04/06/23 04/06/23 ." [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> in my mind, there is no doubt he is being wrongly detained by russian, which is what i said to foreign minister lavrov when i spoke to him over the weekend and insisted that evan be released immediately. amy: the united states is denouncing russia for detaining

"wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich on espionage charges. we will speak to the head of reporters without borders and a close friend and reporting college. reporters without borders was nied the ability to visit julian assange. we wilspeak that the head of reporters without boers. >> we te the oprtunity of being here today in front of this jail to call for his release. julian assange has made a crucial contribion to journalism. he made possible the revelations of war crimes. amy: then "the underto scenes from a slow civil war." we will eak with dartmouth profesr jeff sharlet about his new book about rising fascism in the united states.

all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. israeli police raided the al-aqsa mosque compound in occupied east jerusalem for a second straight night, attacking and forcibly removing palestinians who were praying during the holy month of ramadan. police deployed stun grenades and fired rubber-coated steel bullets at worshippers. earlier today, israeli police escorted dozens of israeli settlers into the al aqsa courtyards. meanwhile, witnesses say palestinian men under the age of 40 are being barred from entering the mosque. rockets were fired from the occupied gaza strip in response to the latest attack. on wednesday, israeli jets struck gaza following another rocket fire in protest of the raid. demonstrations took place in gaza, turkey, jordan, and elsewhere as international officials condemned the israeli attacks on al aqsa and warned against further acts of violence

as passover and ramadan overlap. this is riyad mansour, the palestinian ambassador to the united nations. >> israeli occupying authority has no right whatsoever to tell people when to pray and when not to pray. amy: new research finds sheets in greenland and antarctica melted at a far faster rate, raising fears global sea level rise could rapidly accelerate this entry as modern-day glaciers collapsed due to human activity. the report in the journal nature found in our region continental shelf retreated by as much as 2000 feet per day. the findings came days after another study in nature found melting ice could soon cause deep ocean currents around antarctica to collapse with dire effects on the oceans. the collapse could play out on a scale of just decades or even

years. saudi arabia and iran have agreed to reopen embassies, resume official visits, and facilitate visas for its cash for their citizens during talks in beijing. this follows a china-brokered deal last month between the two nations to restore diplomatic ties following a seven-year dispute. meanwhile, french president emanuel macron is also in beijing meeting with chinese president xi jinping. macron stressed xi's key role in helping reach a diplomatic end to the ukraine war. >> the russian aggression in ukraine is dealt a blow to the stability, it ended decades of peace in europe. i know i can count on you under the two principles i just mentioned to bring russia to its senses and everyone to the negotiating table. amy: macron also said france and china agree that nuclear weapons should be excluded from the ukraine war. china vowed to take unspecified actions after taiwanese

president tsai ing-wen met with house speaker kevin mccarthy and a bipartisan congressional delegation in california wednesday. speaking from the ronald reagan presidential library, he urged to expedite its arms deliveries to taiwan. this is tsai ing-wen speaking from a joint press conference with mccarthy. >> i reiterated taiwan's commitment to defending the peaceful status quo. which president reagan championed, that to preserve peace, we must be strong. amy: ahead of that meeting, chinese aircraft carrier group was spotted in the waters off taiwan's coast. china views any official meetings with taiwan as a challenge to its sovereignty. former vice president mike pence says he will not -- donald

trump's legal team could try to appeal the decision to this comes after a d.c. appeals court rejected an emergency request by trump to block former aides from testifying before the grand jury citing executive privilege. those officials include former chief of staff mark meadows, former white house advisor stephen miller, and ken cuccinelli, who was trump's acting deputy secretary of the homeland security. this all comes as trump faces an april 25 court date in new york where a civil suit brought by author e. jean carroll alleges trump raped her in a dressing room at a department store in the mid-1990's. indiana republican governor eric holcomb signed a bill wednesday banning gender-affirming care for children. the new law, which takes effect on july 1, will require trans youth who are currently transitioning to stop taking medication by the end of the year. 12 states now have such laws on the books after idaho republican governor brad little signed a similar bill tuesday evening.

meanwhile, republican lawmakers in kansas on wednesday successfully overrode democratic governor laura kelly's veto of a bill barring transgender athletes from competing on k-through-12 and college sports teams that match their gender identities. in texas, the justice department has reached a tentative $144 million settlement with relatives and victims of the 2017 mass shooting at first baptist church in sutherland springs which left 26 people dead. victims sued the u.s. air force after it failed to report the shooter's history of violence to the fbi, which should have prevented the gunman from obtaining the assault rifle and other weapons used in the attack. the settlement came as students at more than 100 schools walked out of their classrooms wednesday in a nationwide protest against gun violence. the walkouts included students in uvalde, texas, denver, colorado, and nashville, tennessee -- just some of the places across the u.s. where at least 74 people have been killed

or injured by guns in schools so far this year. in nashville, faith leaders held a peaceful sit-in protest at the state capitol inside the office of republican speaker cameron sexton. they were calling on the tennessee legislature to abandon its plan to expel three state legislators who supported students demanding gun safety. house republicans, who hold a super-majority in tennessee, are voting on the expulsions today. to see our interview with tennessee state representative justin jones visit democracynow.org. north carolina democratic state representative tricia cotham announced wednesday she is switching parties and will become a republican. her move gives a veto-proof supermajority to republicans in the state house as they attempt to ram through new abortion

restrictions, anti-lgbtq laws, and other measures. in wisconsin, republican lawmakers are already talking about impeaching newly elected state supreme court justice janet protasiewicz after her decisive win in tuesday's election. her victory gave wisconsin's high court a liberal majority for the first time in 15 years and renewed hopes that wisconsin's abortion ban can be reversed. this week state senator duey stroebel told "the new york times" impeachment was not impossible. in nevada, a man is facing murder charges following a car ramming that targeted the food not bombs distribution site in reno. 55-year-old michelle jardine was identified as the dead victim, while two others were critically injured. david turner admitted to intentionally attacking the three. a new report by the maryland attorney general's office finds nearly 160 catholic priests and

other members of the archdiocese of baltimore raped or sexually abused more than 600 people over a span of eight decades. its authors called the breadth and depravity of the abuse astonishing. just hours after the report was released wednesday, maryland's state senate passed the child victims act, which removes a statute of limitations to allow more survivors to sue people who sexually abused them. governor wes moore promised to sign the bill into law. the maryland catholic conference opposed the bill and has signaled plans to challenge it in court. and in the mediterranean, doctors without borders says it rescued 440 migrants after responding to a distress call in rough seas off the coast of malta on tuesday. the passengers werfrom syria pakistan, bangladesh, egypt, somalia, and sri lanka. 30 of them, children. meanwhile, rights groups are condemning the u.k. government's latest anti-migrant move after it rented a massive barge where it says 500 asylum seekers can be housed while they wait for their cases to proceed.

this is british prime minister rishi sunak. >> we are bringing forward alternatives that will save us money and indeed reduce pressure on hotels, and also putting through parliament a new law which will ensure if you are right illegally, will not have the ability to stay. we will be able to detain you and swiftly remove you to your own country for a third alternative country. amy: amnesty international u.k. called the plan "ministerial cruelty." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, the united states is denouncing rushford attaining wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich on espionage charges. we will speak to his close friend as well as the head of reporters without borders. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "hold the line" by pete seeger. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman, joined by my democracy now! co-host nermeen shaikh. hi, nermeen. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show looking at the case of evan gershkovich, a "wall street journal" reporter who was

arrested and jailed last week in russia on espionage charges. he faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted. russia has accused evan of trying to obtain state secrets related to the russian military. he had reported in russia since 2017. his parents had fled the soviet union before he was born. "the wall street journal" accused russia of arresting gershkovich as part of a "calculated provocation to embarrass the u.s. and intimidate the foreign press still working in russia." press freedom groups have denounced his arrest and urged russia to immediately release him. on wednesday, u.s. secretary of state tony blinken said gershkovich was being wrongfully detained. >> in my own mind, there is no doubt he is being wrongfully detained. by russia, which is what i said to the foreign minister lavrov when i spoke to him over the weekend and insisted that evan be released immediately. amy: evan gershkovich is

reportedly the first u.s. journalist arrested on spying charges by moscow since 1986. his arrest came just days after the united states indicted russian man who is currently in custody in brazil. the u.s. claims the man was a spy who attempted to infiltrate the international criminal court. we are joined by joshua yaffa, a friend of evan gershkovich. joshua is a contributing writer to "the new yorker" who has been the magazine's moscow correspondent since 2016. he has recently been reporting in ukraine. he's the author of "between two fires: truth, ambition, and compromise in putin's russia." and josh's most recent piece is headlined "the unimaginable horror of a friend's arrest in moscow." thank you so much for joining us on democracy now! can you start off by talking about how you know evan? talk about his history of reporting in russia and what he

was doing before. >> american reporters in moscow is by definition tightknit simply because of its size. small even before the war, 10 or so at max, people who are permanently based in moscow writing for american papers. it did not take long for all of us to get to know one another. i have been living in moscow for some years when evan arrived. it did not take long to meet him. i was immediately impressed his energy, spirit, his curiosity, his love for russia. he is of russian heritage. his parents were immigrants from the soviet union in the 1970's. very much american with that history, culture, and upbringing t nonetheless speaking russian and with a deep appreciation for russian history and culture. it was that viewpoint that he brought his coverage of russia

insider or outsider, this deep familiarity with russian culture and language but also having the outsider review that allowed him to look at russia critically and honestly but with empathy and curiosity. that was really in evan's case truthful journalistic cocktail that allowed him to do really great work in "the moscow times" which he started at and then later "the wall street journal" where he started in january 2020 two. just on the eve of russia's invasion of ukraine. he started this job and what would be the largest, decisive journalistic story for all of us. nermeen: can you talk about the range of stories that evan covered, not just while he was at "the wall street journal," but working at "the moscow times"? and why you believe he s

arrested now? >> i was impressed from the very beginning by evans journalistic output. you might even say at times envious. remember his coverage of the moscow times pandemic ther russia specifically, the early days of the pandemic in russia. he did some really important pathbreaking work scooping much of the rest of the american press corps in moscow in those days, reporting on for example medical students from russian universities who were forced into treating covid patients, to doing some of the first work that looked at the statistics surrounding covid in russia, talking to statisticians, getting sources from inside the state agency that suggested the government was downplaying the covid toll in russia. that was a story that gave momentum as the pandemic went on but evan was among the first to look at it. it goes back even further, i remember a story about dying

natively which is in remote parts of russia -- languages in remote parts of russia. native languages that have been dying out, the soviet period coming under pressure. he wrote such an empathetic interesting, compelling feature about these dial-in witches. it was a human story andne i found myself thinking, man, that was interesting to read and almost wish i had come up with a good for evan for going off and reporting it. it was that type of curiosity, that type of industrus, energetic reporting he brought to "the wall street journal" and reporting of the war, which as i said began just a month after he started at "the journal." in belarus shortly after the war began, so russian troops movi over the border into ukraine and also coming out of ukraine as

wounded were taken to hospitals in belarus. as to what might have wanted his arrest now, it is hard to say. we witnessed unprecedented crackdown of their press in russia, further twisting of the truth even compared to the very difficult and pressurized environment the press operated in in russia even in the years before. i don't believe this arrest has anything to do with evan's work in the sense he was, is an honest, straightforward professional journalist. in other words, i'm convinced his collgues that have done work from russia over the years, nothing even remotely close to espionage or what is being alleged in evan's work. he was doing investigative reports just like all of us. he was arrested for reasons that remain opaque and unknown to me but fit in the larger pattern,

larger trajectory of both an increasing crackdown intolerance to the press, even the reign press, in russia and environment spiraling downward elections between russia and the united states. indeed, if russia's goal is to train evan for someone it was back -- this would not be the first time we saw this. last year with the arrest and trade of the basketball player brittney griner, for example. this would fit into existing pattern of russian behavior. nermeen: we will return to how this might -- these might be the conditions under which evan is released, but i want to go to what you talked about first of all in the piece you said that you don't believe he could have been arrested without putin's approval with the kremlin spokesperson saint evan have been caught "red-handed." on the one hand, you have that, the likely state involvement,

and then his russian journalist independent media colleagues who have come out in massive support for evan. "new york times" piece headlined "he told their stories of repression, now they're telling his." if you could speak about his relationship to local russian journalists. "the wall street journal" reported he was known by his russian friends not as evan but as vanya. >> essentially been the russian equivalent of "evan." it speaks to the degree to which evan was integrated into russian society, really became a local. just a f yea living in moscow, partially his knowledge of language and the culture and history that he arrived to russia with, but also speaks to his personality. he is a friendly, open, really funny guy. funny in english and russian.

he makes people feel good, makes them laugh he did a remarkable job making friends. making friends first and foremost in the journalistic community in moscow. as you mentioned, russian journalists come our peers. this is the open secret of being a foreign correspondent anywhere in the world, moscow included, part of the job is befriending the locals. the local journalists who have extensive knowledge of context, deep contacts in society, have their antenna to stories we might miss, and those relationshipsre wonderfully enriching personally but also professionally. they help us do our jobs. peopleithin the russian journalistic community, people who work at russian independent outlets whether print, online, tv, had a great fondness and

respect for evan. it is no surprise they turned out in support for him. evan, like all of us, did such a good job of covering the many ways the kremlin put pressure on russian independent journalists over the is, launching criminal cases against them, labeling them so-called foreign agents, driving them out of the country. now is the time in which evan is in trouble and they are really rallying to his support. amy: do you think the kremlin is particularly threatened by western journalists who have this deep knowledge of russia? talk about his parents, evan's parents, to the united states from the former soviet union and his deep knowledge of russia stop and then where he was picked up, the significance of what he was doing there. >> as we talked about, evan's

parents arrived to the u.s. in the late 1970's from the former soviet union. evan was born in the u.s. he grew up with a foot in both worlds. steeped in american culture, a child of the 1990's and early 2000's but also having russian parents who imparted on him the knowledge of the language but also the entire cultural architecture that comes with it starting with cartoons as a young child and going all the way up to contemporary pop culture. evan also immersed himself in. we talked about that knowledge truly allowed him to hit the ground running when he arrived in moscow to work as a reporter five or so years ago and allowed him to penetrate very quickly and deeply russian society, gain sources, navigate very difficult reporting environment in russia even before the war. it was not the easiest place to show up and begin to work as a

journalist, but evan was able to develop sources relatively quickly and deeply. at the time of his arrest, evan was one of a handful of american reporters left in moscow. manyeparted moscow after the start of the war last march. russia passed a series of wartime censorship laws that affected to criminalize any honest or factual reporting about the war. it has not been used against western or american journalists and that led all of us come evan himself, continue to think there was a particular niche or safe space for foreign journalists to operate in moscow that we were free from the kind of repressive laws and pressures that russian journalists faced. that gave us both a sense of duty and responsibility but also a bravery of a sort that we were

representing for had a protected category. and that allowed us to move around the country and report on stories and subjects that have become very problematic and impossible in many cases for our russian colleagues. evan reported extensively on the aftermath of the invasion in russia, what it meant to russian society, what it meant for the russian economy. he was among a number of authors of a massive investigation they came out in december about exactly how putin himself gets information about the war, the degree to which putin is isolated and doesn't get the most up-to-date information about what his army is doing or achieving or not achieving on the ground in ukraine. he was arrested in a city in the ural mountains. he was working on another story connected to the russian

military effort. shows the degree to which evan is and remains a committed reporter devoted to the story, devoted to telling the story with as much fact is city as possible. that means he was going places that other reporters were not necessarily going. for example, another town in northwestern russia were evan went this year, published a piece earlier this spring about the reaction of the city home to a number of military units that suffered heavy losses in ukraine to gauge the local reaction. i and readers benefited from these on the ground, tactile detailed reports. nermeen: josh, we only have a minute, set in the piece that espionage trials in russia almost always end in a conviction, are held entirely in secret, and talked about with

the possibility is for a prisoner exchange, given the fact a lot of russians said the kremlin is interested in getting back are held not in the u.s. but in europe. one of the people you mentioned who might be the person with whom an exchange by take place is -- if you could elaborate on these things? >> this is definitely in the round of speculation. we don't know exactly what the kremlin wants. the idea the kmlin has in mind a trade and taken evan hostage seems likely but not yet confirmed. if anything, evan should be freed because he is innocent, not because he can be traded for someone that russia wants back. there are a number of figures linked like this assassin who killed a chechen in berlin, now held in prison, has connection to the msp. that could be someone

russia wants back. it could complicate the process because it means it is not simply up to the u.s. to release that person but would have to gain the agreement of european country, and all of that could potentially make it more, located. i want to emphasize that is just speculation. evan should be freed because he is unjustly imprisoned and charged with false charges, not because he is of values an exchange hostage. amy: joshua yaffa, thank you for being with us, contributing writer to "the new yorker" who is a close friend with evan gershkovich. we will link to your piece. thank you for joining us from berlin as we turn now to paris to speak with christophe deloire , the secretary general and -- of reporters without borders,

director of reporters without borders. i want to ask you both about what you have said about evan's detention. you said the u.s. journalist detained in moscow is clearly a russian state hostage. and then we're going to talk about what happened to you this week. you just came back from london where you were denied a visit with wikileaks founder julian assange. the wikileaks publisher who spent the last four years locked up at that belmarsh high-security prison in london while awaiting possible extradition to the united states where he, like evan, is being charged with espionage but he faces 175 years in a u.s. prison. his crime? he released information about u.s. military in iraq, afghanistan, state department

logs for decades. start off with evan and then move on to julian assange. >> evan is clearly a russian state hostage constitutional hostage. if the russian authorities would have -- they would have clearly exposed with they had. as you mentioned, according to the spokesperson, he was arrested -- he was cut red-handed. thout that we have nothing. a lot of violations of the rights -- a should enjoy. his own lawyer could not enter

when the decision to put into detention was made. now such elements or lack of concrete evidence that clearly show the russian authorities have bad faith, that they have taken and because he was reporting in the city with a military complex. [indiscernible] said he went there to gather information about the russian military complex that constitutes state secrets. it does not define spying.

-- some foreign correspondents continue to work in moscow. a lot of them luck privacy. -- a lot of them lack privacy. clearly what happened to evan's intimidation. amy: i want to go to you outside

belmarsh. on tuesday, your group reporters without borders attempted to become the first ngo to visit julian assange since his arrest for years ago. despite being given prior approvalyou were denied entry. this is you outside the jail. >> we take the opportunity of being here today, again, in front of this jail, to call for his release. juan assange has made a very important, crucial contribution to journalism. he made possible the revelations of war crimes. he should enjoy theirst amendment op amy: joining reporters without borders was juli assange's wife stella moris who also spoke outside the prison. >> it is another instance of

this completely unjustified interference with julian's ability to try to conduct a political and also legal defense against the u.s. -- outrageous u.s. case against him. it is the fourth of april today. tomorrow will b13 years since the relee of the collaral murder video revealing that killing of 12 civilians, including two reuters bureau workers. we are now about a week away from the four-year anniversary of julian being inside belmarsh prison. julian's presence in this prison is a scandal. it is a scandal on every level. how is it ty caprevent m

from meeting with the secretary general and the global mpaign's director of reporters without borders? this is a shameful act. nermeen: christophe deloire, if you could talk about that? you said this is only one of a series of obstacles that you have encountered right from the outset in dealing with this case. if you could explain what exactly has been happening and what you hope will happen now. will you attem another meeting soon? >> what happened is i the past years, we requested to be able to visit julian in jail. we thought and approval recently which was confirmed march 21 for myself and my colleague and were

invited to come to the prison. when we arrived, they saw my passport -- sink singh according to this article, are not allowed to visit julian assange. the decision was made by the governor of the belmarsh prison. it doesn't make sense at all. first because personally i have been a journalist since 1996. it was never a mystery that i was a journalist, not a secret. i colleague was not a journalist herself. we came here as representatives of an international ngo.

as reporters without borders, not as reporters covering the case. it does not make sense. another reason that doesn't make sense, already two journalists had been able to vit him in jail. amy: very quickly, we just have a minute, but stella moris says his health is deteriorating. she was allowed to go in. do you see parallels between evan gershkovich in russia being held on espionage charges, they said he was trying to get military secrets from russia, and julian assange publishing u.s. military secrets, faces 175 years if extradited and found guilty in the united states? >> i would not compare at all the u.s. with russia.

[indiscernible] russia, 150 -- 155th out of -- what is clear, the detention of julian assange is an inconsistency. calling on joe biden to stop this proceeding that was launched under the trump administration so the u.s. can -- if and press freedom everywhere. amy: christophe deloire, thank you for being with us, the secretary-general, director general of reporters without borders, rsf, chair of the forum on information and democracy. coming up, "the undertow."

stay with us. ♪♪ [musibreak]

amy: "oh freedom" by harry belafonte. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. "perhaps the best day in history" is what donald trump called his arraignment this week when he became the first u.s. president ever charged with a crime. in a truth social post wednesday night, he called those who indicted him "radical left lunatics, maniacs, and perverts." this comes after judge juan merchan, who is presiding over the case, asked trump to tone down his attacks when merchan and manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and their families face multiple threats. trump went after both the judge, the da, their wives, the judge's daughter, as well as the staff

getting death threats. our next guest spent the next decade reporting on how fascism has become the major threat in the united states and writes about it in his new book "the undertow: scenes from a slow civil war." jeff sharlet is an award-winning journalist and author, professor of english and creative writing at dartmouth college. his book debuted on the new york times bestseller list just three spots behind firing florida governor ron desantis. welcome back to democracy now! this is a powerful work. if you can put this aftermath of this historic moment, the first sitting or former president charged with a crime in the context of the work you've been doing as you travel the country speaking to people deeply involved with the far right.

supporters of donald trump. >> i think the indictment, the arrest of donald trump, which i believe was the right thing to do, is also, virtually, fulfillment of something that has been coming for a long time. i think the age of trump in which his politics find a national conversation as having three stages. one, prosperity gospel. get rich. two, a kind of dark, conspiratorial theology. three, starting january 6 2021, the age of martyrs. it began with ashli babbitt, the insurrectionist who was killed at the capitol, and quickly became a martyr for the right. i kind of think of her as holding a spot on the cross, a placeholder that trump was keeping it warm until trump could push her aside and keep

himself up there. occupying the role of a martyr in theology of fascism now. nermeen: first of all, explain the title of your book "the undertow: scenes from a slow civil war." why you believe there is a slow civil war ongoing and whether you think this trial, as you've have said and we will go back to ashli babbitt whom you write about in the book, if you think this trial will exacerbate the fissures that you think are responsible for this slow civil war. >> yeah. i have been reporting about right-wing movements around the u.s., around the globe for 20 years. if you had asked me 10 years ago whether i thought civil war was possible in the united states, i would have said no. for all sorts of reasons.

but what happened with the language that was always at the fringe of the right, that radical civil war talk at the fringe, it started moving into the center. and people who are at the french like marjorie taylor greene carried it into the center and trump with his civil war language. after january 6, 20, i noticed a lot of american historians, folks who understand history usually does move slowly were saying we are closer to civil war than we have been in a long time. i started to travel the country talking to folks. one indicator to me is i did not even have to say question i would just say "civil war" and the answer from so many people was, "yes and they were looking forward to it" and "yes and it was a sad inevitability but they expected it."

i don't believe it is any inevitably lead but i see people -- i don't see it as an inevitability, but i see is slowly moving. casualties, people dying pregnant, queer folks we see on a weekly basis now armed men with ar-15's outside hospitals, libraries, schools. i see it is a simmering. there's more violence going on now, more guns than i've seen in 20 years reporting. it does not do as in good to say could there be violence. instead we need to recognize there is violence and how are we going to respond. nermeen: jeff, if you could go back to ashli babbitt, the woman who was killed during the

january 6 insurrection come as you point out, she used to be in it obama supporter. first, explain how you can convey -- what is trump's political ideology? what did you understand from her about how she went from supporting obama to becoming such an ardent enthusiast for trump? >> i think we can assess trump's elegy, short word for it, fascism, and really and in the classical sense, not in the way we want to describe various right-wing figures but the pleasure in violence along with the description of the rest of the world around him as decadent. i think, though, the way we understand the undertow that pulls people like ashli babbitt or some of the other figures i encountered in travels into that

sort of black hole of fascism is to recognize it is not so much about any particular issue but rather it is an aesthetic, as fascism is, but also a theology. that is why i said the prosperity gospel comes from evangelicals and the idea that god once you to be rich in a way that you know that is because he has made your pastor so rich. trump's golden plate is evidence of god's intention. the next stage of that, which are referred to as an and americanized agnostic gospel, conspiracies, initiates -- secret initiates and of waterless canals but what trump calls the deep state. this is sort of an appealing idea that you have this inside track of knowledge. and then we come to martyrdom, which of course we know has always had this kind of pull,

the victimization of white grievance which is the sort of the current the pulls white supremacy along. amy: jeff sharlet, i want to turn to the far right georgia republican congress member marjorie taylor greene who was just in new york to rally for donald trump where she was drowned out by whistles. but she was heard loud and clear this past sunday in an interview that you are extremely critical of on cbs "60 minutes" with leslie stahl. this is a clip. >> the democrats are a party of pedophiles. >> i would definitely say so. they support grooming children. >> they are not pedophiles. why would you say that? >> democrats support -- even joe biden the president himself supports children being sexualized and having transgender surgeries, sex rising children is what

pedophiles do to children. >> while. -- wow. ok. amy: that is leslie stahl saying " wow, ok." you tweeted -- "as a journalist w/ 20 years on the far right beat, i'm going to close-read @60minutes' mtg segment. to start "mtg is as famous as they get." that's their justification: fame. aka popularity. aka the fundamental currency of fascism." and then you continue with 30 more tweets. lay out your critique. >> i think the undertow as my inquiry and how to tell stories about fascism. the understanding that a lot of the ways we have used in the past, they don't work anymore. they have not work. lesley stahl on 60 minutes" give

us a massive class and how not to tell. in that clip that you show that wow and the arched ebrow, pa of that is -- i think lesley stahl's imagination that she still occupies a center, that she can dispatch that which she finds distasteful with her arched eyebrow. she failed to recognize marjorie taylor greene is not a rising star because she is not trying to enter the same cosmos. they are trying to redesign the worldview to create a kind of fascism -- lucid dreaming in which you can make the seemingly absurd assertions. lesley stahl can't really content with that using a frame they have we're going to have a polite conversation and we are going -- she is going to rely on what she feels is the absurdity of that to debk what marjorie

taylor greene is saying. it is worth saying, "but they are not pedophiles." this sexual pathology of the right, it is a mythology i think you can't fact-check a myth. it is not based on claim to reality. marjorie taylor greene knows that. she knows her powers in spectacle as fascism is always understood, aesthetic politics. what she did, in some it amounted to a defense of marjorie taylor greene. when you show b roll of lesley stahl strolling along with marjorie taylor greene and marveling at her beautifully kept lawn, it is saying, see, that this person was dangerous but here i am walking safely along with them. marjorie taylor greene is dangerous. you need understand the danger, not that she is going to go

fairly and attack lesley stahl, but she's going to remake this country in a fascist image. nermeen: if we could go back, ashli babbitt and how she moved from supporting obama to supporting trump and then also talk about you say the rise of fascism in the u.s. is part of a global fascist moment. if you could explain what you mean by that. >> that is sort of a microscope and a telescope. ashli babbitt and what sort of focused so much on her story is when i saw her killed on january 6, 2021 and it was a capitol police officer who shot her as she was climbed through the window, she was carrying a knife , the officer was a black man. i knew what the right we do with that right away. that is the lynching story.

that is the justification. they would take ashli babbitt and h are backwards. they said she was 35, she was in her 20's, she was 16. they made her small, innocent, white girl. i was interested in who this person was really a discover she joined the air force at 17, motivated by 9/11. war she was twos deep -- she was two wars deep. eight diplomas. she was a democrat. she model her life on the coin brothers movie "the big lebowski." something about trump in016, her first tweet on october #lovetrump gave her license to indulge in what she been resisting her whole life. she was deep in debt. they gave her the license to say

instead of trying to be a bter person, what if i let myself go into this undertow, give into the racist feelings i have an me , lives close to the border, get into the misogynist feelings. it felt to her, she described it as a liberation. she felt free giving into her worst impulses. i saw that play out again and again in the lives of people you would not expect. they were not the usual suspects. you would not suspect would be drawn into that undertow. you said the global fascist moment. yeah, i think it is worth understanding because the tim tatian a little -- this unique figure of trump that was able to open the door to change that vernacular. as democracy now! did such a wonderful job doing, fascism has always been a rabbit has been

around the globe now so we have erogan in turkey, recently the trump of brazil. there's a buddhist monk in myanmar who calls himself the tribe of myanmar -- trump of myanmar. it is global fascist moment coming out of the failure of neoliberalis the pandemic. take it back to the intimate of individual lives, of grief process. -- of grief unprocessed. also the grief of the pandemic, the grief of climate change. she does not process it. she turns it into rage. she calls that rage "love" and that is what you see with all of the january 6 that i spoke to, driving them into the capitol and driving them now into a more

dispersed kind of simmering conflict. america this week the and gary prime minister, the far right orban tweeted his support for president trump any of marjorie taylor greene comparing trump being arrested to nelson mandela, to jesus. finally, you start the book with harry belafonte and and with pete seeger. why? >> partly because i cannot stand to take more readers on this dark tour without hope. but the hope and looking for is not the cheap "we can do it." i spent a lot of time with a great harry belafonte. you'd know him from "if i had a hammer." you know harry belafonte from the banana song. i did not know these work

radical songs when i was kid. harry belafonte in his 90's now is an angry man. he knows the civil rights movement which was absolutely instrumental, it did not succeed -- the struggle is long. what do you do come he says. it is not where your anger comes from, it is what you do with it. you seeing your song and then give it away. take it from the top and you keep singing. this is his call to an imagination of the threat of beauty that i try to run through this dark story because i think if we're going to find our way through the trumpacy, it is not going to be by returning to some normal that was never that great but by following the model of these ng-ago singers. anyways, unfortunately,

forgotten. had a vision of a liberation politics which can meet fascism in a way -- chuck schumer say cannot. amy: jeff sharlet, thank yñçñçñç

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