a continuing protest being proposed for the changes to the judicial system. how is it all likely to end? this is inside story. ♪ >> hello and welcome to the program.

israel is in the grip of a political crisis driven by the policies far right coalition. a wave of raids has led to scores of palestinians being killed and injured. that jewish settlers attacked palestinian communities under the watch of the israeli army and widespread protests planned judicial reforms of sweat -- swept the country. we will be discussing all of this in a few moments with our guests. first, a report from occupied east jerusalem. >> the protests are holding firm. protesters have been out on the streets every saturday in large numbers. in cases like -- in places like tel aviv and west jerusalem and they are having their birth -- voices heard. they say the judicial reform bill is anti-democratic. anti-democratic accusation that

the protesters keep saying it's happening. the government is referring to them as anarchists and saying these people are being funded ia foreign hand. the cia -- funded by foreign hand. that relationship is under a threat as well. the prime minister desperate to go to two key places. both of those countries are extending -- the reason for that is a makeup of his government. in order to get power, you have to give concessions to the far right. people like the finance minister who said the other day the palestinian village should be wiped out by the israeli state. they also have the national security minister on wednesday. he ordered police to crack down

on protesters in tel aviv. that has never been seen before. stun grenades were used. heavy-handed, the kind of thing we see against public. they say they need to have a heavy hand when it comes to palestinians, when it comes to dealing with the israeli protesters as well. however, that is angering a lot of the protesters who are now saying that we are headed toward being a dictatorship. the prime minister eventually wants to become that dictator. also, a lot of analysts suggest no reason for this judicial bill. the prime minister and the other ministers have caught cases

against them. all of is coming to a head. what that had it looks like, we have no idea but something is brewing. the protesters know it. the israelis know it. >> for more on this, i'm joined by our guests in tel aviv. a member of the national leadership. standing together, grassroots movement in israel. in brussels, we have chief diplomatic correspondent in europe for the new york times. welcome to all of you. gideon, i would like to start with you. try to get an idea of the level of support or otherwise for these reforms. we've seen widespread protests

this week. >> is very hard to judge, but it's very clear that the elite of israel, the financial and the military is against this reform. the lower class -- conflict between, the lower classes are still supporting and by the end of the day, half-and-half roughly speaking. >> would that be your assessment as well? what would be left behind of the north african jews.

inherited -- what strikes me is the anger from the elite no one talks about. it's like they have been woken up from sleep. >> you are one of the many, many many protesting against these changes. just to give us some context, tell us about your group, what it represents and what you stand for. >> absolutely. standing together is, we are a grassroots movement. we work throughout the country locally as well as nationally. what's standing together is really trying to do through these protesters, not led by a movement, but rather led by tens of organizations. a very organic mobilization.

what we are trying to do is understand also strategically as well as politically. it was the best way we can capitalize on this moment? >> you represent all sides and you've been protesting today. what sense have you got? >> the mood is very accurate and stephen really described is the elite and while that's good because usually the elite does not have, usually can voice out its frustrations and demanding much more effective way, it is not enough. what we are trying to do is extend that to the palestinian citizens of israel who obviously oppose the reforms but are not

taking any active part in these protests as well as social and geographic as was mentioned and the support base of the government. >> what is your sense of how much opposition and how much support? >> the question is not about support if you really look at real change and revolutions. active opposition and at the moment, unfortunately, the current protest is overlooking the base of the current government which is geographic economic and social geographies. of israel. but they are also overlooking the palestinians and israel which i think are the key so i would say they are a large minority. they are still a minority. >> stephen and your role in

jerusalem as bureau chief, you got to know the prime minister very well. what you think his reservations are for these changes? >> i can't read into his brain first of all. it's very complicated. i think he is confused himself, but there is a political element which is he wants to stay in power. his base is changing. it's come -- it's becoming more religious, more right-wing and he has made basically, he has gone to bed with some people he would not have touched in the past and he has done that to the npower and he lights power but he is good -- and in some ways he is good at it. he wants to stay out of jail. as long as he is in power, he has immunity from prosecution

from long-standing charges that he knows a lot more about than i do, but basically have to do with corruption and taking benefits in office. so as long as he is prime minister, he stays out of jail and as long as he is in bed with some of these very ultrareligious close to ultra right wing coalition partners, he gets to stay in power. it is a complicated issue. in his own head, i hope there is some degree. >> does is positioning the surprise you in any way? >> that's like asking me about vladimir putin. i used to know him too, but people change and people get a bit desperate. i think maybe he has a bit of, he's a narcissist and he thinks

he is the best to beat israel and i think he worries about iran and he worries about a lot of things. he believes he can control his partners but we have to see of that is actually true. does he really want to upturn entire israeli constitutional system? i think in his heart of hearts he doesn't. but i'm not sure he knows quite how to manage what he is now in bed with. >> gideon, what is your sense? >> i couldn't agree more with steve. i think in many ways, the prime minister is a story of a tragedy. a highly gifted politician, and intellectual, someone who is the most loved and most hated figure for the last 15 -- 50 years or

so. he has pushed himself into an impossible corner in which rightly mentioned he finds himself surrounded by people he would not like to be surrounded with and impositions are not sure are his positions, but the train left the station. he is there. he is stuck there. right now, his presence creates terrible turmoil for israel, which by the way may end up in a good way because for people like me, the ongoing masquerade in which nobody dealt with anything except the next vacation in the next new jeep and here all of a sudden, society woke up.

it woke up on the wrong reasons. it's -- it still keeps a blind eye over the competition. still, there is a wake-up call. the prime minister created but his behavior. and to see who are we? don't they see? maybe this will lead them to realize they are living. >> we will explore that a little more in a second. where you think this is all heading?

the tone has been very quickly set with all the violence and so forth and pushing through of the changes to the judiciary. >> what about the protests? how do you think they are going to protest. >> i definitely, you know this is a very, this is a historic junction for the public who is for the first time, i think, really questioning the idea of democracy. democracy for the first time is really on the main table being discussed. the main discussion was triggered for the wrong reasons. i do think it's our and a new

left that is emerging in israel which did not exist for many years and now it's a little stronger than it was before. a left that is jewish arab in essence. it is more progressive and would be successful to talk to not only the old elite which is now on the street conditional partnerships that we had. now we have a new kind of partnership and a new kind of majority. if we are able to capitalize on that and redefine democracy, and by the way and not just for the jewish people but also for a very certain group of jewish israelis.

if you ask former ussr immigrants, they tell you they don't feel like they were fully partners of the easter -- western democracy. do we want to redefine democracy? i cannot tell you what's going to happen. i think we were at -- we are not as big as he want to be and going coming to this moment, but i do think there are many opportunities that will -- we will be able to take with us. and hopefully, we will be able to compete. >> it's the question. could this be a tipping point, steve? what about the international community? what the far right has done is

to remove the mask that enables rick -- complacency. will this precipitate anything meaningful as far as the international community is concerned? or -- concerned? >> in my experience, in america and europe, there has been reluctance to recognize that israel has to change. there's still an image of an old israel which is more liberal. israel is everyone here knows as the show is becoming more right-wing, it's views about its own citizens let alone palestinians which support more and more settlements grabbing

land. this is not your grandfather's israel. young americans, i would say americans under let's say 35, do have trouble with this emergency. in simple terms, creating palestinian victims, people aren't very sophisticated without the complications of a small complicated intimate country and people are not very sophisticated about the problems and what it's like on the west bank. in gaza, i admire levy for so long and so well but i think right now the world is looking at ukraine that's what i've been

doing for the last year. the attention on israel is quite intermittent. i think this kind of thing hurts, very much hurts israel's image to the rest of the world and its leverage. we see israel moving toward better relations with the golf. with arab countries. that is going on to and we should not forget that. >> a tell you that the world will change and the world will start treating israel, but it is

no way to go. a very long way to go. there are first signs. 55 years of brutal occupation, you gain some so -- you gain some because you see europe, even the germans voted. to see -- took criticized israel. the united states is giving the cold shoulder to the prime minister. as long as the world will not move, very well-to-do with russia as long as you do not move from side to pursuit -- but

i think there is an opening now because there is a generation. the general -- the jewish new generation in the united states. stop to ask questions. the other americans are asking, israel raided the place that deserve so much money. ignores our policy, eight north our request. so it is a long way to go, but it is a nice beginning. >> do you think the prime minister underestimates the strength of the opposition? >> i don't think so. i think he was aware and anticipating this kind of opposition. i just think he did not have a choice.

he is, i don't know however if he was aware of how much, when you're desperate i don't think he was very calculating without estimating his jean -- genius. i think you may be underestimated. the kind of predicament he's going to find himself in, but also the international committee. >> do you think the ongoing attacks on palestinians will intensify? >> i think so, unfortunately. this is the one thing, escalations and occupy territories. with palestinians, occupy territories. has been very useful maybe not

for her. we see that now. they are really trying to provoke and allowing provocations. the minister is in his government and it works why it works because it polarizes exactly in the opposite direction that benefits them. palestinians, it definitely creates a false sense of unity to the jewish public which is exactly what would serve him. i don't think it's working. even though i was very critical of the protests and the fact that they did not criticize or they did not oppose, not just the judicial reform, but the settler reform.

we see really steep, really determine steps. i do think he is really aware of that. it's a very dangerous situation. >> steve, i just want to bring u.n.. this has had a big impact on the economy, very closely at downgrading israel. >> that creates pressure. he's one of the best finance ministers israel has ever had. i would sit back in the last moment i have to say she is making a very good point which

is the bidens can be used in all kinds of ways. eking be provoked, it can, bb is writing -- riding a tiger. >> nobody knows. you cannot see any scenario which ends it. both sides are very strong in their demands. there might be something from the outside which we did make a change. sometimes the violence can put an end to this or at least a temporary end, but no doubt that israel after this turmoil will not be the same israel. is it going to be this -- this

is a very open question. >> lets and on you. what is your sense about how this is going to go over the next weeks and months. >> i do know as an organizer and as a palestinian, and as this is an action -- this is a time we are at very very dangerous times. it is not reversible. i am not underestimating the things that can be reversible that will limits our space to act. the things that i can do within israel. i also think we need to look forward, not just to next week

and the next protest. but we need to start thinking of how to proactively attack this government and strategically build a new kind of opposition and with that we redefined the left and israel and democracy. that does not take weeks or months. that takes years. i think this will be the point where more people will join us into building this new space. >> it has been a big important conversation, perhaps at a critical moment. thanks to all of our guests. thanks a lot. thanks for watching. you can see the program again at any time by visiting the website. will further discussion, go to our facebook page. you can also join the

conversation on twitter. from me and the whole team. it's goodbye. ♪

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