power and politics, on al jazeera. >> syria is struggling to respond to the earthquake disaster, but how much of that is down to politics? the regime in damascus insists protests and boycotts are preventing aid from reaching devastated areas. hello. welcome to the program.

i'm adrian finighan. they are the worst earthquakes to hit turkey and syria in decades. scenes of devastation have emerged on both sides of the border. with thousands of people dead, rescue teams are working around the clock to find survivors. humanitarian assistance is essential, particularly in northern syria, but are politics hindering the response? >> years of conflict and now earthquakes. the challenge of delivering aid to northern syria is now even tougher. >> in a way, we had grown accustomed to war, but this earthquake happened all. we were very, very scared. we got frightened with years of conflict, but this was different, just horrific. >> much of this region includes rebel held areas badly affected by years of conflict. separating politics from

international aid is difficult. >> it would be quite ironic if not even counterproductive for us to reach out to a government that has brutalized its people over the course of a dozen years now. instead, we have humanitarian partners on the ground who can provide the type of assistance in the aftermath of these tragic earthquakes. >> resources are limited, and routes used to transport aid have disrupted. >> the situation is being handled by the government. as we know, the government's capacity is very limited in terms of rescue, in terms of equipment. the government has very little capacity. >> humanitarian groups are calling for u.s. sanctions to be temporarily lifted to ease the delivery of aid and encourage countries to help.

a message echoed by syria's government. >> even those countries want to send humanitarian assistance -- they cannot use the airplane cargo because of the sanctions. >> syrian president bashar al-assad has been accused of withholding aid and services from rebel-held areas to punish the opposition. but with a major response needed to cope with such a widespread disaster, humanitarian groups are calling for politics to be set aside both at home and abroad. >> let's bring in our guest for today's discussion. for ankara, we are joined by an associate professor. from brussels, we have the

executive director of a nongovernmental organization that provides grants for development projects in syria, and from norman, oklahoma, the director of the center for middle east studies at the university of oklahoma. gentlemen, welcome to you all. syria, as we heard, says it should control the delivery of aid into all of syria. it does not recognize the nongovernmental organizations working in the north and northwest. is syria playing politics with aid? >> to be honest, when we are talking about syria, the country is already divided into three sections, and different powers are controlling each section. in the northeastern part, the pkk, pid, curtis-influenced area.

at the center, damascus through aleppo, and on the northwestern part, we have the opposition forces, so in each area, they have different difficulties after the earthquake, but the most affected areas are especially under the regime control, under the syrian salvation government. under the government, i think the death toll reached more than 2180, and the official count is 1002 hundred 50, so different parties make the administration a little more difficult, but this may give it political advances in the region for the military structure of syria for

the future. we will see, but the first thing to be conducted by the international community and the united nations should be to focus on humanitarian aid in all the regions with ngo's and international organizations. >> i'm sorry to interrupt you. how can the united nations do that if syria's government insists that all of the aid delivered to syria has to go through it? >> for the regime, there might be some difficulties, but i think for the opposition party, it will not be a problem because already, there are international organizations working in that region. i think the negotiations should be given -- they should be concentrated on coming together and finding solutions because today is not the day for political power clash.

today, they need basic needs, shelter. humanitarian -- food, water, that kind of thing, and that should be the first thing all should concentrate on. >> does the syrian government, still a pariah in much of the international community, but under u.s. and eu sanctions -- does it have any role to play in the distribution of aid to rebel-held areas of the country if it accepts assistance? what measures could or perhaps should be put into place to ensure that aid reaches its intended recipients? >> thank you for having me. if i may start quickly by saying that no matter what the syrian government says, the united nations has a mandate to deliver humanitarian aid to the northwest of syria as the

cross-border resolution was just renewed in january and has a mandate to do that until the end of june, so there is a clear mandate for the united nations to be able to do that. what we really need, though, at the moment is not only equipment and material but international rescue teams. i want to salute the egyptians who all -- who have already sent the first international rescue team in the areas controlled by the opposition, but rescue teams are needed in all affected areas. there might be a need to coordinate with the syrian government, but i think they should be the interlocutor of the international community, not the syrian government in damascus. i think international rescue

teams can make their way to the most affected areas in syrian government control. the challenge, as the professor has mentioned, is for areas under the control of the salvation government. it is not really one area, it is two areas. bid live is an hds-sponsored government, and the area under turkish control -- idlib is an hds-sponsored government. for areas directed toward the turkish government, aid is not really a problem, as we do not have to deal with terrorist organizations. for idlib, that is a challenge. we need immediate solutions for that because two of the

largest-hit cities in the northwest of syria are in the idlib province. they can easily be accessed. everything is in place for an international response. now it remains to be seen how we can allow for international units to go in and be effective. the last thing that remains is making sure the road is in good shape -- >> as of now, that crossing remains close, doesn't it, due to the damage in the infrastructure? >> no, the crossing is open. there are small logistical challenges on the road to the border crossing.

it should be fully functional by the end of the day, and the turkish government has made alternatives, so at the moment, we have three border crossings that are open. one is operational. our two alternative border crossings that are fully functional, easily accessible. >> 90% of people in northern syria were already dependent upon humanitarian aid before this earthquake. a natural disaster on this scale could not have hit a more vulnerable population. as we heard, it is difficult at the moment. for a while, not a single route was open for aid.

time is of the essence. people are dying. what should be done and by whom as our fellow humans suffer? surely now is the time to put politics aside, isn't it? >> it is the time to put politics aside, and this may offer the chance for some kind of boost and change of policy. you ask in the beginning about if people are playing politics. of course they are. every one of these three areas are controlled by different governments and different regimes and are playing politics with food. the united states has put very severe sanctions on syria. it is impossible to send money to loved ones through banks. all of the banking codes have been blocked. the united states controls all of syria's oil and is trying to make sure no oil gets to syria. that means machines cannot run,

and assad is doing the same with rebel-controlled areas. he wants to control what food gets to the rebels, and it is the same with the rebels and the aid coming into rebel areas. this is -- it is time for politics to be put aside, and i think that the international community needs to rush aid in to all three of these enclaves, particularly the northwest, the rebel-controlled area, and the syrian area. the regions have been devastated. my only in-laws who live there, many of these buildings around them have collapsed, and that is true for many areas. they need aid desperately. >> the u.s. has ruled out delivering aid via the syrian government as we heard at the beginning. they said it would be ironic if not even counterproductive to reach out to a government that has brutalized its people over

the course of a dozen years now. how will the u.s. government get aid to people? >> the u.s. is not going to get aid into this area. they are going to get aid into the northeast and northwest, and that is fine. the point is that the international community -- america can sit aside on this. but we have seen egypt reach out. sisi has reached out to the syrian government. the syrian government is going to be involved in this one hour the other. the red cross is working within the syrian government controlled part. so is the red crescent. those are two excellent agencies that can deliver aid, and, you know, if the united states can deliver aid to those agencies, then they don't have to go through the government directly. of course, the government is involved in delivering trucks and delivering aid, and the military is going and getting people out.

the syrian government is trying to respond. of course, the spotlight is on the government. can it be effective? syrians are in despair because their government has been so ineffective. the national budget of syria this year is about $3 billion, which is -- the reconstruction of syria needs tens of billions of dollars. the government is not in any shape -- way or shape capable of carrying out the aid that needs to be delivered into syria. >> we will come back to this point in a few minutes. turkey also of course badly affected by this earthquake. it is understandably focused on its own citizens right now, but to what extent does it hold the key to access to northern syria? even though the roads on both sides of the border at the moment are very badly damaged.

>> actually, today, we have a very close connection with the system under the turkish influence, so they are very, let's say, connected to the turkish administration system, and they are working in cooperation with them. the worst case scenario in the earthquake happened in the region. in turkey, 10 provinces were affected, and the area is bigger than 100 square kilometers. it is the area of iceland or portugal hour hunk area, like a whole country. that is why the first day, it was very difficult to fix all the roads and other things, but today, most of them are working, and the roads will be connected

and open, as already mentioned by our friend from brussels. the gates are working, and a third one will be operational, i think, to the end of today, so the aid system will properly work also, but in some regions, we have seen, for example, the pkk is also ignoring this past by rocket systems. the terrorist organizations are using also these that conditions for attack, so this should be prevented as well and taken under control because the security forces are already concentrating on rescue efforts. so this is difficult, but it is working. so the community can concentrate on that, and it can work. >> i'm sorry to interrupt, but

you say these areas should be taken under control. by whom? >> of course, security forces in the region, but when the international rescue teams reach to the area, the actual security forces can return to their actual work and concentrate on security as well because now the military and other security forces are concentrating on search-and-rescue, so terrorist organizations are using this as an opportunity, and the current administration also, to deteriorate it, so that's why i think more search-and-rescue teams and other humanitarian aid materials should reach to the point and secure -- acuity forces and maintain their security as well. >> you say various groups are taking advantage of the situation. to what extent will the syrian government try to do the same and take advantage of the

situation for its own ends? >> for sure. all the political parties may try to use it, but it is not very easy as well because they already themselves have huge problems in their own area as well, so i don't think that they will try to use this as an opportunity to attack and live -- it live region -- is an opportunity to attack idlib region and other places. some percussions should be taken, and the international community should focus and not ignore as well. >> what affect will the international sanctions on syria, having people in the northwest of the country before the disaster? >> international sanctions have no impact on emergency response and humanitarian aid.

there are wide reaching, far-reaching exemptions. >> as we said, 90% of people in northern syria were already dependent on humanitarian aid before the earthquake, so the sanctions must have been having some impact upon them. >> well, i was getting to that. they are dependent on remittances, financial transfers into the country because of the fact that we are only left to use a system that is not scalable and very difficult and convoluted to use, so the big impact is on remittances, on peer-to-peer financial distributions, etc., so what

financial systems are doing is increasing the cost, and i agree with what the professor said, that the syrian government is absolutely inefficient, but not only inefficient. i would say also criminal. the way they are approaching all disasters that have affected syria and also how they are approaching the business aspect of the earthquake, so therefore, we need international rescue teams. we cannot leave this to the hands of the different authorities on the ground. we absolutely need an international coordination mechanism and international rescue teams to be on the ground in all areas of syria. >> i wanted to ask you, who will coordinate the response, to what extent of international actors to deal with syrian government

need? >> we need to create a coordination mechanism. how to do that, there are different ways. at one point, it was the united nations during that coordination, but as i mentioned, we cannot rely on them to be able to coordinate aid for the northwest of the country. syria has a feel for the protection mechanism within turkey as influencing the production mechanism, so they can do this if there is political will within the european union to basically lead the coordination effort, and the entry of international rescue groups. they already have vehicles on the ground in damascus, and therefore, they can take the lead on that, and they are

trustworthy from the different political powers and the different areas. otherwise, it can be left to a coordination mechanism among the syrian ngo's. that has been -- that has happened before. coordination was created for shelter to accept people. there is previous president where there has been coordination mechanism that worked from one side in government-controlled areas and other ngo's operating in the northwest of the country. >> for years, the international community has fudged its policies toward syria. to what extent could this tragedy, do you think, be a catalyst for change, for the world to take a different approach to syria?

>> it is time for a change. we have seen in the arab world, the uae, bahrain, now egypt has come forward -- jordan has normalized relations with damascus and tried to influence the situation in syria. i think saudi arabia has talked about it is eager to find some common ground. they want concessions first. this is a moment where one needs to look at the sanctions regime, which has been extremely tough on syria, and question if it is working. because it has failed. it has not changed the political architecture in syria one iota, but it has starved people. it has hurt the most vulnerable, the women and children mostly. 90% of syrians are living under the poverty line. there's almost no electricity. there's no fuel, and the government has -- the government

and the syrian economy have come to a standstill, and this is not a way to try to revive this -- the future of syria and syrian people in this time of great need, so i think it is a time for the international community to revise its policies, which just have not been working. >> so the people of syria desperately need the sanctions to be lifted. syria itself needs to be reintegrated into the international community. now is the time, you are saying, to bring syria in from the cold, but is the syrian government to be trusted? will it try to take advantage of the disaster for its own ends? >> of course it is going to take advantage. everybody is taking advantage of this in one way or another, and assad is going to try to take advantage. he has reached out to egypt. egypt has reached out to him. he is in the process of try to normalize relations with turkey. of course, it will be extremely

difficult because of the enclave in the north, and turkey has been a traditional defender of the insurgency and arab opposition groups. this is a difficult path ahead, but there really is no alternative. the international community has spent the last 11 years trying to destroy assad and the syrian army and bring about lyrical change. it failed. it gave up. -- bring about political change. it failed. it gave up. we saw the rise of al qaeda in afghanistan. syria got spooked and left assad in place. if the international community cannot just starve the syrian people forever. >> jordan has also reached out to president assad. just a very quick word on the presence of russia and iran in syria and where they fit into this briefly. we have about a minute left. >> russia and iran have been

rolling back aid, which is one of its major problems. ron almost doubled the price of its oil sales to syria. it makes it difficult to help us on -- to help assad, for the west to step in. because we are fighting this war in ukraine and our enemies are russia and iran. if we can help syria, many people say let's do it, and unfortunately, that's the kind of thinking that has prevailed so far and perhaps it's time we change that thinking now that we see the suffering. >> many thanks to all of you. and thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to the website al jazeera.com. for further discussion, join us on our split page -- join us on

our facebook page. and of course, the conversation continues on twitter. thanks for being with us. we will see you again. ♪

man: what i'm trying to do is tell people to look again at something that they haven't really looked at. it's the visual attempts to try to figure what is los angeles. woman: this is not just like a fad. the, like, needs to be space for us, not just in the art scene. i think in everything. woman 2: because we're looking at certain experiences or the past, we are, like, either preparing ourselves for the future or changing the future. we're, like, feeling like we need to speak up. [funk music playing] ♪