committed crimeagainst humanity and war crimes. this is inside story. nick: welcome to the program. united nations investigators say

security forces and armed militia groups in libya have committed a wide range of war crimes and crimes against humanity. they say they have evidence of abuses carried out against libyans and migrants stranded in the country. commissioned by the un human rights council, the panel also accused the eu of aiding and abetting abuses by sending support to libyan forces. u.n. documented hundreds of cases of murder, torture, rape, enslavement, sexual enslavement, and enforced disappearances. they found evidence that libyan authorities curtailed rights to assembly, expression and belief to ensure obedience and punish criticism against their leadership. the panel also sets support given by the e.u. to the libyan coast guard intercept migrants is a violation of human rights. libya has had two governments

since 2014. they view on cease-fire created hopes for peace with both sides agree in to hold relations. he was supposed to be replaced after elections but the votes never happened. they are being postponed indefinitely. tension has escalated between rival governments after the prime minister was appointed. let's take this on. our guests are salah al bakkoush, political analyst and former senior adviser to the negotiating team of the high council of states. in brussels, we have julien hoez, e.u. foreign policy analyst and editor of the french

dispatch. in istanbul, anas el gomati, founder and director of the sadeq institute. a warm welcome to you all. the report lays out a terrible situation getting a great deal worse. >> as far as it is concerned, i do not think many libyans or international observers are surprised by what is in the report. this comes from a credible source. a lot of work went into it and it provides a very neat package of facts, but that the e.u. is empowering some groups in libya that are committing crimes

against immigrants and libyans, especially people with political views and women. that is not news so i am not surprised. nick: in general terms, the support -- report, how serious do you think it is? >> i think anything that describes any form of human rights abuses is serious in general. if you look at our fundamental values, it is very serious to hear that anything provided by the e.u. is going to fund these. it raises questions about where are we in terms of accountability. on top of that, it is being

abused and misdirected to cost of human -- to cause human suffering. i do not think anybody in the e.u. would be happy to hear that the funding being provided by the e.u. is being used to harm libyans. nick: the report is not suggesting that the e.u. is committing human rights abuses. tell us a little bit more about how this might be happening. >> there is always a risk when you are providing funding outside of the e.u. there are different processes for tracking expenses on top of the weaker governmental functions. when their week government

institutions, it is much harder to track where funding and equipment is being sent, where it is being used, how it is being used. it is very easy to waive one hand on one side and take care of things with the other. perhaps the e.u. needs to get more involved in processes on the ground. the claim of the commission is that the money is not being physically given to partners in libya. it is being allocated and being utilized by external partners, including the u.n. we need to look at where the

problems are and where the money is going. nick: where do you stand on this? they are refuting the claims that the money is going to the smugglers. he says it is quite to the contrary. most of the money goes in order to take care of these very people, the migrants. how do you assess the whole situation? how do you assess the u.n. position? >> regretful to say the least. nothing could be further from the truth. it talks about members of the libyan coast guard, including the well-known human smuggler. he has definitely received institutional funding and institutional material from the e.u.

it is the relationship between the e.u. and the trafficking networks who have compromised the work of the libyan coast guard over the last several years and several governments. this report for me does not go far enough because if you look into the details, i says -- it says a fact-finding mission was not able to access southern libya, which is a point of departure for 11 migrants. it was not able to establish the hardest facts on the ground so it does not go far enough. there is in direct and drug support coming from the e.u. but it does not call things by its real name.

it is a seven year report so it starts in 2016. it predates this latest government that was established in 2021. it was the prosecutor general who shook hands with him. there should have been at the very least a deeper message coming from this fact-finding mission. not only does not go far enough, let us individuals get off scott free as well. nick: do you think the report goes far enough? >> no, it does not. i was asked yesterday of something like that. and i said it will go into a

drawer and nothing is going to happen because this is the same situation we are in today as has been happening for a while. in 2017 i was kidnapped and put in a room with no windows, no sanitation, and never left the room until we escaped. all the equipment we were given, the mattress, the other stuff, was marked with the international organization of migrants. and the compound was a illegal immigrants station. this is known. it only knows where the money goes. he knows who these people are. there is nothing mysterious

about the government and it is very hard to know where the money goes. there is no e.u. policy toward libya. france is doing whatever egypt and the uae want. and it elite, as long as you stop the immigrants, we do not care. nick: that is the bottom line. lay for our audience why it is that the e.u. would be enabling the situation. what is there and goal -- end goal? >> everybody remembers the e.u. operation to stop illegal arms shipments to libya. stephanie williams called it a joke.

this is another joke, this assistance to immigrants that is done in the name of the e.u.. nobody knows. some countries provide to some units of the government and we know these units are under the protection of unsavory units. the e.u. knows that, but they have no policy on libya. nick: this is all done with the intention of stemming the flow of migrants into europe. >> the sad reality is that the

so-called migrant -- had a big impact on how they e.u. reacted to these things. it is not as effective or able to actually do what it needs to do. on top of that you have the discord internally. we need to be doing a lot more to find out what is going on. the reports need to be more robust. until they are and until we have more information, unfortunately the reality is we are not going to see a big reaction from the international community. because you will have people who claim innocence and ignorance in

many cases. the problem is we need a more -- we need more information. we need to know exactly what has happened, what funding has been used and figure out how to stop it because it is criminal. it is negligent that the people working in libya have allowed this to happen. funding and equipment is being used to commit crimes against humanity and crimes against migrants. it is a sad byproduct of the increasingly polarized nature of the world that is actually preventing more effective action in these domains.

there is no words to express how awful this is. nick: we talk about accountability. the report talks about it, especially for libyan authorities. but what about the european union and the international community? what about accountability there? >> because of the nature of the european union, it is trying to see like it is a multilateral body that functions in complete harmony, but the reality is its own member states undermines actions. my sense is that given my knowledge of previous expert reports that go into great detail about the role of states and individuals who are essentially aiding and abetting and insurance the perpetuation

of crimes against humanity, this report is far less in substance and far less in detail to the other reports. it is not a question that other reports were lesser. this is a lot less and a lot lighter. my sense is someone is dragging that down. the further you go, the further you investigate, you are looking into the activities of states and not just some petty thugs that have been supported by the ian -- e.u., but actually member states that have actually been involved in these crimes. when you look at the u.n. security council, in 2019 both of those states gave green lights to commit the war crimes

they are investigating. whether we live in a divided world or unified world, the very same things happen there. i have absolutely no faith that the un security council members themselves will do anything to actually call for any kind of action to right those wrongs. it requires those member states to be honest about their own actions. many of them are selected on the ground. -- still acting on the ground.

nick: do you think it will go further down the line? >> absolutely not. if the trend continues and libya should be looked at as the example of where states are experimenting in not just brutal war crimes, but they have mastered the art of doing it through plausible deniability. you do not have to go there yourself. you can hire mercenaries or militia to do it. they use smugglers to do this.

when we get to the critical stage of saying how can this happen and who was responsible, they can put their hands up and say it was not us and you have no definitive proof. and that is what this report has done. it is the mastering of that kind of art of work there -- art of warfare. the same individuals that are there are having their handshaking by the icc prosecutor. the un envoy said he would support the candidacy for presidency by an individual bet as detailed as being a war criminal in this report. there is nothing positive to come from this. it is drastic, but calling

things by the real name is only the beginning. nick: let's focus specifically within libya itself. it talks about how the authorities there have committed a wide range of war crimes. the point is nothing will change until the political situation within libya does and stabilizes. >> of course. but how would the situation stabilized when you have things that make libyans lose faith completely in the international community? i will give you two examples. a few days ago, we had a picture of the under secretary of state of the united states shaking hands with holly fox after.

many reports talk about what he did. he was indicted in the u.s. federal court. not only that. three years ago, the mayor of benghazi was kidnapped and everybody condemned the act. a few months later, there was a picture declaring that they decided to release him. nobody knew where he was. nobody talked about it. and now he says she has to be allowed to run for president. so what would the libyan people do? bailey just lost space in the international community. i think right now they may really consider basically keeping the way things are better than the consequences of letting him who has not

backtracked and decided to use the so-called powers on the ground to initiate elections. the powers on the ground is another made for these people that are in the report. nick: the point is that nothing will improve until the political situation does, but how do you resolve this political impasse between the two sides? how much responsibility can we keep leveling at the international community? it is an incredibly complex situation. there was no easy answer as we have been talking about and alluded to. >> there is no easy answer, it is true. you are entirely correct. there is also a question and i have had this discussion with several colleagues, about how their is always this wish in the

western world to take a more active role in helping guide states for development. but the problem is that the western world has gotten skittish. this does weigh heavily on the minds of western states. and the issue that we have and the way we need to come to a better solution is engaging with the international community in finding a way of supporting political development and political restructuring if needed. in order to enable states that need to fix issues that impact people.

but the issue is in libya you would need to have all parties come together and say we agree to have the states come in and help us with these institutions. and we cannot do anything about the consent of whatever government are already on the ground managing processes domestically. while it may be a case that after the civil where there needs to be a more intensified state building effort, this all needs to come from the state itself and the people. is that there? i would need to ask my fellow panelists to give their opinion on this because i am not sure that wish is actually there. nick: what are your thoughts?

>> the u.n. has repeatedly had its emergency meetings. it creates these bodies and it brings two sides to the table. that does not represent. it is the same individuals. it draws into question how the

international community are looking to resolve this crisis. you have a very simple question. how do we move on from what has been a decade of turbulence and the recycling of the same names for up peaceful transfer of power? the same individuals have had the tools to continue this game. and the e.u. and the u.n. continue to give them those tools. they leave the most critical aspects to the individuals that hold power today. nick: we are running out of time. i want to pose a question and ask, how do we move on to a peaceful transfer of power? we have about a minute left. >> we have to change the people that are in power there since

2014. they formed nine governments. they went through two power-sharing agreements. each agreement we were promised to create a unity government, government of national accord, and a referendum on the constitution. within a year, the agreements collapsed. and now we are going back to the same way. we are continuing because some e.u. members are supporting these people. egypt wants to stay with them. that is why we are sitting here. talking about it after 11 years. nick: we will have to leave it there. a difficult and extremely

complex situation. thank you so much to our guests. and thank you too for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. you can join the conversation on twitter. goodbye for now.

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