more award-winning documentaries and live news. >> the u.k. and e.u. have reached an agreement to break the deep stalemate on trade and customs in northern ireland. the deal came nearly seven years since britain voted to leave the bloc, so is brexit finally done ? this is "inside story." ♪ hello. welcome to the program. u.k. and eu leaders have clinched a new deal for northern

ireland's trading arrangements, solving one of the toughest challenges caused by brexit. prime minister rishi sunak calls it a decisive victory and represents a new start of relations with the eu. european commission president ursula von der leyen says the deal will allow both sides to begin a new chapter. it comes nearly seven years since britain voted to leave the eu. before this, northern ireland and the republic of ireland, which is part of the eu, shared the same trading rules, but it caused a problem, how to avoid a hard border in the sensitive region. disputes over the deal have prevented a government from forming in northern ireland. >> it is not often in u.k.-eu relations that optimism wins the day, so this was a rare moment, a smile that said the deal had been done. >> today's agreement delivers

smooth-flowing trade within the united kingdom, protect northern ireland's place in our union and safeguards sovereignty for the people of northern ireland. >> the eu chief executive hailed a new honesty in the relationship and spoke of her pride in the so named in's or framework, updating the original northern ireland protocol that governs post brexit trade between the u.k. and e.u. -- so named windsor framework. >> this new framework provides for long-lasting solutions that both of us are confident will work for all people and businesses in northern ireland. >> the deal provides for smoother trade between the u.k. mainland and northern ireland, eliminating most checks on basic foodstuffs, plants, and medicines. it is said to safeguard the good friday peace agreement while upholding the sovereignty of northern ireland, allowing its devolved assembly a veto over future rules decided by brussels

, but no deal can overcome the fundamental brexit contradiction , that northern ireland remains in both the u.k. and e.u.'s single market for goods, so the role of eu law, while diminished, will not disappear entirely, which may be a dealbreaker for democratic unionists and the hard core of pro-brexit and p's in the conservative party, both of whom the prime minister appealed to when he addressed parliament. >> it does what many said could not be done, removing thousands of pages of eu laws and making permanent, legally binding changes to the protocol treaty is self. >> the prime minister has confirmed a vote will take place in the house of commons before this new deal can become u.k. law. there's no chance of losing it. he has already been promised the support of the opposition labor party. what mr. sunak will help to avoid this for yet another new

divide to form inside the conservative party over brexit. brexit was supposed to have been done at the end of 2020. in truth, it was never going to be done until the problem of northern ireland was done. the u.k. and eu leaders are hoping it finally has been. >> rishi sunak should know not to be too soothed by this warm-scented bath of praise he has been receiving since monday in british press for his new deal with the european union. people are genuinely surprised by the depth and scope of the deal and encouraged by this new atmosphere of cooperation and dialogue with the european union, where some of rishi sunak's predecessors had chosen a more combative and adversarial approach, but rishi sunak know the real acid test for this deal is how it goes down here in northern ireland, and if you

speak to people in the business community here, i think they are generally encouraged. if you think two people on the street, i think many are generally encouraged as well, but the main powerbroker for this is the main unionist party, who pulled out of power-sharing in the assembly more than a year ago in protest over the protocol . it is they who have to be satisfied, and they are not going to be rushed into passing judgment. they are going to go through it line by line, as their leader said, and make sure that when it comes to this decision, it is the right one and the consensus line within the party. they will want to know that this deal basically safeguards northern ireland's constitutional position within the united kingdom and that the role of european law is kept as minimal as possible in northern ireland and that trade is

essentially unfettered. why does it matter? until the dep are content with this deal, they will not return to power-sharing, and northern ireland will effectively remain without a functioning government, and that is having a real impact on services like health and education, things that matter perhaps more than the protocol, perhaps more than this windsor framework to northern -- two more people in northern ireland. >> here's how the so-called north ireland protocol has been changed. when the u.k. left the eu, a customs border was drawn between northern ireland and the rest of the united kingdom, which angered unionists, but under the new windsor framework, goods will be separated into a greenlee for goods traveling into northern ireland and a red lane for those moving into the eu. let's bring in our guest. in london, a senior research fellow at u.k. interchanging

europe, a senior fellow for government works and policy on brexit. in belfast, a historian, author, and columnist with the irish news, and in dublin, a professor at the school of law and government at dublin city university, also author of "from partition to brexit." a warm welcome to all of my guests. it seems an intractable problem may well have been solved. does it make you wonder why they did not think of this before? >> they did think of it before. the problem has been for the last two years the british government under boris johnson and then for a short period liz truss have been refusing to operate the protocol and have brought in legislation to try to remove the protocol, and the eu

had begun infringement proceedings against the british government because of the attitude they have taken. what we believe is the solution was sitting there since about october 2021, but the british government, under its prime minister, was refusing to take it. when rishi sunak came to power, he quickly decided to reset the relationship with the eu. really, all the emphasis at the moment is on northern ireland and its response. this is about resetting the relationship with the eu. >> coming to you in london, you have worked on brexit. you know it inside out from behind the scenes. the northern -- was the north ireland issue and trades and

borders always a problem? was it always in the mindset of the british government from when the vote was taken back in 2016? what is your take on it? >> i think it is again two halves, you might say. i think it was not sufficiently in the mindset of either david cameron, the prime minister who announced the referendum, nor during the campaign featured when john major and tony blair, two prime ministers who have done a lot to bring peace to northern ireland, went to northern ireland and said a vote for brexit could cause problems, but it was not a big issue in the campaign, and i think it really only dawned on the british government quite late in the day in 2017 after they had set off negotiating a withdrawal agreement, this really was going to be a big problem, and the eu was very much going to side with the irish government in demanding a solution upfront, but when the northern irish issue did take center stage, it

became a huge, big issue. it is effectively what caused the downfall of theresa may, when her backstop proposal failed to gain the consent of her you're skeptic members of parliament. it triggered the advent of boris johnson. he then did this protocol deal, which rishi sunak has been trying to make more workable in order to allow the u.k. to exit the eu in 2020, so it has been a long-running subject and has been a thorn in u.k.-eu relations ever since it really emerged as a really difficult issue to solve, this issue of how to avoid a land border in ireland while protecting the integrity of the eu single market, while also allowing northern ireland to remain part of the u.k.'s internal market. >> let's get the opinion on this in dublin. we will get into the good friday agreement a little bit later in

this discussion. that is what the whole border agreement is about as well, but how do you think dublin is reacting to the news of the last 24 hours? dublin were very aware that the border between northern ireland and the republic would always be an issue, even before the 2016 referendum and the way the british government knew this was going to happen, they were on the ball, weren't they, with the eu, telling them this would be a problem? >> absolutely. during the referendum, the irish government were acutely aware of the negative ramifications that would arise in what would be a transformational act, if actually the united kingdom left the european union. ireland and the united kingdom joined the european union together. there had never been a situation before where one was outside and one was inside. despite their advice, they

proceeded without really looking at the implications. they did not even decide what kind of brexit they wanted. it was not clear in 2016 if they would leave the single market, the customs union. all those things work decided after the decision was made to leave the united kingdom. then, of course, it was complicated further by the fact that the majority of people in ireland voted against brexit, voted to stay in the european union, and that is sometimes lost in this debate. many of the changes that have come about as a result of this agreement have been made to assuage the fears of the dep, but it is worth remembering the dep got 27% of the vote in northern ireland during recent elections. >> where do you see the process as it is at the moment with prime minister sunak heading to northern ireland in terms of the way he has got to deal with the unionists now, and, dare i say it, the power that they hold?

is that power that they hold? >> it is very important for rishi sunak to try to get the dep on board, to try to get them to support this deal. it is a good deal, and it is a deal that people in britain and elsewhere said would never happen, that the european union would not agree. the problem for rishi sunak is that the dep decide not to go back into the executive installment, then people are going to say, well, he did all this for nothing, and the eu is also going to be in the position of saying, once again, we have been in negotiations with the british government. we have done a list in good faith. we have stretch ourselves, and at the end of the day, nothing has come of it, so there will be a much darker mood in brussels if the executive is not up and running again, so sunak is trying very, very hard. some people would say he is

overselling to try to convince the dep to go into installments. if there's no executive and no local government, than the whole place is likely to be destabilized. >> in dublin, you are agreeing with mr. feeney in belfast? >> yeah, i mean, there's a lot of frustration. when you think that brexit was voted upon seven years ago and since that time, we have had five british prime ministers in the european union has been negotiating with a british government at war with itself, you see the same conservative party in power all the time, but such is the factionalism within the party that when a new governor comes in, it is on most like a change of government. you have to remember the european union's 27 countries. sometimes they have to take regional governments into account. and every time an agreement was

signed, they more or less stuck to an agreement and the british government imploded and found that it could not implement or stick with the agreement it had signed. boris johnson more or less disowned the agreement he made in 2019. i think from the european union's perspective, they are very much hoping that this is the beginning of the end because the relationship will still evolve. brexit has not even taken root just yet. this is more about laying down the framework of what the relationship will be going forward. the mood music was very good yesterday. ursula von der leyen was describing sunak as "dear rishi ." >> can i bring you in from london? it is all about the mood and the murmurings that come because for

northern ireland and for the government in westminster, it has to think about a whole load of things, doesn't it? northern ireland's integrity, its relationship with the eu, issues of nationalism and republicanism, do people feel british or irish? they have to take that into consideration. from your position dealing with government ministers at that time, what is your opinion about the difficult road the government has to now tread to try to make sure this agreement work properly? >> i think it is very interesting. i slightly disagree with your other contributors. i think there's a huge challenge for rishi sunak, one which i think is a big problem for the eu in many ways, which is can he get his party to by this agreement so he does not have to go back, try to reopen it, all work keep pressurized to proceed with the northern ireland protocol bill? he agreed to drop it. it could always be resurrected.

from the eu point of view, do they finally have a british government that is prepared to do a deal, can get it through parliament, manage it politically, and then move to implementation? the second big domestic issue is can he persuade the dup, first of all, to acquiesce in this agreement? they are never going to embrace it with open arms, but will they regard it at some point in the not-too-distant future as providing the basis for resurrecting the power-sharing institution? those are the two tests he needs to apply, but one of the big issues all along with the unionist committee is yes, the dup campaign for brexit. other unionist parties did not. the dup did but never really addressed the issue of how the border would work post brexit. i don't think they expected brexit to win. most people did not in the u.k. establishment.

the thinking that was done in ireland was never really replicated pre-referendum in the u.k., but there was definitely dealing during the brexit negotiations that the nationalist voice had very good expressions through the actions of the government of ireland and through the european union reflecting those concerns, whereas the unionist voice was subjugated, if you like, to the wider concerns of the u.k. government to determine -- determined to secure the sort of brexit it wanted, allowing a hard brexit with a lot of divergence, and that basically at the end of the day, when push came to shove, boris johnson sacrificed the unionist interest in the interest of the sort of brexit he felt he had to deliver . >> you were shaking your head in agreement or disagreement there, but i also want to bring in that the dep said they are going to

look at this agreement and go through it with a fine tooth comb. can you just come in with your thoughts? >> yeah, first of all, the dup union's position was not subjugated by the government. the unions supported the hardest line. in fact, the deputy leader in westminster was a member on the board of vote leave, so they wanted a hard border. now they are going to have to take a big decision, if they will accept this agreement, and there is another issue that is not just accepting it, long term. the dup is quite concerned that they may be severely criticized by a hard-line party called the traditional with -- traditional

unionist boys who are pulling about 7% at the moment, and that means the dup people lose votes to them. then they lose council seats as well. they have to decide -- do they jump before the council elections or do they prevaricate until afterwards? if they don't, they will be isolated because this is going fast through westminster. it's going to get a big majority. >> the labour party have said they will consult the government. let me ask you for a very brief answer from belfast. you talk about elections in may. your sense on the ground of people in northern ireland, they have not had a functioning government for some time now. they have seen politicians take the salary but not do the job they were actually voted in to do. could this backfire on the

politicians you might say have stuck their foot in the door and not allowed the door to be shut properly on this deal? >> it certainly could backfire. there's a huge crisis in health. the longest waiting lists in britain and ireland here. the shortage of education. there's a 500 million pound black hole in the budget in the north of ireland, and the dup are being blamed by business for not getting back in before the day, so there are big decisions for jeffrey donaldson to make in the next few days. they are having a meeting on saturday to try to decide what line they will take, but he's going to have to decide, do they go in in the short term or in the long-term, or do they state on which case they are going to be isolated?

-- or do they simply stay out, in which case they will be isolated? >> from your take, how much input has there been from dublin through the eu to bring the u.k. and mr. sunak's ideas to fruition to the point that we are at now? >> the irish government has a vested interest in finding the closest possible relationship between the united kingdom and european union. it is certainly in ireland's interest as the only frontier between the european union and the united kingdom. we are the fault line, as it were. i just wanted to address the part about the unionist position not being paired. the dup held the balance of power in westminster during theresa may's administration, and indeed, theresa may had to humiliating we withdraw from an agreement which she had already entered because the dup said it was not hard enough from their

perspective. there's no question the union perspective was an integral part of the negotiating position, but in a way, they have become a victim of their own success in getting the kind of brexit that they campaigned for, and it is kind of a utopian brexit, an ideological one, not one that serves the interests economically for northern ireland indeed. what has been tried to happen with this agreement is to salvage what has been done because of brexit, which is generally considered to be an act of economic self-harm. there is an opportunity, and rishi sunak put that to businesspeople today because being within the u.k. single market, within the eu single market, it does have a privileged position. sunak said it perhaps was the best economic zone in the world. perhaps again he is overselling, but he does have a point. >> we talk about opportunities here. in terms of opportunities, some people say that sunak has played

at masterstroke, even to his cabinet members who are brought brexiteers. part of the erg group, hard right wing part of the conservative party, they have actually said this agreement is ok. i'm just wondering about what the status is of the hard right in the conservative party if these two individuals are reflective of the right wing and the er j or if there is a split in the party now. >> one of the big debates is -- how powerful is the erg hard-line now? we saw it reduced around 20 people who voted against theresa may the first time, and people are right. of course, the dup misjudge things terribly. they rejected theresa may's deal, which was trying to help them help reconcile this dilemma, but then they were thrown under a bus by boris johnson when he signed up to the protocol that they disliked so much.

but coming back to this, we don't know yet. it is clearly a huge win for rishi sunak that he has managed this through with no resignations from his cabinet. quite a few were on resignation watch. yesterday in parliament was a very different mood to earlier discussions on brexit we have heard, when theresa may presented her backstop to parliament, it took well over an hour, i think, for any other conservative to speak in favor of it. yesterday, quite a number of big figures in the boat leave campaign work lauding rishi sunak for the deal he has landed. that said, the soda drg all trust have said they want to take time to study the deal. they are convening what they call their star chamber of lawyers to go through the massive documents that were published yesterday with a fine tooth comb, and they will find things in it they don't like. they will find the prime

minister has slightly oversold some of the gains, and if you don't want a deal, then you will find reasons not to like this deal, but if you think that basically you only get a good, solid relationship with the eu going forward and bring stability to north island by having some sort of negotiated settlement, then you probably reckon that this is pretty well as good as it will get. >> let me jump in to brian feeney in belfast. we are close to the end of the program. we did talk about this soft and hard border. the good friday agreement revolves around predominantly the border between the north and the south, and president biden has always said that the good friday agreement is untouchable. you have to keep it in place, and rishi sunak knows if he can agree with all the parties involved, that they can have a workable solution to the intractable problem of northern ireland, it could open the door to washington, that trade deal

that sunak would like with the united states. i was wondering if this was the opportunity that sunak is looking for, the long-term vision, and that would help northern ireland as well. >> well, yes, this really is about resetting the u.k.-e.u. and u.k.-u.s. relations. joe biden has already endorsed this agreement. rishi sunak in fact promised joe biden that the -- at the g7 that he would have a deal before the 25th anniversary of the good friday agreement, which is coming up in april. it is more than just about northern ireland. yesterday, ursula von der leyen immediately offered the u.k. access to the eu's horizon program for research and innovation, which is 95.5 billion euros over the next five years.

it is important this gets up and running, but it is about the eu, u.k., and u.s. relationship being reset after two or three really bad years. >> we shall see how quickly it all does get reset. unfortunately, we have to leave it there. i would like to thank all my guests. thank you so much for joining us on this edition of "inside story." you can see the program again any time by visiting our website , and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. thank you very much for your time and your company. ♪

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