>> it has been 20 years since the conflict in darfur began. hardly anyone talks about it these days. the violence has killed hundreds of thousands of people and displaced millions more. will peace ever come to western sudan? this is inside story. ♪ hello welcome to the program. this week marks a grim milestone for the people of western sudan.

the conflict in darfur began 20 years ago, killing hundreds of thousands of people and displaced more than 2 million. the peace agreement was signed in 2020. many are still in desperate need of humanitarian aid. victims are demanding justice. we have a lot to discuss with our guests. first, this update, from our reporter who spoke to the most affected at the camp in northern darfur. >> when war started in sudan's western region of sudan, this man said he did not expected to reach his village. but eventually it did. he and his family were forced to find refuge in this camp. >> we fled our homes in 2003. we were sheltering the opener under trees. we thought it went on last and continued farming that year. but we cannot harvest anything because it continued. people were killed. homes were burned. families were separated as they

fled. i was separated from my sons and only found them on the campus set up. >> the darfur war killed more than 300,000 people and over 2 million were forced from their homes. 20 years on, many areas in the region remain devastated from the war. villages and towns were emptied, as people fled to seeking safety. several camps have been set up across the region to shelter those escaping the fighting. many camps have been displaced, and they have turned into towns, replacing those that have been destroyed. but they lack basic services. there is no running water or electricity. many people rely on humanitarian aid. aide has been dwindling for those who live here. >> we have had received aid, but some have been canceled. some get them every six months. some regularly. large families that get aid not get enough to last them a month. >> the number of aid

organizations and the camp has also gone down. aid organizations say lack of funding is hampering their efforts. >> we don't have enough assistance to go around. we have limited resources. we are in a difficult position where we have to choose, from who gets assistance and who does not. we try to increase informing our donors of the plight and condition. >> this man says his children have no no other homes in the camps. after two decades of living as a displaced person, he is worried his grandchildren will also grow up with limited assistance in away from their home village. >> let's take a closer look at the conflict, which began in 2003, after ethnic african rebels rose up against then president. he responded by responding local arab militias, who targeted

non-arab tribes, accused of supporting the rebels. as we mentioned hundreds of thousands of people have been killed. millions more displaced. the international criminal court has charged bashir with genocide and crimes against humanity. he was forced to resign in 20 after widespread protest. -- 2019 after widespread protest. let's bringing our guests now. the chairman of the national liberation and justice party and a former governor of darfur state who was involved in negotiations and doha institute is the former chairman of the regional authority. and a professor at doha institute for graduate studies who writes extensively on sudan. also, the director of justice for africa sudan. thank you very much for being

with us on inside story. if i could begin with you. do you feel like the world has forgotten darfur and the conflict that has been going on for the last 20 years? >> yes. i do feel like so. the conflict is still going on. there are layers of the conflict. there is an armed conflict between the rebel movement and the government of sudan. and then there are private conflicts among the tribes in darfur. as far as the conflicts between the rebels and the government, it is over. concerning the agreement most of the rebel movement signed the peace agreement. he still has not signed the agreement. but, as far as that is

concerned, conflict has receded. however the private conflicts continued over the last few years. in addition, one of the issues that is posing problems to darfur, there is a wider scale -- of the people. this has been one of the important factors. security and are for. -- in darfur. the international community has invested almost an an amount between $15 billion. unfortunately i don't think they have achieved that much in development. i don't think there's any focus on in the international community on that.

that is very fortunate. tom: is that how you feel as well? darfur is being overlooked at this point in time? >> yes. i think it has always been overlooked. in the views that i have heard, this seemingly interest in the media in darfur. it did not help the actual people on the ground. there was not robust the link -- robust building. there was no aid. there was no attempts to look at the root of the issue. the only put soldiers over

there. they themselves are helpless. most of the time, the car was jacked, and they cannot even go to the police to find it for them. i think the conflict has also, as was mentioned, has created the transformation and undermined tribal relationships. i think also created not only bandits, but buildings of militias. it has become a livelihood. this distortion in the society and the environment need to be paid attention to. tom: can you explain to people who may not know, what is the heart of the issue here? after 20 years, it has not been resolved.

can you get to the heart of the issue? explain it for people. >> the core problems are security. if you look at when the war was started, we are now back in terms of level of confidence. the other thing, the international community abandoned the issue, without having a credible peacekeeping law enforcement agency, that on top of the issue is lack of support. now, many people are turning back to the villages so they can work. and that cannot because they have been attacked by the same militia. that is a problem. the international community simplifies the issue of darfur

and have not given the immediate attention to address it and resolve it. the killing is still there. we're back to square one. tom: does that feel like you're back at square one? what you think is going to solve some of the problems -- what do you think is going to solve some of the problems that sprung back to surface? >> i don't think we are back to square one. square one was a difficult time. we had confrontations between the government, support from the militia, innocent villages, so forth. i think we moved a step back, a bit. there is a lot of ground to cover in terms of achieving that in darfur. the fundamental issue is in their political world, from the center to resolve the conflict in darfur, i don't think there

is one. in 2016, we found in a program. that program was limited. the only way to have things normalized in darfur is to withdraw the arms from people. a lot of these people -- everyone has arms and everyone is willing to attack innocent civilians. that is a dangerous threat. there is a problem. at the same time, we feel that issues of the government, they have yet to pay attention to what is going on in darfur, to put an end to the misery of the people in darfur. tom: how do you go about disarming so many people in a peaceful and secure way? is it possible? >> yes.

i think he is right. in saying the conflict has died down. there is no longer fighting between government forces and movements. in hindsight, i think the situation is much worse than when the rebellion had started. this might be an indication that the armed conflict was on way to go about this. not by guns. the issue is now, when sudan, when this war started, that as a state or region, it was more prosperous than it is now.

sudan had more resources than it has now. at that time, oil has been found and was flowing. there was some prosperity. now, the community of sudan has collapsed -- the economy of sudan has collapsed almost. there is no way, for any of -- any other thing if you don't have resources. what you need is a plan. most of the rebel groups are part of the government. the government itself is not affectionate -- a faction at all because now the conflict has gone to the center. what we need is reach some consensus on a democratic

resolve as a whole. the international community should have a funds for resolving the issue in darfur. demobilizing militias. then we will have some movement. at the moment, as i said, bearing arms has become a way of life. either the militias are paid by the government or by foreign powers. or they go and pillage to live. this situation cannot be sustained. tom: you said that there should be democratic consensus. what are the chances of that happening anytime soon? >> i think -- i'm just

responding. i think if you look at the peace agreement, doha institute, they also are only providing jobs and donations for armed ones. the problem -- the conflict started and are for because of the government. because of the lack of security and the government supporting militia. that is why the arm movement was made, to protect the people. the other thing is i don't think the agreement, the attempts of articles are good, but have never been implemented on the ground. the only one limited on the ground is giving jobs to the leaders of the armed movements another settlers. not addressing the problem for the concern of the people which is security.

people can find enough work contributeto -- to contribute to sudan security. you need to address the issue of security. are we serious now? no. one point to show how it not serious it is, you should assign the same element, to actually be responsible to restoring peace and security, i don't think people are causing it. they used to be part of the killing machine. we need to have a credible force, which has been trusted by the people, so people can ensure that they are protected. that is the point. that is what is missing. i don't see any signs that we are going to go back to that point. tom: do you think that there is a possibility of a democratic election anytime soon? >> just to respond to what was

said. in order to implement a peace agreement, you need to have people in that position. this is an emotional argument, which some people say that the armed leaders are running for pollock -- politicians. i cannot speak to that. how many schools are built? how many health centers are established? how many police units how we established? they will tell you. on the records. on that. the only reason that that has not been so effectively -- it does not appear on the media is because of the security of the region. as far as democracy is concerned, the country is polarized on a political basis. on on a regional basis. i'ts -- it is not possible to

have 100% consensus on a democratic program to be implemented. we need to have at least some sort of consensus by 60% or 80% of the political parties and civil society on a program for governing the transition. it's not difficult to agree on that. the way i see it, is the international community is not helping in this respect. this is my own belief that those involved in the international community in providing support to sudanese is in their terms.

that does not help the country towards any kind of democratic system. tom: quickly, please. >> one of the most important issues affecting darfur is the regional issue. you know what is going on in libya. there is fighting going on. there are number of darfur -- people from darfur base their. china spacing problems. central africa government doesn't have -- they are not administering to the region. there is a war going on there. these groups -- they go in and out of darfur.

they bring arms. so, i think the issue of darfur, you said it, there is a need that the international community should help. particularly now we see the russian/french conflict in central africa and india. that has a lot of negative effects on security in darfur. tom: you touched on it a little earlier about the international interest. in 2006, when george clooney went to darfur and put the conflict on the world stage. do you think that helped or hindered? it seems like the situation didn't get better in the years after that, it? -- did it? >> i think it has hindered, personally, for many reasons. people became focused on what is happening in washington, even

the people in darfur were actually elated by this. they were told that the cover is going to come and the americans were going to send their troops in. do what they did in iraq and remove the president. that was a fantasy. i would add that may be being a little different the option taken had enhanced basic security, poverty and destruction. we blame the regime for having overreacted. but, the rebel movements

themselves, they have also committed atrocities. sometimes against their own members by inviting. -- in fighting. they have fragmented into smaller, tribal and clan movements. this is still an issue. now, regarding the issues, the people who are blocking consensus are minorities. the movement has been -- and we have observed, we told them in writing in the early period that this extremism will lead to more

damage. they are suffering from that. they are the ones who supported the defense forces. they are the ones who have refused to have broader consensus. now, that cannot. the international community is not going to help sudan, if sudan will not help itself. they have to be a democratic government. there has to be positive interaction between the people of sudan. tom: i know you've worked extensively with humanitarian groups on human and civil-rights. on a humanitarian level, what to the displaced people need from within sudan, but also from the international community? >> they need support.

this is not an option. the people are hard workers. what they need is security. that needs to be addressed, so people can go back to the community and work. they have very little support. i think -- that is the -- not the priority of the government or even our movement in the peace agreement. we clearly, from what we agree, i don't think they are priority. i understand people cannot rely on relief forever. that has to stop, because the international community will. relief. we needs -- need peace and secured he for people.

disarming of all the malicious -- militia will have to happen. that is the problem. peace and security is a progressive quit f -- perez acquit -- is a pre-rez acquit. and set of -- instead of receiving aid tenuously. we cannot put are offered to rebuild. tom: just before we have to go, do think that is the only way to make lasting change from here on out? >> let me just answer the question you asked earlier on the international community. >> i do believe that the adversary group have failed

abysmally. they have encouraged the pressure in darfur. intervention was so bad. it affected the work of the groups. as far as the situation in darfur, priority number one is to enable the refugees to go back to the earliest of origin. that can only happen if this serious disarmament of people and programming in darfur. without that there's no way we can normalize things in darfur. the issue we are concerned with, the government can do that, why it doesn't want to do that is the question we need to answer? the government, they have the combat troops, the ability to do it.

we don't see any program. you may probably say, we don't have a government -- a credible government, but that is not an excuse. i have just come back from darfur, why was there for months. i visited people, and innocent people have lasted lives -- have lost their lives. they themselves have become producers now. the question is, when they go back in the rainy season for farming, they have been attacked. they have been targeted. this is where the government should ship in and disarm -- chip in and disarm the militia.

beyond of the armed forces and the secured he forces. tom: we are going to have to leave it there. thank you to all of our guests. thank you for being on inside story today. thank you too for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera.com. for further discussion go to our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. @ajinsidestory. bye for now.

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