01/13/23 01/13/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> keep on fighting. i think democracy is something we need to keep on fighting for. amy: "argentina, 1985." that's the name of a remarkable

new film about the trial of the juntas, the civilian court that prosecuted argentina's former military leaders for brutal crimes committed during the u.s.-backed right-wing military dictatorship. the film just won a golden globe and is shortlisted for an oscar. we will speak to the film's director santiago mitre and luis moreno ocampo, who prosecuted the argentine generals and later became the first prosecutor of the international criminal court. >> the democracy is at risk. amy: in from the missing and argentina to the crisis of missing migrants trying to make it to europe today. >> over the last decade, tens of thousands of migrants have sappeared on the journey to europe. a lot of them have drowned in the sea and others have turned

up on the shores of southern europe and northern africa, but they are often buried in unmarked graves, not identified, and their families have no idea what happened to them. very few people are trying to identify these migrants. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. attorney general merrick garland has appointed a special counsel to investigate the mishandling of classified documents discovered at a former office used by president biden and at biden's home. garland said thursday that former u.s. attorney robert hur will lead the investigation. >> i strongly believe the normal processes of this department can handle all investigations with integrity. but under the regulations, extraordinary circumstances you

require the appointment of a special counsel for this matter. amy: garland's announcement came after biden's lawyers reported they'd discovered a second batch of classified documents in the garage of biden's home in wilmington, delaware, with one other record found in an adjacent room. on thursday, biden downplayed the incident, arguing the documents had been under lock-and-key. pres. biden: they discovered a small number of documents with classified markings in storage areas and file cabinets in my home, my personal library. the department of justice was immediately notified. the lawyers arranged for the department of justice to take possession of the documents. amy: republicans on the house oversight committee have promised to launch their own investigation, accusing biden and democrats of a double standard in the treatment of former president trump's mishandling of hundreds of classified documents found at his mar-a-lago residence in

florida. the governors of alabama and georgia have declared states of emergency after severe weather swept across southern states thursday, killing at least seven people. the national weather service reported nearly three dozen tornadoes, including a large and extremely dangerous twister that caused significant damage to downtown selma, alabama. in california, officials have issued evacuation orders for low-lying areas of the salinas river valley where floodwaters threaten to turn the monterey peninsula into an island. forecasters predict more heavy rain into next week. a new study finds ocean temperatures surged to their highest level on record last year in another cleasign that human activity is warming the planet. researchers publishing in advancesn atmosphec sciences fod the top o kilometers of ocean water gained about 10 zettajouleof heat energy in 2022, equivalent to 100 times the world's annual electrical

power generation. warmer ocean temperatures are tied to heat waves, droughts, more powerful hurricanes, and extreme weather events like recent flooding in california. a new study in the journal "science" confirms exxonmobil was fully aware of the link between fossil fuel emissions and global heating but spent decades refuting and obscuring the science in order to make maximum profits. the report finds that exxon, as early as the 1970's, predicted with breathtaking accuracy the disastrous climate path that is now wreaking havoc around the globe. south korean president yoon suk yeol has said his country could build its own nuclear arsenal or ask for u.s. troops to redeploy if the nuclear threat from north korea increases. it's the first time a south korean leader raised such a prospect since the u.s. withdrew its nuclear arms from the south in 1991. the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons said in response -- "suggestions that rejecting agreed international law and norms to develop nuclear weapons are outrageous, and must be globally condemned. adding more nuclear weapons into

an already tense region is like pouring oil onto a grease fire." meanwhile, president biden is meing withapanese prime minister fumio kishida at the white house today as the two nations reinforce their military cooperation in an effort to counter china's strength. japan recently revised its long-standing pacifist position, building up its military capabilities amid increasing regional tensions, including expanding its military base near taiwan. china again warned this week against international interference in the issue of taiwanese independence. a warning to our audience, the following story contain graphic footage and descriptions of police violence. the los angeles police department has released video showing the violent arrest of keenan anderson, a 31-year-old black schoolteacher and father who died just hours after his encounter with police on january 3. the video shows officers tackling anderson to the pavement in the middle of an intersection as he begged for his life, saying, "they're trying to george floyd me."

>> they're trying to george floyd me. they are trying to george floyd me. >> stop it or i am going to tase you. stop it or i'm going to tase you. >> please. please. amy: an officer electrocutes anderson with a taser for nearly 30 straight seconds as several others pin him to the ground, face-first. he's later tased again for five more seconds. anderson was restrained and taken by ambulance to a hospital in santa monica where police say he died 4.5 hours later after suffering a cardiac arrest. the l.a. county coroner's office has not yet ruled on the cause of anderson's death. his cousin is black lives matter co-founder patrisse cullors. after viewing the footage, she told "the guardian" -- "my cousin was scared for his life. he spent the last 10 years witnessing a movement challenging the killing of black people. he knew what was at stake and he was trying to protect himself.

nobody was willing to protect him." the united nations is warning the united states' title 42 pandemic policy is a risk to international human rights and refugee laws and protections. title 42 has been used to block over 2 million migrants from seeking asylum at the u.s.-mexico border. last week, the biden administration announced it would also begin expelling haitian, cuban, and nicaraguan asylum seekers to mexico as part of an expansion of the policy. u.n. high commissioner for human rights volker türk said in a statement -- "the right to seek asylum is a human right, no matter a person's origin, immigration status, nor how they arrived at an international border. these measures appear to be at variance with the prohibition of collective expulsion and the principle of non-refoulement." dozens of democratic lawmakers are urging president biden to revoke the diplomatic visa being used by former brazilian far-right president jair bolsonaro to remain in the u.s.

after he fled brazil ahead of the inauguration of president luiz inácio lula da silva. bolsonaro has been staying in orlando, florida, as he faces at least four criminal probes in brazil. in the letter to biden, the over -- more than 45 house democrats said they were concerned by the attack on the brazilian supreme court, congress, and presidential palace in the capital brasília led by bolsonaro supporters on january 8. on thursday, president luiz inácio lula da silva accused brazil's security forces of complicity in letting the mob of bolsonaro supporters into the government buildings. >> it is important to say there were a lot of people who were on prison detail among the military police. many who were complicit. i am convinced the door to the palace was open to allow these people in because i did not see the door was broken. that means someone facilitated this injury. we are -- this injury. we are going to investigate to

see what happened. amy: two democratic congressmembers from new york introduced the santos act thursday to penalize congressional candidates who lie about their qualifications with fines and even possible jail time. the bill which is an from and for stopping another non-truthful office seeker comes amidst mounting fallout over new york freshman republican congressmember george santos, who fabricated large portions of his resumé and life history before being elected. republican house leaders have refused to hold santos accountable. local leaders where he lives have called for his resignation. arkansas' new governor sarah huckabee sanders signed an executive order on her first day in office this week banning use of the term "latinx" on official arkansas government communications. "latinx" is a gender non-binary term that is often used in place of "latino" or "latina" and is preferred by many as a more inclusive descriptor. moderna has sparked backlash after announcing it would seek to increase the cost of its

covid-19 vaccine by four or five times once it bemes available on the commercial market. the u.s. government currently pays around $26 per dose. senator bernie sanders slammed the news as he spoke on cnn this week. >> the taxpayers of this country who put money into the vaccine in order to protect her health and the lives of the american people are now creating billionaires in the industry, in a company that is going to quadruple prices for the american people. that is outrageous. that is unacceptable. we have got to do something about that. amy: and the world health organization has declared uganda's worst ebola outbreak in re than two decades is over. the four-month outbreak killed at least 55 people, including at least six health workers. this is the who's dr. yonas tegen. >> success is not only of uganda, it is global sectors and of local health community -- so

that ebola is not as scary. ebola is not as devastating as we used to know it. amy: and those are some of the headlines this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show looking at the new film "argentina, 1985" about the trial of the juntas, the civilian court that prosecuted argentina's former military leaders for brutal crimes committed during the u.s.-backed right-wing military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983. the film is based in part on the story of julio strassera and luis moreno ocampo, who prosecuted the argentine generals. ocampo later became the first osecutor of the international criminal court. he will join us later in the show. "argentina, 1985" has been shortlisted for an oscar and just won a golden globe for best motion picture in a non-english language

this is part of the film's director santiago mitre's acceptance speech at the golden globes. >> having fighting to be a better democracy in argentina. keep on fighting -- i think democracy is something we need to keep on fighting for. amy: santiago mitre, director of "argentina, 1985." the film was also just awarded the nbr freedom of expression award from the national board of review. other winners of the awards include the famed director steven spielberg and the film "top gun: maverick." in a moment, we will be joined by santiago mitre. but first, let's turn to the trailer of "argentina, 1985." >> you will be the persecutor and the most important trial in argentines history. i was abducted from my home.

they kept me a prisoner for months. >> since the nuremberg trials, the responsibility of commands lives with the juntas. we must prove they knew about it. >> no country has dared to prosecute a dictatorship. >> this is our opportunity.

amy: that's the trailer for "argentina, 1985." well, on thursday, democracy now! co-host nermeen shaikh and i spoke to the film's director santiago mitre. i began by asking him what it means at an international level for argentina 1985 to win that award on the way to the oscars. >> amazing and huge honor, of course. it amplifies the reach out of the film. an incredible thing. it means many people across the globe are going to watch it, but because his people, especially young generations who we are trying to reach the most, like the movie itself, we will be able to have conversations, the impact and its relevance about

the situation of democracy which i think is one of the things we need to care about a lot. nermeen: you were a young boy when this trial was taking place in 1985. explain how you decided to make a film and how you went about conducting the research. this is one of the most significant events in argeine's political history come argentina's political history. >> i had a lot of admiration of the trial, for the trial. because of the context it was done, one year after the dictatorship ended. the leaders were still pretty powerful and frightening. the region was governed by dictatorships, sthe dision of the government to do this

trial was very brave and very important and formed the basis of a new democracy. prosecutors, the judges were brave doing this because it is something risky. they did notnow where it was going to end. among all the witnesses who survived the concentration camps, the families -- fight and try to bring truth during the dictatorship and ask where the relatives were and sit down and give testimony while most of the people who prosecuted them were still free. the trial had so many layers and worthy of being told nowadays most of the argentine audiences

to not forget in the audiences around the world -- the subject. the film could bring justice, democracy is something one of the topics i think we need to be discussing the most nowadays. this is of course happening all over the world. the war in ukraine happened just one week before in brazil with the coup d'état to lula. and so many places where too many anti-democratic speeches are growing all over the world. nermeen: santiago mitre, for people who don't know the history of this period, the period of the success of military juntas from 1976 to 1983 and what exactly happened during the so-called dirty war,

could you give us some background of what was happening then? >> yeah, the -- it was part of the late cold war. 100 years of history of consternation between one democratic government -- to military government. the military government will was one of the most terrible. shot, killed, disappeared as a system to all the citizens who were againsthem politically or suspected of being against them. they disappeared over 3000 people during those years and killed some more.

it is very frightening. amy: santiago, you said i'm convinced convictions pacitti to transmit reality. you decided to make this not a documentary, though you did use verbatim the testimony of the victims, the heartrending, utterly painful testimony of the victims at the trial, but you, for example, one of the most famous argentine actors plays julio strassera, become some innocence, even though they don't actually look alike. talk about that choice to make this dramatic feature film. >> i believe that fiction is the best way to tell the truth.

did very long research for many years. i tried to speak to most of the people who were participant -- who participated in the trial. those who covered the trial for the newspapers, witnesses, families of witnesses the prosecutor team. the judges. people from the government. i read everything -- the testimonies -- i don't know why, i think it was something i have as a fil maker, i could not change a word from what was said during the hearings. the importance it was transmitting truth i think was one of my goals, so luckily we were shooting in the real courtroom where the trial happened. for so many years -- we were not

able to watch the faces of the people giving testimony. so we work re-creating this so we could see their faces and we can try to imagine what they were feeling at the moment they were giving testimony. nermeen: do you remember what was or from what you have heard, obviously as you said you were a child when the trial occurs in your other was involved, although you are more familiar than most, what was the impact this trial had? the trial that was probably accessible and there was a large public that was present at the trial. what was the impact on society at large, people who knew little of what have been happening? what was the response? >> it is interesting because everybody -- said he wanted to do the trial.

he promised and then he did it, which is something not many politicians do. but at the same time, society was afraid of the trial. they were afraid of a coup d'état what happened. so itas a tense situation. it was a big box of -- is trialhat madeeopleonscious wt they had de andow important it w that well as ociety fight for democracy. actual, some month after the trial ended, some -- i don't know the word in english. all of the country started at people massively went out into the streets to protect this

democracy. amy: tell us, santiago, about the extras in this film. he used the erratum -- verbatim testimony and actors and actresses of the victims. in one of your showings in new york, you talked in the q&a at about the woman who was forced to give birth alone. tell us her story and the reaction of the extras behind. >> is one of the more pain. a physician who was forced to give birth hanuffed in the back of a police car. did not let her -- daughter just

born. while we were doing that testimony, for me, one of the main things during the sequence and i worked with the actress to get the right tone. mixing the footage with our footage with the original footage from the trial. we were crying because being there listening to that testimony in the same courtroom was superpowerful. it was impossible not to cry. but then difficult and as the directors we get too obsessed with -- weere repeating the scene many times. there was one person in the

audience that was crying since the first shot and kept on crying midday and we keep shooting and keeps on crying and we did not understand what was going on with this man. so went out of the set and this man approached her and told her he used to study with the real woman at the university and he thanked her for letting him watch her -- [beep] started to cry again massively. she told me and i was. there were many situations like that. someone in my country does not

have a relation to someone or who suffered one of these horrors. amy: santiago, there's a moment in the film in the courtroom where the prosecutors go up to the mothers have the disappeared who were there with our famous white kerchief's and they had been told by the judge, by the defense team for the generals that these women must take off the kerchiefs because they are seen as banners, everyone knows what they mean. very touching moment. can you talk about the role of the grassroots movement, these women who marched on the plaza week after week to dramatize the stories of the disappeared, eir children, their grandchildren, and the trade commission of argentina? -- the truth commission of argentina? >> one of the true heroes of fighting for democracy during

the dictatorship. asking to wear --the families e kidnapped. the mothers and grandmothers co they keep enormous social work in terms of memory. huge impact. st 10 days ago they could rescue one boy who was kidnapped in the dictatorship. they uncovered his identity. 150 cases or something like that. i don't remember the exact number. and there are many more. many babies that were born during the kidnaps.

they were kidnapped by -- the fight the grandmothers keep doing massively. i love them so much. an important emblem for our country. nermeen: what you hope audiences around the world will learn from this film? >> that you never have to take democracy for granted and justice is the best way for democracy and we all citizens need to get involved. it is not necessary to fight but at least to discuss and see there's a problem growing all over the world. for me, political films, one of

the best things that can happen wi a film, i think it is like people after watching the film they don't discuss only the film but try to tried -- tried to watch and think about other societies. amy: santiago mitre, director of "argentina, 1985." streaming on amazon prime. it has been shortlisted for oscar, just won a golden globe. the film is based in part on luis moreno ocampo who prosecuted the argentine generals, who will join us in a moment. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: canción de alicia en el país by serú girán. the song was released in 1980 and contain valid criticism of

the military dictatorship. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are continuing to look at the new film "argentina, 1985" about the trial of the juntas, the civilian court that prosecuted argentina's former military leaders for brutal crimes committed during the u.s.-backed right-wing military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983. the film is based in part on the story of julio strassera and luis moreno ocampo, who prosecuted the argentine military leaders. ocampo later became the first prosecutor of the international criminal court. this is a short excerpt from the film about their struggle to find a legal team willing to investigate crimes committed during the military dictatorship.

amy: an excerpt from the film "argentina, 1985." earlier this week, i spoke to former argentine procutor luis moreno ocampo who is portrayed in the film. i began by asking him about the significance of thisart of the film. >> well, my job was to investigate crimes. the truth commission -- the victims. i don't need lawyers, i need people with empathy for the victims. that is why i was thinking young people would be better and julio strassera agreed with me and we built a team of young people from -- the youngest was 20 and the oldest was 27. that was amazing. in four months, we were able to produce evidence needed to

convict the generals. amy: so talk about that. talk about what happened, how it was that you came, along with julio strassera who is no longer alive today, to prosecute the generals and ultimately put several of them in prison for life. >> well, julio strassera needed help. we knew each other from the university so he invited me to support him. he gave me a task, i needed to the investation and not with the police because the police were involved with the crime. what we did, we used the victims to produce the evidence. the truth commission, we selected the best cases. then we called the thames, the survivors, asking more details.

who you saw when you were abduct. so we collected all of these documents. in the victims told us about their own torture and how they watched others being tortured. then the killings show people abducted before and the army recognized and killethem but -- killed them in a fight come in a battle. in four months, we did with young kids, meeting the people, we produced the evidence -- we produced 2000 what is in four months. that is the case. the witness testimonies formed the perception of what happened.

amy: for those who are not familiar with the history of argentina and the so-called dirty war, if you can take us back to the time of the coup that led to the disappearances, torture, rape of so many argentines from the late 1970's to the early 1980's, and then how you came at this moment in 1985 to be able to prosecute those who led this coup. >> well, in the 1970's -- in 1973, democracy was back. there was still fighting and right-wing groups -- absolutely

afraid of violence and had country with 50 years of coup d'état, supporting the army in charge of the government to control violence. that is why in 1976 when the military junta -- my mother supported them totally. but in 1983 when democracy was back, one of the candidates proposed to investigate the generals. in a country with 50 years of coup d'état, no democratic -- for 50 years. went to end this coup d'état. people support them. that is why this happened. this political environment. then when we prosecuted the generals after the trial --

basically, the impact of the ju nta trial did not just unveil crimes by the generals, tranorming democracy. people see democracy as i need to protect it. at is what the film is so important. 40 years later, the new generation, the young kids, are learning about this through the movie. so as a producer, i had to prevent future crimes. that is why -- amy: luis moreno ocampo, according to state department document released in 2004, almost 20 years ago, then secretary of state hry kissinger told the argentine foreign minister, if the are things that ve to be done, you

should do them quickly. we won't cause you unnecessary difficulties. explain what he was talking about. because the majority of the people who died in urgent tina or were disappeared were in those early years. we are talking about tens of thousands of people. what did the u.s. have to do with it? >> well, argentina was the battlefield of the cold war. the cold war was enormous but it was hot in the southnd argentina was one of the hottest places. that is what kissinger would say, ok, basically dictators in south america were proxy for the u.s.. but interestingly, jimmy carter came later andimmy carter with human rights against soviet unioand then to be consistent, he also attacked argentina. so jimmy carter became the biggest enemy for argentine

dictatorship. you have to understand, u.s. foreign policy has impact. i don't think from the u.s. we are watching that. amy: and henry kissinger? >> henry kissinger was basically supporting the armies in the south, controlled the gorillas. today, the army in different places control al qaeda and islamic terrorm. it is the same. a new cold war. that is what argentina 1985 is not just the past, it is a future. amy: if you can talk about the role of the mothers of the disappeared in argentina. when democracy now! went to argentina and broadcast, we went to the plaza where the mothers marched.

there is this moving scene in the film where prosecutors -- prosecutor stressera turns to the women in the courtroom and asks them not exactly directly to take off their scarves because the judges said you could not have banners in the room and they were these scarves around their heads that said they were the mothers of the disappeared and you saw and broke his heart to say this. >> that is real. that tally happen. asking the mothers to remove the scarves. but it is about fair trials. the judges were trying to be sure no one complained there were bias. and that is very, very important because it was not just effective, it was fair. the descendants have the right. the jue wanted to show that. i think that is part of the

legacy theovie ishowing. the movie is showing not just the courtroomit is fa trial. t just a court film. edion impa of the crt in society. -- it is showing the impact of e court in society. my famy and other families, to show the impact of the lack of law. amy: i went to get to that, your family. you mention your mother. she was so support of the general. she went to church come the same church as videla and used her as a barometer of how argentina was responding to the trial. people could actually watch? >> my mother is reading the

newspaper. it was a conservative paper. but it showed what was happening. the day after one testimony, my mother called me and said, i still love general videla but you arright, he has to go to jail. so my mother -- we convinced people like my mother, people who are supporting videla. that washe target. the movie in some way is doing th. one month, the movie was watched by one million people. the vice president of the country is talking about the movie. the movie is a memory of the country. amy: luis moreno ocampo, we are

speaking to you and the midst of brazil's january 6, january 8 to be exact, thousands of the far right former president bolsonaro supporters overrunning the capitol, the capitol building, the supreme court, the presidential palace. your thoughts on parallels to what happened in argentina 40 years ago? >> well, what is happening in the u.s., -- democracy is at risk everywhere. the memory and understanding -- that is why the movie is not just about argentina, 1985. the movie is about 1976 and argentina -- the move is about dictatorships in argentina, brazil, and in the u.s..

democracy is at risk. in the movie is to help understand it. amy: former argentine prosecutor luis moreno ocampo, who is portrayed in the new film "argentina, 1985." ocampo later became the first prosecutor of the international criminal court. film is at amazon prime. it is shortlisted for an oscar. coming up, we go to the crisis of missing migrants trying to make it to europe today. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "dispossession" by algiers. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the united nations, european parliament, and many leading human rights groups are condemning greece for putting on trial 24 volunteer rescue workers who helped save thousands of migrants fleeing violence, poverty, and persecution. the greek government has accused 24 individuals connected to the group emergency response centre international of smuggling for giving life-saving assistance to migrants who were trying to reach europe. a spokesperson for the u.n. high commissioner for human rights said -- "trials like this are deeply concerning because they criminalize life-saving work and set a dangerous precedent. indeed, there has already been a chilling effect, with human rights defenders and humanitarian organizations forced to halt their human rights work in greece and other eu countries." a european parliament report described the trial as europe's "largest case of criminalization of solidarity."

this comes as an article in "the new yorker" has just been published called "the crisis of missing migrants." it examines the tens of thousands of people who disappeared on the way to europe. it is written by staff writer alexis okeowo who joins us now. welcome to democracy now! it is great to have you with us. if you could start off by talking about the significance of this trial? >> the trial reminded me a lot of what is happening in italy, which is mostly where i reported this article, where italy has criminalized aid ships who of wanted to rescue migrants in the sea. it also encouraged italian coast guard not to rescue people to the point that italian naval

officials have been charged for not rescuing migrants and 80 c. as you said, part of the disturbing trend of criminalizing life-saving actions to vulnerable people and making it even more risky for people trying to make it over the sea to europe and increasing the likelihood they will die. amy: in your article, write -- "over the past decade, the mediterranean sea and the shores of italy, malta, cyprus, and greece have become a vast graveyard, with at least 25,000 have disappeared in the crossing and are presumed dead." can you lay out the scope of this problem? tell us the story of how it impacts people like the woman you spoke to named alme and her son yafet. these are such poignant, powerful stories. >> absolutely. 25,000, which is the estimate of the amount of people, the number of people who disappeared on

their way to europe, is actually a very conservative estimate and likely much more. over the last decade, at least 25,000 people have disappeared on their way to europe. mostly while crossing the mediterranean. now, a lot of those bodies are at the bottom of the sea. they drown. but some do turn up on the shores of southern europe, northern africa. usually, they are buried in unmarked graves. they are not named or identified and their famies don't really know what happened to them. they can guess buthey don't know. so when i methis young woman alme from eritrea, it brought a stark relief to human level. she had left pressive regime in eritrea and then again in sudan and took a boat from libya, risked her life to get to europe and then settled in germany. she had left her young son behind. he was only eight years old.

she did not want him to risk his life to cross the sea. she assumed she would be able to bring him to germany once she was settled. but because the father of her son had died in shipwreck in 2013 come also making his way from libya to italy, he died in a shipwreck but no one knows where his body is. it has not been identified. so she was told because she can't prove the father of her son died, she can't bring her son to europe. this is a common problem. migrants whose partners have passed find it hard to remarry because they cnot get a certificate. they cannot inherit property. they find it hard to bring their children to join them. this is often because the parents of the child are in the sea or turned up in a place like italy and have just been buried unnamed.

and while there are some efforts to identify these bodies like a lab i spent time with in milan, these efforts are not really funded or supported and they're not really coordinated on a continent-wise level in europe. amy: tell us what happened to alme and her son. for years they did not see each other, but talk on facetime almost every day. >> after almost nearly a decade, she got in touch with a lav in milan where i spent time and they have been working on identifying hundreds of bodies from a few shipwrecks in illegals up she believes the father of her son was in one of the shipwrecks. they were coordinating for years to get dna from her son to see that matched any of the samples taken from the shipwrecks. in portland, it didn't. so that could mean he was in

another shipwreck or at the bottom of the sea. she can try to apply the claim of presumed death and hopefully get him to come that way. now he is a teenager. but it is just a heartbreaking situation. she has been germany for almost a decade and has not seen her sent in person, always on facetime. she told me, you know, i know the father of my son has died but no one will believe me and no one will give me an answer as to what happened to him. this is something -- the scientists at the lab i spent time with in milan told me every person deserves to know if their loved one is alive or dead, but it seems like some people are more deserving than others because when bodies do turn up in souther europe, ther's no effort by the state or the police or any authority to get a name to these people. to give them humidity.

-- humanity. amy: you right 13% of body said disappeared have been recovered according to estimates. the rest are still at the bottom of the mediterranean or decomposing in north african deserts." what needs to happen to not only recover these bodies but to prevent people from dying and talk about how large some of these ships are containing, what, sometimes between 500 and 1000 people? >> absolutely. there are two lines of thought. one is for those 13% of bodies that we do have, we can have malta, greece, italy come to places where most of the bodies turn up, actually take dna samples, photographs, put this in a database so all european countries can't access as a way for families to identify their loved ones -- can access as a

way for families to identify their loved ones. like italy has done once before, recover the votes from the sea. itan be expensive but it is doable. it is like they are dropped in the sea and forgotten. there is a way to deal with that. as i talked with the international red cross, for those who don't have bodies, there is a way to interview survivors, smugglers, reach out to the communities from which the passengers came in order to devise a probable passenger manifest so that you can at least let families know, this is probably what happened. someone saw or knew your loved one was on this boat and they did not make it. there is a way to do that and there is an effort to do that but not with much support. you know, for example, some of these shipwrecks have just been atrocious. there was one in 2015 were

basically it was a large fishing boat, 20 meters, crammed with 1000 people. there were people under the floorboards, young people under the floorboards, people under the hull. the scientists working on it later said it reminded them of slave ships, the way people were packed on there. peoplead to pay extra for lifejackets after already paying some $2000 just to board the boat. so it is so inhumane the way people are being forced to cross to europe. and that is, by the way, because there are not safer migrant crossings come open migrant routes. we are forcing migrants to do this, to flee oppression and circumstances in this inhumane way and a lot of them don't survive and not even dignity given to their dead bodies for

their families to identify who they were. amy: to any countries kee databases? >> not really. the country that has done most is italy because they have this lab. it is not really enough. it is staffed by a lot of volunteers doing this on their own time. these countries have said they will do a database but none of them have submitted any info yet. amy: when you talk about the reason migrants,, try to leave as they flee persecution, violence, poverty? >> a lot of them are fleeing repression, violence, economic circumstances, poverty, and also climate change. drought, extreme weather. the ways of life have just

become unlivle in a lot of places they are leaving. amy: so often caused by the countries there fleeing to that are trying to prevent them from coming in. >> exactly. exactly. and a lot of them don't want to leave. they don't want to leave their homes, parents, children. yet they do. it is astounding to me the extent to which people risk their lives to get to europe. to die or be turned away. amy: alexis okeowo, thank you for being with us, staff writer for "the new yorker" and author. their latest piece for "the new yorker" is headlined "the crisis of missing migrants: what has become of the tens of thousands of people who have disappeared on their way to europe?" we will link to it at democracynow.org. and a fond farewell to our remarkable video fellow mary conlon. thank you for all you've

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