05/01/23 05/01/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> recently we have seen very many comments what the pentagon papers showed was the war was not winnable. and that is why i gave the pentagon papers. actually, none of the people who went to prison to protest the war did so because they thought the war was not winnable. they did it because they thought

the world was wrong. amy: today, an hour with pentagon papers whistleblower daniel ellsberg, who was recently diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer. we will talk about the pentagon papers, whistleblowing, protesting the vietnam war on on this day, may day 1971 with noam chomsky and howard zinn, as well as the growing threat of nuclear war today. >> for instance in ukraine with a will possibility of a nuclear war coming out of this country. in other words, not all, exchanged as a matter of control of crimea or the donbas or taiwan. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

in sudan, both sides of the warring military factions have accused the other of violating an extended 72-hour ceasefire as fighting continues in khartoum and elsewhere on the 17th day of the conflict. the united nations is warning sudan is at a humanitarian breaking point as it deploys its top humanitarian diplomat who called the scale and speed of the crisis unprecedented. the u.n. also warned of an escalation of violence in sudan's west darfur region. meanwhile, u.n. agencies say they've begun helping refugees arriving at the egyptian border, while aid workers in chad say urgent assistance is needed for refugees there. >> if we act now, it will be too late to stop the rainy season is coming in a few weeks. if we don't provide any assistance to the people, the road will be blocked and all the refugees here will be -- amy: people in the capital khartoum are facing the dangers

of war while grappling with worsening shortages of essentials. >> hear the sounds of artillery. it can fall in the street. there is no water or electricity. there is no food. all shops are close. and the ones that are open sell products at expensive prices. we hurriedly eat what is enough for us. we only eat one meal per day -- we only eat one meal per day. amy: in the occupied west bank, israeli troops shot and killed a palestinian teenager during a raid this morning on a refugee camp outside the city of jericho. the palestinian health ministry reports 17-year-old jibril kamal was fatally shot in the head. six other people were wounded. this follows the killing of 16-year-old palestinian mustafa sabah near the town of bethlehem friday. he was shot in the chest by israeli troops. so far this year, israeli forces

have killed more than 90 palestinians. tunisian coastguards said friday they pulled 41 bodies from the mediterranean sea, raising the total known number of victims of migrant shipwrecks to 210 in 10 days. boats transporting refugees to europe -- mostly from sub-saharan africa, syria, and sudan -- have been leaving in higher numbers from the tunisian coast in recent months due to a crackdown on the boats by libyan authorities, a worsening economic crisis in tunisia, as well as racist comments against black africans made by tunisian president kais saied in february. in paraguay, conservative santiago peña, a former international monetary fund economist, has been elected president. peña's victory keeps the south american country in the control of the right-wing colorado party that has ruled paraguay for at least 70 years. peña opposes abortion rights and same-sex marriage and served as finance minister from 2015 to 2017 under the presidency of horacio cartes, whose government

was accused of widespread corruption. peña has vowed to strengthen diplomatic relations with taiwan and has said he plans to relocate paraguay's embassy in israel from tel aviv to jerusalem. in washington, d.c., hundreds of climate protesters rallied saturday seeking to block entry to the annual gala dinner of the white house correspondents' association. the protest was organized by the youth-led direct action group climate defiance, which is demanding president biden fulfill his campaign pledge to stop fossil fuel extraction on public lands -- a promise biden has repeatedly failed to meet. joining saturday's action were tennessee state representatives justin pearson and justin jones, two black lawmakers who were recently expelled from the tennessee house of representatives for leading a protest for gun control inside the state capitol. montana's republican governor

greg gianforte signed a law friday banning gender-affirming care for transgender minors, making montana at least the 15th state to ban or restrict such care. the governor enacted the law despite his own son, who is non-binary, lobbying him to block it. the aclu of montana vowed to sue as transgender and nonbinary montanans rallied friday, joined by transgender state representative zoey zephyr, who has been barred from the house floor for condemning the measure. you can see our interview with representative zephyr, as well as tennessee representative justin jones, at democracynow.org. jpmorgan chase is buying first republic bank's deposits and most of its assets after the bank was taken over by california's financial regulator. it is the third u.s. bank failure since march and the second-largest in u.s. history. first republic lost $100 billion

in deposits in march following a collapse. three of the four largest u.s. bank failures have happened over the past two months. in texas, the man accused of killing five of his neighbors, including an eight-year-old child, at their home in the town of cleveland friday night, is still at large despite a search involving at least 200 police officers. authorities said the suspect walked next door and shot the victims with his ar-15 rifle execution style after they asked survivor -- after survivor wilson garcia asked him to stop firing rounds in his yard. garcia's wife sonia arhentina guzman and nine-year-old son daniel enrique laso were among those killed.

this is wilson garcia. >> my heart is with this eight-year-old little boy. i don't care if he was here legally. i don't care if he was here illegally. he was in my county. five people died in my county. amy: authorities have identified the other victims -- that, by the way, was the sheriff speaking. diana velazquez alvarado, julisa molina rivera, and jose jonathan casarez. police said the victims were all from honduras. texas republican governor greg abbott is facing backlash after he tweeted "i've announced a $50,000 reward for information on the criminal who killed five illegal immigrants friday." critics denounced abbott's remarks as dehumanizing. this is the local sheriff's

comments. >> is with this eight-year-old little boy. i don't care if he was here legally. i don't care if he was here illegally. he was in my county. five people died in my county. amy: colorado's democratic governor jared polis signed new legislation friday to help curb gun violence five months after a mass shooting at an lgbtq nightclub in colorado springs killed five people. the new laws raise the minimum age to buy firearms from 18 to 21, establishes a three-day period for gun purchases, expands colorado's red flag law, and makes it easier for gun victims to sue manufacturers. gun rights groups have already sued over the first two measures. meanwhile, a federal judge temporarily blocked an illinois assault weapons ban after plaintiffs claimed in a lawsuit the law violates their second

amendment rights. and workers around the world are in the streets for may day rallies marking international workers' day. in france, unions say one million people could march as part of ongoing protests against president macron's pension reforms. in turkey and pakistan, authorities have blocked some rallies in public places. south korea saw tens of thousands of people turn out for its largest may day gatherings since the pandemic started. >> we are in a situation where the existence of our labor unions are threatened due to the suppression by the government and the capital. we are fighting to create a world where there are no more temporary workers. we will fight strongly to improve the legal system so that government policies guarantee workers rights. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. coming up, pentagon papers

whistleblower daniel ellsberg. he was recently diagnosed with an operable pancreatic cancer. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: leonard cohen singing "dress rehearsal rag." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. today we spend the hour with pentagon papers whistleblower can you. he recently announced he's been diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer. in a letter to friends, dan ellsberg wrote -- "i feel lucky and grateful that i've had a wonderful life far beyond the proverbial three-score years and 10. i feel the very same way about having a few months more to enjoy life with my wife and family, and in which to continue to pursue the urgent goal of working with others to avert nuclear war in ukraine or taiwan or anywhere else." dan ellsberg turned 92 on april 7. he may be the world's most famous whistleblower. in 1971, "the new york times" began publishing excerpts of the

pentagon papers, 7000 pages of top-secret documents outlining the secret history of the vietnam nam. "the times" exposé was based on documents secretly photocopied by dan ellsberg and anthony russo while they worked as pentagon consultants at the rand corporation. ellsberg have been inspired to leak the documents for antiwar protesters. shortly before "the times" first reported on the pentagon papers come he took part in an antiwar protest in washington, d.c., 52 years ago today on may day 1971 as part of it affinity group with him's chomsky and howard zinn. -- noam chomsky and howard zinn. it would help end the war in vietnam and lead to a major victory for press freedom. the nixon administration would go on to take extraordinary measures to silence and punish ellsberg, including breaking into his psychiatrist's office. but the government's misconduct

led to charges against him being dismissed. ellsberg has remained a leading critic of u.s. militarism and u.s. nuclear weapons policy, as well as a prominent advocate for other whistleblowers. i spoke to him from his home in thursday berkeley, california. dan, it is wonderful to have you with us. i am so appreciative that you are letting as into your home to have this conversation today. >> it is so good for me to be back here. there's literally no one in american 80 a, american life i more appreciate having the chance to talk about the state of the world. amy: thank you so much for taking this time. i wanted to start off with this letter that you sent to friends about learning in february that you had inoperable pancreatic cancer. can you talk about this? can you talk about how you're feeling? >> it goes way back, "you should

live each day as though it were your last day on life on earth." that is pretty hard to do. spend the day canceling appointments, not making any others. but spending this month as though it were my last month on earth is very wristlet -- realistic for me. i can recommend it to others. amy: talk about what you have been doing since you got this diagnosis and also your decision not to have chemotherapy. >> some time to go by exploring possible unusual forms of chemotherapy and immunotherapy and others if i were a candidate for them. sort of a month went by. very well intended people who work charging me to seek a way out. but those did not seem to apply after all. i just have to accept what most people with pancreatic cancer have to, that there is no promising way out. i did choose to use these days

anyway of what i say is important of the world and my last chance to do it, maybe i last chance on this program and maybe not. and to be with my family and friends. i've seen all my grandchildren and children. i've spent a lot of time saying goodbye and getting in touch with them and being a family person, which is not my forte. i love my family, but i spent a lot of time being abscessed with other things over the years and i regret -- obsessed with other things over the years and i regret that. i spent wonderful time -- yesterday was my wife's birthday. it was on april 17, 1965, not everyone can remember their first date like that, but that was the first -- against the war. i was working in the pentagon on the war, pursuing the war. she was going to interview people on a nationwide interview program.

she -- i marched up the white house hoping caring her recorder and photograph that i would not be in any picture of "the washington post" where my colleagues at the pentagon -- one, she is protesting the war, my one day off and the next day i asked her to go to the cherry blossoms and that was our first date. that was 57 years ago. amy: she was the one who exposed you, is this right, to the antiwar movement by enforcing you to carry her tape recorder? you were protesting right outside where you work. you had gone from rand corporation to the pentagon. >> actually, it was around lincoln memorial where we heard the speeches and then we marched toward the white house and around the white house. i went back that evening to the pentagon where i was working.

i was very much in sympathy with what i was hearing on that stadium from i.f. stone and others about the war. i felt at that time, as a cold warrior, we were picking the wrong place to plant the flag. this was a loser. i was not enthusiastic about our getting involved in it. but that was my job and i did it all too well. if i were asked what regrets, doing a job i was asked to do that i knew was wrong for the country and i did it to the best of my ability. the war was carried on by people who acted like that. amy: i want to talk about what you decided to do and how seminal, how key the antiwar movement was to your thinking -- not only meeting patricia, but also seeing those war resisters, what were called draft dodgers,

who said they would rather be in prison than on the front lines in the war in vietnam . >> many people in the pentagon papers came out, a lot of people in the antiwar movement said, what is do about this is what we've been saying all along, which was true, which is we had taken up the french neocolonial role, imperial role, against the self-government of vietnam and were doomed to some of the same fate as the french, socially, to keep killing people and losing people until we finally decided to go home and leave them ruling their own home. well, the insiders were pursuing the war and dropping the bomb -- even later than this. were doing the same thing and were doing likewise -- all the people is working with in the government by that time felt, everyone i could think of

felt the war was hopeless, hopelessly stalemated. the word hope stalemate was taboo. lyndon johnson had said, no official is to use the word "stalemate" and yet that is what was. the r connued. people did their jobs. it went on. eventually, what i really noticed was they were people who felt much as i did and who were doing an awful lot more about it than i was doing, namely these were young people who do not have to it -- she did not have to be an expert or have a phd to see the truth about the war vietnam in. these young people refused to go to be drafted.

when they could have gone to canada or sweden for gotten a deferment or join the air force national guard like george w. bush. no, they chose to give it a strong as a resistance as they could, nonviolently, in the footsteps of rosa parks in the south and martin at king and others to say, no, this is wrong, you have to do this on our bodies. we were not participate in this because it is wrong. i realize when i met young men like this, bob eaton and randy, were on their way to prison, simply making the strongest message they could, which i believed as well, that the war was wrong. i realized i could do with they did, to come instead of just talking to insiders who felt as

i did but agreed there was just nothing you can do about it as long as the person wanted to carry on the war and his subordinates wanted to keep their jobs under the president. they could in fact dissociate themselves and denounce the war openly. very recently, we have seen very many comments that what the pentagon papers showed was the war was not winnable. actually, -- and that is why i gave the pentagon papers. actually, none of the people who went to present to protest the war did so because they thought the war was not winnable. they did it because they thought the war was wrong. that is something i think people have not succeeded, have not been willing to recognize all these yes. nojusthat the s. had ten onome noble measu and it was't quite energet enough pursuer was easily diracted

from or something like that, but our count was, likso many other untries,apable o doin wrong and killing people without good reason. in effect, imperial kind of operation like that of the japanese or french after the japanese or the chinese before either of them. those are the footsteps we were walking in. i think to this day, the very idea the u.s. is in some was comparable to those empires is a two abu. -- taboo. it makes it impossible to understand what is going on. why are we doing this? what is happening? why in the world are we in this position. time after time fighting against the self-determination were the nationalism of other countries and taking on those murderous tasks as opposed to dealing with problems at home. i think of our country as a

covert empire where covert is a term of art in the pentagon and cia, in particular -- i worked with ca people in vietnam. my immediate boss was a retired cia general. what covert means, possibly deniable. it means not just secret, doing something that i don't tell you about, but that i plant evidence suggesting i'm doing something different and i am not doing it, somebody else is doing it. and the person a bunny is somebody -- layer after layer to prevent the president from holding in accountable to for what is happening. i think we not only feel we need and you pa able to plausibly deny that we are an empire, that we run other people's governments, other people's police forces, that we decide who goes to jail or gets shot in that country. and second, we deny the means --

military buildups, and even over wars as in vietnam or iraq. amy: dan, i want to go to that decision you made after giving your 13-year-old son robert a copy of civil disobedience by thoreau. the civil disobedience you engaged in. this is a clip from that 2009 documentary "the most dangerous man in america: dan ellsberg and the pentagon papers." >> it is the evening october 1, 1969 when i first smuggled several hundred pages of documents out of my safe at the rand corporation. the study contained 47 volumes, 7000 pages. my plan was to xerox the study and reveal the secret history of the vietnam war to the american people.

>> the fbi was trying to find out who gave quote the new york times" a copy of the pentagon secret study. >> like a thunderclap you get "the new york times" publishing the pentagon papers and the country is panicking. >> whole file cabinets can be stolen and then made available to the press, you can't have order of the government anymore. looks in has come out as possible the source of the pentagon documents and that is of daniel ellsberg, an analyst for the state department. >> i think it is time in this country to quit making national heroes out of those who steal secrets and publish them in the newspaper. >> in the first year of marriage, we are talking about him going to prison for the rest of his life. >> what you go to prison -- wouldn't you go to prison?

>> we felt so strongly we were dealing with a national security crisis, henry kissinger said ellsberg was the most dangerous man in america and he had to be stopped. amy: so that, a clip from "the most dangerous man in america." i remember when we had you on, dan, so many different times, beginning 27 years ago, you are one of our first guests on democracy now! but when this documentary came out, you and patricia, your wife, came on the show with the directors. this goes to that point where you understood the stakes of what you are going to do. you brought your two little kids , 13-year-old robert, 10-year-old mary, to help you -- not that they completely understood what you were doing -- xerox the 7000 pages of the secret history of vietnam? the u.s. involvement of vietnam? >> that's right.

i had not really meant to bring my daughter on the second occasion at all. she was only 10. but she complained about being left in the car when i went up to do some last-minute xeroxing with robert. once she was out there come she complained about being given nothing to do. so gave her scissors. when by mistake the police came to the door for the second time because the owner of the shop had not turned the key correctly and had set off an alarm at the police station, so when the police arrived at the door, they found my son, who was 13 at that time, robert, was running the xerox machine and i was collating on the floor various copies we were making. and mary, who was 10, was cutting top-secret off the tops and bottoms of the pages with scissors. kind of a family project.

they saw how innocent it was and they left. but with my son in particular was to let him see there were times the best thing you could do, you really needed to say no to government policy even at the risk of prison. i wanted him to ci had not gone off my nut as i would be describe shortly, i was sure, that i was not acting as a traitor, i was doing something in a businesslike way that i felt had to be done even though it had a risk. i wanted to plant that idea in his life. and it took hold, as it did with my daughter. my son is the editor-in-chief of orbis books, catholic seminary, theology publishing house. my daughter is head of violence against women project at american university. both having been arrested at various times. amy: and you wanted them to know

this because you recognized that this could be among the last time you are spending with them. >> yes. i thought they would be seeing me through heavy glass in prison and the way julian assange's had to grow up with his young sons and his total secured prison in belmarsh for having facilitated through taking of the same kind that i have done. as a matter of fact, his was the first prosecution of a journalist for putting information out, and it will not be the last if he is successfully extradited over here. he has a couple of children who have seen him literally only in prison step better than not seeing him at all, but -- i revealed this year that i had the information from julian assange, essentially, that

chelsea manning had given a stage and would later put out in the papers. i had them before the papers, before the newspapers had them. eating i was as indictable right now as i am talking to you as any others who have been indicted by this justice department because working with the law whose plain language is on the one hand unconstitutional from the point of view of the first amendment, but just as anyone who reads or handles or stores the piece of paper that has been marked to be protected, marked classified come is subject to imprisonment. that applies even to readers of "the new york times" and definitely to journalists like charlie savage or the publishers . in other words, in that respect, we have gone backwards since that day. that was, after all, mine was the first prosecution of anyone for telling the truth to the american people. there have been several dozens

since. the first one of a journalist actually is i think just preceding the first one of a reader. this law, it very much needs to be repealed or rescinded in such a way that it does not serve like a british secrets act which was a perfect law for an empire. amy: dan, even before the pentagon papers were published in "the times" but after you had given the top secret report to "the times," you are trying to end this war any which way. we are broadcasting this show on may day, on may 1. it was may 1, 1971 that you lead a small affinity group that included howard zinn come the late great historian, and noam chomsky to washington to protest the war. i think howard would get arrested later that day. can you talk about that moment,

that protest with howard,noam, and others? >> the idea was if they won't stop the war, we will stop the government. they had about 25,000 people, which was not enough, actually, to do it. but we were in infinity groups. i was in a very privileged one for me with howard zinn and noam chomsky and marilyn young, and a number of others, mitch goodman. we did get beaten over the head on the streets several times and got the advantage of testing -- field testing their pepper spray directly into the face, which is very effective. i can give -- it is very disorienting, and deed. again, we thought it was pretty much over when they began just

clearing the streets of georgetown by rushing everybody there, including a number of congressmen's children. 13,000 people were arrested, including rfk stadium, without any warrants, without any paperwork as to why -- in the end, they were paid a small indemnity for having done that. amy: we will continue our conversation with pentagon papers whistleblower daniel ellsberg in 20 seconds. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: willie nelson singing at our firehouse studio's. he turned 90 on saturday. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we continue our conversation with pentagon papers whistleblower dan ellsberg who recently announced he's been diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer. this is another excerpt from the 2009 documentary "the most dangerous man in america: daniel ellsberg and the pentagon papers." the clip looks at how the nixon white house's response to ellsberg's leak. first, president nixon. just cause so guys going to b a marr, we c't be in positi of allong a fellow to get awayith this kindf whol selfhievery it willappen all ov the govnment. weave to kp our eyon the main bl. thmain bals ellsbg. weave to g this soof a tch. theeague cnged t nixon white hoe. its wh some ofs wouldall

e beginng of e dark period. it w roughnd-tume before buit got dn and dty. so it a realldefiningvent of the non presincy. this is when ele crow -- ow s select to head of the -called umbersnion. >> i was summod to theval office by the psident john ehrchman ani met wi him. there s some suspici that dr. ellsrg hadccesto the more recentarples that have been developed by the nixon administration and wlde able to relse thoseocuments i camerom thateeting fling vetrony that was dealg wi the natnal secuty crisis and i w to mean necessary to respond to it. amy: that his former nixon official he will krogh. an excerpt from those -- from "the most dangerous man in america: daniel ellsberg and the pentagon papers." dan, i'm sure this is bringing you back, then breaking into

your psychiatrist office. talk about what that meant to you and if that was any worse than facing 100 years in prison. >> i think it has been misunderstood, almost always described as an attempt to smear my reputation or stigmatize me in some way. i was already an american citizen facing 12 felony counts of possible 115 years in prison, so they weren't working with a new service here entirely. i had been stigmatized quite a bit by that time. that was not the aim at all for sending it in. as krogh indicated, what they were worried about was what else i knew, namely what else i knew and could document that went beyond the johnson administration into the nixon

administration. the pentagon papers themselves ended in 1968 before nixon came in so they did not incriminate him except for his role in the 1950's supporting the french and proposing new clear weapons at that time, by the way. but he was not mainly involved. so when they came out, he was very calm about it and properly so. it is really the democrats war, federal. they realized he did not constitute a real threat for them. then they realized they had these terrific secrets that had to be kept secret from the american public because they were so criminal and dangerous, namely, they were threatening north vietnam with nuclear weapons the same way the criminal threats that are being made against ukraine right now by vladimir putin. nixon is making threats through the russian abbasid are -- ambassador. that had to be kept secret from

the american people. the american democracy would not have stood for that. they had to shut me up. the problem was to find out whether had documents, document proof what i was saying because people were very reluctant to believe the president could lie to that degree or piece of criminal to that degree and reckless. unless they had documents to prove it, which i did not have. so i failed in a way. i major project, which was to convince the public that a line campaign, imperial campaign against vietnam had been carried out by four previous presidents was being carried on by a fit. i said it but no one believed. they did knowledgeably the president was lying to them just as they had allowed themselves to be misled by truman, eisenhower, johnson, kennedy.

kennedy and johnson. so that part did not succeed. however, they had reason to feel and fear that i might turn up these documents -- which did exist. my friend roger morris had the documents, saw the documents in the fall of 1969 that listed north vietnamese targets in the jungle a mile and half from the chinese border. figured they would kill only a handful -- they had a figure of 3 -- sibling casualties, don't worry about that. they would send these strong casualties to the chinese to prepare to use to clear weapons right on their border in hopes it would bring chinese air defenses into the border and we could pursue them and not -- and use nuclear weapons against china. provocative aspects of this were

very deliberate. when i asked roger later why they did not just reveal these documents, which is what nixon and kissinger were afraid that i had -- and with reason. in all the people who were working on this and resigned over the escalation. i asked him and he said, we should have thrown open safes and screamed bloody murder. that is exactly what it was. amy: what about the latest pentagon leak, the leak of the pentagon documents and what they say about the war in ukraine and what people understand who are most knowledgeable, who are insiders about this war? >> it is shown from the reaction -- the major leak being, once again, like the pentagon papers, when a war appears to be

stalemated come, be stalemated from the inside just as well. that is what the pentagon papers showed. but there is real prospect for progress and killing people is unjustified by any prospect of any humane result. it has been shown a year from now, we will probably be in pretty much the same decisions as stalemate and will not be willing to negotiate. what does that say about the people who are making our foreign policy? if that does not define a crisis and emergency, what would? yes, i suppose the prospect we are about to lose within a month and that is not what either is facing yet. i don't want to test how either side reacts if they are facing that. if the u.s. were to do what biden is urged to do by many, which is to direct u.s.

participation in the war, shooting russians, as we say for the first time since 1920, year or two after the first will were in did we were so shooting at russians against bolshevik in 1920. every russian knows that. how many americans know that, amy? they have their very much in their memory. we met reserved is indirect planes that ukrainians can't yet operate, tanks -- they cannot yet operate. the tendency to operate those tanks will be very strong. i can only hope biden will be pressed by a large part of the public, pressed not to involve u.s. directly in that war and be pursuing negotiations which is

currently absolutely rejecting the idea of negotiations. there is increasing information. one year ago in early april, 2022, zelenskyy and putin essentially had an agreement, close to an agreement on a prewar status quo returning to a prewar status quo in crimea and donbas in relation to nato and everything else, but the u.s. and british -- boris johnson went over and said, we are not ready for that. we want the war to continue. we will not accept a negotiation. i would say that was a crime against humanity. and i say that with all seriousness. to the idea that we needed to see people killed on both sides in order to weaken the russians,

not for the benefit of ukrainians but for geopolitical strategy, was wicked. however the war started, and i think both incredibly that judgment by putin in aggression and atrocity and on the other hand, provocation by the united states in a sense of policies that were consciously foreseen to increase the probability of a russian crime of this sort, tells me i think there are a lot of americans who wanted this war and they got exactly what they wanted even better than they could have imagined. huge arms sales to our allies. the u.s. had an essential role europe with an indispensable enemy. any enemy we could not run the world without -- russia.

russia stepped into the role willingly to say russia had no choice to do what they did is really absurd. it is like saying you could provoke a person to shoot themselves in the foot. or in this case, to kneecap themselves. putin had no choice but to kneecap himself and give comes up 800 more miles of adversarial border entered resuscitate -- and to resuscitate nato is just absurd. amy: i also went to bring up china because in 2021, you revealed the government had drawn up plans to attack china with nuclear weapons over crisis in the taiwan strait. can you talk about the relevance of that today and when you got that information? >> i reveal that information right after the economist magazine had a cover with taiwan on the cover and a big bulls

mark on front of it trying was "the most dangerous place in the world" at that point. what was at stake was a u.s. intervention in politics of china, namely supporting secession movement, an independence movement by a portion of china, regarded of us universally by chinese as part of china -- almost universally by china as part of china. in a way that china was totally forecasting would lead to a war. that they would not accept it anymore than lincoln except to the secession of the fetters in this case. i have to say i cannot entirely understand it. people act as if they want war with china. how can that be? selling them arms, yes, i see that. but why they want to change the relation of china which has pretty much been the same since

1979 right now in a way the chinese guarantee us will lead to war is inscrutable to me. amy: you think these nuclear war plans over the taiwan strait were made in 1958? >> that's right. by the way, there was almost a corresponding crisis during 1954, 19 55. so this was known as the second taiwan crisis in the 1950's. but the idea was we would initiate nuclear war. if the chinese successfully bombarded with artillery, -- actually within visual range of the mainline. a couple just a mile, amount have a from the mainland. to keep those rocks from control by beijing, we were prepared to send in u.s. -- sent in u.s. ships to blockade.

if there is a danger of losing u.s. ships, we would hit chinese targets as much as as far away from shanghai which in eisenhower's terms who okayed this, if necessary. if necessary to get through to those islands, we would initiate nuclear war. he foresaw that is leading to russia, the ally of china, attacks on taiwan and okinawa, guam, even on japan -- which in turn guaranteed in terms of an all-out nuclear war, hitting every city in russia and china, killing, as our estimates were at that time, 600 million people. amy: and their relevance today? >> and that is what were planning to do then. the number of targets in china

has not reduced since then. any fighting with the russians under eisenhower come even started over berlin, was guaranteed to include targeting china. that may have changed is some extent -- to a large extent at various times, we still continue to say, shouldn't we have a plan for war with russia that doesn't include destroying china? to which the answer is, well, do we want to destroy russia and not china also? that would leave china ruling the world. in short, russia and china have to be regarded as a complete target complex. this is insanity. this is a form of insanity. it is a kind of myth in hopes that it has taken over the public, as insane as qanon or

believe trump is the president currently of the united states and yet the belief that we can do less bad i striking first that if we strike second this what confronts us and ukraine with a real possibility of a nuclear war coming out of this country. in other words, most life on what earth, not all, most life on earth being the sting wished as a matter of control of crimea or the donbas or taiwan. that is insane. who is going to face up to that? i call again to the young people -- attitude burke has mobilized to say -- greta thunberg has mobilized to say the adults are not taking care of this. our future depends on this changing somehow the past. the picture i was looking at, which i can show you, i just happen to have it by me, was

when i was in norway and getting an award. we went over to where this girl had just started fridays for the future and strike on climate. the first days and weeks entirely by herself. and then eventually, she was joined by a few others as you can see in the picture. this was i think in early january after she had started. she had 50 or 60 people on friday morning, not saturday morning, not sunday morning. instead of going to school. people said -- her teacher said, this is very well what she's doing but she needs to be studying in school. her attitude was, what is there going to be studying -- what is are going to be to study about the way the climate is going? the reason i admire her so much is not only their brilliance of this movement, her acting on her

own initially, taking the, inviting others, doing it in the form of a general strike -- which is i think a really important way of demonstrating nonviolent action, the withdrawal of support, withdrawal of support. amy: dan, i don't want to exhaust you. we have spent more than an hour talking. but i did want to ask you about what is most helpful to you after revealing that you have inoperable credit cancer -- pancreatic cancer, for friends, for people who care about what you have done, for ways people can be hopeful to you? >> well, first of all, that revelation, which i was dubious about making an thought, well, my friends ought to know this and it has gotten larger, has

proven to get me a flood of responses -- all positive, essentially -- thanking me for what i have done and recalling mes we were together and making every indication that that was a tradition of working together that people wanted to see continued. and that is above all what i would like to see. i am thinking of a friend who changed herself to major -- she chained herself to trees. amy: her tree she named luna. >> yeah, right. she mentioned once, people tell me, you inspire me and she said

i say, to do what? so i am hearing from a lot of people that i have been inspirational. i am confident that god does without people like bob eaton and randy and before them, going back to rosa parks and martin luther king and others, i would not have thought of doing what i did. i have been very, very proud. without -- it has been said without dan ellsberg, no edward snowden. thing and all these cases, in all these cases, and all these people who are writing me -- and i would like the occasion to say i am reading all of those. up until now, i've been able to answer very few of them, even the most inspiring ones. i hope to have time to do that. i don't know how much time i

have. if it is weeks or a month. they may not hear from you. if it it is lower than that, there's nothing that i would like to do then pursue the direction i have with my family and my larger family, my extended family, are the people who do regard what we're going through as an emergency and we are working together nonviolently and truthfully to change it. people have been arrested with me but also just the people who take a chance with their jobs and their associations and their work to focus on, to teach themselves what is going on and to effectively -- all i can say is it can work. amy: one of the things you enabled people to do by sending out this letter that says "you don't know how much time you have left is they're talking

about all that you have done. i am wondering what you want people to focus on, what you are proud of. >> will, my pride at this point is not my dominant emotion. i am much more aware, as greta would put it, how littl has changed in the danger ofe nuclear war and how limited the effectiveness has been to curtail what we have done. it is possible to think -- it is not reasonable to say we have done all this and it has made no difference. it is important to see it hasn't made or difference than it has and what we can do better. looking at this war going on now, the cold war is incompatible. god knows the u.s. did not just

because this by itself. and russia did not cause it by itself. there are people all around the world who want cold war, who find it better to run the world with an adversary like russia or the u.s. or china, to explain why we have to do what they say. so i think to study and perceive this is not in the hands of people -- the interest of survival hi in their priorities, is essential. it is an awakening that in many ways is painful but hard to imagine escaping our own activities without that. amy: pentagon papers whistleblower daniel ellsberg. he was recently diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer.

52 years ago today on may day 1971, he took part in a protest against the vietnam war in washington, d.c. come along with noam chomsky and howard zinn. four years later, the vietnam war ended april 30, 1975.

... dave severin: give me a "c." all: c. dave: give me an "o." all: o. eric campbell: from europe to the us, coal is under fire. dave: what's it spell? all: coal! eric: environmentalists are circling. mines and power plants are closing. even big corporations say it's not worth the trouble. josé rodriguez: we used to make money with coal, but this is not happening anymore. eric: are these the dying days for coal? and what's going to happen to mining communities? we're going to the coalface to find out.