05/12/23 05/12/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> behind us we have migrants who are asylum-seekers, who have been here for six days, seven days. some of them have just arrived last night. they are in squalid conditions. they don't have access to food or water. amy: the trump-era title 42

policy has come to an end, but the biden administration has instituted what critics say is a new asylum ban. we will go to san diego to look at what's happening at the border. this comes as a group of house democrats are urging the biden administration to lift sanctions on venezuela and cuba, which is driving people to leave their homes out of economic desperation. then we look at the political crisis in pakistan. pakistan's former prime minister imran khan has been freed on bail three days after his arrest sparked mass protests. and we go to belgrade, serbia, which is reeling after 17 people were shot dead in two massacres last week, including serbia's first ever school shooting. the shooter was a 13-year-old. >> very stringent measures, as the president put it, to disarm serbia. amy: all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. title 42, the trump-era pandemic policy that was used to expel nearly 3 million asylum seekers at the u.s.-mexico border without due process, was lifted thursday just before midnight after three years of enforcement. thousands of migrants have been stranded across the southern border hoping to be processed and allowed into the united states. but many will likely be blocked as the biden administration begins implementing what immigration rights advocates have denounced as another ban on the right to seek asylum under domestic and international law. a new policy announced this week would force the majority of asylum seekers to request refugee status in another country before reaching the u.s. or face quick deportation. the aclu and others are suing over the rule. another directive requires asylum applicants to make their

appointments on a customs and border patrol app. they say raises serious concerns over privacy. at the san ysidro border crossing in california, hundreds of asylum seekers have been sleeping on the ground under trash bags and foil blankets, with many reporting they've not eaten in days. this is hashmatullah habibi, an asylum seeker from afghanistan who said thursday he and his family have nowhere else to go. >> i am just hoping and praying today they let us in. if they don't, my future and my family's future is in doubt because we escaped from a darker place. we came here for a better life. if they don't take us in, the situation will be more for us because we cannot go back and we cannot come in so it is like a

dire situation. amy: u.s. customs and border protection has detained some 28,000 migrants at its border facilities in recent days. meanwhile, the number of asylum seekers attempting to cross into the united states has topped 10,000 a day as people continue to flee violence, extreme poverty, and the impacts of the climate crisis. homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas on thursday warned migrants arriving at the border of even harsher consequences. >> if anyone arrives at our southern border after midnight tonight, they will be presumed ineligible for asylum and subject to steeper consequences for unlawful entry, including a minimum five year ban on reentry and potential criminal prosecution. amy: we will go to san diego for the latest from the u.s.-mexico border. the former marine who killed the beloved street performer jordan neely is expected to be arrested today for second-degree manslaughter.

video shows daniel perry held neely in a chokehold for 15 minutes on a new york city subway train on may 1, leading to neely's death. penny was questioned by police shortly after the killing but was initially released without charge. meanwhile, protests continue in new york demanding justice for jordan neely. this is celina trowell, an organizer at vocal-ny. >> what we need, accountability. that comes from the mayor and the governor because his death is on their hands. legitimizing that type of murder. amy: to see our conversation about jordan neely, go to democracynow.org. prospects for a ceasefire between israel and palestinian militant group islamic jihad have faded after a lull in fighting. israeli warplanes have resumed bombing the gaza strip as palestinians fired hundreds of long-range rockets into israel and toward illegal settlements in the occupied west bank. a 70-year-old man was killed

thursday when a rocket crashed into the israeli city of rehovot. at least 31 palestinians have been killed by israeli assaults, including children. this is a 39-year-old mother living k inhan younis. >> we feel unsafe, even at home. we are afraid. one could be going down the street when a rocket hits. never to return. we don't know what will happen to us and to our children. the situation in gaza is terrifying beyond anything you can imagine. amy: in sudan, warring parties have signed an agreement pledging to protect civilians and allowing for humanitarian aid to safely reach them. the sudanese army and the paramilitary rapid support forces failed to agree to a ceasefire as talks continue in saudi arabia. since fighting broke out on april 15, more than 600 people have been killed, at least 18 of those were humanitarian workers. over 700,000 people have been

internally displaced. in pakistan, former prime minister imran khan has been released on bail after pakistan supreme court thursday ruled his arrest was invalid and unlawful. he is accused of multiple corruption charges and his arrest has sparked widespread protests. at least eight people have been killed and some 2000 arrested in the ensuing violence. as khan's supporters prepared to march on the capital, police issued an emergency order banning gatherings by more than four people. in guinea, protests against the military government resumed thursday, one day after activists said at least seven people were killed and dozens injured in demonstrations across the country. the military took control over the west african nation after a 2021 coup and have been slow to transition leadership back to a democratically elected government. this is a resident of the capital conakry. >> if he continues like this, it

won't be good. i don't like demonstrations. these protests are really tiring and we are exhausted. amy: international travelers arriving in the united states will no longer have to show proof of vaccination against covid-19. the requirement was lifted as the u.s. government thursday formally ended its public health emergency in response to the covid-19 pandemic. last week, the world health organization declared covid-19 is no longer a global health emergency. covid-19 has killed more than 1.1 million people around the united states, though that is widely believed to be a significant under-count. globally, there have been nearly 7 million officially reported deaths. the true death toll is unknown but the u.n. estimates at least 20 million. a judge in virginia has struck down a federal law prohibiting the sale of handguns to 18-, 19-, and 20-year-olds, ruling the ban is an unconstitution viation of t second endment. the justice department will likely askhe judge tput the

ruling on ld while iappeals the decion. the gun control advocacy group everytown law said thursday's ruling will put lives at risk, adding -- "not only are guns the leading cause of death for u.s. kids and teens, but research shows us that 18- to 20-year-olds commit gun homicides at triple the rate of adults 21 years and older." in texas, the state house of representatives on thursday approved a bill banning devices that can turn handguns into fully automatic firearms. the devices, commonly called glock switches, are already illegal under federal law. texas lawmakers did not advance a bill that would have raised the age to purchase a semiautomatic assault rifle to 21. this came as high school students across texas walked out of classes thursday to demand new laws preventing gun violence. their protests came less than a week after the mass shooting in allen, texas. the supreme court has ruled in favor of a transgender woman from guatemala who is

challenging her deportation. the justices unanimously backed estrella santos-zacaria, who now has another chance to argue for her right to asylum as she faces persecution back home. santos-zacaria fled to the u.s. after being raped as a young teenager and threatened with death because she is transgender. and in another ruling, the supreme court sided with a california law that seeks to breed pigs more humanely by banning pork sales from farms where the animals were kept in confined spaces. the pork industry, which challenged the law, argued it infringed on individual state regulations where producers are based. writing for the majority in a narrow 5-to-4 ruling, conservative justice neil gorsuch said -- "while the constitution addresses many weighty issues, the type of pork chops california merchants may sell is not on that list." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

we begin today's show at the u.s.-mexico border, where the pandemic policy known as title 42, which was used to expel nearly 3 million asylum seekers without due process, was lifted thursday at midnight, three years after it was implemented by trump. homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas announced the change while warning migrants of harsher consequences if they attempt to cross into the united states. >> let me be clear, the lifting of the title public health order does not mean our border is open. in fact, it is the contrary. our use of our immigration enforcement authorities under title a vein of the united states code means tougher consequences for people who cross the border illegally. unlike under title 42, an individual who is removed under title 8 is subject to at least a five-year bar on reentry into

the united states and can face criminal prosecution if they attempt to cross again stop we are conducting dozens of removal flights per week, and we continue to increase our removal flight capability. we are increasing our efficiency and reducing processing times at the border. amy: as title 42 ends, thousands of migrants have been stranded across the southern border hoping to be processed and allowed into the united states. this is a venezuelan asylum seeker near the san diego border with tijuana. >> we got off-line train to take another. the situation is challenging. one of a -- all of us are here from venezuela. it is difficult. every time they put more obstacles in our way, we will continue to move forward. amy: most of the thousands seeking entry to the united

states will likely be blocked as the biden administration begins its implementation of what immigration rights advocates say is another ban on the right to seek asylum under both domestic and international law. a policy announced this week would force most asylum seekers to request refugee status in another country like mexico before reaching the u.s. or face quick deportation. the aclu and others are suing over the rule. another directive requires asylum applicants to make their appointments on a customs and border protection smartphone at that asylum-seekers say is is riddled with bugs and races series concerns of privacy. meanwhile, migrant detentions at the u.s.-mexico border are hitting record highs as title 42 ends. border patrol authorities said wednesday they had detained a record 28,000 people. for more, we go to san diego, which is near the san ysidro border crossing in california, where hundreds of asylum seekers have been sleeping on the ground under trash bags and foil

blankets, with many reporting they have not eaten in days. we are joined by pedro rios, director of the american friends service committee's u.s.-mexico border program. welcome back to democracy now! can you talk about the situation ? as a midnight last night, but of course, this has been building up? >> what we're seeing on the ground is there are many people who are wanting to seek asylum and if they cross into what is known as the enforcement zone, between the primary and secondary border wall, is that they are essentially being left there and border patrol is not providing -- is not abiding by its national standards to ensure they have safety, that they get food, that they have plenty of water and shelter. at this time, what we see is on a rotating basis, at least 400 people, asylum-seekers with children, who have been abandoned and waiting until border patrol picks them up.

amy: can you talk about how the biden administration is dealing with this? talk about what people are telling you on the borders, what they understand has changed. >> the biden administration is dealing with this very poorly. essentially, it is placing even more obstacles for people that are flaying harm by placing bans, i ensuring people don't have a way to seek asylum, by forcing people deaf to live in inhumane ways. furthermore, ensuring they are hungry, thirsty. and when we speak with migrants on the ground, they tell us that they have no other option. they have tried using the cbp application on the phone and often times it does not work for them. there are not many opportunities for them to present themselves at a port of entry to seek

asylum, therefore, they have enforced -- especially under the application of title 42 -- to seek other more dangerous ways of attempting to cross into the u.s. to turn themselves into u.s. authorities to seek asylum. amy: pedro, you tweeted video of cbp readiness serve size at the san ysidro border that you said was meant to normalize violence as an acceptable response to people seeking asylum. can you explain? >> cbp, customs and border protection, especially under tribe and then extended under president biden, have conducted these readiness exercises where they have several hundred agents that go out at the port of entry . they close many lanes. and for sometimes up to 45 minutes, they will hold these exercises. it is a show of force that use a

sound grenades, other grenades as well, where they are meant to demonstrate the violence they would use if there were a large group of people attempting to cross at the port of entry. that has not occurred in many years. but what it does, it is a form of collective punishment because it makes it so violence becomes the acceptable form to respond to people that are seeking safety from harm. and it also conditions other border crossers to blame migrants, asylum-seekers, from having to wait even more time crossing the u.s.-mexico border. this is something we should not tolerate. it is not something that should be acceptable as a response to anyone who is seeking safety from the extreme migration patterns that they have been a

part of and they have experienced over the course of attempting to seek safety in the united states. amy: over the last month, about 100 asylum-seekers have been stuck in a kind of open present between san diego and mexico. can you lay out the human rights standards for people seeking asylum at the border and whether that customs and border patrol is seeking these standards when they hold people there with no food, with hardly any water? we did organizers like yourself out there all day and night trying to hand out food, charging phones, etc. >> to describe the scenario, we have people that have crossed into the u.s. in the space known as the enforcement zone. this is between the primary and secondary border walls. these are 30 foot high walls where they are intending to present themselves to border patrol agents to say, i fear for

my life and i want to seek asylum. border patrol has to comply with national standards that say people need to be provided with basic food, with water, with shelter, and kept away from harm. what we are seeing on the ground at this moment is that there are anywhere between 400 to 500 asylum-seekers, including many children, who are kept in that location. border patrol has pushed people into that location. they have sometimes been able to take their shoelaces from them. sometimes they will move them into that location. that is essentially an open-air area without any way of receiving any food -- with the exception of civil society that has gathered there and has been providing hot meals for them. what we saw a couple of days ago is border patrol provided a single granola bar during the entire day.

how is that possible to do that to children, especially those that are very little who don't know anything about what is going on at the moment? what we are seeking is for the border patrol to comply with these standards. these are standards that were developed back in 2015 after months long conversations that they need to comply with basic human rights of ensuring people under their custody are capped in safety. we are not saying that happening at this moment at the u.s.-mexico border in san diego. amy: in california and texas, the department of public safety and military, were forcing placing razor wire along the rio grande river in brownsville to reinforce the border. can you talk about the walls that president biden said he would not be building but what is happening there? >> we are seeing there are several locations where president biden is moving

forward with building border walls. these border walls resemble trump's order walls in terms of the features such as the height, the type of material that is used. sometimes they're being branded under another name. in texas, there being called levy walls. they mirror the same exact type of prototypes that president trump at the time was proclaiming as completely unclimbable. in san diego, he is proceeding with building two 30-foot walls that will completely decimate the experience that families have had when they arrive at friendship park and are able to meet their loved ones, be surrounded by the primary border wall, but at least have that experience -- the visual landscape will be transformed by national guard that will be there. it is something that we are asking president biden to stop

building donald trump's border wall, but we don't see any type of leeway in that direction. we're hoping civil society continues to lift their voices against the 30 foot border walls that are completely destructive. amy: can you explain the harsher criminal consequences for those who cross, which means profit for the private detention centers, the jails along the border? >> so for individuals now after post title 42 era, individuals that cross without inspection, who what to seek asylum could be banned from doing so for five years. this is something we have not ever seen in terms of the decimation of what the promise of asylum was. that no person should be turned away and placed in greater danger.

if someone is banned from seeking asylum, it absolutely ensures that person likely will face harm either in their home country or in another country. the third country ban, what we're now calling the biden ban, if someone did not seek asylum in a country that they transited through before arriving at the u.s.-mexico border, then it is likely the united states will prevent them and block them from seeking asylum in the united states because they did not seek asylum in a third country that they passed through. all of these anti-solemn measures are reconfiguring the consequences of asylum to a point where it no longer offers the promise that it did post-world war ii where countries around the world were turning people back and people were dying as a result of not having safe harbor in other countries that should have accepted them. amy: can you talk about what is happening now?

this is not just along the border. we are broadcasting from new york. mayor adams has talked about possibility of putting migrants in a shuttered prison, have already shipping people out of new york city who were brought to new york city to places like newburgh, new york. this is happening across the country. chicago and other places. what do you demand the biden administration do at this point, pedro rios? >> that is correct, amy. what we're seeing is president biden's place resources to further militarize the border by sending 1500 troops to the border. we don't know what their function will be just yet except they are saying they will be having administrative tasks. but they do then add to the national guard troops that certain states like texas already have at the border. addition of additional military troops just paints a picture

that migrants will not be welcomed with dignity but in fact will be welcomed with extreme force, that they will be turned away. and jurisdictions in other states such as new york should be receiving many more resources to expand the shelter services to ensure civil society has the means to transport people to place asylum-seekers in safehouses, at safe places come at safe shelters. we are not seeing the same commitment or dedication from the biden administration to support those order counties and other states like new york to have the resources necessary to provide the support and help that asylum-seekers date at the moment. amy: finally, trump just that if you were president again, he would separate families again and also engage in the largest deportation of migrants in history. before him, president obama was

dubbed the deporter-in-chief by his own immigrant rights allies. of course, that was the obama-biden administration. is biden continuing does policy? >> i think president biden is unfortunately. i think it is not specific to republican party. what i've been able to see is that both the republican and democrat party just have never known how to properly center human rights for people that are seeking safety in the united states. in fact, we have become a political football where the harsher he could be on border issues, the less protective you can be to migrants means that it is a way to project their

political campaigns and their political goals, undermining the premise that people should be treated with dignity and respect. that is what we are seeing now under the new biden transit man, under the continue construction of 30 foot order walls at friendship park and elsewhere, and just the rejection of treating people with dignity as they are seeking safety in the united states. amy: pedro rios, thank you for being with us director of the , american friends service committee's u.s.-mexico border program. house democrats are urging the biden administration to lift sanctions on venezuela and cuba which they say are driving people to leave their homes and head to the united states out of economic desperation. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "tomorrows another day," performed by barbara dane in democracy now's studio.

the legendary singer, activist turns 96 years old today. we will be posting an extended interview with her on our website today. check it out at democracynow.org . happy birthday, barbara! this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as title 42 ends, officials say they expect to see more asylum seekers from cuba and venezuela. on wednesday, a group of 21 house democrats urged president biden to lift sanctions on both countries, calling them failed and indiscriminate and adding that "experts widely agree that broad-based u.s. sanctions -- expanded to an unprecedented level by former president donald trump -- are a critical contributing factor in the current increase in migration." well, for more, we are joined by francisco rodríguez, a venezuelan economist and author of a new report for the center for economic policy and research titled "the human consequences of economic sanctions."

rodríguez is a professor of public and international affairs at the university of denver's korbel school of international studies. he headed the venezuelan national assembly's economic and financial advisory office under the late president hugo chavez. we welcome you back to democracy now! can you lay out how you feel these sanctions connect to the migration to the united states from venezuela and cuba? >> good morning, amy. thank you for having me on the show. effectively, there is significant evidence in the report i just authored as well as in other academic studies that economic sanctions have an adverse effect on living conditions in targeted countries. some of the studies find the sanctions by the u.s. leads to a decline in income per capita of up to 26%. that is the equivalent of causing a great

depression. another study finds increases or declines in life expectancy between 1.2 and 1.4 years. that is the equivalent of the mortality effect of the covid pandemic. when sanctions are imposed on a country like venezuela and cuba, they lead to major economic depression. this is generated a mass exodus of almost 25% of the population and many are trying to make their way to the border and try to enter the united states. we have economically induced migration in both these countries and there is a strong contribution of economic sanctions. in the case of an is where the cover sanctions have targeted the oil industry. the oil industry produces 95% of the currency. if the country cannot sell oil, it cannot import basic goods, food, medicines. living conditions deteriorate

markedly. that is why people want to leave. amy: the biden administration has said it is willing to lift some sanctions against venezuela in exchange for steps taken by nicolas maduro's government. but most of the sanctions that biden inherited from trump remain in place. your response? and talk about how the humanitarian crisis has increased at home as well in venezuela by these sanctions. >> i think that response is basically making vulnerable venezuelans, those who are poor pay the cost of these actions. to say we're going to look sanctions which are hurting venezuelans if maduro takes steps toward democracy, well, maduro is probably not going to take those steps. the people who are going to pay the cost or venezuelans and vulnerable venezuelans. we see huge increases in levels

of now nutrition, or tally -- mortality. you see deteriorations, decline in wages where wages have fallen below five dollars a month. all of this i must stress is driven by a decline in oil revenues. while the paws of the decline in oil revenues -- there are several causes. i'm not saying sanctions are the only ones, but there is research showing actions have a major effect on oil production. [indiscernible] it is clear venezuela does not have the foreign-currency revenues it needs in order to keep its economy working and feed its people.

great part of the responsibility of this lies on u.s. economic sanctions. amy: can you talk about how last year london's high court ruled against venezuela's president maduro in a $1 billion gold battle? what effect does that have? >> it has a significant effect but it is symptomatic of a broader problem, which is that one of the reasons why the venezuelan government has been unable to deal with the pandemic and recession is that it does not have access to its international funds. those funds, far -- not just because of sanctions but because of the decision of the united states and the united kingdom to recognize the government of juan guaido, who claimed he was a legitimate president of venezuela. the u.s. broke completely with diplomatic convention when they did this. typically what governments do is

they recognize the government has to factor control of the territory even if you don't like it because you realize the government needs to engage. he was recognized many dictatorships around the world, recognized the government of north korea, of iran. handing it over control of assets such as the international research of the central bank, which is what venezuela needs to address its economic crisis. venezuela made a proposal to buy vaccines in the midst of the covid crisis but were rejected because the court is trying to clarify whether -- what will be the result of that suit, which is a lawsuit between the central bank board that was appointed by the maduro government and an alternate central bank board that was appointed by the guaido

government. we have a similar problem in the international monetary fund most of did not have access to the funds to fight the covid emergency that were created by the international monetary fund because he has blocked recognition of the government that has control of the territory, which is the maduro government. it has insisted the legitimate government, even though the guaido government has been dissolved, still insisting the maduro government. have access to the resources that the imf or prefer all countries to be able -- u.s. spent 25% of the gdp dylan with the pandemic poster latin america spent less than 5% because it did not have access to the same resources. venezuela spent less than 1% of its gdp because it was unable to tap the resources that the international community had created and allocated to deal with this emergency. amy: we don't have much time

left, but your report not only sections against venezuela and cuba, but syria, and what that meant especially with the earthquake that just hit. >> the result surveyed 32 studies of which [indiscernible] mortality, life expectancy stop in the case of syria, we have seen also various significant negative effect and sanctions have interfered with earthquake relief. earlier in the year, gofundme suspended any attempts -- any account requesting the raising of funds for syria earthquake relief. as a response, a phenomenon known as over compliance. who puts humanitarian exception

in the regulations that it publishes but the reality is the exceptions are so vague and hard to follow that post-international institution so we're not going to take the risk of getting into trouble and we're not going to process transactions for countries like syria. therefore, you see this systematically across-the-board, the humanitarian exceptions are not effective. in the case of iran, you found the medicines were not available in iran in the period of sanctions. out of 73, 70 were in the exceptions list. distill the case no banquet process the transactions -- no bank would process the transactions. amy: francisco rodríguez, thank

you for that very quick analysis of the affect of sanctions from venezuela to syria, venezuelan economist. thank you so much for being with us from the university of denver, speaking to us from aurora. head of the national simply's and financial advisory office under venezuela's late president hugo chavez. his to report for the center for economic policy and research is titled "the human consequences of economic sanctions." coming up pakistan's former prime minister imran khan has been freed after his arrest sparked mass protests and a number of debts. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "tonz o gunz 23" by dereos roads and reasun. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we turn now to pakistan. earlier today, the islamabad high court granted bail for two weeks to former pakistani prime minister imran khan whose arrest earlier this week sparked mass protests.

on tuesday, paramilitary forces arrested khan on corruption charges, but then on thursday, pakistan's supreme court ruled his arrest was invalid and unlawful. khan had served as pakistan's prime minister from 2018 to 2022 when he was ousted from office in what he described as a "u.s.-backed regime change" plot backed by his opposition. he is now blaming the military. supporters of his political party, the pti, say the latest charges are politically motivated and part of a broader campaign to silence khan. in an attempt to quell the protests, pakistan's police issued an emergency order earlier today to ban gatherings in islamabad. pakistan has also suspended mobile broadband and blocked access to social media apps disrupting the lives of millions. meanwhile, human rights groups accused pakistani forces of using excessive force on supporters of imran khan who have taken to the streets in recent days. at least 10 protesters have been killed and nearly 3000 supporters of khan have been

arrested. we are joined now by mohammed hanif. he is an award-winning writer and journalist based in karachi. he is the former editor of the bbc urdu service in london where he is joining us from today. welcome back to democracy now! it is great to have you with us. explain what is happening. why was imran khan arrested and now why was he released? >> they been trying to arrest imran khan for months now. the main focus is elections. it would keep him out of the election race. it would disqualify him or put him behind bars. that seems to be the obvious purpose. he was just thrown out of the government a year ago. since then, he has been on the warpath. that is not new. almost everything a prime minister in pakistan at some

point has fallen out with the army, which is considered the all-powerful pakistan. but what imran khan has managed to do is -- the military itself. people are hoping after they put him behind bars, they can manage to throw away the key and that is where he will stay. but he was there under arrest two days. the chief justice himself called him and said, i'm happy to see you. from lockup, put him into a state guesthouse. asked him to basically invite his friends over and have an easy night's sleep. today, appeared in court and granted bail, so now he is a free man. basically, what imran khan

managed to achieve, which no other politician has i think in the past, he has managed to polarize the establishment's cell. so they don't quite know what to do with him because they put him behind bars. -- there dozens of cases against him. some are flimsy and some are substantial. i think there will probably go after him. amy: he seems to be extremely popular throughout pakistan. can you explain who his supporters are? just give us the overall political landscape, why at this point they arrested him. >> we keep hearing he is extremely popular. the interesting thing is, he is popular amongst people who basically used to be -- every

democracy, there are a chunk of people who hate politics. haters in pakistan who did not like the way things were going. there usually middle-class people. a lot of them, let's of women who are politically disengaged, young people who are not interested in politics, hate the idea of these politicians who have been running the country. these are also the same people who love the army. when imran khan came to power, it was a well-known fact he was groomed by the army, supported by the army. he was a puppet for the army, that everything he did well in power he did because the army told him to do so. but when he was thrown out the

power after a no-confidence vote, he went on a warpath. so all of these people who are supporting him and supporting the army, now they have turned against the army. look at it like a lover's spat. they can be bitter. that is why we saw what we saw with the army commander basically controls lahore and probably more powerful than any politician in lahore, his house was ransacked, set on fire. it was looted. the army is probably just beginning to realize they have created something they cannot control anymore. amy: imran khan described the

coup that replaced him as a u.s.-backed regime change, but then seemed to shift and blend the pakistani military. can you explain the dynamic there? >> fun fact about imran khan, he can say something today and say complete opposite tomorrow and his supporters would still love him. he is a man that because she is contradicting himself. that is not his weakness, that is almost his stand. he says u.s.-backed conspiracy and then changed his mind many times in instead it is pakistani generals who are traitors who betrayed him and betrayed the country. he has called them all kinds of names. we keep hearing, you probably know this better, he has been hiding lobbyists in washington, d.c., toind of smooth things

over with the united states establishment. i don't even know if they are interested or not. but one thing i found a bit scary in the last few weeks is that there is this man who first tried to liberate iraq and afghanistan and we both know what happened there -- amy: was the u.s. ambassador to afghanistan. >> yes. when we hear his name, we hr mass murde basically. he is somebody who has been campaigning on his behalf. no idea if he is a paid lobbyist or looking for another cause, another country to say. citizens say god save pakistan from the likes of him. amy: do you fear a military

takeover in pakistan or or would you say that has already happened? >> i think pakistan is such a big economic mess right now. last month, even now, people are standing in long queues to get flour to make bread. things have been bad for a long time. what a move if they knew they uld handle a country economically. things are as desperate as they can be. they are trying to run things, but it seems they can't anymore. the result of brute force, which they have done in the past. i think we will get into probably a much bigger mess than we are in right now. i think probably the army fears

that, too. i don't think there will be any direct takeover by the army. they will try to do what they have been doing in the past, they will stay on the sidelines and try to run things. but increasingly, it seems they are not able to do what they have been able to do in the past. amy: mohammed hanif, we want to thank you for being with us award-winning writer and , journalist based in karachi. former editor of the bbc urdu service in london. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we end today's show in serbia which is reeling from a pair of mass shootings that left 17 people dead. on may 3, a 13-year-old boy went on a rampage at a school in the capital belgrade, killing eight students and a school guard. it was serbia's fist mass school shooting. the following day, a 21-year-old serbian man shot dead eight

people nearby. the shootings shocked the country and led to quick calls for sweeping gun control measures as serbia's president aleksandar vucic has vowed to completely disarm the country. more than 6000 unregistered guns and weapons have already been turned in after the government announced a month-long amnesty on illegal weapons. nearly 300,000 rounds of ammunition have also been we go now to the serbian journalist ljiljana smajlovic. she is former editor of politika, the oldest daily newspaper in the balkans. also is a columnist for a belegrade political weekly magazine. we welcome you back to democracy now! can you first layout what happened and then the country's response? there is about to be yet another anti-gun mass mobilization in belgrade today.

>> their sense of security has been taken away completely. what they're thinking now is -- this other mass murder happened in safety little suburb of belgrade. they're wondering, can we still play with neighbors and walk home afterwards? there is this shock and surprise . something that is never happened before -- amy: it looks like she is frozen in her skype. last week after 17 people were killed in the two mass, including eight children, tens of thousands of people joined protests against gun violence in belgrade demanding top government officials resign.

this is a protester. >> it is tragic that so many kids killed by their peers were buried in a short period of time. we are already used to what happens in texas, but their weapons are openly purchased. here, where did they get the firearms? it was a disaster. amy: ljiljana smajlovic, if you could respond to what he is saying? we are still having trouble with getting ljiljana smajlovic. this is the serbian president khan speaking last week at a news conference in belgrade after both mass shootings. >> everyone who has a weapon, and that is around 400,000 individuals, not talking about hunting weapons, will have to go to revision and after there will

not be 30,000 to 40,000. we will conduct a diss armament. penalties will be much more severe, almost double. of course even that will not be enough for the small number of weapons that will remain. for hunters who are usually more disciplined and for everyone else, we will conduct biannual and annual exams of gun owners, including medical, psychiatric, psychological evaluations. it will be necessary by the authorities, substance use test will be conducted within 48 hours. amy: let's see if we have ljiljana smajlovic back. if we do, seems like serbia is mobilizing against gun violence much faster than united states. he had two mass shootings. we have on average, at least one a day in the united states. explain what is happening. >> what is happening is we have a political hegemon in power.

he has been in power for 10 years. he has a majority in parliament. he is a hands-on president. he is also the president of the ruling party. so many promises something, when he says he's going to move was something, he moves on it and people know he can deliver. the mass opposition protests that we have had a couple of days ago and are expecting another major protest tonight, these protests are not so much against his measures -- people by a large approved the measures the president has announced. people are surrendering their weapons enmass. just announced 9000 weapons were surrendered, which is more than happened in four previous campaigns of this sort where people were asked to turn in their unregistered weapons and would be no consequences. but there protests are really the protests against this long serving president who is being accused of being a dictator.

and he truly politically is omnipotent. the opposition sees this crisis of people sense of security as a good opportunity to try to dislodge or destabilize the government and extort some political recessions. they want several key people in the government that are known as personal choices of the president to be fired. they want two of the political stations to move -- lose the broadcasting licenses, at least nationally. they have huge demands. to try to win some concessions from a very strong and stable -- otherwise stable government. america you are, to say the least, a global observer. you have seen what has happened in the united states and then you see what is happening in

serbia. how are the mass shootings in the united states perceived from there? and this immediate crackdown on guns, especially illegal guns, on the streets of serbia like we have not seen in the united states ever? >> we are that is deeply polarized -- we used to look at the united states and say, oh, that happens there because they have all of those weapons and they have these open carry and all this. but we also felt that we were better and this kind of thing would not happen here. immediately, there were political accusations. a government minister who is forced to resign said, this is what comes from your so-called western baggage. well, the opposition responded, no, this is what comes from putin-sim, from being pro-.

but by and large, the people approve of restrictive measures and they cannot understand the united states is unable to do anything about their problem. people are saying, ok, this has not been imported from the united states. we are simply part of the big world and these are things that happen in that outer world and some things that are happening in the society have a lot to do with what is happening in other more developed societies, the societies -- aspiring -- amy: ljiljana smajlovic, we are going to have to leave it there. we thank you so much for being with us. serbian journalist joining us from belgrade, serbia, where two mass shootings took place one day after another. one perpetrated by a 13-year-old student who gunned down his classmates and a guard in the

school. that does it for our show. a very happy birthday, erin dooley! democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]