>> on al jazeera. imran: european leaders have pledged to turn the north sea into a renewable power energy and. they want to cut the use of fossil fuels and reliance on russian gas. the plan is radical and costly. will it work and where will the money come from? this is "inside story." ♪ hello and welcome to the program. i'm imran khan. finding new sources of green energy is no longer merely an

aspiration for many governments, with the risks of climate change now felt all around the world. the war in ukraine has forced countries to seek alternatives to russian gas. harnessing sources which replenish themselves as the aim of european's -- we will discuss how realistic this is in a few moments with our guests. but first, a report on what northern european leaders have pledged at a summit in belgium. reporter: resilience, sovereignty, made in europe. but also meeting. ambitious climate targets. . those were the aims of a summit in belgium on monday where leaders from nine european countries pledged to rapidly speed up the construction of offshore wind farms and dramatically change the balance of energy supplies in europe. >> this summit marks an important milestone.

a milestone to make of the north see the biggest green power plant in the world. we aim for a capacity of 130 gigawatts by 2030. by 2050, we will be able to provide electricity for 300 million households on the european continent. reporter: the bloc's promise to be carbon neutral by 2050. but after russia's invasion of ukraine, energy security has become a bigger priority. in the fallot of the war, moscow cut its deliveries of energy supplies to europe. >> we have to make sure putin no longer has the means to exert pressure on us by turning off the gas tap. producing clean energy is the best way to produce this. the enormous potential of the north sea region is indispensable. reporter: the leaders say they will improve the security of the north sea energy facilities too. fears of attacks have grown

after the sabotage of the nord stream pipelines last year in recent reports of a russian spy ship in the north sea region. >> our critical infrastructure is under threat and we know it since we have experienced the sabotage of the nord stream pipeline. so this is a reason why we have stepped up in the european union our actions concerning preparedness. reporter: the commitment made in belgium will essentially quadruple the current offshore wind capacity in the north sea. leaders acknowledge it will take a huge investment, but they say for the security and sustainable future of europe, it must be done. ♪ imran: let's bring in our guests now. in scotland, gareth davies, founder of a sustainable energy

consultancy. his company is involved in the planning of renewables across europe. in brussels, sandrine dixson-decleve, copresident of a climate policy advisory. also the eu ambassador of the energy transition commission. and in london, noah brenner, eastern hemisphere editorial director. specializing in european oil and gas companies. a warm welcome to each of you. let's get into the tech, and i want to begin in the auckland islands with gareth davies. gareth, as far as i understand this as a layperson, what effectively is going to happen is you are going to interconnect a bunch of windfarms and harness weight energy and somehow that will replace russia's gas for a whole continent. is that the sum of it? gareth: unfortunately it is a little more complicated than that.

that's the challenge, is that this is not a simple solution. n our view, it's an achievable solution but it needs a lot of different parts put together. so, what is really important is to have the policy or the strategy lead, if you like, to understand there is the political will to make these things happen. we need to then go to the next level down and get the strategy in place to deliver the investment and the infrastructure that's needed. and indeed, some of the technology advances that are going to make this possible. but there is a lot of progress that has been made in the last few decades. this is the right time probably to launch an initiative of this type. imran: let's talk about the tech. you say the technology has come on in leaps and bounds, but it is not quite there yet. is that what i am understanding? gareth: what we have done really

has made -- is we've made huge advances in wind and solar energy. this could also be something part of the mix. but certainly offshore wind has exceeded everyone's expectations in terms of how much we have been able to deliver and at what price. what the next step entails is going into deeper waters, and going to windier parts of the waters around europe. so, bringing the turbines up around scotland and where we are based up in the islands off the north of scotland. this is probably going to be the next focus, and in fact, there are now plans being prepared for 28 gigawatts of new offshore wind around the western aisles -- isles. these turbines buried into the seabed, we're also looking at floating turbines, which have started to be introduced but the expansion of that is a major advance for the industry.

imran: now let me bring in sandrine dixson-decleve. sandrine, once again, this is not about the environment, this is not about climate change. this is about politics and russia and the war in ukraine affecting gas prices and gas supply. so, it's once again politics that is driving something that we should have been doing a long time ago, right? sandrine: i think it is a mix of everything, to be frank. yes, absolutely the ukrainian invasion has put the transition to renewables and energy efficiency, i hope -- which is also part of the mix by the way, and we cannot forget we have to think about consumption. all of this is being put on overdrive because we want to wean ourselves off of russian gas. over the last year we have done phenomenally well in transitioning. the key here now is making sure that we scale it up to the level that it has to go. and that means actually increasing, for example, the

wind turbine production capacity by two times by 2030. it means bottom fix foundation capacity four times, installation vessel capacity two times. this is a lot of shift in particular in offshore wind. but as was indicated by the previous speaker, we also need to think about coupling that with investments across solar, and then think through around energy efficiency. we know that clean electrification is the backbone of the transition to net zero, and we know that we need to radically, dramatically increase investments in wind and solar capacity by about five to seven times by 2030. i think the key now is to think through, how do we get there? one, eliminate the perversity's in the market that currently exist that do not enable us to invest and shift cap about towards renewables infrastructure. two, to make sure that we actually wouldn't place the

right funds -- and we are seeing this come out of the european union, in terms of the temporary prices and transition framework, and the thinking through the new eu sovereignty fund. and three, very importantly, how do we ensure that actually people understand that this is a potential solution to energy poverty. that we start to show that renewable electrons can be at parity with gas prices, and that we do not actually induce even greater energy poverty across the year. union based on what we are actually seeing -- across the european union based on what we are seeing right now. imran: i want to bring in noah brenner now. there is a danger that if we are doing this because of the russian war in ukraine, than that is not the driver that it needs to be. because pressure will not be in war in ukraine for a long time. at some point the gas will come back on. there's nord stream 1 and 2.

effectively russian gas will be cheaper, and this is a massive investment. there is a danger that if we were doing it for money and not the environment, it will simply go away once russian gas is cheaper and we are all friends again. noah: well, i mean, i think i would be a little bit careful about thinking that the russian gas is simply going to return. we should see some kind of pause or long-term resolution with the ukraine conflict. the companies we talked to, the traders that we talked to, all of them have a pretty cautious view. and i would say the diplomats we talk to as well have a pretty pessimistic view that europe ever returns to russian gas. if you think about it from a geopolitical perspective, but also simply from a security of supply perspective, this is an energy source that has kind of been choked and throttled, ant

very strategic times to create some of the highest gas prices the european continent has seen. and so i think what does make this much more likely to move ahead, what gives the impetus and the urgency, is simply that it is not just an environmental push driving this forward. it's an energy security push. for a continent like europe that does not have a lot of domestic resource potential when it comes to oil and gas of course, visit -- this is what energy security looks like. imran: gareth, clearly the momentum is now on the side of this. people do want to get this going. but it is going to cost billions in investment, it is going to require a buy-in from the energy companies. energy companies have already said we do not have the money for the infrastructure. where is that money going to come from? gareth: in the end, all of our energy system money comes from us, the customers, that pay for

this energy. the question is about investment, and how much upfront investment happens, rather than things getting drip fed into the system. and we have been doing some analysis looks at how much we spend as a society as a moment, year on year, on energy. and then compared it with the kind of investments we are looking at. from our calculations, it suggests that in europe at the moment we are spending around 500 billion pounds a year across europe on our energy sources. and the investment we are talking about, say, for 300 gigawatts of energy, would perhaps be around 600 billion pounds to one trillion pounds. so effectively what we are saying is each year we spend about 50% of what we actually need to make that kind of investment. so, over the next 20 years,

which is we have 20 years to do this, effectively we have the time to make the investment from the costs that we are already incurring from our energy system. what has to happen is instead of us paying that money into the existing oil and gas and coal pathways, we need to redirect that revenue into renewables. and that is what the carbon transition is all about. imran: sandrine, that as an eye watering figure, 500 billion to one trillion to get this up and running. gas is always going to be cheaper. at some point there will be a wobble, surely, people will not want to spend this money. sandrine: but this is exactly what i am saying. i think we need to bring back into consideration the fact, that actually, gas is going to increasingly going to be costly, that we cannot continue to move down that route, that we have to take perversities out of the market to allow the renewable

electrons to be cheaper. a lot of the capital is shifting from investors de-risking and seeing that renewables are the way forward and are actually the type of energy that we want to think about. in the current international context if you look at energy security, and the work i am doing on the board of edp, the electricity company for portugal, it is very clear that they have diversified and they are pulling out of coal. they will be out of coal by 2025 and fully green by 2030. there are many electricity companies across europe that are doing the same thing. they put in place just transition plans to come out of coal plants and have done so. in edp's case already. what they are thinking is the investment makes sense in floating offshore wind energy, the way in which they are addressing renewables in a variety of different countries including in the united states, in latin america, and elsewhere.

this is also creating a competitive european industry not only in terms of electricity companies themselves, but through the full supply chain and industry opportunities. actually delivering offshore wind energy impact is new supply chain opportunities in the area of solar. this is helping companies, creating new jobs, and exactly what president von der leyen as been calling for with the new greendale. i think this is the industrial and the energy revolution that is really going to transform europe. we have to stay ahead of the game, other why it -- otherwise we are going to lose out to china and the u.s., which has put in place the inflation reduction act and is moving quickly in this direction. imran: noah, where does this leave the traditional oil and gas companies? they must be worried. noah: well, i meean, for the

european majors, the company like bp, shell, this -- particularly offshore wind but renewable power in general is a major pillar of their energy transition strategy. this is different from their u.s. peers. offshore wind is an area where these companies feel they can bring competitive advantage around managing a supply chain, engineering, working in these complex offshore environments. but i think it is also really important, as we point out, that this is an industry that has opportunities globally. whether it is in the u.s., where they do have the inflation reduction act, were in parts of latin america. there's an opportunity set there where they can choose were the best returns are, they can try and understand where the best regulatory environments are, where there are incentives, where there is financial capacity to be able to partner, whether it is with financial firms or with government. so, i think the idea that europe

really needs to get this right to be able to attract the amount of investment, attract the expertise, the capacity that it needs to realize these very ambitious plans, is critical. simply saying that this is the goal that we have and then finding ways to incentivized it and to realize it in a way that is cost-effective and comes through on time and on budget. it is a very difficult undertaking and i do not think we should kid ourselves that getting this right is both important and will be a challenge. imran: gareth, that's an important word, ambitious, we keep hearing that a lot. 20 years ago it felt like that we were talking about solar energy being the future. solar energy being something that was going to radically change everything. yet here we are 20 years later relying on fossil fuels and elector city, and that has not

quite materialized in the way it should. why will this? gareth: it a number of factors. we have to recognize the incumbent forces in our political and economic systems have been to the form in the last 20 years. as one of the other contributors said, the facts are now that wind and even offshore wind as well as solar are going to be our cheapest energy sources going forward. that is to address your question about russian gas. it is very unlikely russian gas will reach prices that undercut where renewables are going to get to in the next few years. renewables will be our cheapest form of energy. it is then a question of mobilizing the supply chains and creating infrastructure to take that forward. and there are particular countries and communities that have been incredibly ambitious to get involved in that.

i think the auckland islands where i am speaking to you from our exactly one of those places where, as a small community we have increased the opportunities renewables can create. we now have 400 people, 20 or so companies in our small community that are focused on renewables. those companies are really interested now in getting involved in this huge revolution we are talking about with regards to offshore wind and how we can deliver it at an affordable price and into the accelerated way where we live -- where we use the learning we have established over the last 20 years or so. 2 sandrine, we are talking -- imran: sandrine, we are talking about the north sea now. that is a significant challenge. that has got to give you pause, surely. sandrine: yeah, no, clearly it is a challenge. but i think there are many countries that are ready for that challenge. if you look at the north sea

challenge in particular, those are belgium, denmark, -- they have all wanted to already start to invest very clearly in offshore wind. i think the key here is that, in some ways we are seeing that offshore wind farms can get to commercial scale in europe by three years. but in many cases we are seeing that there is a real problem in terms of lag times on permitting. so, coming back to how do we scale this up, how do we really start to ensure that we get the infrastructure where it needs to be and the transmission lines as well -- i mean, let's not speak about some of the politics that we are seeing across different countries. but if we continue to bring those time lags down, then we will see that the development of the projects can go much faster. and i am a bit worried about these timelines.

and actually this is a large-scale report that was undertaken by etc, the energy transition commission, and we are speaking now to officials to say that we absolutely have to reduce permitting times, and that construction really can take two to three years. but these permitting times of up to 10 to 12 years is going to kill the industry if it continues that way. we also need to think through, however, how we can continue to be very firm and vigilant around environmental impact assessments. but by the same token, enable some of these projects to get through, making sure that we are still preserving our biodiversity and pollution laws the way we should. it is finding that balancing act but also making the scale ready now and thinking through the permitting. if we compare to the u.s. where the permitting times are so much swifter, we are going to lose out if we do not start to think about this very clearly. imran: noah, sandrine makes a

point i wanted to ask you about, one of permitting, getting all of these countries together and making sure that they are in lockstep and effectively starting to build this technology. now, europe does not have a great track record and it comes to doing this. noah: nmo -- no. the permitting issue is huge. when you talk to companies trying to advance these types of projects globally, what they come back to time and again is permitting. how quickly can they get from an idea and getting the license they need to moving through all of the approvals. and let's be honest, sure, from a climate perspective, wind installations, renewable power installations are great. but we are seeing, whether it is here in the u.k., in the u.s., other places in europe, push back against putting these -- these are industrial scale power facilities -- putting these in places.

this is one reason why it has to be offshore wind. why the head of the gas in renewables division is saying offshore wind, it has to go offshore, there's just not enough land for it. there will still be constituencies to balance an trade-off. whether it is the fishing industry, environmental. and i think how politicians navigate that balance and how they find a way to move ahead with these projects in a way that -- time is money, and if they are not moved forward in a way that preserves that rate of return for companies, it's not going to work. and i think the same thing can be said about industrial capacity. building in the north sea is difficult. the oil industry has been doing it for years. and we have seen when everyone tries to do the same thing in the same place at the same time, the cost of labor, materials, and buildings goes up, and it can go up quite rapidly, and that can erode your rate of return as well. i think these are two very

difficult challenges, but this certainly can be solved. but i would keep an eye on those in terms of how much of this goal actually gets delivered. imran: we are lucky enough to be joined by someone who is from one of the companies that might be involved, gareth davies. you run an energy consultancy. there is a lot of red tape to go through. could this skupper your big, ambitious plans? gareth: i think we are all engaged in a plan that -- it is not any one person's plan. the world needs the carbonized energy. that is a well-established fact. it is our biggest priority. getting people behind that is absolutely important. i think one nuance i would make is that the headline discussion is about that we are going to do this in the north sea. the reality is that the best wind resources in europe or the northern end of the north sea

and to the west of scotland and ireland. it would be very surprising if this focus on productivity did not take the developments to those places. and i think in doing so, that will avoid some of the more acute planning challenges that exist, because the north sea is the busiest and most heavily used and has some of the most valued natural communities. so there might be a little more space in the more northern and western areas for these developments to take place. but the appropriate planning and choosing the right place is through these wind farms and other forms of allergy will be absolutely -- forms of technology will be actually critical. as will the fact that we have to spread them out throughout europe. because our weather systems go east-west generally. imran: sorry, we are running out of time and i want to come quickly to sandrine. we talked about the politics, finance, and tech.

are you talking to environmentalists and scientists about this? are there any concerns from those lobbies? sandrine: listen, i think that clearly, environmentalists, exactly as was just said, we all feel that it is time now to put in place a proper net zero carbon plan, to move towards renewable energy. where we need to be cognizant is, first of all, how can we scale up existing technology and not just think about breakthrough technology. so, how can we think through what we have now to scale it up. secondly, what many environmentalists are saying is please let's not forget -- and i say the same -- demand side management. let's not just focus on what is bright and what we think is new, and instead look at consumption. we can do a huge amount if we reduce our consumption of energy. and in the last point, and i do think this is something we are all thinking about, and that is what will be our material dependencies. we absolutely have to reduce the

use of fossil energy to zero. we know that that's absolutely fundamental. but we also need to think through our dependencies and our substitution towards material use in where it's. -- rare earths. that's one key concern that comes up but that does not mean we should pull out of fossil energy. environmentalists across the globe are very clear as our analysts and scientists, that we have to focus primarily on weaning ourselves off fossil energy, and that must be done now. imran: i want to thank all of our guests. gareth davies, sandrine dixson-decleve, and noah brenner . and i want to thank you for watching as well. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, aljazeera.com. for further discussion go to facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can also join the conversation on twitter, @ajinsidestory. from me, imran khan, and the entire team here, bye for now. ♪

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