>> the u.s. wants to deepen relations with vietnam. the once warring countries already share strong trading ties. closer political and military cooperation however presents hanoi with a difficult balancing act. why is washington wooing vietnam? this is "inside story." ♪ hello and welcome to the program. i'm dareen abughaida.

they were once at war, and now 50 years after american forces pulled out of saigon, washington continues to build closer ties with vietnam. it's located in one of the world's most contested geopolitical hot spots, with increasing military and naval competition between the u.s. and china, not least over taiwan. washington has been seeking to increase its influence in the area by forging new alliances against china. so the u.s. secretary of state antony blinken has been in hanoi for talks with prime minister pam minchin and other leaders . his trip came just after the 50th anniversary of america's withdrawal of combat forces from south vietnam and the end of its direct military involvement in the vietnam war. blinken enthused about a new era of cooperation without mentioning vietnam's giant neighbor, china. >> i also focused on how our

countries can advance if we have a free and open indo pacific. one that is at peace and grounded in respect for the rules-based international order . when we talk about free and open we mean countries being free to choose their own path and their own partners. goods, ideas, and people will feel free to cross land, sea and skies and cyberspace. dareen: for 20 years the u.s. , was at war with north vietnam . the legacy of the conflict lingers on with chemical agents and unexploded bombs still causing illness and injury. estimates vary but at least 1.3 , million people were killed since then there has been a . since then there has been a remarkable transformation in ties driven by business trade between the two countries has grown 200 folds since diplomatic normalization was achieved in 1995. last year total trading goods exceeded 138 billion dollars

with vietnam being among america's top 10 largest trading partners. the u.s. is vietnam's number one export market. altogether, vietnam posted 116 billion dollar trade surplus with the u.s. led by shipments of goods like electronics, clothing and footwear. well the ruling communist party holds unchallenged political control in the country and it's been sharply criticized by international organizations over human rights records. human rights watch calls it dire in virtually all areas. amnesty international report stated independent journalists , activists, religious practitioners, and other government critics were arrested and charged under repressive laws human rights defenders were . subjected to widespread harassment, digital surveillance, arbitrary arrests, and politically motivated torture and other ill treatment prosecution. continued to be reported at an

alarming rate. this is something blinken was challenged about in hanoi. antony blinken: with regard to human rights and the relationship that we have, this is a conversation that we regularly engage in and as we've said to our counterparts it's very important that we continue to speak directly, openly, and candidly about our concerns. and that is exactly what we do. dareen: to discuss this i'm , joined by our guests. from singapore is chong ja ian, who's an associate professor of political science at the national university in singapore. he's also a non-resident fellow at carnegie china. from colchester in the uk we're joined by natasha lindstaedt, who's the deputy dean of education in the department of government at the university of essex. natasha is also a u.s. foreign policy specialist. joining us from seoul is donald kirk, who's a veteran

correspondent and author of who has covered asia. he has also covered asia and vietnam extensively. a warm welcome to you all. thanks so much for your time. donald kirk, so vietnam has been on the recent itineraries of senior officials of the biden administration, like the vice president, like the defense secretary, but how significant is the visit by blinken, and why now? donald: it is extremely significant. clearly vietnam wishes to get along with both china, it's immediate and huge neighbor, and with the united states. in a sense vietnam can play the vietnam has some specific u.s. against china. vietnam has some specific problems with china over who's controlling the sea out there, over drilling for oil and natural gas under the water, and also there's some islands that the vietnamese would very much like to recover, including the paracels which were once

vietnamese islands but taken over by china just before the end of the vietnam war. so there are a lot of issues. and the u.s. can put on the appearance of supporting vietnam and possibly give them leverage in negotiations with china. i should add, while mr. blinken was in hanoi participated in the groundbreaking for construction of a huge new american embassy in hanoi. i think the embassy is going to cost well over a billion u.s. dollars. and it'll take a few years to build it but it's an immense embassy that they're building there. in other words, it's a huge american presence. dareen: right.

symbolically, what does this tell us? donald: right. the fact that america is placing such emphasis on vietnam has a lot to do not just with vietnam but obviously with america's policy about china it's america has set up well what amounts to a policy of containment certainly the chinese think it's a policy of containment against china and that they see vietnam as fitting in with his policy , not that vietnam will be an enemy of china, vietnam cannot consider -- cannot afford considering be an enemy of their huge northern neighbor. but vietnam can certainly play the u.s. against china not only for trade but also for diplomatic support on sensitive issues. dareen: ok. all important points we will

drill down into but let me bring first, in natasha from the uk. what do you think about this visit? what does the timing signal to you about what the u.s. is looking to get out of this? natasha: i would agree. the u.s. is trying to get closer to vietnam to upgrade the relationship as a way of countering china. so the u.s. is opening this relationship -- the u.s. is hoping the relationship will get stronger with security issues and they are trying to at least discuss sending over ships for the coast guard in vietnam and vietnam had previously gotten most of its vessels from russia and as vietnam's trying to rely less on russia, the u.s. is trying to come in. no word if that will get passed by lawmakers but the u.s. is also trying to increase its bilateral economic ties and it sees vietnam as a really

important piece to its indo pacific strategy of countering china. it's trying to convince vietnam that china's assertiveness in the south china seas poses a threat to vietnam and that these bilateral trade ties are really important. as had already been mentioned, vietnam exports most of its goods to the u.s., its number one exporter it goes to the u.s. , over $109 billion worth of goods. and while officially china is vietnam's biggest trading partner, that's really because vietnam is importing many chinese goods. so there are important economic relationships with both countries, but i think for vietnam, they don't want to antagonize china, it's geographically too close to china, there's a long history with china, and so they don't want to be too open about whatever role they might be

playing in the u.s. effort to counter rising china's power. dareen: right. the u.s. has been pushing for a boost in relations with vietnam to what is called a strategic partnership. how likely is that to happen now? natasha: so we don't have word if this has happened yet after this recent meeting. i think the u.s. is trying to push for this and it's possible that biden will make an official visit to vietnam in july. so from the u.s. perspective, they definitely want this. from vietnam's perspective, though they want to increase some of these security and economic ties that they have with the u.s. just for their own you know pragmatic reasons, rational reasons that it may benefit from them they have to be very careful about anything that they do that could upset beijing. they don't want to be too open or outward about this so i do not know if this is something

that will be officially declared by both countries. dareen: ok. so we've been hearing that u.s. officials are reluctant to describe this visit or really any visit to asia in terms of china, preferring instead to discuss the importance of improving bilateral ties. from where you sit how much do , you think china is actually the focus? dareen: -- chong ja: i think china is part of the consideration but i don't think it's all of the consideration so for the u.s. i think it's pretty important for them to keep a presence in the region they have a lot of economic interests as we've talked about they also invest very significantly in southeast asia and for southeast asia it also provides a vital link between points west and to the u.s. allies, japan and south korea. so for those reasons i think the u.s. would like to maintain a robust presence. they are concerned that chinese efforts are trying to box them out of the region. i think that is the background. the consideration though for not actually mentioning china at the forefront is because these

relationships, the idea of keeping the u.s. presence in southeast asia, has to do with you know creating a sense that the bilateral relationships, the multilateral relationships in southeast asia matter in and of themselves, they are not just derivative of the prc and they're not just derivative of competition with the prc. and i think that's something that regional states will sort of take i think the this is part some heart from. i think the this is part of the lesson from past u.s. engagement with southeast asia. i think many southeast asian states, vietnam included, don't like the fact that you know they are sort of secondary they're instrumental to a larger u.s. interests elsewhere. and so to be able to maintain and nurture that cooperation the u.s. has to emphasize that the relationship has a quality of its own. and certainly i think regional states like vietnam have an interest in further engagement.

dareen: how much of a difficult balance? i mean cooperating with washington but at the same time as has been alluded to without upsetting beijing? chong ja: it's going to be difficult beijing as many people have seen have been pretty briskly recently so that's the importance of not upsetting beijing but i would also throw in that there's is a certain domestic element governments that are in disputes with the prc. vietnam looms large here. they have a domestic sentiment that i think will punish their leaders if they seem to be caving in so working with the u.s. is one way to square that . there are multiple dimensions to the relationship. we should not forget and i think sometimes looking from the outside in the domestic dimensions get a little bit forgotten. dareen: let's talk about domestic dimensions with donald kirk.

you've covered vietnam for so long. how do you think that the public actually view the united states and also this relationship with the u.s.? donald: in my return visits to vietnam i had a lot of other , americans who've been back there are always surprised by the affection many vietnamese feel for the united states. i am not sure if i totally yet understand why, since it was a terrible war in which the americans were to blame for ongoing problems, we are talking about the agent orange issue which continues to maim and stunt the lives of many people in the region where agent orange was dropped in a misbegotten effort to kill the jungle and expose hiding places of the

north vietnamese troops. i go back to the old wartime term, north vietnam and south vietnam. we do not say that these days. dareen: does south vietnam favor expended ties with the u.s.? donald: i think they do. i think that for someone who was there during the war, for any american, vietnam can be a quite pleasant place to visit now. one issue i should mention is the u.s. very much wants to keep the south china sea and open waterway.

south china claims it is their territory. vietnam is on the south china sea and the u.s. is showing it supports the opening -- the openness of the south china sea, which would include vietnam's rights to do as it wishes in the south china sea, including oil and gas exploration. so the south china sea is very important. and on the others' line, the philippines has problems with china and the south china sea, with the united states, and the united states is conducting wargames right now. so all of that --

dareen: let's bring in natasha. the u.s. has military bases in the philippines, it's bolstered military corporation with taiwan . to what extent is their real comprehensive maritime security corporation right now between washington and hanoi and where do you see that heading to? natasha: it is increasing aggressiveness with taiwan and would china take accident taiwan, and it is concerning not just to the u.s. and taiwan but also other countries in the region, including vietnam. so that really drives you know home the need to have a little bit more security cooperation taking place there, but of course like i said they need to tread carefully here with anything that they do on a security front because that could escalate things with china

further, as it doesn't want the u.s. to increase its sphere of influence or influence in in the area, it is trying to push out the u.s. and assert itself more clearly. so i think there are avenues here for more security cooperation, but it is a very delicate tight rope and i think from vietnam's perspective, they are trying to do what is rational, increase economic ties, increase access to weapons so they can diversify themselves away from russia, but do so in a way that does not antagonize their relationship with beijing. dareen: could there be blowback from beijing if vietnam gets too close to the u.s. when it comes to issues of security and military cooperation?

ian: sure. i think beijing has shown itself to be quite willing to put pressure on its southeast asian neighbors, vietnam included there's recently been more . there's recently been more activity in terms of the prc doing more exploration right off vietnam's coast vietnam doesn't like that. that's a sort of ongoing dispute the prc obviously has a lot more capabilities that it could bring to bear and vietnam that's one reason and why vietnam is trying to be very careful. but apart from the maritime space, i think vietnam is also very mindful that the mekong river which a lot of its people that depend on for the livelihood the up the upstream it runs from the prc, and prc dam building there has sort of have really affected the ecosystem in a sort of downstream environment so one of the concerns that vietnam also has is that if they get into a really tough situation with the prc, there are several levers that the prc could use this -- could use like trade, military stuff in the maritime domain, and stuff that is done

upstream of the mekong river so that's why i think they hanoi probably wants to tread very carefully they probably would like the additional assurance of being able to work with the u.s., but they will do so carefully and quietly in order to avoid any unnecessary friction with the prc. dareen: natasha, under the obama administration in 2011, the former presidents had announced the pivot to asia policy which i'm sure you're very much aware of too deep in american strategic footprint across the asia pacific and vietnam stood out as a very important country today if you fast forward to today 2023 what do you think the us's strategy is for the region hasn't shifted much from what obama set out to do? natasha: i think the u.s. has continued to try to strengthen ties with asia and we have seen that the level of bilateral trade with different countries in asia has increased in the

u.s. is trying to increase their presence. i think that actually the thing that has changed more so than what the u.s. behavior has been china's behavior. china has become much more assertive not just in asia but in latin america and africa as well and has wanted to kind of push the u.s. out. so while we have seen the u.s. increasing bilateral trade ties with a lot of these countries and trying to create a block against china, i do not see the behavior changing that much from the obama administration, but more we are seeing a confident and assertive china on the world stage. dareen: donald would you say , that vietnam is foreign policy can be somewhat limited due to its sheer proximity to china? that vietnam will always be keen to keep relations with with the northern neighbor on a level playing field? donald: vietnam has to be very concerned about china.

the chinese-vietnamese relationship goes deep into the history of the region. obviously they want to stand up to china, but they don't want to infuriate china, either. getting back to the point discussed a minute ago, the battle lines, the line of confrontation between the u.s. and china has much sharpened in recent years. there are a couple of quasi alliances, they're not quite alliances, there's the quad four , including india, japan, u.s., u.k.. the quad four, which can be very

much seen as an anti-chinese grouping. and then there is also the australian u.k. u.s. alliance which also can be seen as a very anti-chinese grouping. certainly the chinese see it that way. so i would say that since the obama administration, the the sense of confrontation has deepened. it was a little blurry during the obama administration but it is getting more sharply defined. dareen: we are mentioning russia a moment ago. the war in ukraine, what we found recently was vietnam did not vote when it comes to the u.n. generally assembly resolutions, vietnam did not vote with the west, condemning

russia's invasion of ukraine. there must be growing pressure on vietnam from the west, particularly the united states, to side with them on the ukraine issue. are you surprised vietnam is playing a balancing act here? donald: i would not be surprised by that. there is no reason for vietnam to condemn the russians in ukraine. what does ukraine mean to vietnam? they have every reason to want to remain on half decent terms with russia. there is no reason for them to condemn the russian invasion of ukraine. they can see it as not their immediate concern and why should they get involved. dareen: for the sake of time, i am jumping in. en, -- ian how important is the

, russian vietnamese relationship when it comes to trade issues, oil and gas? ian: i think for oil and gas, certainly there is a degree of trade between vietnam and russia. it is not as significant as the u.s., but it is key for vietnam. vietnam still is quite dependent on russian technology and russian equipment for their military so the ability to stand up to china, the ability to maintain a presence on the south china sea, is trying to wean away from that but these are not the platforms. they don't want to upset moscow.

vietnamese officials, military officials, were on vietnamese tv explaining how not voting with the u.n. does not mean that the accept the correctness of the invasion and brought up their own history so i think a lot of what we are seeing is an uneasy position vietnam is facing and their efforts to navigate through the choppy waters created by russia. dareen: we only have one moment left. natasha, i want to ask you about human rights because human rights organizations criticize vietnam for their human rights. secretary blinken in alluded to it. is this something the u.s. will turn a blind eye to? ian: -- natasha: the u.s. will

say different things openly while trying to pursue vietnam as a trade partner, and different when they tried to send over ships, lawmakers might block it on human rights grounds. the u.s. is not one monolithic entity. there are different groups trying to put human rights front and center and then there are the diplomatic needs which might trump whatever the needs are on the human rights agenda at the moment. i think what will be more important is trying to push things forward economically because vietnam is so important to the u.s. in the effort to counter chinese growing powder -- growing power. dareen: all right, we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us . we appreciate your time. thanks for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website, aljazeera.com. for further discussion, go to our facebook page. it's facebook.com/ajinsidestory.

join the conversation on twitter. our handle is @ajinsidestory. from myself and the whole team in doha, thanks for watching, and bye for now.