news at your fingertips. folly: tunisia's main opposition is behind bars. rached ghannouchi is accused of plotting against state security. this comes as president kais saied intensifies his crackdown on opponents after granting himself greater powers two years ago. so what is next for the country where the arab spring began? this is "inside story." ♪ hello and welcome to the program. i am folly bah thibault.

a judge in tunisia has ruled the leader of the opposition ennahdha party must stay in prison before facing trial on charges against state security. rached ghannouchi is the latest among journalists, trade union leaders and of -- and other leaders to be held. his offices have also been held down. he is the highest opposition opponent of president kais saied to be arrested so far. we ennahdha party 81-year-old head of the ennahdha party spoke before he was detained and said tunisia is not a dictatorship. >> the battle in our country is between democracy and the dictatorship that wants to confiscate all the gains of our blessed revolution. the legal cases against us are empty and meaningless, according to legal experts. the problem in our country is not with me, the unions, or other parties. the problem in tunisia lies with the dictatorship and his mutual coup pushing the country towards more calamities and famines.

folly: there has been a lot of international reactions to the latest events in tunisia. turkiye's president recep tayyip erdogan has expressed concern over the rest of rached ghannouchi. malaysia's foreign ministry said it was deeply concerned. the u.s. condemned the arrest of critics, while the european union underlined the need for fair trials and respectful rights of defendants. >> the federal government is monitoring domestic developments in tunisia with great concern. we see the erosion of democratic structures and the further narrowing of civil engagements. the rest yesterday of rached ghannouchi is one in a worrying series of arrests that represents the tunisian op position this year. whatever the tunisian people are doing, whatever freedoms they have bravely fought for, all of that is now obviously up for discussion. we urge the tunisian government to uphold the general principles

of the rule of law. the right to a fair trial and freedom of expression. political pluralism must continue to be possible in tunisia. folly: let's take a look at what is behind the political instability in tunisia. kais saied was voted in as president in 2019 after securing 79% of the vote in a runoff election. two years later he suspended parliament and awarded himself the power to rule by decree. n june 2022, he fired dozens of judges. the rest of the judiciary went on strike in protest. the following month, and new constitution was backed in a heavily boycotted referendum. december saw another record low turnout of voters. since early february the government has arrested more than 20 political opponents who criticize the president. tunisia faces other challenges. the economy is under severe pressure, hit hard by the pandemic and global factors. talks with the have stalled and

president saied rejected the terms of a new $1.9 billion bailout deal. farmers say a severe drought is threatening its grain harvest at a time when alternative supplies are being affected by the war in ukraine. water distribution to many areas has also been hit. we asked the tunisian government for someone to join us for today's program, but it declined. so let me bring in our guests. we have elizia volkmann, a journalist and photographer with a focus on north africa. in london, kaouther ferjani, an activist and the daughter of jailed tunisian politician said ferjani. and in paris, amine snoussi, a political analyst and independent journalist from tunisia. thank you for joining us. elizia, let me start with you. there's been, as we have heard and seen, a wave of arrests in

tunisia recently. but how significant and concerning is the arrest of rached ghannouchi? some tunisian outlets said the reason for his arrest is because he made comments threatening a civil war recently. elizia: this is the most high-profile arrest to date. it's something that kais saied's followers had been calling on for some time, or certainly his advisors have been pushing him to do this. but he has held back. this is actually the 10th time. the -- this time they raided his home. it's a big step up from where we were a couple months ago. the modus operandi is -- folly: what exactly is rached ghannouchi being accused of?

elizia: the charges is conspiring against national security. this is under the penal code, and it carries very heavy penalties. either lifetime banishment, or the death penalty. so these are very serious charges, effectively of treason against the state. folly: kaouther, your father, the mp said ferjani, is one of the leading figures of the ennahdha party, and he is also currently behind bars. can you tell us what your father's being accused of? kaouther: he is being accused of being involved in the conspiracy, something the judges who sent him to prison said that my father was never suspected, never listed as part of those

who were part of this conspiracy. they also initially only asked him as a witness. it's only in the end they decided to keep him, but we already knew they were going to keep him, as kais at the time of the hearing said anyone you have detained, you keep them detained. folly: so there are no specific charges against your father? kaouther: no specific charges, from what i have been told from the lawyer. they actually said that during his hearing, they thought he may be involved and they are looking for evidence. so they sent him to prison while they find evidence. folly: ok. amine, let me bring you in. the ennahdha party has been the main focus of this crackdown. why is kais saied's government

going after the opposition this way? amine: because it's considered the main opposition group in tunisia, because ennahdha party and a few other political parties built a national sedition front which is a group of political parties that were opposing saied's crew. so he is going after ennahdha because that is his main opposition group, his main adversary. however, going after ennahdha is also easy for kais saied the -- because he has been accusing them of being solely responsible for every crisis in tunisia. ennahdha is the perfect scapegoat for kais saied because

he can give to the people someone to accuse for their issues. he can give to the people someone responsible for their deep economic problems, social problems, etc. that has always been using that against his opponents. the judges were part of a conspiracy, ennahdha is part of a conspiracy, businessmen, generalists, actors, etc., etc. the main problem for kais saied in the next years is that he is going to run out of people to accuse. he's going to run out of scapegoats. and as we are seeing now -- folly: go ahead, finish your thought please. amine: as we are seeing now, a -- we do not have an opposition anymore.

the people left could be arrested at any time. the whole group of the national sedition front, the senior responsible of the national sedition fronts are all in jail. folly: let me bring in elizia. thank you amine, and i will come back to you in a minute. let me ask elizia a point that amine brought up talking about scapegoats. it is true this movement and their leaders were also arrested previously in tunisia. there was a crackdown against ennahdha, a number of their leaders spend years behind bars. but it's not necessarily a movement that is popular among tunisians. why is that? elizia: he is actually one of the least popular politicians. there's many more popular

politicians. his closest challenger to kais saied, she used to -- [indiscernible] culturally, rached ghannouchi and ennahdha represent what has been a constant narrative against. they created this narrative that the biggest enemy is islamists, and this has been repeated and repeated. so it is easy to see him and p aint him as some kind of devil or demon. it's in the spirit of civil society who are pretty much given passive consent to progressive authoritarian steps over the past for new year's. but there's not much of a call

saying i do not like ghannouchi, but this is wrong. one or two people on social media. folly: why is that? why do you think there has not been more, perhaps, protests from tunisians? are there some people who support these moves by the president? i mean, tunisia was the birthplace of the arab spring uprising of course. why do you think we are not seeing demonstrations like we saw in 2010 and 2011? elizia: there is general disinterest not just democracy but politics in general. july 2021, tunisia really suffered in the pandemic. economically, and also the scale, the delta variant was such that in a country that has big family ties, people were so

touched by loss and grief, and at the same time, there was a parliament in control, violence. so people really lost hope. that is one side. also, the majority of the largest party in parliament, the head of parliament was rached ghannouchi, they were easy targets. they never had total political majority. but they were seen as having had control of tunisia, so that's why they are an easy target to lash out on. folly: let me ask kaouther about this disenchantment with ennahdha. there are some who support president kais saied's move to arrest some of the ennahdha party members. there are some who say the post-revolution government led by ennahdha was incompetent and corrupt.

what did you respond to that? kaouther: i would say like elizia said, there is no point where ennahdha actually had total control of tunisia. even when they initially won after the revolution, they decided to be part of a coalition government, despite winning by an overwhelming amount. i think, again, like elizia said, due to media constantly demonizing ennahdha from the moment they joined in the transition government since the revolution as the causes for all their woes. also not seeing a magical happily ever after after the revolution, that also did not help, and was also blamed on ennahdha. also, there was a lot of -- lot to clean up, and that was also made quite difficult. in fact, ennahdha really did not

have many powerful ministry positions in the brief 10 years or so of the brief, fleeting democracy tunisia had. so i understand why they would, the ennahdha, considering it's always been portray to them that ennahdha was behind the, i don't know, their lives not becoming magically better after the revolution. and i understand the apathy amongst some. but i also think that a lot of people right now, there is a loud minority with the kais supporters. i do not know how many tunisians are really supporting him. folly: let me ask amine about that. how many tunisians do you think are supporting kais saied right now? and what are your thoughts about ennahdha? who or what do you think took tunisia off of the democracy

path? amine: i think the lack of democratic culture is what led us away from the democratic path. there is a major confusion between political opponents and enemies. and i think that is the main difference. i personally oppose ennahdha on a lot of things and i have never agreed with their policies. however, that does not give you the right as a president to strip them from the right to participate in public debate, from their right to have political figures, to have their freedom of speech and freedom to organize meetings, etc. and that is a major difference that was not -- that kais saied does not believe in. that a lot of political actors before kais saied did not believe in. there were always people who were questioning democracy and using tactics that are close to dictatorships. that's the issue. during the 10 years, we didn't

diffuse, we didn't communicate enough to explain the principles of democracy and the culture of democracy. when it comes to kais saied, i think he has a lot of supporters, because we have been talking about the disenchantment of ennahdha. but people are still believing in kais saied's promises, and kais saied promised a lot. kais saied promised new public transport. folly: and he has not delivered on a lot of these promises though. amine: of course, and that is the critical point. folly: so again, the same question i asked elizia a moment ago, despite the fact he has not delivered on these promises, why are tunisians not taking to the streets and protesting as they did in the past? amine: it took 20 years to protest. but i think the critical point is people are believing kais saied because they are believing

his scapegoat tactics. he always convinces the people that he didn't deliver because ennahdha, mp's, lawyers, etc. he always finds a reason. the critical point is when he will not have any more excuses not to deliver, and he will fail to convince the people that he's able to do anything for them. and i think that's the moment that people will realize and understand what happened in the last two years. folly: elizia, let me ask you about the international community's reaction, or some would say lack of reaction to the events in tunisia. some would say that it has not been as vocal and united, and they have not condemned these actions as they should have.

why do you think that is? why do you think the response from the international community , from the europeans, from the americans to some extent, has been somewhat muted? elizia: in europe there is a parallel shift to the right, and there is a lack of confidence that there is a clear way back to democracy. there is a certain amount of apathetic sluggishness on their part. as you say, everything is muted. we are seeing much more close alliances between tunisia and italy. more and more, france and other states are seeing tunisia as basically a buffer zone to manage some of their external problems. we've also seen that kais saied is swinging toward syria. there was a three-day visit by

the foreign ministry. there's also more dialogue with china. so for the u.s. and the eu, their primary objectives are security. for the u.s. it is counterterrorism and military cooperation, and for the eu is about border in migration control. so there's no expectations. they want a minimum level of stability. for countries like france, they prefer to just deal with key decision-makers. folly: kaouther, the response from international community has been weak so far some would say. i know you made an appeal to the british government to intervene and seek their release of opposition figures including your father. what exactly do you want them to do? kaouther: we have actually filed with our lawyer to call for sanctions against kais, two of

the ministers, the minister of justice and minister of defense. i think that is how we can start. and also possibly add more people, any collaborators with human rights violations currently happening in tunisia. i think that sends a clear and loud message. because talking isn't enough. kais clearly does not care. we, unfortunately like elizia said, we're currently going through a shift both in the u.k. and other parts of the world, other parts of europe, where we are going more right wing, and immigration is the main focus in policies. and so, then they do kind of see kais as a possible allied would -- wlly with that. but with kais, migration has increased, so even on that part of alone he is not much of an

ally. folly: what response did you get from the british government to your request? kaouther: currently at the moment, we haven't had a response yet. but it's not been -- things have escalated since. so we do hope that we do get something back very soon, because we are finally hearing a bit more of stern words towards kais. so, maybe. we're hopeful. folly: amine, let me ask you the same thing, the international community. we heard the u.s. state department expressing alarm over the arrest of rached ghannouchi. do you expect any significant action from the west if this crackdown intensifies in tunisia , and why do you think the condemnation from the west has not been stronger and louder? amine: as has been said by

kaouther and elizia, kais is the perfect ally for far right europe, and we are seeing how the far right is gaining influence, imposing racist agendas everywhere. and kais saied has made it very clear when it comes to immigration, he allies with the interest of the european far right. he wants to do border control for them. so really, that is something the far right is looking at. and the far right has was been vocal about kais saied. even since the coop, they took a position publicly in the european parliament and supported saied's actions in tunisia. so when the far right gains that much influence in europe, it obviously leads to political figures like kais saied in the middle east. folly: elizia, let me ask you about the future. tunisia was where the arab

spring started in 2011. there was a lot of hope for this country, this was the first success of the arab spring. and today it finds itself in this situation, an economy in tatters, they are still waiting on this. what do you think the future holds, and does the government, does president kais saied have a clear plan to bring the economy back on track, and what are his goals ultimately? what does he want? elizia: this is the biggest concern, the economy. signs have shown consistently he is completely inept when it comes to the economy. and empty headed foreign policy. what he wants, he has been completely obsessed with this idea of a new constitution, and sort of unfolding his plan. but then he gets sidetracked

with these crackdowns and when he hits bumps in the road. the real concern is if the economy really does break, and we are all seeing signs of it, the lack of investments in the agricultural sector, investments in other areas, big companies leaving. so unfortunately, an economic crash is looking much more likely. that could bring chaos, unfortunately. folly: kaouther, i am going to ask you the same question. what do you see the future of tunisia looking like, and what is the future for a movement like ennahdha, a movement like your father's? how does it respond to this crackdown they are facing? kaouther: honestly it all depends on the international community. because if things carry on as they do, kais is going to run

out of bogeyman to distract the people with, and i think it will -- he will start targeting the average person that possibly complains about the price of an apple or something. and i think it is become more of a police state like it once was, and possibly worse. with regards to a party like ennahdha, i personally am not from the part. -- party. i think at the moment it is about concentrating on getting people out of prison, getting back to some kind of path towards democracy. and then we can look at the futures of different parties. folly:. ok. amine let me ask you your final thought. what needs to happen to put tunisia back on the path to democracy and stability? amine: first, we need to do everything we can to get political prisoners out of jail.

that is in the short-term. on the long-term, we need to be very aware and concerned about the narrative. because if and when kais saied fails, they will be a political space. and we need to understand that kais saied is not something uncommon. there's a lot of popular stick -- he gave them the perfect tool, this new constitution that can make anyone a dictator. so we need when that time comes, to bring back on the table the importance of the parliamentary regime, the importance of separation of powers, etc. folly: thank you so much. thank you all for a great discussion. elizia volkmann, kaouther ferjani, amine snoussi, thank you very much for joining us today. and thank you as well for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at aljazeera.com. for further discussion, go to

our facebook page. and of course you can join the conversation on twitter, our handle is @ajinsidestory. from me and the whole team, thanks for watching. bye for now. ♪

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