from power. >> she is not our president.

let the people elect her and then i will recognize her. but the people did not elect her. the people elected pedro castille. if the people of congress consider themselves so democratic, then respect the people's voice, respect that we voted for castillo. amy: on wednesday, the united states quickly recognized dina boluarte as peru's new president. however, mexican president andres manuel lopez obrador criticized castillo's removal from power. amlo said -- "we consider it unfortunate that, due to the interests of the economic and political elites, from the beginning of pedro castillo's legitimate presidency, an environment of confrontation and hostility was maintained against him until it led him to make decisions that have served his adversaries to carry out his dismissal." to talk more about the political crisis in peru, we are joined by javier puente. he is a peruvian scholar who serves as associate professor and chair of latin american and

latino studies at smith college. he is also the author of "the rural state," a book about campesino politics and state formation in the 20th century peruvian andes. welcome back to democracy now!, professor. can you explain what has just happened? the significance of what has taken place in peru with the removal of the peruvian president castillo? >> thank you so much for having me. i think what we witnessed yesterday is yet another episode in an enduring crisis that can be chronologically mapped in different terms, can be seen as a 40 year cycle of crisis that goes all the way back to the coup d'état orchestrated in april 1992. the attempted coup by pedro castille and can be seen by short-term crisis that started

with the frustration to seize power in 2016. i think us to removal of presidents for these very political maneuver of the peruvian congress of impeaching presidents since march 2018 with the removal of the president then. what certainly -- this is yet another manifestation the lack of institutional stability that the country has experienced for at least three decades. as rest of the legacy -- most important driving political force in the country. nermeen: could you give some context, why is it the congress in peru made repeated attempts -- this was the third -- to impeach castillo? what were they accusing him of?

>> there is -- there has been an agenda of the peruvian congress since castillo wonhe president in021, to remove him from power part of the result of frustration stemng from yet another attempt to win the presidency and become elected president of peru. on the other hand, i think it is fair to say there has been a very clear evidence of corruption allegations with castillo and castillo's immediate politicalnd social circle. i think the abuse around --he attempts -- the congressional attempt to remove castillo from power seem to be contradictory. on the one hand, it is either

the congress raises the agenda to have casino -- campesino politics removed from it. it is not so much in contradiction with the idea that there was corruption, yes the allegations of mismanagement of funds and nepotism were present. so there is a possibility of allegations of corruption and yet that delivered congressional agenda [inscernible] actually coexisting and being part of the same narrative. nermeen: what a sure sense of how castillo is perceived now among peruvians? there have been reports during his term in office before he was ousted yesterday, there were

protests against him. but now of course there has also been supporters who have been opposing his ouster. could you give us a sense of how people perceived hisresidency? >> i think of to this point, the colliding issues i explained a minute ago. they are trying to remove him because these political forces are being racist or the fact, yes, he is a corrupt leader have been polarizing people to a large degree. but i think it has been tipped to matter not necessarily around castillo but his attempted coup deceived multiple organizations of civil society, including universities, research institutions, including organizations that up to this point have remained firmly independent and to some degree

questioning to remove castillo standing against castillo's measure to dissolve the congress and centralize power in the way he tried to yesterday. i think there is a form of consensus that is probably going in the next few hours of not the next few days about castillo's illegitimacy to try to do what he tried to do. yes, a lot of expectation around where are we headed next, what is going to happen with the presidency. dena boluarte has asked for some political truths -- truce. to what degree that is going to happen, i am skeptical they will

give her a truce. i think we will more evidence there was an agenda for removing castillo and it is about empowering -- not necessarily fujimori, but politics that -- business-oriented a neoliberal capitalist view in which the state is nothing but reward or vehicle for the conduction of all kinds of crude politics and businesses. amy: evo morales quoted talking about his deep concern over what is happening in peru saying "we see once again the peruvian oligarchy and the u.s. empire do not accept that union and indigenous leaders reached the government to work for the people?

amlo, the president of mexico, said something similar and said they forced him into a position where he then made mistakes. do you share this assessment? you mentioned fujimori. talk about her significance and how she is tied into this oligarchy like her father was. >> absolutely. one of the narratives since the election of pedro castille is related to the idea of indigenous and campesino origins as necessarily left-leaning. having a fair share around the figure of castillo, assuming just because it comes from indigenous origins, grassroots political origins, he has to be a left-leaning political figure. one of the point i mentioned to question that centralized

narrative was, for instance, is evangelical orientation which makes him socially conservative. he ran on a socially conservative platform. he was a campesino militia member, which, sure, they play a huge role in the civil war and in peru between 1980 and 2000, but they continue to be a form of paramilitaries i believe should come under scrutiny with politically lens. i think morales and lopez obrador to support castillo's administration and their condemnation of his removal, centralized view around castillo being indigenous, therefore being left. on the other hand, it is

questionable fujimori has since the 1990's been a primary political force in peru and, therefore, the primary responsible for establishing everything that we associate with neoliberal politics, with the establishment of the state administration, the market that has ruled latin american the last three to four decades. in that sense, keiko fujimori, the daughter of alberto fujimori, the new leader of -- has tried to encapsulate the original neoliberal information's conducted by his father were responsible for reinvigorating and bringing out peru from a situation of almost complete collapse and meltdown,

therefore, could continue to be responsible for bringing peru after its bicentennial to the next stage of development. that of course is just securing at all cost all forms of integrity and protection for conducting business, mafia-like as this is. this alignment between capital and corrupt politics represented by fujimori are behind everything that is happened in peru over the last 40 years in terms of the traditional is asian of the country and the peruvian state. amy: we will continue to follow these fast-moving developments in peru. javier puente, peruvian scholar, associate professor and chair of

latin american and latino studies at smith college. next up, we go to moscow to speak with a prominent russian and dissident as weimar pruden ms. the war in ukraine will be a "long process" and is breaking news, the wnba star rigney greiner has been free. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we go not to moscow to look at the war in ukraine and u.s.-russian relations. this breaking news, the wnba superstar brittney griner has been released by russia in a one-for-one prisoner swap with arms dealer victor boot. greiner had recently been sentenced to nine years in prison for bringing a small amount of cannabis oil into russia. meanwhile wednesday, russian president vladimir putin has acknowledged the war in ukraine

has taken longer than expected and predicted the conflict could go on and be a "long process." putin also warned the risk of nuclear war is increasing but vowed not to use nuclear weapons first. >> we don't deploy our nuclear weapons including technical nuclear weapons and other countries. but the americans do. and turkey and a number of other countries in europe. we have not gone mad. we understand what nuclear weapons are. we have these means and their more advanced than any other nuclear country. this is obvious day. it is a fact stopped are not going to swing it like a razor running around the world stop and of course we proceed from the fact we have got it. amy: putin's comments came as ukraine's government says russian artillery fire killed 10 people and wounded many others wednesday in the eastern donetsk region. meanwhile, ukraine's national electrical grid operator announced new emergency cuts to try to repair energy infrastructure damaged by russia. this week, the united nations reported more than 17,000

civilians have been killed since russia's invasion, including 419 children. we go now to moscow where we are joined by boris kagarlitsky. he is a marxist theorist and russian dissident. professor at the moscow school of social and economic sciences and contributor to the russian dissent project. his recent translated piece in english appears in links international journal of socialist renewal headlined "putin's russia: war fatigue sweeps the ranks." welcome to democracy now! if you can start by responding to this breaking news brittney griner released in a one to one prisoner swap with the arms merchant victor boot. the significance of this? >> first of all, hello. i'm happy to be here on your show. inside russia, the boot case is

not very prominent. of course, boot was, as we know, involved in arms trade. it is very clear boot was somehow connected to russian intelligence services, and that is why he was badly needed to come back to russia from the point of view of the government. i don't think it is a major news for russian public because people are much more interested in following what happened recently when supposedly ukrainian draws managed to reach some airfields inside russia. very deep inside russia.

they attacked an military air base where a managed supposedly to damage a few strategic bombers, which shows the outreach for ukrainian forces in terms of bringing the war back into russia is getting much more serious. that is really the news which is discussed and is very important because it brings the war back to the doorsteps of russian households. nermeen: could you explain what the perceptions of the war have been over these last many months and how that might be changing our size to because of this incident that you mentioned, the attacks on the two russian airfields by ukrainian drones? >> actually, there were three airfields because it was one --

anyhow, well, you see russian society used to be to some extent even now remains a political and apathetic. maybe it would be difficult to understand abroad but most russians did not acknowledge until very recently that there was a war. whatever you call it, special operation or whatever. most people did not care about something happening abroad. and as long as there was a professional army fighting somewhere abroad, nobody cared. and now the situation is changing for two reasons. one reason is that there was a so-called partial mobilization, which didn't really work out

posted the number of people who left the country to avoid mobile and is asian is at least -- mobilization is at least two times bigger than the number of people who managed to mobilize. and don't forget it seems there quite a lot of people who managed to hide themselves away from the mobilization. they seem to fail to reach the numbers which they originally planned and seems there was a major political failure and disaster accompanied with attempt because people who until recently did not care about the war, now started to care. of course it does not mean people are opposing the war, so to speak, enmass. people are worried. that is a more adequate term. people are not supporting though war, but they are not opposing

the war, either. it is a very kind of confused feeling. still it looks like the popularity of the war among those groups which did support the war is decreasing very, very rapidly. before i have spoken about the majority of russians who were apolitical, not interested in politics or foreign politics or mitary events, but there is a minority which is very political, which is interested in politics and someon this was badly divided because there was a segment that supported the war and the government and a segment which opposed the war. so within a section, of the population, the situation is

changing dramatically. the numbers of those who support the war are falling down very fast and the numbers of those who are either opposing it were critical of it increasing very fast. nermeen: could you explain why that is the case? why are more people included under among the elites, why have they come to be more critical of the war or oppose the war? you said earlier almost twice as many for more than twice as many people fled russia as were mobilized and this does not take into account the number of people who simply disappeared and did not participate in the mobilization. is there any sense of their returning? >> let's start with those who are leaving the country. young people, mostly males but also their families, wives and

girlfriends and children are leaving, mostly to cause ask dan -- cause asked on. also leaving for georgia, armenia, so managed to go as far away as to western europe or latin america. some left for argentina. they go where they can. if you can leave -- if you can leave for georgia, go to georgia. kazakhstan, it seems the social level is happy with all of these russians coming because these are usually young educated people who bring in the skills who sometimes also keep working

-- they bring in money. in armenia, they're quite elated that their gdp growth this year will increase by 13%, which is an absolute record. of course there also local nationalist who are very unhappy with so many russians arriving. [indiscernible] the highest numbers of what we now call relocationists. raising the numbers of russians.

there was an interesting advancement on television, a local brand of chocolate called kazakhstan. there is a russian refugee where they are crossing the mountains, kind of exotic environment so he is crossing the mountain somewhere into kazakhstan and riding the horse arrives and gives them this piece of chocolate is a taste of freedom. amy: let me ask you how you think this war will end? britey griner being released in this one to one swap with the prisoner known as the merchant of death, victor boot, who you say is clearly tied to the russian government, means the u.s. has been directly negotiating with russia.

in fact, biden had set a while ago, yes, he would directly negotiate when it came to brittney griner. and since then, he said he is open to negotiations to speaking directly with putin. this last week with a big state meeting with macron, the first a visit to the white house, macron has been repeatedly talking to putin and probably a back channel for the united states. what are your thoughts on how this is going to end, and how important you think it is for putin's political svival in russia? >> it willnd badly for us in russia. i failed to into the previous question, the why, why are russians so worried and feeling so and comfortable about what is happeng. the answer simple. russia is losing the war and russia is going to lose the war.

this is a very dramatic news for the russian public. but now what has been happening is the russian public is beginning to understand this reality. what is the real meaning? that is a big question. the war is already lost. what is going to be the price of defeat? well, first of all, i think there is no way ukrainian troops will stop unless russian troops get back to the starting positions, to a position they used to stay on february 24. so what is on the negotiation table, that is not goingo stop until russian troops are back to their original positions. however, the position now is getting worse because in ukraine

there are some radical voices which are saying they have to get further into crimea and donetsk republics, which are separatist republics which declared their independee earlier than 2014 and crimea was annexed by russia in 2014. putin -- another there is a danger of losing what they used to have before the beginning of the war. this is definitely a disaster for putin and hisegime. however, the question is, what is going to follow.

if they finally managed to make him resign, which is not excluded, then the question is, what kind of country are we going to inherit after putin is gone? nermeen: what kind of country do you imagine that might be? >> it is a very divided country at this point. it is very divided country facing tremendous political but also social crisis. a society which is not used to to organize itself, not used to new politics, so to speak. we have to learn as a colltive society to organize ourselves, to defend our interests. in that sense, we can eak about whatever happens say in latin america, for example, but

we have to understand the level of mobilization of lat american societies is much higher than that of say russian society today. well, this society is failing -- lacking the experience of self organization, and that is why it will be very difficult. nermeen: going back to the question of how russia is faring militarily in the conflict, you have written as well about the role of the group not just in ukraine but beyond. could you talk about the role they have been playing in this war and in particular the extent to which their aims differ from the aims of the russian military? >> well, it is a private military company which is more

than just a private military company. it is an army organized by a former felon. his army is not completely but to some extent composed of criminals who were released from labor camps, criminal custody. so it is a really dangerous group of people. there are already cases where they are known to be involved in crimes not only against civilians in ukraine, but also against civilians in russia proper. of course he and his friend, the head of the kitchen and republic

-- chechnya and republic, they are trying to get -- i don't know, some push of real political power and influence privatizing, to some extent, public and state functions. this is very dangerous. i am not that pessimistic because i think theilitary alreadynderstood where the danger is and there is a growing conflict between boston group and the military. there are quite a few cases known where they are shooting at each other. i think the power of military is much more than the power -- much more serious than the power of this private army. in that sense, i think if putin

is forced to leave -- which is not guaranteed -- then we can also witness some sort of short-term war between military and this group. but it is not going to last for very long because the military are much stronger. amy: boris kagarlitsky, do you fear for your own safety as we speak to you in moscow >> not more than anybody else in russia these days. the government declared be a foign agent but failed to explain foreign agent for which country am i. anyhow, well, no, i don't think we have to be so much afraid. i have been jailed in russia -- two times.

i was here for different changing regimes. it is an interesting time coming. nermeen: could you explain the impact, how are ordinary russians suffering from this war in terms of both sanctions, economic conditions, employment, inflation? if you could talk about how the war is impacting ordinary russians? >> the conversation is deteriorating, but -- it was deteriorating for nine years. it has been deteriorating for so long. this is kind of business as usual. things are getting worse. it used to be bad and it is going to be worse because anyhow. that is how people seet. amy: boris kagarlitsky, thank you for being with us rxis , theorist and russian

dissident, professor, contributor. we will link to your translated piece appears in links international journal of socialist renewal headlined "putin's russia: war fatigue sweeps the ranks." next up, we look at the historic supreme court case that could upend democracy. back in 30 seconds. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: influential and beloved founding drummer has died at the age of 65. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. the supreme court heard arguments wednesday in moore v. harper, a case with far-reaching implications for voting rights in the 2024 election and beyond. justice is considered a bid by republican -- north carolina republican lawmakers to overturn a state supreme court ruling that redrew north carolina's congressional map due to partisan gerrymandering. the plaintiffs want the supreme court to embrace the independent state legislature theory, which would hand state lawmakers sweeping authority to override courts, governors, and state constitutions. the attorney neal katyal argued against the theory on behalf of north carolina voting rights groups. >> i am not sure i have ever come across a theory in this court that would invalidate more

state constitutional clauses as being federally unconstitutional. hundreds of them from the founding two today. the blast radius from their theory would so elections chaos, forcing a confusing to track system with one set of rules for federal elections and another for state ones. amy: so what is the "independent state legislature theory"? we'll speak with a voting rights and constitutional law professor in a minute. first, this is an animated video by the brennan center for justice. >> who protects your right to vote? for more tha200 years, governors, state judges, and state constitutions have played critical role. when state legislatures try to grab too much power, governors veto them. state courts struck em down anstate cotitutionset imrtant bodaries. thesare the ches and balances that protect your vote. but these guys are asking the supreme court to abandon that history. eliminate checks on their power so they have nearly absoluteontrolver elecons.

theyin, wmakers your state cod eliminateoting by ma, earlyoting, a autotic voter registration. they could set up endless barriers to prevent you from voting. they could gerrymander you, making you vote -- all to keep their party in power. they were be nothing you could do about it. this is what the independent state legislature theory is all about. amy: for more, we're joined by franita tolson, professor of law at the university of southern california gould school of law. professor, welcome to democracy now! explain what exactly was argued before the u.s. supreme court and where the justices came down . why are people saying this is the case that could upend democracy? >> yesterday's argument was really important for the state of our democracy. what happened is the state

supreme court found very gerrymandered congressional map the state legislature adopted in north carolina violated the state constutions free and fair election provion. the state legislature is argui this violates the clause so in if in a state legislature theory provides [indiscernible] they didn't do so free of the constraints of the state constitution, particularly the supreme court. the stakes are high from a [indiscernible] provision is --

depending on how the justices come out, this case can have substantial implications for our democracy. amy: let's turn to the liberal supreme court justice elena kagan speaking during oral arguments. >> in all these ways, i think what might strike a person is that this is a proposal that gets rid of the normal checks and balances on the way governmental decisions are made in this country. and you might think it gets rid of all those checks and balances at exactly the time when they are needed most. because legislators, we all know, have their own self-interest. they want to get reelected. so there are countless times when they have incentives to suppress votes, dilute votes, negate votes, to prevent voters from having true access and true opportunity to engage the political process. amy: that is supreme court

justice elena kagan. professor, talk about how these justices broke down yesterday and give as a specific example of what kind of change, what kind of law could be instituted by legislatures not want to buy the people. >> the justices broke down -- [indiscernible] you had thomas and gorsuch seem to sign on to this idea seven version of this document [indiscernible] it is possible those three justices could come down and find that version of the independent state legislature theory should exist. then you had more liberal justices who think the state -- supreme -- should have a role.

all of the party seem to accept the governor can veto. [indiscernible] you have more liberal justices who sign on to the idea the state court should keep a role and this theory should have no place. but there many compromises re. the question for me coming out of this oral argument is justice kavanaugh, coney barrett, and the chief justice, they did not seem to buy into this idea the state court should have no role although they did articulate some concerns with the positions articulated by the more liberal justices. for example, justice kavanaugh seems to suggest the chief justice -- bush v gore could

potentially be a compromise position here. in that opinion, chief justice franklin basically said the state court should have a role but if the state court departs substantially from state law, and that raises some concerns. the federal court can stop the state court from doing that. i think justice kavanaugh seen it as a compromise position that could work. justice coney barrett, she also seems skeptical of the state legislatures argument state court should play no role. in particular, the petitioners tried to argue, ok, if we have to say state court should play a role, this state court should not be able to police the state regulations. instead they should be limited to procedure or the mechanism by which state law is adopted. what that looks like here is you have gerrymander plan, the state

court cannot strike it down under the state constitution because that would be weighing in on the substance. but if there is some procedural regulation at the state legislature has violated, perhaps the state court can weigh in on that. justice coney barrett seems somewhat skeptical of this procedure. oftentimes times it is difficult to have a clear line between substance and procedure. for example, justice sotomayor or honed in on this and gave the attorney for the state legislature this hypothetical where she is basically like, look, what if you have a state constitutional provision that requires the redistricting plan be adopted in a special session in the state legislature violates that and adopts the redistricting plan during a regular session? is that a substantive or procedural situation? the attorney for the state legislature said that is procedural. i'm sorry, he said it is a substantive decision.

it seems odd because it is clearly procedural. it has to do with how the plan is adopted not what is in it. the distinction is not a clear one. i think justice coney barrett had a problem with that. it's entirely possible you have some version of the theory but not necessarily the strong version of the theory that is arguably preferred by the more conservative justices. amy: i want to thank you for joining us and explaining this i they for most people it sounds like a legal gobbledygook. such a critical effect on voting in the united states and we will continue to follow it. professor tolson teaches law at the university of southern california gould school of law. that does it for our show. on juan gonzalez will be friday, speaking at cuny school of labor & urban studies at 3:00 p.m. and monday at 6:30, an

the cuny graduate center, talking about the history of latinos in america. visit democracynow.org for details. i look forward to seeing folks there as we all listen to juan. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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