[captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> i am morning the life of this young man, my son. into illness should not be your tick to death. am seven sheff's deputies and threhospital workers in virginia have been iicted on

murder charges for piling on top of a shackled black man named ivo otieno and pinning him to the group for 11 minutes inside a mental health hospital in virginia. we will speak with the family attorney ben crump. then we continue to look back at the u.s. invasion of iraq 20 years later. pres. bush: major combat operations in iraq have ended. nine states and our allies have prevailed. amy: amy: those were the words of george w. bush in may 2003 two month afr the u.s. invasi. 20 years later, iraq remains a shattered nation. we will speak to ghaith abdul-ahad. 20 years ago, he was an architect living in baghdad. after the invasion, he began working as a journalist, becoming one of the most noted reporters in the middle east. he will join us today to talk about his new book "a stranger in your own city: travels in the middle east's long war."

all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democrynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the united nations warns in a new report that 2 billion people, or a quarter of humanity, lack access to safe drinking water and nearly half half the global population has no access to basic sanitation. secretary-general antonio guterres announced the findings wednesday as the u.n. water conference opened three days of meetings, the first such event in nearly half a century. >> water is a human right and the common denominator to shape a better future. but water is in deep trouble. we are draining community's lifeblood with overconsumption and and sustainable use and evaporating heat through global heating.

amy: in santiago, chile, protesters marked world water day wednesday with a march demanding access to safe drinking water and sanitation. chile is in the grips of a 13-year mega-drought, with more than half the nation's population suffering from severe water scarcity. this is journalist and social activist lucía sepúlveda. >> we are here representing any because in their territories, they have no water. they have a miserable quality of life. because the what is being taken away by latin companies. because it is being used -- amy: here in the united states, more than 2 million people lack running water and basic indoor plumbing, with renters and people of color most likely to be affected. in california, at least five people were killed and over 100,000 homes and businesses left without electricity after fierce winter storms brought heavy rain and wind gusts of up to 80 miles an hour.

hearts have -- parts of california's central san joaquin valley faces catastrophic flooding, with estimates that up to 100,000 acres of farm land are under water. in southern california, the national weather service says two rare tornadoes touched down this week, injuring two people and damaging dozens of structures in los angeles county. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy returned to the front line near the devastated city of bakhmut wednesday, promising to respond to every blow following string of russian attacks on civilian sites across ukraine that killed at least eight people and injured dozens on wednesday. in moscow, russian officials have warned the united kingdom not to send ammunition to ukraine containing depleted uranium. the metal is a byproduct of the enrichment process used to make nuclear warheads and fuel for power plants. it's both toxic and radioactive, and has been linked to congenital birth defects, cancer and kidney damage. this is russia's foreign minister speaking wednesday.

>> while there is no convention 2 billion depleted uranium shells, the united nations general assembly readily considers resolutions calling a nation not to produce or use depleted uranium. every time the united kingdom, and france vote it down. amy: since the 1990's, the u.s. has fired munitions containing hundreds of tons of depleted uranium in iraq, serbia, kosovo, and syria, as well as a former u.s. naval training range in vieques, puerto rico. on capitol hill, peace activists with the group codepink repeatedly interrupted u.s. secretary of state anthony -- antony blinken wednesday as he testified to the senate foreign relations committee. this is codepink founder medea benjamin. >> the american people don't want to keep a proxy war with russia that could lead to world war iii or a nuclear holocaust.

you're supposed to be a diplomat . try negotiating. if you don't like the chinese proposal, where is your peace proposal? amy: police moved in to arrest codepink members as they delivered their messages to blinken and senators. in russia, security forces have raided the homes of former -- i people affiliated with the memorial human rights center, confiscating items and equipment and bringing some of the group's members in for questioning. memorial won the nobel peace prize in 2022 for its work documenting human rights violations and crimes committed by the former soviet union. it was outlawed by the russian government ahead of russia's invasion of ukraine. meanwhile, the international criminal court has expressed concern over comments by former russian president dmitry medvedev, who said monday -- "it's quite possible to imagine a hypersonic missile being fired from the north sea from a russian ship at the hague

courthouse." medvedev added that any attempt by the icc to arrest president vladimir putin on war crimes charges would amount to a declaration of war against russia. russia, the united states, and ukraine have not ratified the rome statute treaty that established the international criminal court. in 2002, then-president george w. bush signed a bipartisan bill known as the american service-members' protection act, authorizing the president to order military action to bring about the release of any u.s. personnel being detained at the request of the international criminal court. the united nations is calling for an international specialized support force to deploy to haiti to help stem a worsening gang crisis, which has already killed over 530 people this year. gang violence steadily rose amid thing -- mounting political and economic instability following the 2021 assassination of president jovenel moise. gangs now control over half of haiti, while some 160,000 have

been displaced, many now living on makeshift homes. >> the gangs invaded us. i lost my husband because of the gang more. i am alone with my children. i was living on the street. after many searches, i found this place. now i cannot go back home. i lost everything. amy: half of haiti's population does not have enough food. the u.n. warns children are especially at risk of violence and face kidnappings, forced recruitment, and sexual violence. a 6.5-magnitude earthquake killed at least 19 people and injud hundredsore in afghanistan and pakistan. the earthquake struck tuesday evening in the mountainous north-ea of afghantan, near its border with pakistan, damaged buildings, and triggered landslides. back in the united states, a judge in wyoming has put a hold on the state's passed abortion ban, just days after it was enacted, asserting the

constitutional right of wyoming residents to make individual health care decisions. meanwhile, in idaho, one hospital announced it would stop delivering babies as too many doctors have left the state over its abortion ban, which criminalizes abortion providers. expectant residents of sandpoint in north-west idaho will now have to drive 46 miles for labor and delivery care. the u.s. central bank has raised interest rates by another quarter of a percent. it's the eighth time in a row the federal reserve has raised the cost of borrowing, as it -- even though it could cost 2 million people their jobs. inflation. massachusetts democratic senator elizabeth warren blasted the move, tweeting -- "i've warned for months that the fed's current path risks throwing millions of americans out of work. we have many tools to fight inflation without pushing the economy off a cliff," senator warren said. the international monetary fund approved a $3 billion loan for sri lanka this week amid its worst economic crisis since

gaining independence. inflation has soared to above 50% as people struggle to pay for food. it's the 17th imf bailout sri lanka has received and the third since the end of its civil war in 2009. in lebanon, protesters rallied in beirut wednesday to decry worsening economic conditions. many of the protesters were former security force members, whose state pensions have been rapidly losing value amid a dire economic crisis. the lebanese pound lost more than 98% of its value against the u.s. dollar since 2019. in argentina, flation has topped 100% for the first time since its finaial crisis of the early 1990's. argentina has struggled to turn around its economy amid government infighting and ministerial turnover. last year, massive protests called out austerity measures resulting from imf bailouts and the government's mismanagement of its debt. fed up argentines say they want change in their leadership.

>> let all the politicians go. i am tired. tired of all of this, of the politicians who fight while the people die of hunger. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, we speak to civil rights attorney ben crump, who is representing the family of ivo otieno, as seven sheriff's deputies and three hospital workers in virginia have been indicted on murder charges for killing him by piling on top of him, suffocating him at a mental health hospital in virginia. our music break is a song he recorded called "can't wait." ♪♪ [music break]

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amgoodman, joined by my

co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: a warning to our audience, this story contains images and descriptions of police violence. we begin today's show looking at the death of ivo otieno, a 28-year-old black man who was killed on march 6 inside a hospital in virginia where he had been taken to receive mental health treatment. shocking video released this week shows sen sheriff's depues and three hospital workers olently pinned irvo otno to the hospit floor and piled on himor more than 11 minutes. rlier this week, a virginia and jury iicted e 10 men involved on second degree murder charges. otieno's death occurred at central state hospital, a psychiatric facility in dinwiddie county, virginia. new deo releed wednesday reves at lea one officer had

also repeatedly punched otieno earlr that dayhen a group of them rushed into his jail cell . when the officers carried otieno out of the cell, he was no longer moving. they put his limp body inta van to transport himo the hospital wheree died aft being pied to the ground by the seven sheriff'deputies and three hospal workers. ir otieno was an aspiring musician who suffered from mental heah challenges. he had been taken fr his home and locked up thredays befe he w killed afr a neighb caed police report he h walked on eir proper and had takesome lights and banged o thr front door. this is irvo otieno's mother who had moved with her family from kenya in the 1990's. >> what i saw today was

heartbreaking america. it was disturbing. it was traumatic. my son was tortured, to put it right. i saw the torture. there is no way that the sheriff's deputies were on him, seven people, seven officers, on one man. and all this happened when my son went to hospital on the third. and that evening, he was taken to jail. those three days in the county jail were a horror. i have seen it on video.

i am here to mourn. i am mourning the life of this young man, my son. mental illness should not be your ticket to death. there was a chance to rescue him. there was a chance to stop what was going on. i don't understand how all the systems failed him. i don't understand why one single system would not say "we stop here." my son was treated like a dog -- worse than a dog. i saw it with my own eyes on the video. amy: that was caroline ooko, the mother of irvo otieno, who was killed by seven sheriff's deputies and three hospital workers inside a mental health facility in virginia on march 6. we are joined now by civil

rights attorney ben crump, who is representing irvo otieno's family. welcome back to democracy now! this horrific story continues to unfold because more and more video has been released. tell us what happened on march 6, especially the latest video that is hours before what we had seen and what the family is calling for right now. how did this happen to irvo? >> thank you for having me, amy. there is more video to be released that is equally disturbing that has not been released to the public that the family and our legal team have been able to review. on march 6,ivo otieno was having a mental health crisis. regrettably, like so many other

black people in america who have mental health issues, they are treated like medical issues. they are treated like criminal issues. and many times when they are confronted by the police, these mental health issues leads to them then sentenced to death, like we saw in this disturbing video of ivo. he was in a mental hospital, for god sake. isn't it foreseeable that people who have mental health issues come in a crisis and they are in the hospital, that they're going to have situations where they have crisis? so they should be able to deal with them without the person being killed. when you look at the video, he was handcuffed at his wrists, he

had leg irons on his ankles, so he ped no threat to anyon not himself, not to the officers, or the hospital staff. you look a video, his bod seemed leless when they dragged him to thear and certainly when thedragged him into the room where we witness him being face down and seven sheriff's deputies and three security guards from the medical facility all piled on toof him. i'll put the brunt otheir weight on him, put their knees on his bac on his neck. not for a few minutes, bufor almost 12 minutes. as a prosecutor said, amy, when she charged them with

second-degree mder, they literay smothehim to death. and that is tragic. he committed no crime. he was there because -- amy: let me play the commonwealth's attorney speaking during one of the first hearings last week for the seven empties charged in the death of irvo otieno. >> he was held down on the ground, pinned on the ground for 12 minutes by all seven of our defendants charged here, including this one. so much so, they smothered him. they smothered him to the death. it is the defendant's position the victim in this cast was agitated and combative. there is video footage of exactly what happened and he was not agitated and combative.

amy: this is key. the dinwiddie commonwealth attorney said he was not combative. >> in the video, the one good thing about video, thank god for the advent of technology, because for decades, black people would say the police are brutalizing us and engaging in excessive force. people would always believe the police -- they would take the police narrative. now with video, you can see for yourself what happened. there is no video that we have seen that shows irvo and combative or posing a threat to anybody. they're saying, take our word for it. if he did something at some point doing -- during his cris, we clearly see on the video that has been released to

the public that never was irvo posing a threat. when you think about it, i got 70 calls from all across america come across the world saying, why? this is so when necessary. he is handcuffed and shackled. they could have left them in the room and wait for him to get proper medical attention. why do you have to put them based on? why do you have to smother him to death? it is so unnecessary. many of these deaths -- and three years after george floyd, why would police or law enforcement officials be putting their knees anywhere on a restrained person who was face down? nermeen: absolutely, ben crump if you could explain what is especially shocking and

horrifying is that it takes place in a hospital, a mental hospital where presumably the medical staff is accompanied to deal -- accustomed to dealing with people. he is not even combative. but even if you were, what would justify in a facility like this, police with medical staff, actively murdering one of their patients? >> there is nothing that would justify it. in fact, what isqually troubling is you have so many people standing arounand nobody intervenes. we remember in tyre nichols tragic killing in memphis, at was one of the issues that none of tse police officers intervened on they watched young men being beaten to death, being tortured. you see similar issues here in richmond virginia, where nobody

caevade -- not the medical staff, not the security come anybody ere. they sply watched. can you imagine setting or stopwatch for 12 minutes and just think about how much time goes into 12 minutes, how many seconds and the fact irvo can't breathe? they said he was still moving when they had him on the ground. you would be moving, too, if you were faced down restrained and you have 10 people on top of you for 12 minutes. you are struggling. you are trying to get air. that is what was denied to irvo. his opportunity to breathe. that is why it is very disturbing that the medical personnel who are trained on how to preserve life could not recognize that irvo needed somebody to intervene to give

him the benefit of the doubt, the benefit of their professionalism, and mostly, the benefit of humanity. nermeen: could you talk about this specific hospital where he was held and where this incident occurred? >> asthma cocounsel -- as my cocounsel and i have been researching with our legal team, this certainly is not the first incident where patients who have been, i guess, in a mental health crises have been abused in the sense that other black people have alleged that police used excessive force against them. thank, with all kinds of things trying to justify the cause of death -- they came up with all kinds of things trying to justify the cause of death, but

they were killed because of an overdose of excessive force. we have to use this as an opportunity to deal with the issues that into health in america. we need legislation, policies to try to prevent any more irvos. president biden couple of days ago had the television cast of ted lasso, an award-winning show, at the white house to talk about the importance of mental health. it is my fervent hope they would have engaged with black people who have mental health issues to say we need to treat those important as well and not as criminal issues. because we saw in houston, texas, pam turner, a black woman had a mental health crisis and

the police ended up shooting her in the face, chest, and in the stomach while she is laying on the ground on her back. that video is horrific. we see kirsch on freeman in memphis, tennessee, who is beat to death while he is naked in the jail having a mental health crisis. what happened to irvo is not an isolated incident in america. when you are black in america and you have a mental health crisis, too often the determent of factor of whether you live and die is the color of your skin and the status of your mental health. and that should not be the case. amy: i want to go back to irvo's mother caroline ooko. >> this young man you see here had a big heart. irvo was the guy that his classmates drew to with a needed someone to talk to.

he was a listener. he would take time to listen to them. and then he would take time to process and in lean back in. my son was a leader. he was not a follower. he also brought a different perspective to the table. if there was a discussion, he was not afraid to go the other way when everybody else is following. this is my baby. he cared for people. he cared that people were treated right. amy: it is so horrifying to me all too often young black men after their deaths with their mothers or sisters or partners describing who they were. ben crump, as we wrap up, the pile on was more than 11 minutes . in the case of derek chauvin murdering george floyd, it was 9.5 minutes.

at this point, what are you demanding? and also, can you talk about the fact the defense attorneys have called for holding io's body, could you weeks, something the judge ruled against yesterday? >> it is god awful this family is having to grieve the death of an unnecessary and unjustifiable and unconstitutional killing of their loved one, but it is insult on top of injury to say they are going to be prevented from possibly -- for possibly weeks at having funeral services for irvo because the defense attorneys are arguing they have a right to do an autopsy or some independent autopsy from their choosing.

well, it is disturbing. they have video. i mean, there's no question what killed him. the medical examiner has done the autopsy. they would have the benefit of having all of the slides and reports from that autopsy. but to try to hold up his funeral is disturbing, especially -- can you imagine your loved one being killed by the people were supposed to protect and serve them but then they try to say, you can't have the funeral for another month? we cannot allow that to happen. i pray the judge will not allow that to happen because what we need is, just like the police chief said in memphis, tennessee, we see a tragedy like this and justice like this, a crime committed like this on video, the community needs to see us moving swiftly. we need to move swiftly toward justice because justice delayed

is justice denied. amy: ben crump, thank you for being with us. i believe the judge did rule against the defense request to hold the body of irvo saying a corpse is not a t-shirt or something else that can be easily stored. ben crump, civil rights attorney representing the family of irvo otieno. coming up, we speak to the iraqi journalist ghaith abdul-ahad, author of the new book "a stranger in your own city: travels in the middle east's long war." stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "the sound of disquiet" by andrea piccioni and khyam allami. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as we continue to mark the 20th anniversary of the u.s. invasion of iraq, we're joined by ghaith abdul-ahad, an award-winning iraqi journalist and author. he was born in baghdad in 1975 and was working as an architect when the u.s. invaded in 2003.

he started his journalism career at the guardian soon after the invasion. he was a translator for guardian reporters. he has since received the martha gellhorn prize for journalism, the british press awards' foreign reporter of the year, and the orwell prize. his book is just out on this 20th anniversary, "a stranger in your own city: travels in the middle east's long war." he is joining us from istanbul, turkey, today. this book is magnificent. it is a deep dive into understanding the effects of an invasion and occupation and beyond that, the entire region. we congratulate you for this work. why don't we start off with the title, "a stranger in your own city." describe baghdad, a place you

had hardly left by the time you become an architect, and then what happened on march 20, the bombing of your country. >> thank you for having me back. it is exactly like that. i grew up in baghdad and really left the city for 28 years -- rarely left the city for 28 years. i used to walk everywhere. i knew the geography really well. it is a flat, open city. no more occasions, no boundaries within the city itself. within two years of the occupation, i was awake early in the morning. i am trying to find friends to escort me to different parts of the city and that is when i realized i had become a stranger because i cannot travel from the hotel where i was staying to

where my school was or where my friends were without having someone to escort me, and often to people escorting me because you never know who will be manning the checkpoints on the road. that is the effect of the war. nermeen: one of the things that is very instructive and interesting in your book is the account you give of your years in baghdad come as you said, almost 30 without barely leaving. all of the events that led up to what the society in the context was in which the was invasion took place. if you could begin with that. you were five years old when the iraq-iran war began and followed closely by the iraqi invasion of kuwait and in the sanctions.

if you could walk us through that period and what baghdad was like in those years? >> of course iraqis and myself of certain generation, the relationship to war did not start in 2003. i was five when i first witnessed the bombing of my city. iraq was bombing and iranians were bombing. although the major cities were spared, we all lived the impact. uncles, cousins, neighbors all being taken to the front. every spring see the streets in baghdad covered in this black cloth announcing the death of soldiers at the front. so that was part of the dynamic stop we all know during these eight years, saddam hussein was supported by the u.s.

he was given weapons, he was given intelligence because he was serving a purpose. the net militarization of society, that war led to his disastrous foolish criminal decision to invade kuwait which led to the 1991 war. i have to say the bombing of 1991 really destroyed the infrastructure of the country. our relationship if america did not start in 2003. we had already been bombed in 1991. all of the wars i've witnessed, civilian, journalist, i've never seen anything devastating our society like the sanctions. it crushed our society. it turned a proud, educated nation into a nation of hustlers, basically. everyone trying to get a little bit of money. it enshrined the corruption we see now.

it becomes a way of survival. amy: i wanted to go to that issue of sanctions. the way the president of the united states perceived them and absolutely devastating effect in iraq. on election day in 2000, i had a chance to speak with president bill clinton who called into our radio station to get out the vote. i had a chance to question him about the effect of sanctions in iraq. figure shoved a 5000 children a month die in a rack because of the sanctions. >> that's not true. amy: the past two have called the u.s. policy, u.s.-u.n.

policy genocidal. what is your response? pres. clinton: they are wrong. amy: there was a famous comment of battle in albright when questioned by judy woodruff of " 60 minutes about 500 children dying as a result of the sanctions, did she think that price was worth it and she said yes. your response, and for people to understand the effects of these sanctions alone? >> i mean, i cannot emphasize the impacts of the sanctions. i think everything that is happened in iraq in the last 30 years to the life of this dictator, his adventures, the occupation of followed, it was the sanctions. that is the moment when he destroyed society. during the sanctions, so dam -- they did not suffer. he went on building his palaces,

people close to him. they benefit even more because of the sanctions. there was a very important black market. they controlled the black market. they became wealthy. the people close to the power, they benefit from the sanctions because they become the only gate through which any source of income can be generated. it is us and the iraqis, you go to hospitals and there are no medicines, go to schools and there are no pencils or books. we were scavenging through the drawers of schools looking very used papers to use them on the back because we don't have access. saddam hussein's children did not go scavenging for pencils. it is us who lived to these sanctions, those who are dependent on the meager monthly ration given by the state. the delusion -- i don't know if

it is delusional or deliberate, destruction of society. than 2003, after all these things, the iraqis looked at the americans as those imposing the sanctions. 2003 habits and yet there was a moment in which the iraqis, i think, have this deal and were ok, we don't want to have war but we don't want saddam hussein. lets see what happens. what happens is a civil war at such magnitude that 20 years later -- this is the sad story -- 20 years later, people are yearning to the dictator, they were days of peace and prosperity. this is a direct outcome of the disaster that enfolded since 2003. it is the unimaginable that happened that led people to yearning -- nermeen: ghaith abdul-ahad, what followed the invasion of 2003,

but if you could elaborate, you argue in the book that come as you said just now, saddam hussein was not weekend, if anything he was strengthened by the sanctions even as millions of iraqis suffered these devastating consequences. you also said that while the of his rule change. i will quote a line from your book to you, "the old obsolete were replaced by a new set of values based on islam portraying himself as the pious father like tribal chic. could you explain what happened and what that meant for what followed? >> saddam came to power in the 1960's. the narrative of the language was of this national liberation

and linkage of socialism. it meant nothing. supporting anticolonialism and that language and he and his ministers were always dressed in military uniforms, the sunglasses, cigar. after 1990 in the invasion of kuwait, saddam had to change the narrative. the security forces were weakened because of the sanctions, because of the bombing. he needed a new way to control society. so religion served multi-purposes. it created this -- in a society suffering -- the religion was a solace, a way to find answers

against americans imposing the sanctions. so that served a purpose. the spread of religious movements in the middle east, saddam by talking a religious narrative himself, he managed to pull the carpet from the movements that were spreading around the region. that religion became a way to control society. the mosques, the network of preachers. it also the tribes became another method to control society. where he cannot -- he can depend on, was the word, faithful, loyalist -- that happen all over iraq. then iraq moved from a secular whatever, country, adopting rhetoric come into a country adopting tribal and religious rhetoric.

saddam did not allow any extremist religious movement to exist in the country. any political formation with threatened. but that religious narrative, that religious rhetoric allowed, created the basis upon which sunni and shiite movements emerged after 2003 to oppose the americans and fight the jihadis. nermeen: let's go when the americans come in. you describe a scene in the book when you see an american marine covered statue of saddam hussein with the american flag. if you could respond to that? excellent what your response on the response of others there was to that. in any fact you yourself a few days after the invasion, you were arrested. can you explain what happened? >> i was in my neighborhood come in my house and i followed them

to the square is how the statue being toppled by the marines. the iraqis could not bring it down so the marines used their vehicles. on tv, this iconic image of this u.s. marine pulling a u.s. flag from his pocket and covering the face of the statue. of course at that time, there was this collective gasp of, "oh, my god, what are you doing?" later i came to realize, that american marine was a very honest person. he, unlike the journals and politicians and people in the pentagon and george w. bush talked about liberating iraq, that marine saw the war as it was, as a war between the united states, his army and the iraqis. he saw the u.s. as victorious.

that act, he was more honest in reflecting the realities. that quickly became the reality on the ground. soldiers were no longer liberators. very soon you see them pointing their guns, managing checkpoints. as all arrogant and hubris drought history, when you send soldiers occupy in a foreign land, -- they will see all iraq is as their enemies. imagine how they saw iraqis. a few months later, i was driving back with another iraqi friend -- the day saddam was arrested, we were at an army checkpoint at night. they were suspicious of us. are we driving at night? it was our country. we were taken to jail.

we were released the next day but we slept in this cell. they take us to iraq and we are all crouching on the ground. that is the face of the supposed liberation. it was never a liberation. it became an occupation very quickly. insurgency starts, for whatever reason. some jihadi, some nationalist. they fight against the americans. americans will -- putting men into detention, humiliating, breaking into houses. you see the whole province fighting against the americans. it was doomed from day one. there was no scenario in which

an american army with all its legacies in iraq and the middle east and the region can transform -- which sunni called it occupation. -- which they soon called it the occupation. that is the disaster. >> i want to stick with a day that statue is brought down. remember cnn domestic and cnn international, on cnn international, they were showing a split screen of the statue coming down repeated over and over again. the marine was just outside the frame. it looked like iraqis brought down the statue. on the other side with a casualty of war. cnn domestic had the same access to that video but they were just showing saddam hussein's statue coming down. on march 20, shock and awe,

americans love fireworks, and that is what it looked like. you see the bombs in the sky and you see a statue coming down, but not the casualties of war. can you talk about what that was on the ground, ultimately hundreds of thousands of iraqis died, and how that led to, as you talk about the rise of isis, what everyone thought was the united states -- there's is huge division between sunni and shia. you said you did not even want to ask that question when you are translating because you said you did not often know who was sunni or shia, that this was often fractured by the invasion and occupation. >> so to go back to that point of where cnn and the domestic cnn -- 2005, i came to new york for the first time in my life and i switched on the tv. americans were dying.

i felt like i would see this war been broadcast daily to the american audience. i don't remember the channels on local tv. there was nothing stuck as if life was going on. anyhow, the point is after 2004, april 9, that occupation did not stop there. they created its own dynamic within society. the occupation -- with the occupation came a group of exiled politicians who had evolved sectarian, political thoughts in exile, in very close -- claustrophobic, very traumatized places. they have all lost people and friends and cousins. so they sued the regime. sunni vs shia.

they were isolated from the country. we never had any -- let's remember the regime change in iraq started in the mid-90's, the late 1990's. it did not start in 2003. the narrative that was sold to the americans was a narrative of a part of society dominated by another pt society. that was criminal. horrible way of thinking about iraqi society. i grew up in baghdad. i don't want to say there were no sunni or kurds or we were all equal. it was saddam and his regime that dominated. his army, some officers try to topple saddam in the 1990's. it was a sectarian narrative. every narrative based on

victims, one part of the population are victims than the others are the victimizers. when the americans came, they saw saddam -- by association, every single sunni became tainted by iraq. the process of purging the army -- all of these policies were directed at sunnis. they are pushed in the corner and they have to reject this and american adventure -- occupation in iraq. the lack of security in iraq after 2003 allowed the jihadis in the iranian establishment to flood into iraq. all of these different elements led to the establishment of a civil war.

the, narrative ofi, people talk about the civil war as it happen in 2005 after the bombing -- for me personally, i think civil war in terms of fighting, terms of killing started 2004. the civil war started in society not when men carry guns, but when society is divided between us and them. that is a prelude to civil war. of course that civil war, coupled with corruption of the iraqi establishment or sectarian -- led to the emergence of isis in iraq and syria. nermeen: could you say it was you, just to go back, you attended saddam hussein's trial. could you describe the scene at that trial and what you think the repercussions were of how that trial was conducted for

what followed? >> the problem with direct, we don't know the history and we don't know our history. we don't know why saddam started the war against iran. we don'know about the policies that led him to invade kuwait. i thought finally here is saddam on trial, why don't we do an international tribunal? why don't we put him in front of the u.n. like what happened in bosnia and serbia and other countries? no, because of the iraqi and american politicians did not want -- he would not be executed . was going to be executed regardless of the result of the trial. the americans did not want the u.n. involved.

instead of saddam being put on trial in front of theraqi people and us doing what he did and why he did that or -- instead we have a charade a trial in which saddam not only emerged as this hero under the arab world, he reinvents himself as this dignified man in front of a bunch of i don't know how to describe them, like a circus, a charade. they turned saddam into a hero and the arab world is looking for hero and a look at him. driving among the streets, you always see the picture of saddam on the back of a taxi window. why? he was reinveed for them thanks to that charade of a

trial. we never got any reason. but then what happened was his execution, mutilating his corpse, and the sense of -- defeat a defeated segment of society. it is all playing into the sectarian narrative. amy: we don't have much time, but i want to ask you 20 years later, what do you want the world to understand about u.s. invasion, about your countryi, and if you have any hope at this point? >> amy, i just what accountability. i don't want people to go to jail. i want all the people who executed and planned this war, the people who killed iraqi civilians whether it be

americans or iraqis, i want those people held accountable. not to go to jail or shot and killed, but history to be told. 20 years later, can have a moment of reconciliation. this is what is lacking. you look at iraq 20 years later, it is a very wealthy country. yet parts of baghdad and the south of the country are really poor. you look at the iraqi political establishment, and you see many people who still command militias, have committed atrocities turn the civil war that led to the death of thousands of people and they're sitting in parliament or appearing on tv every day. why? because there no accountability. same thing with your country. people either dying peacefully are going to pain and reinventing themselves -- this

is a disaster. all of these lives, iraqi and american, are lost and wasted for nothing. amy: we have to leave it there but we will do part two and post it at democracynow.org. ghaith abdul-ahad, his new book "a stranger in your

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