mainstream. ♪ >> this is al jazeera. these are the top stories. legendary brazilian footballer pele has died at the age of 82. he had been undergoing treatment for cancer at a south palo hospital. he is considered by many to be the greatest footballer of all time. we are in rio de janeiro with more. >> his death was a surprise but it was also expected. he had been taken to the hospital some weeks ago. he had covid-19 and that

developed into a lung infection, which was being treated for, but what really got him was the cancer that he could no longer fight, because the medicine was not working anymore. >> the most right wing and religiously conservative government in israel's history has been sworn in, prompting the country's ambassador to france to resign in protest. the coalition will be led by benjamin netanyahu returning for his sixth return as prime minister. russia has launched one of its biggest missile strikes on ukraine since the start of the war. ukrainian military says aircraft have shut down 54 missiles. fire crews have been fighting a blaze at an infrastructure site in kharkiv. italy's prime minister says she wants the rest of the european union to follow its lead and bring in mandatory coronavirus tests for travelers arriving from china in response to a surge in a new infections there. they say the country's new

measures may not work if other eu nations do not follow suit. shyness center for disease control has warned that the upcoming new year celebrations could lead to a rise in cases in rural areas. its chief epidemiologist says a new wave could break out in less populated areas as people travel back to their home towns. u.n. aid chief is set to visit afghanistan in the coming weeks. hoping to meet the taliban. a group of foreign ministers has criticized the taliban's actions calling them reckless and dangerous. those of the headlines. the news continues on al jazeera after inside story. ♪

>> after weeks of protest they agreed to take down the barricades. intentions will now calm down. the peace between them. this is inside story. ♪ >> hello and welcome to the program. kosovo's uneasy peace has once again come under threat from protests that lasted weeks. in a display of how delicate the situation is, a single incident got the attention of a police officer and draw in the u.s., eu and serbia to defuse the standoff. the officers -- ethnic serbs

blocking roads with their kids. they have been taken down but the political barricades remain. >> the removal of the barricades will begin. this is not a simple progress and cannot be done in several hours as many have imagined. the barricades will be removed, but distrust is not removed. those who are playing with the existence of serbs in kosovo must know that. we will not allow it, not now, nor in the future. >> we have more. >> there has been tremendous pressure particularly from the european union and united states over kosovo and the serbian government here, to de-escalate the situation. the concern, the fear among european countries and the united states is that russia will open up a second front of the war in ukraine, to open up a second front of confrontation in the heart of europe.

and that is definitely something that the international community is quite concerned that we are seeing here, so that is why the pressure is ramping up over both governments to de-escalate the situation. the situation still here remains fragile and any time, it could escalate again. >> kosovo declared independence from serbia in 2008, 10 years after at least 13,000 people were killed in the kosovo war. where ethnic albanians fought ethnic serbs and the government. the u.s. and eu countries recognized kosovo's independence, but serbia refuses to. kosovo's membership of the u.n. is blocked by serbia's ally, russia. 4000 nato peacekeeping troops remain on the ground after the alliance intervened to end the conflict in 1999. the eu again sponsoring talks between the two sided 2013 but they have delayed the progress. resolving the conflict is one of

the main conditions for both countries to join the block. ♪ >> let's bring in our three guests. from budapest, she is the former deputy prime minister of kosovo and current member of parliament. an associate and fellow at the henry jackson society and serbia analyst. finally, he is a professor of southeast european history and politics and the director of the center for south east european studies at the university of grads. welcome to you all. i would like to begin in belgrade with helena. at the heart of all of this, this is something that flares up from time to time. serbia's refusal to recognize kosovo as an independent state. what are the barriers to that? >> well, i think you know very obviously this is a situation whereby serbia's government feels that a part of its

territory has declared independence. from that point of view, recognition of kosovo is not an option. the second concern that the serbian government has as well is the safety and security of the serbians who live in the north. lately they have been communicating that they do not have the confidence that kosovo authorities will indeed protect the serbs who live in northern kosovo. from kosovo's point of view, anything but a complete independence is unacceptable, so we have two sides with completely exclusive political aims. >> why don't you look after the ethnic serbs in the north of the country? why don't you give them the rights that they need? that is what our guest in belgrade is saying. >> actually, the main deficiency here is the lack of principles and proper arguments, because in kosovo, there are 10 municipalities. the majority of the serbian population, for out of them are

located in the north of the country. it is not a matter of not giving them what they request. belgrade is using them to -- for their qualities in kosovo. kosovo declared independence in 2008. serbia in 2010 declared there were no violations to international law. the declaration of independence of kosovo has been in full accordance with international law. and also, the right of everyone who lives in kosovo, including albanians, turks and other minorities, is a legitimate. so what we are facing now is the last mechanism which is the president of serbia to play and interfere in kosovo affairs. the most important is the state. they have happened by serbian

gangs orchestrated. we have a lot of properties being damaged. we have cars burned. those were signs to kosovo serbs that you do not actually obey kosovo institutions, because we were threatening you. so i think this is the last chain of a fence to pull kosovo under their direction or intervene in kosovo affairs. but as we have seen, it is not sustainable first of all. and second, belgrade needs to let go of kosovo serbs living in the north to live their life in independent kosovo as it is actually the situation with other serbs on the south part. >> i'm going to bring you in and just a second, but i would like to get helena's thoughts on those comments. our ethnic serbs being used as a political tool by belgrade? >> as i always say in my

research, i think politicians across the globe and serbia is not an exception, play the nationalist card when they see it convenient for political games. however the fact that that is sometimes done is not the same as saying that certain concerns, serbs and the north might have are not legitimate. one of the things that is been the most difficult part of negotiations is the association of municipalities of serbs in the north, which is something that they are requiring to do. so i think the situation is more complicated and complex, rather than just one side using serbs from the north for political gains. >> let me bring in florian beaver here. is it much more complicated than one side using the other? >> well, of course it is complicated. it is very clear that the prime responsibility for the escalation we have seen in recent weeks has been the kind of very heavy-handed, kind of

heavy response to co-suppose attempt to introduce uniform license plates across the country by belgrade and encouraging kosovo serbs in the north to respond in a very tense manner. that does not mean that there are not grievances. i would agree that there are concerns. it's not that they don't have the rights, the rights are well established. if it is about making a credible offer by kosovo institutions to cooperate the serbs, to give them a sense that it is their state. this sense of unease is something that they are playing on, it's amplified. and of course, he is controlling. we have to keep in mind that the clinical party of serbs in kosovo is basically controlled by belgrade. -- the political party of serbs in kosovo is controlled. they tell operatives what to do including to withdraw from institutions of kosovo. all of that has been heating up tensions. it goes to a point which helena was saying earlier about kosovo

insisting on independence. that is normal after 13 years of independence and certainly accepted, but why are we still at this place after 10 years of dialogue between serbia and kosovo mediated by the european union? why haven't we moved towards, relations, not recognition, but an environment where those tensions are unimaginable? the primary responsibility lies with serbia not trying to calm the atmosphere and move toward accepting the status quo. it does not mean recognition, but accepting the fact that the government in kosovo acts like a state. >> it's an interesting question. why have these talks filled? why have we not got to a place where you can have an environment for talks? >> actually because the talks failed since as i started saying in the beginning of this

interview, it was not a matter of principles. it was no respect from the agreement. it was always very hard to implement agreements first of all. then it was created within 10 years of intense talks, then at later times less intensive talks. there was a different approach of serbia on the ground. first what was discussed, what they were trying to reach in brussels. during the past 10 years, we had serbia increasing the number of military presence along the border with kosovo. we had the situation worsening rather than improving in the two countries, in particular when it comes to security and presence of kosovo institutions in terms of what is happening in the north. we had the agreement on the inclusion of kosovo serbs in the northern municipals.

as we've seen recently, directly under the directives, in relation to what they were saying earlier on the representation of the serbs. they have one political party representing kosovo and parliament and other institutions. we have seen that the reaction has not been in representation -- on representing the media, kosovo serbs in the north of the south. but more representative policies in kosovo. as a member of parliament in three consecutive terms, i see -- had raised any issue in our daily lives. mostly had been directly. >> can you explain to us what belgrade's point of view is? why all of these talks about all of this? >> from belgrade's point of view or at least how the government is arguing, they are saying any attempt to negotiate has failed because they argue

that kosovo authorities do not seem to be willing to negotiate anymore. basically the statement that we can hear any time he leaves brussels, one particular point of contestation has been the association of serbian minister pawleys and kosovo. if were going to look at it from an objective point of view, one of the big reasons as to why negotiations are not working is because both sides are resorting to blaming the other side and not looking at potential problems that they themselves are posing. that's why i said in the beginning that the picture is complicated. serbia always having its behavior at its best? no. sometimes they are frustrated negotiations most certainly. that is what i am saying. i think trying to see this thing from the other side's point of view and trying to understand the other sides grievances might actually be a better way forward when it comes to negotiations. >> your thoughts and just a second but i want to bring in

florian here. it's difficult to negotiate anything when there is a massive troop buildup on your border, as we have seen happen quite regularly from serbia. is that part of the problem? >> well these troop build up sare more bluster. kosovo is protected by nato-led -- peacekeeping troops. crossing the boundary or border, this would escalate things. serbia does not want to risk a war with nato, much more serious is the fact that serbia has been intervening with kosovo through more illicit, less visible security structures. but i think what is really the case in this, some of the blame it needs to the european union. i would agree with helena that both countries have not been implementing all of the commitments they have signed up to do. the problem is all of the commitments they've signed up to over the last decades including the rate through brussels

agreement nine years ago are lacking in detail. so we do not know what they signed up to. they are like statements of intent because they did not want to commit to a contract. so we do not really know who is to blame for the implementations. both sides have not lived up to commitments they've made on paper, but those commitments are very thin. when helena was talking about the serbian association of municipalities which is supposed to be established, there is great controversy whether that is a layer of government as serbia argues or as kosovo argues, it is an informal network of municipalities. both sides are back because they anticipate some talk of final stages which would entail recognition by serbia and kosovo. that is why it is hard to move forward. >> you are listening intently to what florian was saying. you agree that both sides have actually not implemented the agreements that they were supposed to?

>> absolutely not. for the most important fact that the agreement was supposed to be and the discussion and negotiation are recognition of two countries involving mutual recognition. of the second has been there has been so much changing within this decade in the dialogue as well. this is when i initially mentioned that there are no risk reward values. the principal, the two countries have normalized relations and actually discussed about it, that is not internal affairs of the other country. for example, if we're talking about minority rights or asking for the association of municipalities of serbia and so on, we can ask the question to serbia, are you willing to establish the association of municipalities in serbia or other minorities in syria? second the initial agreement

signed in 2013 and renegotiated in 2015 with additional layers was declared in violation of our constitution. 10 municipalities with the majority of the serbian population engage or are part of the association of serbia minister pawleys. from 2017 22 thousand 20, we had a discussion for the changes of borders. >> what we're hearing from florian is that there needs to be some movement in the talks for both sides to get around the table. if you can agree on some things, the other things do not seem to be a big deal anymore and agreements can be made. having listened to what mimosa is saying, you seem to be far away from the basics. there is no agreement in the near future, right? >> i would agree with that and that is exactly why for instance the car registration plates escalated as much as it did. i know that someone who is not from the region or does not follow the context of the

region, it might seem silly that something like car registration can as clay to the point which it did. for the two sides, this is seen as giving up sovereignty from serbia or substantially gaining sovereignty from kosovo's point of view. that is the reason why it is hard to get the deal, because even at minor deals, administrative deals, at their bottom, at their heart, are about sovereignty. whether kosovo is gaining it or serbia is losing it, which is why it is difficult to come up with a deal that would work. when you add to the fact that the two sides are focused on blaming one another, that is another level of this. >> we are talking about two young states here, both of them. they have fought, battled for national identity after the breakup of yugoslavia. all of that has to play into this. it is about national identity. sovereignty as helena says.

>> indeed it is, but 10 years ago, it looks more promising that these things would become less front and center of the process. i mean, that you really put the incentive on the table by saying if you come to a settlement, membership is more like you are about to join the union. this is where the whole thing has been stumbling. attraction of joining the european union is much less there than it was a decade ago, especially in serbia. there is barely a majority in favor of joining and the government has begun deliberately downplaying the attractiveness for e.u. membership. that really undermines this whole thing, to transform this into a zero-sum game. into something where both parties stand to win. this is where things are stuck in many ways. without an offer for both, especially serbia, which can live with the status quo better than kosovo, there is no way to

move out of it. let's keep in mind the current conflict is triggered by the fact that germany and france put a proposal on the table which would normalize relations without serbia recognizing kosovo. in response to this proposal, things have escalated to the large degree because serbia has no interest in this proposal. because this would actually reduce tensions and would not allow it for the serbian government to use it for domestic purposes. this is the main trigger which brought this escalation about in recent months. >> what florian seems to be saying is that one of the big incentives for peace is the european union membership. in serbia, that is not as popular as it once wasn't even in kosovo, that's maybe not as popular as it once was. what is the incentive for peace for you guys? >> it is very important to focus on the rights of the communities in kosovo including the serbian community. with the package presented, the

creation if independence in kosovo, the rights are more advanced than some of the eu countries. if we are focusing on implementing those rights and cooperating and increasing the domestic dialogue between kosovo institution and the serbian community living there, i think this is a major improvement that includes kosovo internal affairs whereas in relation to serbia, it could be a matter of applicable international law, the same as it was with the international court of justice. kosovo's independence did not violate international law. this should be a good ground. we are talking about serbia, a country that has status for the european union. and i think it has to be more advanced, definitely, in

actually reflecting on the principles and values and rights of communities in serbia for other majorities, other minorities, excuse me. >> were running out of time and it's an interesting point you make. i want to bring it up with helena. there is a law of diminishing returns. the eu has had a role for 10 years, however, it seems to get weaker every stage of negotiation. are we at the stage now where the eu role is simply unhelpful? >> well, i would not say that it is unhelpful. i think the international community's presence is something that is often crucial for de-escalating tensions as we have seen in the last few days and in the summer. i think the international community's involvement in general in serbia is good for both sides to not overly escalate. i would not say that it is not helpful. what i would say is that it is leverage. its ability to respond and influence the relevant actors is decreasing over the years, partly because of confidence,

from serbia's point of view, the confidence that serbia will ever join the block is low because negotiations have been driving on. that's what i think is actually the case. >> is moscow simply turned around and said make peace, peace would happen. >> i don't think so. serbia is pursuing its own interests and agenda. it is looking for protection for russia when it comes to u.n. and serbia has its own interests and will do whatever the current government distinguishes between society at large and the government. the government has an agenda and that is keeping the status quo because serbia is becoming less democratic over the last decade. the government has been really downgrading media freedoms, independent institutions. so the kosovo conflict up some to distract from this issue.

from that point of view, when he sees in his best interest, no matter what other actors might say. >> what do you think of that? what you think of the idea that russia does not have that much of a role to play in serbia anymore? i know you have been critical of those things before. >> actually, i share the opinion. there is a major role that russia plays in serbia. considering recent events, in particular the aggression of russia toward ukraine, and actually of serbia making a clear statement on dividing itself from that invasion. yes, on the international or from serbia, it's not a beneficial point. when it comes to kosovo, i think there has been focused in general to actually try to overturn the events of 99 when serbia lost the war. and trying to gain in dialogue something it lost during the war. and that is very distracting

objectives in another itself, because are not thinking about peace. regardless of what they are saying, you're not thinking about the normalization, you're thinking of how you would switch the reality that is happening on the ground. that had been developed in recent years, including the declaration of independence, the democratic institution. but you are actually trying to claim everything as victory as they did recently north of kosovo with barricades and with actually forcing serbs to leave kosovo institutions. those that have been positioned in northern municipalities. >> i want to thank our guests. and i want to thank u.s. well for watching. you can see the program any time by visiting our website, al jazeera.com. for further discussion go to our facebook page. facebook.com/a.j. inside story. join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at age eight inside story. for me and the whole team here,

have a good night. ♪

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