02/16/23 02/16/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> it was not like any other earthquake. the roads were destroyed, our houses were demolished. whole cities were flattened. no one knows how we are going to live. amy: as the death toll in turkiye and syria nears 42,000, continuing to rise, go to southern turkiye to two cities

hit hard by the devastating earthquakes. more than a million people have been left homeless, including many syrian refugees. then we look at the spiraling global economic crisis from pakistan to sri lanka to lebanon where protesters today attacked six banks, setting some of them on fire. >> what are you lebanese people waiting for? where are the human rights? there is no electricity, no water. nothing at all in this country. they see us as sheep. we won't stay silent. amy: then more on the bomb trains in ohio where a train derailment turn the community in east palestine into a toxic disaster zone. the train company norfolk southern refused to attend last night's first town hall, leaving

many questions unanswered. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the combined death toll in turkey and syria from last week's massive earthquakes is coming to 42,000. many more expected to die or have been not counted. earlier today, rescue workers pulled a 17-year-old girl out of the rubble of a collapsed building in the turkish province 248 hours after the earthquake struck. in syria, relief workers blamed u.s.-led sanctions against the syrian government for hindering rescue and recovery efforts. this is mohammed khalil, a medical worker in aleppo. >> sanctions on syria lead to a shortage of drugs some chronic diseases and for cancer and

chemotherapy treatments. we urge the u.s. anwestern countries to lift those sanctions on us. syria has been plagued with a great humanitarian censorship for 13 years and is still struggling now. amy: after headlines, we will be joined by two guests in turkiye for the latest. a russian court on wednesday sentenced journalist maria ponomarenko to six years in a penal colony for spreading false -- spreading "false information" after she accused russian forces of bombing a theater in mariupol, ukraine, last march. amnesty international has accused russia of a war crime over the bombing, which killed hundreds of people. moscow blamed the explosion on ukrainian nationalists. addressing the court before her sentencing, ponomarenko concluded with the defiant words, "no totalitarian regime has ever been as strong as before its collapse." in buffalo, new york, the white

teenager who murdered 10 people in a racially-motivated attack in a predominantly black neighborhood last may in a supermarket has been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. there were dramatic scenes in the courtroom wednesday as family members of the victims confronted the gunman, who was just 18 years old when he published a racist manifesto online before using a legally-purchased bushmaster ar-15-style semiautomatic rifle to systematically seek out and murder black people. the killer live-streamed the attack on social media. this is barbara massey, sister of shooting victim katherine massey. >> you come to our city and decide you don't like black people? you don't know a damn thing about black people. we love our kids. we never go to know neighborhoods and take people out. amy: massey was interrupted as a man lunged at the gunman.

-- convicted mass murderer. he was restrained by court officers as the gunman was rushed from the courtroom. the erie county district attorney later said the man would not be charged for the outburst. this is simone crawley, granddaughter of shooting victim ruth whitfield, speaking during victim impact statements. >> we all know that pure hatred and motivation behind your heinous crimes and we are here to tell you you failed. we will continue to elevate and be everything that you are not. everything that you hate. and everything that you intended to destroy. we are extremely aware you are a pond of a larger organized network of domestic terrorists. to that network today, we as a people are unbreakable. amy: the mass murderer apologized and said "i don't want anyone to be inspired by me and what i did." in el paso, texas, a shooter killed one person and injured

three others wednesday at a shopping mall. the shooting took place at the cielo vista shopping center, which is located across a large parking lot from the walmart where 23 people were killed in a 2019 racist shooting massacre. according to the gun violence archive, there have been 72 mass shootings since the start of 2023, an average of more than one per day. in chicago, the father of the shooter at last year's 4th of july parade was indicted wednesday, accused of helping his son obtain a firearms license in 2019. 21-year-old robert crimo is charged with 117 felonies over the attack, which killed seven people and left 48 others wounded. meanwhile, hundreds of michigan state university students in east lansing rallied at the state capitol wednesday and held a silent sit-in protest to demand lawmakers enact new gun control laws following monday's mass shooting which killed three people, critically wounding five.

january 6 special prosecutor jack smith has subpoenaed president trump's former chief of staff mark meadows to testify and provide documents about trump's efforts to overturn his defeat in the 2020 election. meadows was involved in an infamous phone call in which trump pressured georgia's secretary of state to find 11,780 votes after trump's narrow loss to biden in georgia. meadows also reportedly burned documents in his office fireplace in the white house during the final weeks of the trump administration. this comes after former vice president mike pence said this week he will invoke the constitution's speech or debate clause to oppose a subpoena from special counsel jack smith. meanwhile, portions of a report by an atlanta-area special grand jury into donald trump's actions to subvert the results of the 2020 election will be released today after a fulton county judge ordered them to be made public. district attorney fani willis is considering whether to bring criminal charges against trump

and his allies. grand jurors heard from 75 witnesses, including trump's attorney rudy giuliani, south carolina republican senator lindsey graham, and mark meadows. willis is also investigating a group of 16 georgia republicans who served as fake electoral -- presidential electors for donald trump. in virginia, republican governor glenn youngkin has blocked a bill that would ban search warrants to access personal data on menstrual tracking apps. the measure was put forward by democrats in an effort to prevent private health information from being used in prosecutions related to abortions following the overturning last year of roe v wade. abortion is currently legal in virginia until the 27th week of pregnancy, but youngkin is pushing to enact a 15-week abortion ban and favors prosecuting providers who violate abortion laws. a warning to our audience, our next stories contain graphic

footage. the united nations says 73 people are missing and presumed dead after their inflatable rubber boat deflated off the coast of libya tuesday. 11 bodies were recovered along with the tattered remas of their boat. last year, the u.n.'s international organization for migration recorded 1450 deaths of migrants attempting to cross the mediterranean and more than 130 people have died so far this year. in panama, a bus carrying 66 u.s.-bound migrants plunged off a cliff wednesday, killing at least 39 people, including children. some of the victims are believed to be from ecuador and cuba. the migrants had traveled through the darién gap, a perilous stretch of jungle between colombia and panama. inclement news, and team reports and dr. because enormous glacier is on the verge of collapse with warm water seeping under the weakest parts of the glacier and melting it from below. researchers deployed robotic

summary to penetrate the vast ice sheet which is roughly the size of florida. they found the glacier is susceptible to rapid and reversible ice loss that could raise global sea levels by more than half a meter. it's collapse could destabilize surrounding glaciers that would raise the earth's oceans fire further three meters, or nearly 10 feet. and world bank president david malpass said wednesday he will resign his post by the end of june, nearly a year before his five-year term is set to expire. malpass was nominated to head the world bank in 2019 by then-president donald trump. he previously served as chief economist at bear stearns for the six years leading up to the investment bank's collapse at the start of the great recession in 2008. last september, malpass came under increased pressure from the biden administration to resign after he fumbled his answer to this question from david gelles, "the new york times'" climate reporter. >> vice president poor was here

earlier today. he referred to you in his remarks publicly as a climate denier. would you clear the air? do you accept the scientific consensus that the burning of fossil fuels is dangerously warming the planet? >> i -- i don't know all of the instances that you're talking about. i've been very pleased to have u.s. government support across the board on the initiatives that we have been taking. some people that are critical i think are unfounded. they may not know what the world bank is doing. amy: in a statement, the climate justice group oil change international said -- "the world bank group still funds more fossil fuels than any other multilateral development bank. ending this support for oil, gas, and coal needs to be priority number one in the next six weeks ahead of the bank's spring meetings." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman, joined by my democracy now! co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: the death toll from last week's massive earthquakes in turkiye and syria is nearing 42000 and continuing to rapidly rise. over 36,000 deaths have been reported in turkiye and nearly 6000 in syria. the world health organization has described northwestern syria as the "zone of greatest concern." the area was already facing a humanitarian crisis prior to -- after nearly 12 years of war. nato secretary general jens stoltenberg has described the earthquakes in turkiye as the deadliest natural disaster in a nato country since the alliance was formed. survivors in turkiye say they have been left with nothing. >> it was not like any other earthquake. the roads were destroyed. our houses were demolished.

whole cities were flattened. we can feed ourselves here but no one knows how we are going to live. amy: in the syrian city one woman described being rescued after five days. >> we were trapped for five days. we could not move. we were calling god to save us. me and my son were calling god to save us. thank god we survived, but my daughter left us. when i was in the corror, i told my daughter there is an earthquake. she ran. may her soul rest in peace. three of us were stuck in the corridor and the rocks fell on us. my daughter directly died. may her soul rest in peace. me and my son are alive. we were trapped. we could not move. we did not have food or water. we wanted water only. it was also dark. we called for help a lot.

no one heard us. amy: we're joined by two guests. hisyar özsoy, deputy chair of the peoples' democratic party and member of turkish parliament who is in southern turkiye. it is in the largest kurdish-majority city in turkiye, where he has been helping with disaster relief since the earthquakes. and othman moqbel is the ceo of action for humanity, the parent charity of syria relief, and his recent piece for middle east eye is titled "what else should happen before the world takes syrians' suffering seriously?" we welcome you both to democracy now! othman moqbel, we recognize there is something like a four second delay as you stand there at ground zero in turkiye and yet so many syrian refugees were already there before the earthquake.

can you talk about what is happening there and what you think needs to happen? >> thank you very much. to be honest with you, i have seen in the last few days what i have not seen in all of my life. i have been working in the humanitarian sector for the last 25 years and what i have seen is totally devastating, something i have not seen in all of my life. as you know, the syrians have been suffering from wars and poverty for the last 12 years. and now they're suffering after this earthquake. i have seen people in the last few days without shelter, without food, without any kind of heat. they are in the very cold weather here in the southern part of turkiye and syria.

the syrians and the turkish people here in these areas, they need a lot of help most of they need a lot of support. i don't think the turkish government can cope with this huge disaster. so therefore, the international community needs to do more. just to give you an example, last year of the humanitarian aid plan, the international humanitarian aid plan, less than 50% of the promises reached the syrians. we don't need 100%, we need to hunter percent, 300% because this is another disaster -- we don't need 100%, 300% because this is another disaster. they came from city to city and the northern city and now to the south for safety and security.

but now they have nothing. so we hav obligation. we have a duty to support. the international community needs to do more. it is not enough from the u.k. government to give only $5 million for this disaster. we are looking for more from the u.k. government and allther governments, especially the united states government. we want more help. this is obligation. this is a duty. for all of us to come and help and support. as i said earlier, poverty, war zone, and now earthquake hit the syrians and they are in a very dire situation, very difficult situation with the cold weather. nermeen: othman moqbel, what help, apart from of course you

said about the u.k., whatever assistance they have given, which you say is inadequate, what other countries in europe have contributed aid? has the u.s. donated anything to assist the syrians impacted by this devastating earthquake? >> until now, we have not seen much. as you know, because the crossing were affected as well by the earthquake, so thursday and friday morning, some of the trucks started going inside syria. as far as i know, these trucks related previously agreed with different charities and one of the charities is our charity -- not related to the earthquake. after that and after the crossing was fixed, so some

trucks and aid started going in. but as i said, if the u.k. only gives 5 million, you can't understand what about the others. because of that, you can't see that turkiye has -- there was a report published and the u.k. last year shows $.30 of humanitarian aid around $5.5 billion. this is higher than any other european country. this is after the united states who spent around $10 million for humanitarian aid. our friends, the europeans and european governments, they need to do more in order to support the syrians. the syrians have been suffering from all kinds of disasters the last 12 years and we say enough is enough. this is obligation and we have to do our best to support them and find a solution

for this disaster. long-term solution. nermeen: can you explain, right about this in the piece. what are some of the constraints to getting aid to northwest syria, which has been so severely impacted? and what are the governments or institutions that are making aid delivery more difficult? >> number one, as you know, the crossing. as you know, in january, the security council renewed the crossing of one or two borders to syria. the main one is affected heavily by the earthquake. i think the turkish authorities managed to fix it, but i think

by thursday or friday -- at this crossing is not enough. i think one of the main problems is one crossing is not enough. two days ago, i think the security council allowed another two crossings for humanitarian aid i think for three months, if i am not mistaken. so these are not enough. this is one of the main problems. the second one is you know the supply chain between turkiye and syria, because the syrians inside depend on fd to come from turkiye. and because of the earthquake in the south of turkiye was affected heavily, so huge need here as well in the south of turkiye. so therefore, there was a shortage as well of goods. therefore,ecause we as a charity action for humanity, we've been working inside syria

for the last 12 years, so we have warehouse, we have a lot of things inside. but what we have finished in the first two or three days. after that, the prices have increased dramatically. and the suppliers cannot supply us with more goods. so this means we need more crossings now and we need more ways to supply the goods inside syria and the third one, funding. whatever we have raised as a charity for the community until now is not enough. goods, thank god, we have other ngos we have been in discussion with them to support -- some of them have already promised good money. but governments need to come

forward and put more money to support the syrians in the north of syria and the turkish. bear in mind, because this disaster now affected turkiye -- 23 milon of turkish people are affected by this as well stop therefore, we need to support both sides and we need to put more effort inside syria to stop the suffering of the syrians. america you are ceo of action for humanity. our condolences not only for the entire crisis but for the loss in your own action for humanity family of aid workers, which is what all of these groups are dealing with, their own health workers, not to mention doctors and nurses, hospitals collapsing . but i wanted to ask your thoughts on lifting sanctions against syria. ferguson writes, the assad regime and its allied russia allegedly are preventing

international aid from entering rebel held areas, that we have heard some aid has gotten through. the lifting of sanctions and how difficult is it to get aid to the rebel held areas and how does that comre to aid in the syrian government areas in syria? >> there is no doubt sanctions must be lifted. we should have now, especially at this critical time, we should lift the sanctions and allow the humanitarian aid to go in. we have seen from the first and second day, trucks going to the regime area but we have not seen that at least since the fourth or fifth day. and that is still not enough for the northwest of syria. we have to find different ways. i will tell you for example, the

u.k. government has changed the system of immigration to allow the people of ukraine to come in, which is great. to support our neighbors, our friends in another disaster. but at the same time, what they have done to allow syrians to give them more stability come to work hard to lift sanctions in order for humanitarian aid to reach the syrians. so this is sometimes where people feel a double standard. so when it comes to humanitarian, should be one standard we deal with everyone on the same scale and the same standard. so therefore, they have all the western governments and i hope the united states can lead as well on this regard to find long-term solutions for the syrians, especially those -- you know in the north and northwest

of syria, have 4.8 million syrians stop 4.1 of them depend on aid. depend on charities and humanitarian agencies to come and provide them with water, food, shelter, and medicine. this is too much. enough is enough. we as a charity have been working here for the last 12 years, even this crisis affected us heavily. and all other humanitarian agencies who have been working here in the south of turkiye and the north of syria. so we lost four members of our staff and their families. and we lost 10 members of families of all our staff in turkiye and syria. we have around 500 staff inside

syria, 70 here in the south of turkiye. every one of them has lost family member or members. colleagues, and friends. this is for the first time i see in my life that the first group of people who are affected by this crisis are humanitarian. therefore the humanitarians, we need to support them. we need to help them in order to continue their work. to be honest with you, all the pain they have still going and doing the work. i have seen in my eyes that their commitment and determination to continue helping others. amy: othman moqbel, we want to thank you for being with us, ceo of action for humanity, speaking to us from southern turkiye.

we go now to diyarbakir where we are joined by hisyar özsoy, deputy chair of the peoples' democratic party and member of turkish parliament who represents diyarbakir in southern turkiye, the largest kurdish-majority city in turkiye, where he has been helping with disaster relief since the earthquakes. hisyar özsoy, can you describe what is happening where you are, how similar is it to where othman moqbel is and what you think needs to happen right now? >> thank you forhe opportunity. i am now in diyarbakir. we have only six buildings that were collapsed and we have close to 500 people who have lost their lives, but a lot of people of course left the city. many buildings are damaged. new compare with other places, o say it is not comparable because

the kind of destruction and devastation in places like certain districts, i mean, it is really, really big. we are having a complete disaster here. it is a nightmare situation. not only so many people died, probably around 40,000 but we know there are still tens of thousands of people who are still under the rubble and most of the rescue operations are suspended. millions of people are affected. complete districts, complete towns are destroyed so it will take a lot of time to recover, actually. in that sense, i totally agree with othman moqbel that it is not really possible for the turkish government to respond to this crisis. the first three days, state government situations were not

anywhere, it was just ordinary people who mobilized to have people in need of urgent help like food and shelter and those kinds of things. the situation is bad. it will take a lot of time. the government, virtually, we do have emergency rule so that was the first thing they did rather than rescuing people from the rubble. they are using emergency rule powers to somehow take control over even the humanitarian aid. it is a very bizarre situation. when i hear deeply what othman moqbel was saying about the need for international community to support turkiye and syria, when

you compare the amount of resources and money poured into ukraine where we have a war over the last year because of the russian invasion of ukraine, there is a war that people are dying -- probably not this many people that we have lost in the earthquake. but when you see the kinds of problem hundreds of billions of dollars they were pouring into that context, which is somehow -- mail addressing the conflict, but when it is the kinds of issues of resources available, money is always available. the numbers, the kind of funding we're having from the international -- it is very limited.

more needs to be done. this is not a natural disaster, it is a human-made disaster. yes, earthquakes do happen. this is an earthquake zone. since 1999 when we had the big earthquake close to his temple -- istanbul, since then experts have been warning our governments to prepare the country, particularly these towns and the people there for the earthquake. but nothing was done. we don't have safe buildings. we have a lot of corruption and crime. there is no good governmental inspection of the construction sites, which is the backbone of the turkish economy. so there is a whole corrupt economy behind this whole disaster. that is why we think of this disaster not as a natural

disaster -- i mean, people don't die naturally. this is a massacre. and from the local governments to many other institutions who are responsible jack shall he build safe houses for our people -- people have a right to a safe place to live. but we have seen buildings constructed like last year, two years ago, three years ago, despite the fact we have all the papers and regulations, but nobody is following the rules. and then an earthquake with the magnitude of 7.7 happens and we have tens of thousands of people dead. in japan, for example, an earthquake of 9.1, this kind of deadly. i think that is why -- i hope peoplen turkiye, our governments will take this as a very serious warning because

these earthquakes are going to happen. but we never prepare our towns and people. we have a lot of responsibility. nermeen: could you believe why you believe turkiye, despite the earthquake of 1999, did not take steps? some have suggested that in the last 20 years in which erdogan has been the leader first as prime minister and then-president, there was an increasing centralization of power around the presidency and this somehow has contributed to turkiye's lack of preparedness. could you respond to that whether you think that is true and if so, how? looks in turkiye, there is something -- it could be translated as zoning permit.

it means people who construct buildings not following the rules and all kinds of buildings which are not properly built. should not have the permission from the government or local authority. these are totally illegal settlements. ok. almost every election, there is amnesty for these people. so all of this ill constructed, unsafe buildings, they are -- the government pardoned them and they all become legal. this is a major problem. historically over the last 50, 60 years every single government to get votes they declare amnesty and they make legal unlawful, unsafe houses, apartments. that is one thing. the second thing is, of course,

housing in t buildings are totally left to the mercy of a totally unregulated housing and construction market, so even the inspection of the buildings is being done by private companies. that is the most ridiculous thing. this is about the safety of your citizens, so you cannot really leave it to private companies. there should be some kind of public elation -- regulation of these buildings. a construction company, they can hold a building inspection company and they can pay that company to inspect the buildings they themselves ar constructing. it is a ridiculous situation. the government needs to take responsibility and make sure the houses that are being built are built properly based on the rules and punish those who do not follow the rules.

this is a massacre and they are perpetrators. now the government is arresting some of the contractors, some indigenous people, but that is scapegoating, actually. they are also attacking some poor syrian refugees, using them of stealing stuff -- accusg them of stealing stuff from the rubble. we have the immigrants to attack and then a couple of constructors, indigenous people who built the buildings. yes, they have some responsibility but the majority of who is responsible is on the shoulders of the government, the local governments who are authorized, who are responsible to make sure the buildings are built properly. that is not happening. corruption, bribery. i was visiting this family and

they told me that in the earthquake zone in one of the districts, you can only build a five-story building. but the building was 10 stories. i asked them how it happened. they said, we just saw the mayor and we got permission. can you imagine that? it is incredible. everybody knows this, actually. society knows, government, everyone is a part of it. that is why i think this is a collective -- carries out massacre was to yeah, mass murder. contractors, the government should be held responsible. amy: we want to thank you for being with us, hisyar özsoy, deputy chair of the peoples' democratic party and member of turkish parliament who represents diyarbakir in southern turkiye, the largest kurdish-majority city in turkiye, where he has been helping with disaster relief

and just came from a funeral. next up, we look at the spiraling global economic crisis from pakistan to sri lanka to lebanon war protesters today attacked 6's, setting some of them on fire. back in 30 seconds. ♪♪ [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as debates continue in washington over raising the debt

ceiling and combating inflation, we take a global look at growing international economic crisis as soaring inflation and devalued currencies leave nations across the globe confronting a catastrophic debt crisis. lebanon is facing what the world bank has described as "among the most severe crises globally since the mid-19th century." earlier today, lebanese protesters attacked at least six banks, setting some on fire, as the lebanese pound hit a new record low. since 2019, the pound has lost 98% of its value. protesters accused the lebanese government and banks are failing to help the people. >> what are you lebanese people waiting for to go down and take your rights from this mafia come these criminals that is ruling? where are the human rights? there is no electricity, no water. nothing at all in this country. they don't feel the people. they see us as sheep. we won't stay silent about our life's work.

amy: in addition to lebanon, numerous other countries are facing similar crises. in iq, protestrecently broke out in baghdad or the plummeng value iraq's currency, the dinar. in egypt, the value of the egyptian pound has shrunk in half over the past year while prices have soared. in sri lanka, authorities have just raised the price of electricity by 66% in an effort to get a bailout from the international moneta fund as last your sri nka defauld on its debt for the first time in history. pakistan is also facing its worst economic crisis, leading to gas shortages, power outages, and raant price creases. in argentina, inflation has hit nearly 100%. to look more at this growing global economic crisis, we are joined by jomo kwame sundaram. he is a malaysian economist at the khazanah research institute in kuala lumpur. he was previously the u.n. assistant secretary-general for economic development.

professor, thank you so much for being with us. can you comment on what is confronting in the united states we focus on inflation here but the global tester v of inflaon and what it means? >> thank you for having me, amy. the world situation is very serious. not because we have a conspiracy to worsen the situation, but we have a confluence of events. two in particular. firstly, we know the use raised interest rates over the last year and this ha had cut a straight -- catastrophic results. leaving most developing countries in the global south and this has resulted in the currencies depreciating and the

u.s. dollar appreciating. that often raises the cost of imports which are often necessary for the subsistence most of the other major development which has been cash the other later development has been cost of debt has gone up tremendously. and it basically puts many economies into very serious difficulties because they're no longer able to service the debt s, especially given the currencies are declining in value. of course, some prices have gone up of many commodity prices have not. this was the situation in very deep risk. we have as a consequence a very deep recession and many of these economies. at the same time, we have the stepping up of warfare.

warfare not only by military means, which are very important and divert precious resources away from needed for those dealing with climate change and so on and so forth and instead, military purposes. germany has tripled its military spending within the last year. as a consequence of this, what we see now is that economic sanctions have basically become the norm. when economic sanctions were taken against countries like north korea or cuba and so on, these were relatively small economies which have very few ramifications for the rest of the world. but now we have a situation where these economic sanctions have resulted in the increase in prices of fuel, food, and

fertilizer. all of this will have very serious implications on the availability of affordable food, particularly for poorer people in the world all over the place. and this combination of war, especially by increasing economic means, is going to exacerbate the situation. i shod also a another w has started on a completely different front, and that is the war ainst chi. it began arguably almost a decade ago with the pivot to asia fm washington, but this has increasing meant many o the so-cald supply cins, the glal -- the value chains and so on and so forth have been seriously disrupted. in this was -- adversely affects all other countries as well

because what supposedly produced in china -- it is not produced in china alone. it is produced by many other countries which are part of the value chains. so we have a situation where strategic and military considerations are resulting in more and more economic warfare. i believe the polite term in washington is economic spacecraft. and this threatens the world and very profound ways. if you look but -- sorry. nermeen: i was going to ask if you could elaborate on china in particular, which is now the largest government creditor to a mber o countries in the global south, but also the principal trading partner and many.

-- of many. if you could talk about the significance and centrality of cha in this crisis? >> much of the production from -- in china and from china going to the rest of the world is actually dependent on imports from other parts of the world, especially from the global south. so for example, we in southeast asia produced -- china's the number one trading partner and for some countries, the number one investor as well. the same is increasingly true in many sub-saharan african countries. much of the growth in sub-saharan africa and the first decade of this century was largely due to the increase of demand from china and india and other so-called new markets. even in latin america, we find their principal trading partner for many countries and sometimes even a principal investor happens to be china.

the implications of sanctions against china are not directly affecting china as much as they are also affecting other countries in the global south. so the fact many of these countries are borrowing from chinas, of course, a matter of rious concern for these countries. most countri in the global south to not want to take part on either side of the cold war which is emerging. they would prefer to be nonaligned, so there is a new role from the first cold war. but this nonaliment is different because were basically talking about. similar economies which are dominated by capitalist surprises. -- enterprises. this relationship with china is so central for many countries in the global south that any below

attendant against china often adversely affects many other countries, sometimes more than it affects china. nermeen: could you expand what the impact is having more creditors than in the past? not just china, the imf, etc., but others involved as well, what are the effects on that in attempts to restructure this debt? >> when the u.s. fed raised interest rates in the early 1980's, is basically shocked the world economy and the world economy threatened to come a grinding halt. president reagan at the time forced reversal of the fed's policies and u.s. economy picked up, but we all know now latin america lost at least a decade -- some would argue more than a decade -- and much of sub-saharan africa lost arguably

two decades -- some even suggest a quarter of a century -as a consequence of the raising of interest rates. and also the kind of policies which were imposed from the washington based institutions. the consequence of that was to bring many of these economies to a grinding halt. much of this was justified as supposedly necessary to get economies out your fresh start. at that fresh start never really came. as we now know, in benefit of hindsight, and economies began to pick up precisely for other reasons, including from places like china and india which are referred to earlier. amy: finally, the human effects of this around the world? we started this conversation by talking about lebanese protesters burning the banks come the massive inflation in egypt, and what is happening in pakistan. >> what is happening in lebanon

was preceded by what happened months ago in sri lanka and similar episodes which happened elsewhere. but the ability to protest -- a certain degree of means to do so. in many situations, people are suffering often in silence, trying to make in the meat. usually, invariably, when governments are forced to cut spending, they cut health spending, they cut social spending, they cut educational spending, they cut other kinds of social provisioning for example children and so on and so forth. and very importantly, they cut spending, for example, trying to adapt to global warming, global heating if you will. and most countries in the global south, tropical or subtropical zone where the impact of global

heating is worse. we have a situation we have -- i'm not suggesting deliberate conspiracy between the u.s. and the defense department and nato and european union and so on and so forth, but the effects is tantamount to the effects of a conspiracy. so many countries in the global south are looking elsewhere, looking at alternatives. they are trying to survive in this situation. they see a looming crisis ahead of them and they don't know how to avoid it. it is like being on the titanic. you see the iceberg but you don't know what to do about it. amy: professor jomo kwame sundaram, we want to do part two of this conversation. leading malaysian economist speaking trust us from kuala lumpur. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. hundreds of residents and east palestine, ohio, packed into the first town hall meeting wednesday night after a bomb train carrying hazardous materials derailed last week in a so-called control burn sent a

stream cloud of toxic chemicals blended with fire and smoke into the air. the epa said chemicals were released "to air surface oils and surface waters. 2 backed out of the meeting. michael regan is visiting today as residents want the incident to be declared a federal emergency. emily is with us again with river valley organizing for an update from a few miles from the explosion in east palestine. we spoke to you earlier this week. can you talk about what happened last night? norfolk southern did not come to address the people. what is happening right now? people are terrified as they see thousands of fish, frogs dead and yet authorities are saying the water, the air isafe. >> thank you so much. i want to thank your program for the coverage you have done. we really apprecte it.

things have been rapidly evolving ovethe last 48 hours. as you know, norfolk southern put out a statement they were not coming to the meeting. they cited their employees safety. they said to our local news station a statement that said they were concerned that the residents would basically cause physical harm to their employees, so they were not going to come. i have not seen or heard one threat physically of violence or anything against norfolk southern. the only thing i've heard is people want to know what is going on. people were angry as the forum kept changing. first it was a town hall where elected officials were going to be there. even from state and federal representation, the questions were going to be answered over couple houreriod. that changed to being like an open house with tables where

people could come and ask questions if they wanted. honestly, without norfolk southern being there, a lot of questions were not answered. we found out over the last 48 hours that there were several cities south of the site that are experiencing chemicals in their water, and one of those in particular was's in steubenville, ohio's water. they are an hour south, like over 60 miles south of east palestine. toronto, ohio, the same, south of them. in west virginia in the paint handle, they have had pictures of the river turning turquoise from the chemicals. the fallout is really beginning to happen. the instructions were vague from each city. they basically said they think the levels are low and i think the water is safe.

they think. people closer, like where i am and in east palestine, we are told to drink bottled water. i work with a lot of people that have dealt with this in the first, tell me to do was to buy bottled water. when this happened even before the control release. residents are understandably angry, upset. norfolk southern just came out this morning on our local news program -- i apologize. an employee was interviewed and we found out the train that derailed in east palestine was broke down in madison, illinois, on february 1. they believe the train w broke down because the contents were too heavy that it was carrying. norfolk southern i currently was warned by employees that train was too heavy and something that this could happen -- apparently was warned by employees that the

train was too heavy and something like this could happen. the epa director is coming out today because he wants to see everything is going to status quo. it like we said, time and again, for almost two weeks, we were told only about the air, that it was say. amy: we have 20 seconds. your final comment? >> people were let back in their homes. we really need a federal emergency to be declared. we need our governor dewine, we ablutely need him when he talks to president biden administration today or tomorrow that we need fema here. their short-term and long-term effects that will be some of the greatest this nation has ever seen in a train to realm it. amy: emily wright, we will continue to follow this, development director for river valley organizing sticking to us

from where the train to realm it took place. the train was two miles long with toxic chemicals. that does it for our show. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy o