03/13/23 03/13/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> i think this is a victory for alogue, offering significant good news for today's turbulent world. amy: iran and saudi arabia have agreed to restore diplomatic ties after four days of secret meetings in beijing. we will look at what this means for the middle east and china's growing role in the region. then we go to north pole,

alaska, as president biden prepares to approve a massive oil and gas development in alaska known as the willow project. then to east palestine, ohio, as senators grill the head of norfolk southern over the company's toxic train derailment. >> you talked about covering the needs of the people of east palestine. does that include paying for their health care needs? all of their health care needs? >> senator, we're going to do what is right for the citizens. >> what is right is to cover their health care needs. we do that? >> everything is on the table, sir. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in california, at least eight migrants died after two boats capsized off the coast of san diego saturday. a woman aboard one of the boats called 911 late that night

asking for help. when authorities arrived, they found two boats but no survivors. there are no further details about the victims. boats attempting to cross from mexico to the u.s. have become more frequent in recent years as the biden administration continues to enforce harsh immigration and border policies that have blocked most people from seeking asylum at the southern border and safely enter the ited states. meanwhile in europe, over 1300 people aard three overcrowded migrant boats were rescued in -- off the southern italian coast saturday as the death toll from a shipwreck off the shore of calabria two weeks ago has risen to 76. three more bodies were found saturday, including two children. that same day, thousands protested near the site of the shipwreck denouncing italy's deadly anti-immigrant policies. meanwhile, at least 30 migrants are missing in the central mediterranean after their boat capsized sunday as they fled libya for italy. over a dozen others were rescued by italian authorities.

in turkey, at least five migrants drownedff the coury southern coast saturday as they travel to greece on a rubber boat. and in spain, a group of 48 migrants were rescued friday off the canary islands. iran and saudi arabia agreed to re-establish diplomatic relations, in a deal brokered friday by china and signed in beijing. the agreement ends a seven-year row between the two countries, who plan to reopen their embassies within two months. this is ali shamkhani, secretary of the supreme national security council of iran, who represented tehran at the talks. >> at the end of the talks, we reached a conclusion to start a new chapter after seven years of breaking off relations between saudi and saudi arabia -- between iran and saudi arabia. prevent meddling from western states and the zionist regime in

the region. amy: the news comes at a time of heightened tensions between washington and tehran, and washington and beijing. the white house cautiously welcomed the deal while denying it signaled china's incrsing glob influence as national security council spokesperson john kirby said the u.s. would not be stepping back from its role in the middle east. in the occupied west bank, israeli soldiers killed three palestinian men in a shoot-out near nablus on sunday morning. the violence came a day after an estimated half-million people rallied in cities across israel for a 10th consecutive week of protests against plans by israel's far-right government to gut the judiciary. meanwhile, hundreds of demonstrators, led by several american-jewish organizations, protested a visit by israel's finance minister to washington, d.c., sunday after the biden administration granted him a diplomatic visa to speak at an investment conference. bezalel smotrich was accused of backing a pogrom against

palestinians when he said earlier this month that israel should erase the palestinian town of huwara. his comments came just days after jewish settlers attacked the town, burning cars and homes and killing a palestinian man. in the democratic republic of congo, at least 19 people were killed sunday by suspected rebels from the allied democratic forces in the eastern village of kirindera in north kivu province. this comes just days after a twin raid in the same region killed at least 36 people. this is a survivor of that attack. >> the situation here is catastrophic because of the attack and the damage. many people died after their threats were cut. their houses were burned down. in the hospital where we are standing, even medicines and the hospital material was burned. amy: the u.n. is warning of a mounting humanitarian disaster in the drc as some 300,000 people fled violence in north kivu province last month.

this is a unhcr spokesperson. >> our teams reported the most horrifying testimonies of human rights violations in affected areas, especially -- including terry collins, kidnapping, extortion, and rapes. amy: calls have been mounting for rwandan president paul kagame to stop supporting m23 rebels, whose attacks have led to the displacement of over half a million people, though rwanda has denied any involvement. the biden administration said sunday it will bar future oil and gas leasing for 3 million acres of federal waters in the arctic ocean and will limit drilling in a further 13 million acres in the national petroleum reserve in alaska's north slope. the announcements came as the white house prepared to issue its final decision on the willow project, a proposed $8 billion conocophillips oil and gas

development in northern alaska. on friday, the white house denied reports the administration is prepared to green-light the project, saying no final decision has been made. indigenous and environmental groups have been fighting the project for years. later in the broadcast, we will speak with siqiñiq maupin. saudi aramco announced profits of over $161 billion last year, the largest ever annual profit for any fossil fuel company, agnès callamard, secretary-general of amnesty international, said the figure was shocking and called on saudi arabia, which owns almost all of saudi aramco, to phase out fossil fuels and use the exorbitant profits from its oil sales to support human and environmental rights. other major oil companies also reported record revenues in as 2022 demand surged amid the war in ukraine. california residents are bracing

for more extreme weather as another atmospheric river has put about 15 million people in california and nevada under flood watches. in northern california's monterey county, the river breached a levy over the weekend, triggering an uncontrolled flow of water into the surrounding areas and forcing thousands of people to flee their homes. in peru, at least six people were killed and hundreds of homes damaged or destroyed over the weekend as a powerful cyclone unleashed torrential rains. elsewhere, australia's queensland state experienced record-breaking floods sparked by heavy rain, prompting evacuations. and on sunday, cyclone freddy made landfall in mozambique for the second time in a month, breaking an all-time record for the longest-lived tropical cyclone and the highest accumulated energy ever observed in a storm. u.s. banking regulators have taken extraordinary measures to

shore up the financial system after a run on silicon valley bank in california last week caused its sudden collapse and sparked fears of financial contagion. the biden administration says all of silicon valley bank's depositors will have access to their funds today, including uninsured deposits and those exceeding the $250,000 cap set by the federal deposit insurance corporation. the fdic, the federal reserve, and the treasury department have taken similar steps to protect depositors at signature bank of new york, a major lender to cryptocurrency companies, after its rapid collapse on sunday. these are the second- and third-largest bank failures in u.s. history. cecilia rouse, chair of the white house council of economic advisers, sought to downplay fears of a wider collapse. >> our banking system is in a fundamentally different place that it was a decade ago and that is the reforms that were put in place back then that really provide the kind of resilience we would like to see.

we have faith in our regulators. amy: a bill signed by then-president trump in 2018 rolled back key parts of the dodd-frank banking regulations passed after the 2008 financial crisis. 17 democratic senators and 13 house democrats sided with republicans in support of the deregulation, which ended mandates that banks keep more cash and other liquid assets on hand to prevent bank runs. 2018 law also rolled back stress tests that might have exposed weaknesses at silicon valley bank and signature bank. silicon valley bank's ceo greg becker lobbied congress in 2015 for the rollback of dodd-frank. president biden is addressing this issue in a speech today. in georgia, an independent autopsy of an activist who was fatally shot by atlanta police in january concludes their hands were raised when they were killed. georgia state patrol shot

26-year-old manuel esteban terán, known as tortuguita, as they raided the encampment of forest protectors who have been opposing the construction of atlanta's $90 million police training center dubbed cop city. the autopsy, which will be released in full today, also reveals tortuguita was likely seated cross-legged when shot. tortuguita's family on friday sued the city of atlanta after the release of more video evidence of the shooting was blocked. the killing has drawn national attention to cop city as protests spread across the country. former vice president mike pence delivered his sharpest criticism yet of former president trump for his role in the january 6 capitol insurrection. pence told attendees at the annual gridiron dinner, an elite d.c. event bringing establishment reporters and politicians together -- "his reckless words endangered my family and everyone at the capitol that day, and i know history will hold donald trump

accountable." his remarks came even as he is resisting a federal grand jury subpoena to testify about january 6. and the 95th academy awards were handed out in los angeles last night. the malaysian-born michelle yeoh made history as the first asian woman to win for best actress for her role in "everything everywhere all at once." it also won best picture. >> for all the little boys and girls who look like me watching tonight, this is a beacon of hope and possibilities. amy: ke huy quan won best supporting actor for the same film, marking the first time two asian actors win oscars in the same year. ruth carter became the first black woman to win two oscars after she took home the costume design trophy for "black panther: wakanda forever" last night, four years after winning for "black panther." the winner of best documentary

was "navalny," about prominent russian opposition leader alexei navalny and his 20 poisong and imprisonment and anticorruption movement. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now,! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show looking at a new agreement by iran and saudi arabia to re-establish diplomatic relations after a seven-year rift. the deal was reached after four days of secr talks ibeijing in a sign china's growing diplomatic power. as part of the deal, iran and saudi arabia have agreed to reopen their embassies within two months. china's top diplomat wang yi called the agreement a victory for peace. >> i think this is a victory for dialogue, a victory for peace, offering significant good news for today's turbulent world. amy: u.n. secretary general antonio guterres praised the

deal saying -- "good neighborly relations between iran and saudi arabia are essential for the stability of the gulf region." the response in washington was more muted. white house national security council spokesman john kirby said the biden administration supported any effort to de-escalate tensions in the region, but he questioned if iran is going to "meet their obligation" ali shamkhani, the secretary of iran's supreme national security council, spoke friday in beijing. >> at the end of the talks, we reached a conclusion to start a new chapter after seven years are breaking off relations between the islamic republic of iran and saudi arabia. while considering the matters of the two countries and the security and features of the region, to prevent meddling from regional and western states and consisted meddling of the zionist regime in the region. we hope this new chapter will

compensate relations that took place the last seven years and also the two stability and security in the region as well as development and welfare of all its people. amy: we are joined now by trita parsi, the executive vice president of the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. author of several books, including, "losing an enemy: obama, iran and the triumph of diplomacy." welcome back to democracy now! start off by your response to this thawing of relations between iran and saudi arabia and where it took place, these secret talks in beijing. >> significant development in the region not only because the saudis and iranians have come to terms and normalization hopefully reviews -- reduce tensions and bring down tension and other countries in which the saudis and iranians are fighting each other, but also because of the fact china steps in and

brought the steel over the goal ne. they had not managed to get it over the goal line. this is major development because china has so far not shown any interest or ability to be able to play that type of diplomatic role in the region. now it is sending shockwaves throughout the region. amy: so talk about the role of china in negotiating the secret deal or at least the secret talks, not the secret deal anymore. >> p chinese were able to play this role for a couple of simple reasons. first of all, they have excellent relations with both the iranians and the saudis. unlike thenited stes, the chinese have retained a neutral position on their conflict and worked hard and with great discipline to not give

themselves an angle into the conflicts the various regional powers have with each other. as a result, have been in this position to be able to play this role. it is noteworthy that china had this diplomatic influence. without having -- without being the main arms provider of any of these countries or without providing any security guarantees to any of these countries, which is usually the american model for mediation which we are seeing less and less of. if this -- the chinese are going to play a greater role, then that without a doubt would be very important development. it is not just a normalization deal, the chinese want to hold a summit between iran and the arab states of the persian gulf in beijing. this could be the first steps toward fundamental secured

architecture. amy: president biden was asked about the deal on friday as he was leaving a press briefing. >> what are your thoughts on saudi arabia and iran reestablishing diplomatic relations, sir? pres. biden: relations between israel -- amy: national security council spokesman john kirby also commented on the deal in an interview with chuck todd on "meet the press." >> anything that can bring attention -- bring tension down in the region is welcome. if this can help us and the war in yemen, healthy saudi feel they are not going to be attacked from the who the rebels supported by iran, then we welcome that. the remains to be seen how sustainable this will be. we have seen iran make commitments that they don't follow through on. we hope they do. we hope this does work to de-escalate tensions. >> do you think you'll close this deal between israel and

saudi arabia? do you think this deal with iran makes it harder or easier for the israelis to do that? >> we want to see israel or integrated in the middle east. we what to see the integration continue. one of the reasons why the president went to the middle east last summer was to help move that process along. you so recently oman opened up airspace to flights to and from israel. we got the red sea islands deal done. we have made a lot of progress. we want to see the integration deepen and broaden. whether or not this iran and saudi arabia deal -- i think it remains to be seen but it does not change our focus on trying to see israel were integrated into the region. amy: your response to that, both what john kirby said and president biden? >> i'm not sure if they're present her the question right because answering about the u.s.'s -- on the abrams accords

and israel -- the response -- seems to suggest a dismissive notion. as we saw john kirby say on tv later on, the u.s. welcomes this development because they hope to bring down tensions in the region. i think that is truly an important point. even though there's a lot of nervousness right now in washington about china stepping in, [indiscernible] the reality is if we have a more stable middle east, even if it is mediated by the chinese, ultimately it is good for the united states as well. the u.s. focus has almost singularly been on the abramov court. the abramov court does bring about -- abram according does bring about -- he does nothing to bring about a resolution to

the palestinian-israeli conflict, which is the real problem that needs to be resolved. it signals the united states essentially has moved beyond even having the ambition to be able to help. that would be e thing. the reality is, the abrams accord is helping submit that conflict and making sure it cannot make any progress because all of the pressure taken off israel to end its occupation of the palestinian territories by moving forward with the normalization of other countries. the incentive for the israelis to move in the direction that would resolve the conflict is removed by the abrams accord. direct flights between various countries, etc. it seems an odd payoff. part of the reason why i think more and more countries are no longer looking toward washington help resolve, but potentially now we're going to see a trend in which -- [indiscernible]

amy: can you talk about the iran gcc summit that will be held in china, scheduled for china later this year? the significance of the meeting being held there, what are the key issues expected? also, china's role as, well, major trader with both countries , the biggest consumer of gulf oil, the largest purchaser of iran's oil? >> again, we have to be very clear this is what the chinese are proposing. we don't know yet if the iranians and the gcc states have all accepted. i suspect they will. we don't know how admission is the agenda -- ambitious the agendas going to be. the mere fact it has been suggested, the mere fact it highlights these countries will accept is in and of itself very significant. the persian gulf is one of the few areas in the world that does

not have any security -- to have china step in and move toward building something along those lines, is going to be a very significant development. but it does not bring about arms sales, does not bring about security but helping the region build its own security architecture and be its own guarantors, that would be very different approach from what we have seen so far. still a vacuum that can bring about far greater stability in the country and from the chinese perspective, a key reason why this is important to them is because they are in dire need of the energy of the persian gulf. they need stability in the persian gulf. it is also important for them that as u.s.-china tensions increase, increasingly moved [indiscernible] china plane this type of diplomatic role elsewhere in the world and showing itself to be

constructive perhaps dispensable, that will make it all the more difficult for the united states -- amy: we're talking to trita parsi, executive vice president of the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. talk about how this deal has been received in south asia, in the middle east. >> throughout the middle east, it has been welcome from countries such as lebanon to iraq. we have seen statements by the opposition leader who blames netanyahu, because it very dangerous development -- calls it a very dangerous development. this normalization between iran and saudi arabia will now mean the saudis will be far less interested or drive harder

bargain for it to normalize relations with israel and join the abrams accord. e issue is this does not need to be an either/or. saudi arabia can have normal relations with iran and later on move toward normalizing relations with israel. what is the main obstacle there i think ultimately is that unless the israelis move toward a real peace and a two state solution, it will always be a difficult decision and decision for the saudis to move toward only station. polls have shown even though the saudi population are open having trade with israel, they're not open to normalization unless there is a two state solution. and this is not a minor issue for the saudi population. this is an issue that carries a tremendous amount of emotional potential. even though i think the saudi --

eager to normalize and has been indicating that, this is an issue that he has to be careful about because having the saudi population be completely against it will be a problem with it if he goes forward without any movement on the israeli side. amy: what is this mean for yemen? >> that is where i think the hopes are high, that as a result of saudi arabia and iran normalizing come agree to not interfere in each other's internal affairs -- which from the saudi perspective means the iranians stop supporting the houthi and it will bring pressure onto the houthis, there will be a higher likelihood now that the truce that is in place has expired but is still abided by largely by both sides, will now be able to be extended moving toward a more permanent settlement. whether the iranians have that influence [indiscernible] largely exaggerated.

the -- the people have spoken to are hopeful about this because even though the conflict in yemen has its internal roots, it has been skewed significantly by the complication and rivalry between iran and saudi arabia. amy: finally, what do you think this means, china negotiating this deal between iran and saudi arabia? could china play similar role between russia and ukraine? >> it is interesting you mention that because that chinese first a couple of weeks ago launched its idea of then mediating between russia and ukraine and it was not perceived particularly well in the west. even before it came out, the proposal was essentially poopo oed. when it came out, it did not appear to contain -- the reality is i think on the road, the chinese could play that role because they do have leverage over russia, which is

something the united states does not in the same way. we're talking about a conflict in which the u.s. is clearly on one side. the chinese, from the u.s. perspective, are on the russian side because they are not taking the ukrainian side. more than anything else, i think what is important to realize, we are now -- [indiscernible] china and india down the road are going to play a more important role when it comes to diplomacy. our influence from the american side should be to welcome the positives that come with that other than seeing that as a negative and dangerous development. [indiscernible] constantly taking sides and as a result become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. if the new normal is other

countries look toward china for peacemaking and america for warmaking, that would be -- it doesn't have to be that way. amy: trita parsi, thank you for being with us executive vice , president of the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. author of a number of books, including, "losing an enemy: obama, iran and the triumph of diplomacy." next up, we go to north pole, alaska, as president biden looks to approve a massive oil and gas development known as the willow project in northern alaska. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: siqiñiq maupin this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. multiple news organizations are reporting the biden administration is preparing to

formally approve a massive oil and gas development in northern alaska known as the willow project. approval of the $8 billion conocophillips development is expected to be announced today greenlighting the drilling of some 600 million barrels of crude oil. climate activists and many indigenous groups had urged biden to reject the project warning it will create a carbon bomb. in advance of approving the willow project, the biden administration also announced on sunday steps to reduce oil drilling in other parts of the arctic. this includes barring future oil and gas leasing for 3 million acres of federal waters in the arctic ocean and limiting drilling in a further 13 million acres in the national petroleum reserve in alaska's north slope. kristen monsell of the center for biological diversity criticized the biden plan saying -- "protecting one area of the arctic so you can destroy another doesn't make sense, and it won't help the people and wildlife who will be upended by the willow project."

we go now to north pole, alaska, where we are joined by siqiñiq maupin, executive director of sovereign inupiat for a living arctic. it is great to have you back. thank you for joining us. can you talk about what you understand is being announced today? >> recently onriday afternoon, the bloomberg report came up saying there was speculation the biden administration will approve a plan and we are hearing he will make a decision monday at about 9:00 a.m. but we are not for sure. amy: while campaigning in 2020, then presidential candidate joe biden said "no more drilling on federal lands, period." this is candidate biden responding to a question about his position on drilling in the arctic. >> i think i'm the only one

running who has been in the arctic circle. remember the great oil spill that occurred? i went up in hecopter on the north slope and saw what was going on and saw what was happening as the glaciers began to melt and how the caribou -- there's a lot going on up there. it is a real gigantic problem. by the way, no more drilling on federal lands, period. period, period, period. the arctic circle is a disaster to do that. amy: that was candidate biden. again, the little part we missed at the beginning of what the candidate said was "i am completely, totally opposed to drilling in the arctic." siqiñiq maupin, describe this project. what is the willow project and what you understand president biden is announcing today? >> this is the biggest oil and

gas leasing project on public lands right now. it is a massive project that would be happening in the north slope. this would completely encircle the community in oil and gas. this is just the start of the project because this could greenlight for further exploration, further development. this project would admit so much carbon, it would actually double the amount that biden has promised he would reduce. [indiscernible] amy: can you talk about why you have invested so much time and energy into protesting this? and the two parts of the plan being announced today? >> yes, i want to say personally

i've been trying to fight this project for about four years. on a more personal level, my mother -- my family is from there. i have a deep connection and love for the community. in 2018, i was invited to go to an air quality monitoring system planning session. currently, conocophillips owns the only monitoring system in the own most of the research quoted for this project to go forward. we went over the top 10 pollutants put out by conocophillips. but the possible impact is from being exposed to this pollutants , respiratory illness and other things, even changing the sex in the womb of a child from male

to female. a lot of us realize we have seen these occurrences in our family, increase in cancer respiratory illnesses. in 2012, there was a blowout and that caused one child to be medevac from the village and another to have permanent health problems with respiratory system most of many -- recently there was a ghastly and they did not evacuate. many people -- children were complaining of headache and nausea and not feeling well. currently there is no plan put into place to help evacuate or keep the community safe. as i learn more about this project and its impacts not just to the community and the public health but the climate impact were significant.

the arctic is running at four times -- is warming at a rate four times more than the rest of the world. caribou are showing signs of starvation. we are seeing fish pop-up with bold. this project is going to accelerate these issues and create food insecurity and many, many issues for the entire arctic this self. -- itself a stock globally, it will affect people with climate change. this project we are concerned about for those reasons but we also want to transition away om well and gas. we would not see any of the benefits economically for 10 years. this would be a catastrophe for biden who has promised he would

transition us into clean energy. what is also concerning, systematically we have seen small, rural places like this time and again have it in an economic hostage situation where they are told the only way they can gebasic necessities like running water, plumbing and such is to sacrifice their health, their land, their food security. so amore consequences of this project. america former u.s. vice president al gore, a longtime environmentalist, told the guardian -- "the proposed expansion of oil and gas drilling in alaska is recklessly irresponsible. the pollution it would generate will not only put alaska native and other local communities at risk, it is incompatible with the ambition we need to achieve a net-zero future. we don't need to prop up the fossil fuel industry with new, multiyear projects that are a recipe for climate chaos. instead, we must end the expansion of oil, gas, and coal

and embrace the abundant climate solutions at our fingertips." now, according to "the new york times" -- "willow would be the largest new oil development in the united states, expected to pump out 600 million barrels of crude over 30 years. burning all that oil could release nearly 280 million metric tons of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. on an annual basis, that would translate into 9.2 million metric tons of carbon pollution, equal to adding nearly two million cars to the roads each year. the united states, the second biggest polluter on the planet after china, emits about 5.6 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide annually." yes, and by mental activists across the political spectrum are calling this a carbon bomb. talk about conocophillips and who pushed this project forward.

>> conocophillips has a huge hand and everything that happens in alaska, politically, locally, public education, and recently the mayor found a letter with other council members and the president -- stating this project would be detrimental to the people there but it would also be a huge climate mistake. as we have seen, we can't have a project go forward like this and meet the global goals to reduce carbon emissions. we are looking at this project in president biden and we understand the political ties that he has with murkowski, who is someone who crosses party

lines, that is a republican, that really was preing to go forwar we believe he is not making logil choices or choices best for his constituents, but making a choice based off pressure from political leaders, our congressmen that are not representing alaa well. as he stated, there so many things happening in the arctic that have been reckless and this project would only further exacerbate those issues. climate change, erosional. there's no federal funding for this. for president biden to greenlight this project, he would be going back on 70 of his campaign promises but also putting -- so many of his campaign promises but also putting our world at risk of having less of a chance to mitigate the challenges we are facing because of climate change. amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. , thank you for being with us, executive -- siqiñiq maupin, executive director of sovereign inupiat for a living arctic.

next up, senators grill the ceo of norfolk southern over the company's toxic train derailment in east palestine, ohio. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. five weeks after the norfolk southern train disaster in the

small town of east palestine, ohio, the company's ceo alan shaw was grilled on capitol hill thursday about the february 3 derailment and so-called controlled burn that blanketed the town with a toxic brew of at least six hazardous chemicals and gases, including vinyl chloride, which when heated becomes phosgene, the world war i chemical weapon. shaw testified before the senate's environment and public works committee just days after the third derailment of a norfolk southern train in the u.s. since that derailment in east palestine. this is part of his exchange with democratic senator ed markey. >> am i correct that last year norfolk southern made $3.3 billion in profits? >> yes, sir. last year we invested over $1 billion in safety and last year our accident rate -- the number

of accidents was the lowest it had been in the last 10 years. our safety stats continue to improve. i am committed to making norfolk southern's safety the best. close you're not having a good month. it seems like every week you're having an accident. amy: during his testimony, shaw also faced questions from vermont senator bernie sanders about covering the health costs of those impacted by the toxic derailment. >> you talked about covering the needs of the people of east palestine. does that include paying for the health care needs? all of their health care needs? >> senator, we're going to do what is right for the citizens. >> what is right is to cover their health care needs. we do that? >> everything is on the table, sir.

amy: the ohio department of health reports east palestine residents continue to experience headaches, as well as coughing, tigue, irration, and burning of the skin after the train derailment. many remain unsatisfied with the environmental protection agency response and much of the testing, which was carried out by contractors for norfolk southern, featured in a video it posted online. >> sarah burnett is a toxicologist with cteh. she is one of dozens of scientists helping answer those questions about air quality. >> i say to them that we have detected no vinyl chloride rather constituents related to this incident in the air and that all oour air moniting and sampling data collectively do not indicate any short or long-term risks to them,heir children, or theiramilie amy: but a recent propublica expose published with the guardian cited independent

experts who said the tests were inadequate and did not prove residents' homes were truly safe. for more, we are joined by two guests. in louisville, kentucky, monica unseld is a biologist and environmental and social justice advocate who has studied the health impact of endocrine-disrupting chemicals used in plastics like those released in east palestine. she is the founder and executive director of until justice data partners and co-lead for the coming clean science team, a environmental health and justice advocates focused on the chemical and energy industries. and in albany, new york, judith enck is a former epa regional administrator and president of beyond plastics whose recent "new york times" op-ed is headlined "why has the epa allowed the horrific situation in ohio to continue?" she also wrote a "boston globe" op-ed headlined "the east palestine disaster was a direct result of the country's reliance on fossil fuels and plastic."

welcome you both to democracy now! judith enck talk about this. you are the epa regional director in this area. what should the government be doing and what did norfolk southern do wrong? >> the government needs to do so much more starting with why are we producing so much vinyl chloride? it is used for one purpose and that is to manufacture pvc plastic. part of that is risk associated where the manufacturing takes place, mostly in black and brown community's in louisiana and texas. you put the vinyl chloride on thtrain tracks, we know there are unfortunately any derailments -- many jerome's per year. this accident happened and i question whether it was smart to

drain the known carcinogen into local ditches and set it on fire without evacuating -- the evacuation zone was only one mile by two miles. and just days later, lifting the evacuation order, telling people it was safe for them to return with very limited testing. dioxin testing did not happen until a month later after pressure from the public and new cycles calling out the epa. the epa asked the polluter here, the rail company, to do the testing and the dioxin testing i think is far too limited. we need service testing inside people's homes. most people spend most of their times indoors. contaminants will settle on people's kitchen counters, rugs

where kids crawl, furniture. none of those service areas have ever been tested. the reason i think we are sing this problem is because the epa is deferring much too much to the state of ohio. starting today, i think they need to turn the page and put public health protection front and center. amy: it is unbelievable that it wasn't the government that did the so-called controlled burn, wasn't involved with it. it was the company and the company paid the testers as they assured everyone the whole area is safe? >> it is not unusual for the epa to have contractors do that testing. as superfund sites, for instance. but this is a unique situation where people need to have trust in government. the epa should have been doing this themselves. amy: wasn't norfolk southern

paying for the testers? >> yes. it was their contractors and sometimes epa went with them to observe. i think that was a mistake. the epa should have scientists, they have toxicologist and they should be in the driver seat here not norfolk southern. amy: this issue, let me bring in monica unseld, of vinyl chloride and the chemicals released -- we have to be very clear, there were three people, one a training on this train, just three norfolk southern employees and the train was more than two miles long. and that is not one of the longest trains of norfolk southern. what chemicals were released? >> good morning. i'm not sure we know. we know of dioxin. we know a final ride. we know of a few others. my concern is, do we know if the mixtures? what is happening with these chemicals react with other

chemicals, especially when you're doing a controlled burn, the chemicals are encountering other chemicals within the soil, the air, and the water. i think this leads to a bigger issue of why the epa and the federal government are not screening these chemicals before they go to market. and why the epa and the federal government for decades have allowed industry to say, trust us, trust the science, when they really mean their science. or they say they are going to do the right thing. i think we have decades of research to know and evidence to know they are not going to do the right thing. under a law like the toxic substances control act, the epa does have more authority but they are not taking it. we can't test for these chemicals with proprietary information. we may not know everything the trains are carrying across the continent. my concern is we may not know what happens here for years.

amy: what does vinyl chloride do and what happens when it burns? >> it is used mainly in plastics, particularly pvc and plastics used in building materials. when it burns, it can create a toxic gas that can be very dangerous for people. i know we're looking at the acute effects of coughing and burning, that i don't think we know t long-term effects. those will be at doses so low, we don't know the health effects . we may not know the health impacts of burning vinyl chloride. amy: and the dioxins? explain what endocrine disruptors are. >> there chemicals that at low doses, which are typically lower than what our threshold at the red litter agencies are, at low doses they are either mimicking or acting as an obstacle are blocking our natural hormone

systems. they can act as an estrogen -- most are estrogenic. some make it very difficult to lose weight. they have been linked to cancer, behavioral issues in children, learning differences, diabetes, rises in infertility rates. they really are a public health crisis that we sort of jurassic parked our way in. we are not screening the chemicals but we are also creating new chemicals that the planet has never seen before. we do not have the testing sensitive enough to determine whether they are in the water, air, or soil and what they're doing in our bodies, particularly when they're mixing together. amy: how long today last? >> some are persistent. they won't dissolve in water. some can go for months but some can stay for years. particularly in fatty tissues. we know with their indigenous tribes, their diets and cultural

traditions, they're getting a lot of these pollutants like dioxin, would you mainly get exposed to in food, in the fatty tissues of traditional foods. amy: i want to go back to the former epa regional administration or now president of beyond plastics judith enck. talk about what plastics have to do with all of this and what has to happen at this point. >> the accident that took place in ohio because five of the train cars causing the most damage contained vinyl chloride, a human carcinogen that was declared a human carcinogen back in 1974. and we have to ask ourselves, is plastic really worth the risks? businesses tell me all the time that it is cheap, but it is not cheap because what about the human suffering and economic

damage -- we are just in the very early stages of dealing with this toxic train to rome and in ohio. what about the human health impact, economic cost of people living in communities where plastic is manufactured? most plastic does not get recycled. it is mostly 5% to 6% recycling rate. a lot of it ends up in the ocean. scientists tell us within the next decade, for every three tons of fish in the ocean, there will be one pound of -- for every three pounds of fish in the ocean, there will be one count of plastic. i argue plastic is not cheap at all and yet because of the fossil fuel industry, because of the chemical industry, not because of what we want as consumers, plastic is forecast to double in the next 20 years. that would be an enormous problem from a climate change

perspective, environmental justice perspective, and our own health. there are some states and local government that are taking action to reduce the demand. in new york state, for instance, there is an important bill being debated in bill that would cut packaging in half over 10 years and would also ban really toxic chemicals like vinyl chloride. the science on plastic is really solid. we know people have no choice when they enter most anarchist supermarkets. they want alternatives to plastic. what is missing is the political will to break free from the grip of the chemical industry, the plastic industry, and the fossil fuel industry that are all united in pushing more plastic onto the marketplace. unless these change, i am afraid we are going to see more east palestines in our future, more

climate change, more adverse health impacts. in this is all because the congress, state lawmakers some states, and the biden administration just refuse to stand up to the plastics industry. amy: you are calling for, started a public petition, or organization beyond plastics, for the epa to ban the use of vinyl chloride. what is a replacement for that? talk more about the effects of vinyl chloride. >> vinyl chloride has immense health impacts even when it is not in train cars and being purposefully set on fire. it is a human carcinogen. it is used for drinking water pipes, for instance. it is used for packaging where you could use refillable, reasonable packaging. her packaging made from recycled

materials like metal, glass, cardboard, paper. it is used for toys. the iconic little yellow rubber ducky that floats around in children's bathtubs, that is made from polyvinyl chloride. let's just ditch that ducky and have toys that do not pose risks to kids. there is an abundance of alternatives to polyvinyl chloride plastic and many plastics. it is just a matter of political will. just as we have fuel efficiency standards for cars and appliances, it is time to have environmental standards for packaging, which is a giant part of the plastic picture. amy: judith enck, thank you for being with us, former epa regional administrator and president of beyond plastics, and monica unseld, founder, and executive director of until justice data partners.

that does it for our show. to see all of our coverage of east palestine, go to democracynow.org. [captioning made possible by democracy now!] tñ■aañl

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