02/28/23 02/28/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> this weekend "the new york times" published an expose shining a light on scores of migrant children currently working on our farms, factories, and some of the most dangerous sites of our country. amy: "alone and exploited coastal reveals migrant children as young as 12 years old working

for major brands like ben & jerry's, fruit of the loom, ford, general motors, walmart, whole foods, and target. in a, the biden administration has vowed to crackdown on migrant child labor. we will speak with hannah dreier who traveled to alabama, florida, michigan, south dakota, and virginia for the story and spoke to more than 100 migrant child workers in 20 states. then we look at how brazil's new president luiz inacio lula da silva could play a major role in peace talks to end the war in ukraine. >> my suggestion is we form a group of countries that will sit at the table with ukraine and russia to try to stop the war. brazil will make an effort. amy: we will speak with celso amorim, lula's foreign affairs adviser. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. u.s. treasury secretary janet yellen made a surprise visit to the ukrainian capital of kyiv on monday and announced the transfer of $1.25 billion in new economic aid to ukraine. >> as we mark one year since the beginning of this full-scale invasion, the message i bring you from president biden is simple -- america will stand with ukraine for as long as it takes. amy: during her trip, yellen also warned china would face severe consequences if it provided material support to russia in violation of u.s.-backed sanctions. on monday, china criticized the united states for its role in ukraine war. a spokesperson for china's foreign ministry said -- "while the united states has intensified its efforts to send weapons to one of the

conflicting parties, resulting in endless wars and no end in sight for peace, it has frequently spread false information about china's supply of weapons to russia." last week, china released a 12-point peace plan to end the war in ukraine. and related news, the president of belarus alexander lukashenko haarrived in china for a three-day state visit while u.s. secretary of state tony blinken visiting kazakhstan for meetings with top diplomats from central asian nations. in turkey, at least one person died monday when another earthquake shook turkey southeast region. 29 buildings collapsed in the tremor which came three weeks after a devastating pair of quakes killed over 50,000 in turkey and syria. over the weekend, the head of the world food program michael beasley described the situation in southern turkey as

"apocalyptic." he said, "the scale of devastation here is truly incomprehensible." the israeli human rights group b'tselem has accused the government of benjamin netanyahu of backing a pogrom in west bank town of huwara, which jewish settlers attacked on sunday night. the settlers burned cars and homes and killed sameh aqtash, a palestinian man who had recently returned from turkey where he volunteered to help after the earthquake. b'tselem said -- "the jewish supremacist regime carried out a pogrom in the villages around nablus yesterday. this isn't 'loss of control.' this is exactly what israeli control looks like. the settlers carry out the attack, the military secures it, the politicians back it. it's a synergy." the israeli publication +972 magazine reports the israeli military allowed the rampaging

settlers to walk into huwara on foot, while preventing journalists, medics, and palestinian aid workers from doing the same. according to "the washington post," israel has not yet arrested any settlers who took part in the violence. this is nabil abu rdyneh, a spokesperson for the palestinian president mahmoud abbas. >> undoubtedly, this is a war against the palestinian people, an inclusive war backed by the israeli government. the settlers -- despite some try to deny. these crimes will not pass without penalty and israelis shall be held responsible for all that hapns and so does the military. the american administration who backs this government should stop all this violence and all these crimes. the palestinian people shall not be defeated or back out and we will chase after them and all

the international platforms. amy: the settler attack in huwara came hours after a palestinian gunman shot dead two israeli brothers from a nearby settlement. that shooting came four days after israeli forces killed 11 palestinians and injured 500 in a rare daytime raid of nablus. in the latest violence in the west bank, an israeli-american named elan ganeles was shot dead monday while driving near jericho. the biden administration has vowed to crackdown on the exploitation of migrant children working inside the united states. this comes just days after "the new york times" published a shocking exposé revealing how migrant children are working in gruesome conditions for many major brands including fruit of the loom, ford, general motors, j. crew, walmart, whole foods, target and ben & jerry's. we will speak to "the new york times" reporter who broke the story after headlines. the biden administration has

anunced mafacturerseeking federasubsidieto make comper chipsill needo ovidaffordle childre for their works. white house secretary karine jean-pierre outlined part of the plan monday. >> the need for childcare to boost our workforce is undeniable. part of the solution to that is the commerce department is going to require companies seeking substantialhips funding to submit a robust childcare plan that reflects the needs of their workers, communities where they plan to build. amy: advocates for student debt relief are rallying outside the supreme court today as justices hear arguments in a case that could determine whether the biden administration can proceed with a plan to eliminate up to $20,000 in federal student loan debt for many borrowers. president biden announced the plan in august but it has been held up over legal challenges. in other supreme court news, justices agreed monday to hear a case that could decide the fate of the consumer financial

protection bureau, which was created by president obama after the financial crisis. rupert murdoch, the owner of fox news, has admitted under oath that many hosts on his network "endorsed" donald trump's false claims about the 2020 election. murdoch also admitted it was "wrong" for fox to keep interviewing the pro-trump conspiracy theorist and mypillow ceo mike lindell, but murdoch suggested it was done for the network to make more money. murdoch said, "it is not red or blue, it is green." murdoch's made the remarks in a deposition as part of a $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit against fox filed by dominion voting systems. in a new court filing, dominion also revealed murdoch had given trump's son-in-law jared kushner confidential information about biden's campaign ads, along with debate strategy during the campaign. a warning, this ne headline includes video that may be disturbing. protesters gathered in

knoxville, tennessee, on monday to demand justice for lisa edwards, a 60-year-old woman who died after suffering a stroke in the back of a knoxville police patrol car. edwards was arrested on february 5 on trespassing charges after she refused to leave a local hospital following her discharge. at the time of her arrest, she was still wearing her hospital gown. police bodycam video shows she repeatedly told officers she needed medical care saying, "i'm going to have a stroke" and "i can't breae."

amy: aanother int, lis wards cabe heardelling t knoxlle poli officer "you gu are goi to let die." onofficer can be hea smissinger warni saying, "'s all anct." stead bringg her ba insidehe hospil, offers pled her ithe backf a patrolar wherehe becam unresponve. eventuly, e was brght back the same hospit, fort sands region medicalenter, ere was aced on fe suppo and ed the flowing d. in ainteiew onvlt in knville, h son deced how the police treatment of his mother. >> i can't even wrap my head around it. how you could treat someone like that. they treated her like she was trash. amy: mexican soldiers shot dead five unarmed men on sunday in the border town of nuevo laredo across the border from laredo, texas, sparking angry protests.

the men were reportedly returning home from a nightclub. the nuevo laredo human rights committee said soldiers fired at least 20 shots at then men who were in a pickup truck. a sixth person in the truck was injured. soldiers later fired shots to disperse local residents who began protesting at the scene of the shooting. in ecuador, eduardo mendúa, an a'i cofan indigenous leader who fought against oil extraction in the amazon rainforest, was assassinated sunday. he was a member of the confederation of indenous nationalities of ecuador. the group said he was shot 12 times by two armed men wearing hoods while he was at his home garden in the town of dureno. mendúa's murder is believed to be linked to the community's fight to block ecuador's state owned oil company petroecuador from expanding its drilling in the region of sucumbíos. indigenous communities in the ecuadoran amazon have for decades dealt with the horrific healthnd environmental impacts of oil production.

over a decade ago, they won a lawsuit against chevron over the spilling of billions of gallons of crude oil which contaminated the water and soil and caused cancer rates among locals to skyrocket. about 15 climate activists chained themselves to the french finance ministry in paris on monday in a protest calling for debt cancellation for countries in the global south and for wealthy polluting nations to pay a climate debt. the activists, who wore red jumpsuits and masks, splattered fake blood on the walls of the french ministry. >> we are chained up just like the countries which are most affected by global warming and are tied down by the debt they have to reimburse, which keeps the from putting money whe they need it to protect themselves. amy: meanwhile, in norway, dozens of indigenous and climate activists chained themselves to the doors of norway's energy ministry on monday to protest the placement of wind turbines on land traditionally used by the indigenous sami reindeer herders. the protests continued today

when activists blocked access to norway's finance ministry. this is activist ella marie haetta isaken. >> we're here to protest against human rights violations. where windurbines are on the land illegally according to high court decision. but they are there in ways we demand they should be taken down and that indigenous peoples rights should be respected. amy: in britain, prime minister rishi sunak has reached a deal with the european union on post-brexit trade rules for northern ireland. sunak said the deal will remove "a sense of border in the irish sea." speaking in belfast, sinn fein vice president michelle o'neill welcomed the deal. >> what i've said have been left in limbo, left with uncertainty. i'm hoping today because we are at the end negotiations, that all focus at he --

amy: the u.s. marshals service has launched a new initiative to investigate missing and murdered indigenous persons. according to the bureau of indian affairs, there are more than 4200 unsolved cases of missing native americans. under a new pilot program, the u.s. marshals service will team up with the yurok tribe in northern california to help address the crisis. and this week marks 50 years since the start of the american indian movement's 71-day occupation of the village of wounded knee on the pine ridge indian reservation. the occupation helped draw international attention to the plight of indigenous people within the borders of the united states. the u.s. government responded to the occupation with a full military siege that included armored personnel carriers, f-4 phantom jets, u.s. marshals, fbi, state and local law enforcement. during the occupation, two sioux men were shot dead by federal agents and a black civil rights activist witnessing. the fbi confirmed in 2014 he had

been killed during the standoff. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. when we come back, "alone and exploited." we speak with pulitzer prize prize-winning reporter who investigated the migrant children as young as 12 years old working for major brands like ben & jerry's, fruit of the loom, ford, j.crew, walmart, whole foods, and target. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "the whole bank." we just premiered i knew music video for the song shared with us by the de colctive. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by democracy now!'s juan gonzález in chicago. it is election day there. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show looking at a shocking investigation by "the new york times" exposing the forced labor of migrant children as young as at factories across the united 12 states. over 100 unaccompanied migrant children, mostly from central and erika, described grueling and often dangerous working conditions, including having to use heavy machinery, being subjected to long hours and late-night shifts at facilities that manufacture products for major brands and retailers such as hearthside food solutions -- the makers of cheerios, fruit of the loom, whole foods, target, walmart, j.crew, frito-lay, and ben & jerry's. others were forced to work as cleaning staff at hotels, at slaughterhouses, construction sites, and car factories owned

by general motors and ford in serious violation of child labor laws. at least a dozen migrant child workers have been killed on the job since 2017 according to "the new york times." the disturbing revelations prompted the biden administration to announce on monday a wide initiative to crackdown on the labor exploitation of migrant children. white house press secretary karine jean-pierre spoke yesterday calling "the new york times" investigation "heartbreaking." >> we announce new actions to crackdown on child labor violations and ensure sponsors have unaccompanied migrant children are vigorously, rigorously vetted. child abuse -- child labor is an abuse and it is unacceptable. it is unacceptable. this administration has long been combating a surge in child exportation and today the

department of labor and hhs announce they will create a new interagency task force to combat child exploitation and also increase scrutiny of companies that do business with employers who violate child labor laws. mandates, follow-up calls for unaccompanied migrant children report safety concerns to hhs hotline and audit the sponsor that in process for unaccompanied migrant children over the next four weeks. amy: the labor department has already launched an investigation into hearthside food solutions, which produces and packages food for other major companies, such as general mills, frito-lay, and quaker oats. democracy now! reached out to hearthside food solutions to invite a company spokesperson to join us on the program. they declined the request but sent us a statement to read on air. the statement reads in part -- "we take the allegations in the article seriously and have committed to these immediate next steps -- we have engaged a renowned, global advisory firm, and an

independent law firm, to conduct an independent review of hearthside's employment practices, third-party employee engagements, plant safety protocols, and our standards of business conduct. following the review, we are committed to enhancing our policies and practices in line with our advisors' recommendations." for more, we're joined by two guests. hannah dreier is a pulitzer prize-winning reporter at "the new york times," whose major investigation published sunday on the front page is headlined "alone and exploited, migrant children work brutal jobs across the u.s." her follow-up piece published monday is headlined "biden administration plans crackdown on migrant child labor." she's joining us from new york. you traveled to alabama, florida, georgia, michigan, minnesota, south dakota, virginia for this story, speaking to more than 100 migrant child workers in 20 states. can you lay out the scope of this investigation, what you found, and were you shocked by the speed of the biden administration's response and

your evaluation of what that is? >> thank you for having me. when i started this reporting, i thought we might find some his were working agricultural jobs, baby dishwasher jobs. i never anticipated we would find the scope of children working these really industrial, adult, dangerous jobs in all 50 states. what i discovered is i think a child labor scandal in this country. we have more more kids coming over without their parents, and they are being released in a situation where they have to pay their own rent, provide their own living expenses. there under huge pressure to send money back home. they end up in some of the most brutal jobs in this country. i talked to kids outside slaughterhouses when they were getting off their shifts at 7:00 in the morning. i talked to kids working as roofers at the top of buildings. kids who had gotten seriously injured.

we found many examples of kids who had died on these jobs. it is in the supply chain of so many corporations. at the end of the reporting, i felt it was inescapable. so many things that i consume of cheerios, have this labor in the supply chain. the response was overwhelming. we were told the biden administration worked over the weekend and biden approved these changes on sunday afternoon from a day after the story ran. it is gratifying. the people i'm talking to believe they're still a lot to be done but some of these changes really do seem like they will start to address this problem. juan: i knew your investigation, how recent -- in your investigation, how recent was this develop it? there was enormous pressure following the end of the truck administration to remove

unaccompanied minors from detention facilities, but this is a recent phenomena or has this been building for years now? >> i think this has been building for maybe the past 10 years and part of it has to do with the changing nature of the children who are crossing the border. 10 years ago, there were far fewer children, maybe 6000 children a year and now we see 150,000 a year, and those children are often coming to reunite with her parents. they would cross the border and be released to a parent who often would take care of them. often that parent would have paid to have them brought. now we are seeing it is much more common for parents to sending -- to be sending the children and they send back remittances. who is coming has changed. we have seen a labor shortage. i've seen a couple of dynamics to create the perfect storm for this phenomenon to explode.

people are telling us they have seen this huge shift in the last three years. middle schools where every eighth-grader has started working. federal investigators who used to focus on sex crimes and are now instead focusing on pulling 12 and 13-year-olds out of factory jobs. in the last two or three years, rapid change. juan: your story indicates hhs secretary becerra did put enormous pressure on other government agencies as well as his own agency to move the unaccompanied minors out of the detention facilities. how do you assess the role of sec. becerra? >> a lot of advocates, lot of people in the immigration world were excited about him and the change they thought they happen at hhs after the biden administration took over.

but what happened was there was a huge crunch at the border where all of this sudden children were sort of getting piled up in jails run by customs and border protection because there is not enough capacity at health and human services. there was this media attention to kids sleeping on the floor, sleeping under those silver space blankets. what people insight hhs say is becerra started putting pressure on them to discharge these kids more quickly. the call would be, how many kids have been discharged from care today? how many are still there? the people working at all levels of the agency say, that created a situation where kids were being pushed out too quickly to people who were not vetted. a lot of people inside the agency told he would say, why can't we read this likeness ugly line? we need to be more efficient.

henry ford would never have gotten rich if he ran us ugly line like this. that is intense then to say we're talking about the most vulnerable children in this country. somebody eventually leaked a video of him braiding staff and saying that on tape. he himself is probably under a lot of pressure but there's a lot of disappointment within the agency and among immigration advocates about how this has been handled. amy: i would like to ask about the children. if you could tell us some of the stories. it is the heart of your story, talk about christian who works in a construction job instead of going to school, 14 years old. carolina who packages cheerios at night in a factory. talk about each of them and how you found them. how difficult was it free to find them? >> these kids were not hard to find.

inspectors have not been looking for them in a proactive way. i went to different cities and towns and usually the next day i already was speaking to children who are working these illegal exploitive jobs. i spoke to christian in southern florida. he was living in a house full of other unaccompanied minors, other kids who came across the border without their parents. all of them were working full-time. none of them went to school. christian came when he was 12 years ago and immediately, the next day, started working full-time in construction. he told he does not know how to read and would like to learn list and learn how to read, but he can't go to school because he has a debt to pay off, he has to pay rent. i went to a construction site and spoke to him as he was putting a roof on a building and told me he had already fallen twice that year. he was working with power tools. he was balancing precariously on the edge.

i mean, he is a child. it is not what he wants to be doing but he was released to the situation and there is no support for him to get out of it. in michigan, i talked to a lot of children who are working in a factory packaging cheerios, lucky charms, chinos. these are kids who were in school. some of the kids i medical toll become oak, we have to leave early now because we have to go to our factory job. i was shocked. i would to the factor in there they were, walking out on their shift. this is a place where you are working with really industrial machinery. the machines have sliced off fingers. one woman who was doing this kind of work was pulled in by a hairnet and her scalp was ripped open. it is a serious, adult kind of place to work. these kids are balancing it with

seven days of school as well. they are exhausted. amy: tell us about the child from guatemala, how they met the sponsor -- these children are here legally. then talk about the children who have died. >> i think that is such an important point. these are not undocumented children. they did not sneak in and nobody ever found out about them and now they are living a subterranean life. these are children who turned themselves on at the border, usually asked for asylum, and were released to live with somebody the government thought would protect them. the government cannot release them unless they are sure it is a trustworthy adult who is taking these kids on. in some cases, there being released to complete strangers. neri met a man on facebook who said if you want to come to the u.s. come he would help him, let him go to school. he shows up, the man picks them up from school and immediately and send a list of debts this

kid now has was of charging thousands of dollars for his journey to this country. he charged him for filling out the paperwork that he had to send the government in order to get him released. he charged him $45 for the dinner of tacos they had that night. then he told the child that he had to fight his own place to live, find a job, and start paying back this debt. he does not speak english. we have seen the text messages between him and this man. the man starts threatening him saying, i'm going to mess you up. he threatened the boys family. these kids are just on their own and the situation with very little resources. very few ways out. juan: you mentioned federal inspectors generally are not looking fothese kinds of violations, but i am sure

several of these workplaces that you went to were unionized. is there any sense on your part that the organized labor movement, that leaders in some of these places were aware of this? they certainly could complain and therefore trigger some kind of inspection. >> many of these children are coming in through staffing agencies. i initially thought the unions would be a really important resource in this reporting. when i went to them, daytona, no, there are no children here. -- they told me, no, there are no children here. i would go back and see children on the night shift stop there are two labor streams. the official employees and those are people who have to provide government ids, regulation and protection. and then kids who come to the staffing agencies. that is like a total free-for-all. people who work at the staffing

agencies told us they know they're sending children to work at these factories, people who sit children to work packaging cheerios say they knowingly did this and that factory knowingly accepted these kids. but because there is this one layer removed, the factories don't get in trouble. it is the staffing agencies that get in trouble when they would crackdown. amy: and the children who have died? >> child of her laws exist for a reason. they are not just there because kids should go to school and they should get enough sleep. they are there because the work is dangerous. they're much more likely to get injured on the job. they're supposed to protect kids ' physical safety. what we found talking to these kids working jobs that are illegal for children, the rate of injury is extremely high. in some cases, children died days after being released to a sponsor. in one case in alabama, a

15-year-old fell 50 feet off the warehouse where he was helping place a roof. it was his first day on the job. he had been released to his brother. here in brooklyn where i live, a 14-year-old was killed on his bike stop he was a food delivery worker. he was living in a house full of strangers and trying to send money back to his family to buy a car. another case that struck me was a 16-year-old who died when he fell out of an earth mover he was driving. to me the idea a 16-year-old would be in the position to be driving at 3510 vehicle is inconceivable -- 35 ton vehicle is inconceivable. amy: i want to bring greg chen into this conversation. hannah dreier is a pulitzer prize-winning reporter who did

this article "alone and exploited." gregory chen is the senior director of government relations for the american immigration lawyers association. can you talk about legally what recourse these children have? >> thank you for having me on the show this is an extremely challenging situation. use thword "legally" the recourse these children have. the fit thing that comeso mind to me as a practicing lawyer represented children in the 1990's is that children don't have any knowledge or understanding of what their legal rights are. many of the children who are coming from different countries that have very limited english capacity orchoolson't understand there is legal system of labor laws to protect them and they're also afraid their immigration status here in the u.s. will be in jeopardy. -- in jeopardy if they report any such violations. juan: i want to ask in terms of

response of the biden administration was certainly one of the fastest responses by a government agency to an exposé that i can recall, your sense of what some of the proposals are of the biden ainistration to address this issue? >> so the announcement by the biden administration are laudable in terms of the speed implemented or announced them. increasing the department of labor and public services investigation -- improving the screening and vetting of those who may sponsor these children, usually relatives that are going to take care of the children after they are released from government custody, which happens when they first arrived. after the children are released, what kinds of post release services are going to be give

to these children to me sure to check on them so that after a month, three months, are they stilliving there, what is their health situaon, they going to school -- those are all steps thfederal government has announced they will be doing more of because we had not been able to check. what is missing here, and this is important given the fact as hannah described, what we're seeing is the numberf chilen coming to the u.s. particular from central american countries has increased dramatically from about 10 years ago. we had 13,000, 14,000 children, and now looking at 130,000 children that came just last year. these children fling violence and poverty. -- fleeing violence and poverty. many are afraid to come to the u.s. because of the challenges crossing the border and because the u.s. has made it much more difficult toeek asylum. and when they get here from if they don't have stable humanitarian legal release such as a silent, they will be afraid

to report anything bad that happens to them while here in the u.s., including labor violations. what the department of homeland security needs to do and the biden administration needs to do is look at more ways of ensuring a silent access and he met interim protections for other people -- humanitarian protections for other people coming here. juan: i wanted -- in terms of the penalties that employe of these staffing agencies face. just last week the department of labor found a company called packer sanitation services guilty of having 102 children as young as 13 years old working across eight states and only got $1.5 million fine for that. >> the important thing here is we need more investigions to ensure fines and any penalties can be imposed and that congress

should be looking at this from a labor rspective. but i would also ue congress to look at reforming our u.s. asylum loss and u.s. immigration system overall. the fact the asylum system is closing, becoming more restrictive from congressional pressure and the biden administration is putng more blocks of peopleo come he and ey have not had congress reform our humanitarian or family or employment based visa system in three decades. that is 30 years were people who are comi here n't have the pathway needed to have a safe, stableife in the united states. we have millions of peoplwho are living here, including children, were in that tenuous status. anyone who has tenuous status will be here -- fearful of reporting labor violations. that vulnerabl class is not healthy for the country.

immigrants to contribute so much to our society. america we want to thank you for being with us gregory chen is , the senior director of government relations for the american immigration lawyers association. and hannah dreier for your superb "new york times" expose a "alone and exploited, migrant children work brutal jobs across the u.s." just to underscore when hhs checks on all minors by calling them a month after they begin living with our sponsors, eight obtained by the times shows the agency could not reach more than 85,000 children. overall the agency lost immediate contact with one third of migrant children. next up, we look at how brazil's new president luiz inacio lula da silva could play a key role in peace talks to end the war in ukraine. we will speak with his foreign advisory minister celso amorim.

stay with us. ♪♪ [music break] amy: "fantasma da opera" by a barca do sol. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we turn now to look at how brazil's new president luiz inácio lula da silva could play a key effort in peace talks to

end the war in ukraine. china has also sought to mediate negotiations in recent weeks and months, and lula is set to meet with the chinese president xi jinping at the end of march. when lula met with german chancellor olaf scholz at the end of january, he said brazil will work with other nations to help achieve peace in ukraine as his country has not taken sides. >> my suggestion is we form a group of countries that will sit at the table ukraine and russia to try to find peace try to stop the war. brazil will make an effort. i spoke with marcon and olaf scholz and other presidents, president biden, but the idea of creating a group of people institutional, multilateral, g20, t10, meet -- g 50 to sit out and find peace because the world needs peace. amy: just two weeks ago, lula was in the united states to meet with president biden, who has

pushed brazil to send weapons to ukraine. lula says he told biden, "i don't want to join the war, i want to end the war." lula spoke on cnn. >> what i believe is in the case of ukraine and russia, it is necessary to have someone talking abo. it is necessary wshould build discharge with -- we need to find an to rocketry's that can siwith president putin and show him the mistake he made to invade ukrainian territory. we he to talk re so we can -- we have to stop the war. amy: lula told biden he would not sell weapons or ammunition to ukraine. after lula's remarks, white house national security spokesman john kirby was asked to respond in a follow-up interview on cnn. >> we don't see any put us right

now to get to the negotiating table, so that is why we are focused on making sure ukraine has everything they need to be successful on the battlefield so if and when president zelenskyy says "i'm ready to sit down," he can do so with some wind at his back. the issue at stake with ukraine is about sovereignty, independence. how hypocritical what it be for the united states and it is sort of a frame to be browbeating or trying to tussle other countries to give more, do more, say more? amy: this comes as russia's deputy foreign minister told the russian news service tass last week that moscow took note of lula's comments "on the subject of possible mediation in order to find political ways to prevent escalation in ukraine, correcting miscalculations in the field of international security on the basis of multilateralism, and considering the interests of all players." for more, we go to the capital of brazil, brasília, to speak with celso amorim, the foreign affairs adviser for brazil's

president luiz inacio lula da silva. he previously served as the brazilian foreign minister. amorim also served as defense minister under former president dilma rousseff. we welcome you back to democracy now! can you start off by talking about the significance of what lula told biden about not selling weapons to ukraine and the possibility of lula serving as some kind of mediator? >> welcome good morning -- well, good morning. i think the real point is we don't want to be part of the war . if you provide ammunition -- we were asked to do that by germany

rather than the ited states. but if we provide ammunition, we will be participating in the war , something that we don't want, something th is contrary to our general belief. peaceful means of resolving conflict. that is not mean we don't condemn the actions of the invasion of ukraine. it violates their sovereign integrity, eir nation charter. but we think must talk about -- if you only talk about how to defeat russia or we canussia, that will not come to a positive conclusion. i think the war will continue. yowill have a resentful russia, whoever is the leader. i think that does not bode well for peace in europe. juan: i wanted to ask you not

only brazil, but most of the countries in latin america have maintained a neutrality and refused to provide weapons to ukraine. there's been some criticism of some of the countries but not all. why do you think latin america has charted such a different course on this war? >> well, trying to coordinate pena's attitude toward war, we are peace. not only latin america, but south. this is not a war in which we are involved. which does not mean we don't condemn the actions by russia. i want to stress that once again stop i think more important to condemning or not condemning or trying to weaken russia or defeat russia is to find a way towards peace.

that is what we have to do. we are glad now some other people are talking like the chinese, some other great intellectuals in europe have done that before. but we want to find a way. maybe it is not immediately the peace we want, but some sort of cease-fire or amnesty that can then allow us to get to a peaceful solution to the conflicts which are there. juan: there have been other efforts in recent months to find -- to mediate a solution, for instance, former prime minister bennett of israel said he was involved and he thought there was a potential deal last year but that it was united states that he believed did not want the war to end at that time.

why do you think there might be greater success now in the efforts of lula? >> i cannot be sure there will be greer success, but we have to try. we can't give up on peace. it is a very dangerous situation. even if pele declare they're not going to use -- we can't be absolutely sure this will not happen. i part from that, thousands and thousands of people are dying. there is a crisis in the world and terms of food crisis. there is the crisis o energy affecting especially us, the developing world. many countries have -- if you don't have enough to eat, you will find it somewhere else.

for us, it is absolutely necessary to get peace. thats why president lula is speaking. there is nmagic formula. you have to talk instead of just thinking of more weapons, more like terry force. you wi not find a solution. kofi annan washe secretary-general, he had to talk to everye. the only thi you have in front of you is conflict or war and death, and we don't want that. amy: i would -- good about a new movement now over the last year but very recently to go after putin not only for crimes against humanity and war crimes, but specifically for engaging in war as an act of aggression.

this is very interesting movement. interestingly, the united states is not a signatory to the international criminal court as russia isn't either, britain isn't either. while it looks like they're pushing for this in the case of russia attacking ukraine, they're not pushing for this as a general category, finding leaders guilty of wars is an act of aggression. in 2003 the u.s. invaded iraq under president bush. you are fiercely opposed. lula was opposed to that invasion. what about this category investigating putin for this but also what it means for, for example, u.s. leaders? >> well, you know, i think if you look for indictment of the leaders who have started wars

they shouldn't, maybe you would not be able to talk to anyone. i think the most important thing that -- don't want to go into the specific metrics of the possible indictments. i think e question is not ing able to talk to them and find a way in which a solution, ich will not be an ideal one for anyone -- of course i agree with those that say russia cannot be rewarded for initiating the war. on the other hand, there are other people -- the most important thing is where the efforts are directed. if your efforts are direct to war, combat, to destroy or at least to weak your enemy, if all efforts are directed to fight- conditions for peace which may imply some sort of

cease-fire so -- this was done in the past. unfortunately, the minsk agreement's which were some -- [indiscernible] there are accusations on one side or the other. whatever it is, if we're just in search of war or defeating or enemy or indicting or fighting criminal -- criminal -- criminal person, leader, you will find it. we condemn the war in iraq never thought we should former president bush to be taken to the international crimina court. you are now dealing with the need toind a peaceful solutio

for the war. ral judgments are very important. i'm not claing they should be out. at the most important thing now is to find a peace that is just, that doenoteward wrong actions but still can help the countries -- it is geography. they will be there. we have to find a way for them to live as well as possible. amy: brazil joined the vast majority of the countries in the world on the first anniversary of russia's invasion in condemning russia for the invasion. countries like china, south africa, and others abstain from that vote. what would that possible agreement, as you're talking about, what uld a pee agreement -- what could you see it looking like? >> i thi at this point come as

you remember, vote in favor but alsoade a vote in which we insied on the point of nothing shou be used to prevent negotiations from stopping and going on. i think rather than putting opinions publicly at this stage, would like to talk to those involved to see where the resistances are. what the real bottom line for each side. otherwise, go into a rhetorical debate and positions get harder and harder and negotiation gets more difficult. that was my experience as a negotiator, my experience when also tried -- i think the most important thing

is to have an idea how we can at least stop the fighting, stop the killing, and then move to the condition for a more peace. we cannot do that publicly. it is impossible. juan: i want to ask you, next month president lula will be eating with the chinese leader xi jinping -- will be meeting with a chinese leader xi jinping at the end of march. china is brazil's numberne trading partner and china cently has put forth a 12 point peace plan. what do you think will be the main issues being discussed between brazil and china? and what is your sense of the chinese peace plan? >> well, t different -- there will be a lot to be discussed on trade, investment, technology, and so on.

but let's put that aside and -- for a moment in relation to the peace plan. of course there is a peace plan by china and by ukraine received one or two months ago. there are posive points like respect for sovereignty. of course we have to go further than that. china is a fundamental after. in all kdsf negotiations of this sort, you will need people are able -- on either side post thenited states, france, germany have natural influence on ukraine b you also have to have countries that have influence on russia and china certainly is one of them. we would like to discuss with them to know how much they have discussed with russia and expose

our own ideas. china is very important part. that does not mean you have to ree with china on everything. for a long time the united states was the biggest trading partner in brazil but still we disagreed on some points. juan: in terms of the russian foreign minister sergey lavrov visited last month in south africa, currently hosting russia and china for naval military exercises. south africa has a long history with russia and a troubled one with the united states. how does this history shape the alignments of the country today, if at all? >> well, i think it is important

today i also heard the vice minister said things about europe, under colonial rule it was the soviet union that helped them not south africa. but now have a diffent situation. i think we have to look for a peaceful world, a world in which the rus of thunited nations will be followed. i for one very much in defense -- of course we also need reform of the united nations, that is importt. but the charter of the united nations and international law to be respected. th means we cannot condone the invasion of russia, whatever motives they have, that is out of the question. but you have to seek your objectives in a peaceful way.

amy: we have five ins. -- i want to thank you for being with us. we're going to have an interview with you in spanish and posted on our spanish website at democracynow.org. celso amorim, foreign