>> engaging with china, francis resident and the head of the european commission both in beijing. hoping xi jinping can help end the war in ukraine. will china with china accused of signing with russia, what could it offer? this is "inside story". ♪ >> welcome to the program i'm nick clark. eu leaders are in china for a

high-stakes meeting with president xi jinping -- xi jinping. cutting on china to bring pressure to its senses and end the war in ukraine. macron is joined by european commission president who says china's position on the war will return -- will or sermon -- can he change xi jinping's mind on the war in ukraine? >> french president macron being given the honor of a state visit welcome by his chinese counterpart xi jinping. one of europe's most influential leaders, coming to ask china to exert its influence on russia to bring an end to europe's worst conflict since world war ii. >> i know that i can count on cue to bring russia to reason and everyone to the negotiating table. >> this was a xi jinping

visiting russian president vladimir putin last month. since moscow's invasion more than a year ago, beijing has stayed neutral and proposed a roadmap for a cease-fire and peace talks. poster western leaders have criticized the plan. but the french president has been one of the more conciliatory voices among heads of state. two weeks before russia's invasion, he met president putin and has spoken to him several times by phone over the past year. many are now watching to see if macron and xi can provide a breakthrough. >> china insists on the peaceful resolution and is willing to work with france to maintain the rationality of the international community and avoid actions that could further escalate the crisis. >> in a show of european unity,

macron is accompanied by the european commission president. she has taken a tougher line on china's failure to condemn the russian invasion. the europeans are looking at the very least to dissuade china from supplying russia with arms. >> we also count on china not to provide any military equipment directly or indirectly to russia. we all know arming the aggressor would be against international law and it would significantly harm our relationship. >> the signing of trade deals on this trip is seen as aging's attempt to maintain european relations even as ties with the u.s. sour. >> i hope china will tell president macron, and -- that it

is important to have a european perspective. which may or may not be identical to that of the u.s.. >> chinese and european leaders hoping to traditionally strong trade links can lead to a diplomatic breakthrough. ♪ >> let's take this on, i am joined by our guests. in washington dc, colleen cottle. in beijing and china andy mok. welcome to all of our guests. if i could start with you. why this dual pronged approach, the combined visit?

>> it is to show that france is part of europe and macron knows that china knows that china likes to have a volatile religious with other countries. the case when -- went to beijing. macron is insistent on showing that france is a part of the european union and when dealing with china with 1.5 billion people is better to deal from the basis of representing the european than france. he insisted on bringing -- when xi jinping went to france,

he invited them to take part in discussions. it is important for macron who is insistent on highlighting the fact that europe has a strategy that has interests that are to those of its allies such as america, to show europe as a political identity and france as always promoted the idea of political european union. >> for the president, the optics are pretty good, the most powerful people in europe coming to him. >> i think certainly china recognizes and president she recognizes that china has important contributions to make on the global stage.

whether that is in europe, in the middle east, with the recent rapprochement between iran and saudi arabia, and other parts of the world as well. i think it is no surprise that we are seeing these for this. more to come, i believe you drove sanchez from spain will be visiting china shortly as well. >> europe is stuck in the middle between china and the u.s.. 2-wood degree is -- to what degree is the u.s. wanting this conversation between europe and china? >> i think the united states would like to see action from china on ukraine that would bring us closer to a solution. if there is an ability for eu leaders to gain traction, there

is skepticism here and parts of europe on whether that is possible or whether this visit gives resident she the diplomatic win. but not but on the spot to make any movement towards the resolution. there is hope, but there is also skepticism and awareness that this may be counterproductive and feeding xi's view of china as being the center of the world stage. >> how closely do you think the eu policy alliance with u.s. policy on china? >> i think that the speech that centerline gave last thursday, whether that resents the entire eu, i think of an open question, but a lot of those analyses that

are contained in it, that china is moving, turning a page on reform, moving to a security focused state, is the driver of its policies. what xi jinping has been doing is aligning with how the u.s. is. the u.s. view is not monolithic, there is a growing impetus to see china as a competitor in the global stage. i think ursula von der leyen data say that. some of the solutions she is proposing it are in line with economic solutions we are looking at and the u.s. in terms of making sure that you are protecting interests in your country against chinese coercion. she referenced the need to look

at investment screening mechanisms, if technology is fallen in the wrong hands. a lot of the policies are in line. the question is whether the eu will feed them through together or if there is a diverse and -- divergences. >> how did that speech go down in beijing? it's a pretty sharp and pointed speech. fairly critical of china. >> i think the view from china would be that europe is sticking out a separate position, the key phrase here that was used is de

-risking not de-coupling. cannot blindly follow the qs going off a -- the united states going off a cliff. this a false choice, it is presented as a false choice between a more security oriented state versus one that is committed to trade and investment. i think china's pursuing both. it recognizes that it is facing a complex geopolitical environment that hasn't been seen and a long time. and it requires a strengthening of government structures, alignment of the party, the government and the people. but the same time, trade investment greater integration

with a part of the world that are willing to work with china. including europe. it is vitally important, and to these mutually reinforce each other and are not distinct and separate choices. it is not an either or, binary, black and white. >> you mentioned ursula von der leyen and macron going hand-in-hand or how much unity is there in europe as to their approach in china? or is there divergence? >> there is divergence. europe doesn't want it, france doesn't want it. germany doesn't want it. most european countries don't want it. but they realize that it is about time to rebalance our trade with china to reduce risk.

for a while europe was seen as the global village idiot, excepting all kinds of investment in this country, all kinds of imports, and not asking for reciprocity from china. therefore that is why there is a threat, in june there will be discussions on a railroad and doesn't act to see how europe can defend itself in this global world where it has suffered a lot in terms of importance. france and europe import far more than the export to china. at the center, the issue of trade is very important. but macron wanted to put forward the idea that china is not only a competition, a partner. especially in the fight against the -- to preserve biodiversity.

the fact that many contracts that have been signed between france and china today involved companies which are involved in water and environment issues which can help china with the attitude. there is the attitude that they are a competitor, but we need to redraw the rules. at the same time a partner. that's why they think there is something to be done. especially they realize that the europeans were miffed by the fact that when americans invested -- investigated -- instigated the inflation act, it only benefited european companies. europe is aware of the fact that america and france needs to

defend his interest first. we don't know who is going to be in power in 2024 in the u.s.. it is not important -- it is important for europe to assert itself. >> we will come to trade more in a minute. macron wants china to reign russia in on ukraine. how pretty is china to work with france to push hard to attain a negotiated end the war in ukraine? >> china's position on ukraine conflict has been clear and consistent. a peaceful settlement should be reached, these types of contradictions should be settled through dialogue and not through violence. we also have to recognize that

china is actually not a party to this conflict. russia is, ukraine is, countries flying military gear and intelligence to the parties, are the ones with the real power to end this conflict. of course china, france, other countries can urge the parties to the conflict to reach a peaceful settlement. it's only the parties, the two are the three parties, that are directly engaged in this conflict that can actually get to an end. >> i would disagree, i think china may not be providing, we don't know him a there's a lot of accusations and proof behind closed doors. it is providing -- by enlargements of energy from the russians. it is indirectly keeping the war

machine running in russia. maybe if china wasn't pushing -- purchasing that, it would be purchased elsewhere. it does have insolence over russia. to be trying to bring the war to a conclusion. i think it's fair to say it is part of the solution and are of the war effort. i agree that the chinese want to stay -- move it into a dialogue, they have been pushing for that. however realistic, there proposal plan is, it's an echoing of common mantras that the chinese, some of the language in the global security initiative. respect for territorial integrity. which is a confusing one to treat in the context of the ukraine war.

for the chinese, i think they would like this to go away, they don't want to seek russia fall. because that 4000 kilometer order -- a border, could spill over into china from russia. they don't want to see the conflict move in such a way that it would put putin's standing with the country at risk and trickle into china. but they also don't like the pressure they are getting from the west about stepping into the conflict more. that was part of the motivation for this 12 point plan. they are caught in the middle and recognize the 12 point plan was trying to get them out of that middle. the europeans are trying to raise the pressure up, whether that will trigger any different policy, i'm skeptical. >> europe is trying to raise the

pressure. what leverage, if any, does the eu have on china for them to lean on russia? >> the leverage that the eu has on china is that first, the eu is the main importer of chinese goods and is necessary for the chinese economy at the moment which is not growing at its usual pace. china is a victim of american sanctions. the best customer remaining for china is europe. and europe is seen as the vision of the world order that xi jinping, he sees the boards -- the birth of a multipolar world.

the new world order is being established now. he appreciates the fact that europe, especially macron, wants europe to be an independent hole in a multipolar world. to go back to the issue of russia, china has no beef. the ukraine war has been good for china, it gets cheap gas, and now for the first time, china has the upper hand. there was a breakthrough showing that china was to involve itself in the war as a peacemaker. but at least the force of reason. macron was asking for an end --

for russia to come back to their senses. and today xi jinping said clearly, that china was totally opposed to the use of nuclear, by local -- biological, and chemical weapons. that's a breakthrough. it's something which will have an impact on russia's aggressive stance that we have seen in the past few weeks and months. >> i think china has been clear and consistent for 40 years that it is following the path of peaceful development. and that a peaceful, global environment is not only in china's interest to but the interest of the world. i think this commitment to

resolving this conflict peacefully can let everybody get back to building a better world from a climate perspective, an economic perspective, and income inequality perspective. i think this is -- there is very little doubt that this is what china is aiming for. if we can come to something that was talking about earlier, this idea of deke riskingd --ede- risking. how do you read that? >> it is due to the fact that there will not invest as blindly as before. we have seen the fact that many countries and firms no longer invest in china. we want to keep chinese factories in order to have the

ability to sell their goods in china. now only 10 firms are responsible for 80% of investment in china as opposed to 49% before. due to the fact that there is a weariness towards china that they can't always trust chinese businessmen as honesty partners, not always trust chinese legal system. and therefore the companies that invest in china are ones that sell their goods in china. what other companies who use to rely on china as a cheap workshop arno -- are now creating factories and other

parts of the world. de-risking means that we will not depend on the chinese for the production machine, it could lead to problems in the supply chain and to they want to avoid to that in the future. >> colleen, xi said they have the response village he to transcend differences in restraint. he is talking about the concept of a new world order that i think china would like to see its of at the top off. what does it do for tensions? >> especially if you have an

eye on the hearings going on on the hill, the chinese communist party, it goes into the narrative that xi is looking at a world order. it becomes framed in some of the qs political circles as china is trying to take over the world. all aspects of life, democracy as we know it is over, the chinese model will get exported everywhere including here. it has the potential to be turned and used in ways that make it difficult to focus on anything with the china relationships aside from competition. there was the three pillars of the u.s. policy on china. the compete, the align, and the

effort to preserve the -- all the effort gets focused on the compete and not compete to preserve the order but compete to beat china. that rhetoric shifts the focus there. >> we are coming to the end of program. i want to end with andy. what is the view in china on that? does xi jinping see himself as the head of a new world order? >> i don't think so. i think china is becoming more central, but that doesn't mean leading the world. i want to talk about the idea of de-risking. brenyn new -- revenue salts a lot of columns. the risk that europe is facing is growth. china imports $3 trillion a year worth of goods, about the size

of the french economy. if europe is able to work with china, france might be able to lower the retirement age instead of having to raise it because of the trade and investment opportunities. risk encompasses a lot of things, some of the questions europe has are legitimate and should be addressed. but to the risk of missing out on this opportunity of chinese growth could solve a lot of european mystic problems. >> we will have to leave you there. thank you very much to our guests. thanks for watching. you can see the program again at any time by visiting our website al jazeera.com. you can also go to our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is @

ajinsidestory. pppxxxx■]■t■]■oúç

♪ >> it is a project that started in 2007. it was created to celebrate the life and promote