05/15/23 05/15/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> despite all his smear campaign, erdogan did not get the results he wanted. nobody should get excited. amy: turkey appears to be headed for a presidential runoff that could put an end to tayyip erdogan's 20 years in power. we will go to istanbul for the latest. then a ceasefire has been

reached in gaza after israel killed 33 palestinians over a -- over five days. >> the cease-fire is good for us. we can return to life again. we can move in and out and try to make a living from fission without being harassed. amy: the ceasefire in gaza comes as palestinians mark the 75th anniversary of the nakba, the arabic word for "catastrophe," went over 700,000 palestinians fled or were violently expelled from their homes in 1948 when israel was founded. we will speak to two palestinians who have traveled to new york as the united nations officially commemorates the nakba for the first time. we will also talk to peter beinart of jewish currents. >> are powerful forces in this israeli government that would like to bring about another mass expulsion. a whole series of ministers in

the israeli government have talked favorably about an effort to remove large numbers of palestinians from the west bank or even from israel proper. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in turkey, the closely watched election that will determine whether president recep tayyip erdogan will remain in power appears headed to a may 28 runoff as erdogan falls short of the 50% of votes needed to win outright. erdogan's two-decade-long grip on power was challenged by the leading opposition candidate kemal kilicdaroglu, who vowed closer ties with nato and the european union and to reinforce democratic institutions. a third candidate, a right-wing challenger, received about 5% of the vote. the election comes at a time when many turks are grappling with rising living costs and

residents in the south of the country are still reeling from february's tragic earthquakes. we'll go to istanbul after -- for the latest. in another highly anticipated election in thailand, voters decisively rejected the ruling military-backed government which came to power in a 2014 coup, voting in large numbers for the youth-led reformist opposition move forward party and the populist pheu thai party controlled by the billionaire shinawatra family. the two parties have agreed to form a coalition with other groups, though they'll have to contend with rules established by the military which gives the junta significant power. this is move forward leader pita limjaroenrat. >> the sentiment of the era has changed and it was the right timing that people have been through enough of loss in the past decade. today is a new day.

amy: move forward has vowed to reform thailand's lèse-majesté laws, which saw people arrested and jailed for insulting the monarchy following mass youth-led protests in 2020 calling for reforms to the royal system. ukraine's has at least four people were killed today in a hospital was hit in a russian missile attack in the donetsk city. this comes as ukraine's military said it has made advances in the devastated eastern city of bakhmut. pushed back russian forces, the russia still retains control of the majority of the area. earlier today, russia said two senior military officers were killed in the eastern donetsk region. over the weekend, "the washington post" reported recently leaked u.s. intelligence show the head of the russian mercenary wagner group yevgeniy prigozhin offered in january to give ukraine's military the location of russian troops to attack if it pulled back ukrainian forces from bakhmut.

meanwhile, the ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is in the u.k., where the british government pledged long-range attack drones for kyiv's fight against russia's invasion. the visit comes as part of a whirlwind european tour over the weekend where zelenskyy met with pope francis at the vatican and italian leaders in rome, followed by stops in germany -- which pledged nearly $3 billion in new military aid -- and france, which promised more armored tanks. the israeli army and the palestinian islamic jihad group in gaza agreed to an egyptian-brokered ceasefire saturday after five days of fighting in which at least 33 palestinians, including children, were killed. one israeli was killed. many gazans are facing the loss or destruction of their homes after israel's air raid campaign, as well as the trauma of the attacks. this is a young girl in gaza. >> childhood -- i used to have fun, study, and play here.

we lived the most beautiful days of my life here. when they destroyed it, we do not know where to go. amy: in the occupied west bank, three palestinians were reported killed during israeli raids in or near nablus in recent days. this all comes as palestinians mark the 75th anniversary of the nakba, when hundreds of thousands of palestinians were forcibly expelled from their homes before and during the formation of the state of israel in 1948. in burma, at least six people were reported dead after a powerful cyclone made landfall on sunday. cyclone mocha is one of the most powerful storms to hit the region. several hundred rohingya refugee shelters were torn apart, while the capital of the northwestern rakhine state was almost completely destroyed. power and communication lines have been disrupted, with aid workers struggling to reach areas in need. the cyclone also triggered massive floods and landslides in neighboring bangladesh. in kenya, the death toll from

the starvation cult good news international church has risen to 201, many of them children. the apocalyptic cult's leader paul mackenzie is accused of ordering his followers to starve themselves and their children to death. a commission is investigating whether oversight by administrative or intelligence authorities played any role. in guatemala, the prominent investigative newspaper el periódico is closing after months of intensifying harassment and persecution from the right-wing government of president alejandro giammattei. founder josé rubén zamora remains in detention after nearly one year, accused of money laundering and other charges that human rights and press freedom groups have denounced as political retaliation over exposés of government corruption. zamora's trial began earlier this month. meanwhile, several of el periódico's journalists and columnists are also being investigated by guatemalan authorities. the newspaper laid off most of its staff and shut down its print edition in november.

in immigration news, government officials confirmed friday a 17-year-old unaccompanied migrant teen died at a u.s. health and human services facility in florida earlier this month. ángel eduardo maradiaga espinoza, who was from honduras, was found unconscious and later pronounced dead at a local hospital. the honduran government is demanding an investigation into his death. meanwhile, the teen's mother says she's received no information about the cause of death. espinoza reportedly had epilepsy. cbs news reports this is the second death of an unaccompanied migrant child under the biden administration. a four-year-old child from honduras died in march in the custody of hhs after being hospitalized for cardiac arrest. that death was not previously reported by government officials. alabama republican senator tommy tuberville has come under fire for comments defending white nationalists and the pentagon's efforts to rid them from its ranks. he made the comments last week while talking to npr's alabama-based station wbhm.

>> you mentioned the biden administration trying to prevent white nationalists from being in the military. do you believe they should allow white nationalists in the military? >> well, they call them that. i call them americans. amy: tuberville and his team have since unsuccessfully tried to walk back the comments. tuberville told nbc's julie tsirkin, "i look at a white nationalist as a trump republican." tuberville was already under fire for holding up military nominees over a pentagon policy which covers paid leave for employees who have to travel out-of-state to get an abortion. tuberville also said the fact that a jury found donald trump liable for the sexual abuse of e. jean carroll "makes me want to vote for him twice." in related news, "the washington post" is reporting suspected pentagon leaker jack teixeira was obsessed with guns and was preparing for a race war.

videos and chat logs show the 21-year-old national guard member viewed black people, liberals, jews, and lgbt people as enemies and threats he may have to fight. in buffalo, new york, community members and loved ones gathered to commemorate the victims of last year's massacre at tops supermarket in which a white supremacist shot dead 10 black people. governor kathy hochul, attorney general letitia james, and senator chuck schumer attended the one-year remembrance. north carolina's democratic governor roy cooper vetoed a republican-led bill banning nearly all abortions after 12 weeks, setting up a likely override vote. republicans have a supermajority in the north carolina legislature, but it would only take one defector to keep the veto in place. governor cooper signed the veto at an abortion rights rally in raleigh saturday. which 2000 people attended.

this is reproductive rights advocate janice robinson speaking. >> we do not appreciate what the republicans have done in trying to take away our rights, passing this monster bill that is good to make it so much harder for women to have access to abortion care. if the legislatures do not sustain this veto, we will definitely make sure their people elected that are about protecting women's rights when it comes to the election of 2024. amy: in texas, a woman was shot dead by her boyfriend after she returned from traveling to colorado to get an abortion, where the procedure remains legal. abortions are banned in texas. police say harold thompson, who has been arrested and charged with murdering 26-year-old gabriella gonzalez, did not want her to terminate her pregnancy. florida's education officials blocked dozens of text books and forced publishers to edit dozens of others to remove information on racial and social justice issues.

this comes as part of republican governor ron desantis ongoing campaign criminalizing the teaching of critical race theory, lgbtq topics, and other issues he described as woke indoctrination. one middle school textbook no longer includes a section on the black lives matter movement and the police murder of george floyd. meanwhile, desantis has signed into law a bill that will allow healthcare providers and insurers to deny patient care on the basis of religious or moral beliefs. human rights advocates say the legislation will lead to more discrimination against lgbtq people. in san francisco, the transgender community and loved ones of slain activist banko brown are calling for justice for the late 24-year-old black trans man. brown was shot dead outside a walgreens by a security guard in after he allegedly tried to april steal snacks from the store. the shooter has not been charged. banko brown's loved ones say he suffered from food and housing insecurity in a city known for its vast inequalities.

and here in new york, daniel penny, the ex-marine who choked beloved street performer jordan neely to death while on the subway, was arraigned friday on a charge of second-degree manslaughter and freed pending trial. neely's family blasted the charge as overly lenient for the unprovoked killing in which penny used a technique known to be lethal. before he was killed, jordan neely was crying out that he was hungry and thirsty and have been may suffering a mental health crisis. this is donte mills, an attorney for the neely family. >> no one on that train asked jordan, what's wrong? how can i help you? he was choked to death instead. so for everybody saying, i've been on the train and i had been afraid before and i can't tell you what i would have done in that situation, i am going to tell you, ask how you can help. please. don't attack. don't choke. don't kill.

don't take someone's life. don't take someone's love go on from them because they are in a bad place. amy: jordan neely's funeral is scheduled for friday in harlem. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, turkey appears to be headed for a runoff that could put an end to erdogan's power. back in a moment. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. turkey's presidential election appears to be headed to a runoff. preliminary results show turkish president recep tayyip erdogan received 49.4% of the vote. his main challenger kemal kilicdaroglu received just under 45%. the two candidates will likely face each other in a runoff

on may 28. kilicdaroglu campaigned on a vow to end what he called erdogan's authoritarian rule. erdogan has been in power for 20 years, first as prime minister and then as president. on sunday, erdogan spoke to a crowd outside his ak party's headquarters in ankara. >> if the decision of our nation shows the elections have been completed, then there is no problem. elections for the lawmakers and the gray nationalists -- currently our lines dominates almost all commissions, therefore we do not doubt the choice of our nation, which gave a majority in the part of our alliance will be in favor of trust and stability in the presidential election. amy: earlier today erdogan's , challenger kemal kilicdaroglu said would he prevail in the runoff.

>> despite all his smear campaign and insults, erdogan did not get the results he expected. nobody should get excited. elections are not won on the balcony. if our nation decides on a runoff, it is our pleasure. we will win this election in the second round. everyone will see it. amy: for more, we go now to istanbul, where we are joined by kaya genç, an award-winning turkish essayist and historian. he is the author of several books, including most recently, "the lion and the nightingale: a journey through modern turkey." he has covered the turkish elections for the london review of books and his recent article for the nation is headlined "the political aftershock of turkey's devastating earthquake." welcome to democracy now! can you start off i talking about the significance of this runoff and that it is likely going to runoff on may 28?

>> this was a total shock because we were expecting a clear opposition victory. all of the polls were pointing to that direction. so we were preparing to write political obituary of recep tayyip erdogan. but he made a stunning comeback and that was a total blow for people in istanbul. istanbul voted predominantly for the opposition but when you look at the whole country, the whole ballot opens, now it seems like we have been mistaken in the polls and erdogan has a five-point lead and the turks candidate in the presidential race is also a ripening figure who supporters are more likely to support erdogan. so if he gets that 5% as well, it will be an easy, comfortable

win for erdogan for the next election. but this was a total shock for the turkish establishment because for months, erdogan was never sticking optimistically about the election results. he was his usual self, bombastic rhetoric, nationalism. but he never said, we are going to win definitely. this is what the opposition said. the opposition was very certain that this was the end of erdogan , that we were getting rid of him in the first round. so yesterday, there was a huge disappointment and supporters of the opposition felt a little betrayed. because after hours when the first results came, the opposition leaders were nowhere to be seen. he made brief appearances during the night.

but brief appearances that gave no hope to the voters whatsoever. so this morning, woke up to very frustrated city. people feel betrayed and fooled by the posters. i don't know if the opposition will get enough energy to prepare for the runoff in two weeks. amy: tell us about who the opposition leader is, kemal kilicdaroglu. talk about he himself and also the movement came together to try to defeat erdogan. >> sure. kemal kilicdaroglu is a well mannered, softly spoken, grandfatherly figure. he speaks in a very civilized way. he never gets angry.

he is very calculating. he seems a very civilized man. he is the leader of chp, the republican people's party, which is the founder of modern turkey, a century old party. and so kemal kilicdaroglu played the role of a mediator, the middleman. he said, we're going to change the direction of the chp. we are going to make peace with the religious people, we are to make peace with the kurds. we're going to get the support of the nationalist's. we are going to be the center piece of the movement. diligently and for months. he went to a meeting. he convinced five other opposition parties to form an alliance and he called the national alliance. and then he also supports -- he

also received the support of the kurds in the far left and the environmentalists. so at the one hand, we have kemal kilicdaroglu as the candidate always sang the right things, say nothing politically incorrect. then we have erdogan and his coalition, which was a far right coalition. we have to be honest, the winner of yesterday's vote was the far right in turkey. these are different shades of far right. one party, which is a very religious party, and another one, a kurdish police party. we thought kemal kilicdaroglu, a

biden, like figure, a bit boring, but a peacemaker, would still devote from the extremities of the politics. we were badly mistaken. this was a huge win for the extremist movement. the people -- the opposition candidate, kemal kilicdaroglu, announced his bid in march, some people said this man will never do the job. he will not win because we need someone as tall and angry and rabble rousing as erdogan to beat him. but the opposition party, the chp, said, no, this is the man. and now i think the people who opposed kemal kilicdaroglu's candidacy maybe in two weeks will say, we were proven right.

we need someone a bit more like erdogan to beat erdogan. now the opposition, unfortunately, will spend the next few weeks i think debating this issue. did we pick the right candidate? what did we do right? what do we do wrong? of course, this will help little to win the second round. a frustrating two weeks for the opposition. and erdogan now has the fullw inds of the turkish political system in his sales and he made a speech yesterday, he made it clear this is a definite win for him but he fell short of announcing a victory in the first rounds so he played his cards right. three years ago in the marrow

election in istanbul, the candidate that he picked for istanbul rushed to the cameras and said "we won" in the first round and then the opposition candidate, the mayoral candidate for istanbul won a few hours later. so erdogan did not make this mistake. he did not rush things. he seems confident he will win in the second round. so the problem is, kemal kilicdaroglu was 100% confident that he would win in the first round and how will he be able to explain to the voters that he made the miscalculation and that he can win certainly, clearly, definitely in the second round? amy: given his authoritarian rule, erdogan, the enormous power he is in over 20 years, do you believe the results of the election? and talk about the crisis of the economy in turkey, not to

mention the devastation of the earthquakes in february and how that affected people and how people in turkey are feeling right now. >> yes, so these two questions are related. erdogan has a huge control of the turkish media. so if you look at cnn's turkish addition, it is 24 hours erdogan propaganda. if you look at most mainstream channels, erdogan propaganda. he has authoritarian control over the turkish media. you look at all the different channels, it is all about erdogan's rhetoric. what is his rhetoric? so far for the past two months? it was the opposition party are organized, curated if you will, by joe biden, by the u.s.

imperialist system. so he used this rhetoric and he said any votes for the chp, the founder of the turkish republic, was a vote for joe biden. so he used, honestly, eccentric rhetoric very carefully. thanks to his authoritarian control over the media, when opposition candidates were attacked jane the campaigning, different cities -- all of these tv channels were saying, these are organized attacks, the opposition party found themselves -- these are dramas, scenarios implement a by biden, by the pentagon. and when turkish tv channels interviewed people on the streets, people were saying exactly the same thing. so this was an incredible example of how media could form

public opinion in turkey. as i have been signed, it is more than 85% of turkish media under erdogan's control. they manage the whole discourse very well. to the second question, the economy question. the earthquakes, more than 50,000 people in syria and turkey, more than $100 billion, turkey was already in deep trouble. turkey was really in a very difficult position. erdogan said, using his incredible media dominance, that we are the builders, they are there critics. we are the talkers and the builders and we will use this huge crisis as a great chance to

rebuild turkey. so he started using the rebuild rhetoric. and he said, who has built stuff for you throughout the 20th century, the turkish right-wing party did. and who is the turkish right-wing legacy now? it is me, my coalition partners. trust us, we are the builders. we will rebuild those houses. we will not do that for free. we will give you credits, which will help you pay for your new houses. of course, those houses were destroyed because of the irregularities in the whole construction system. erdogan took no responsibility whatsoever. he said, those buildings are gone. drink lots of cold water.

, back to me. vote for me and let's play this whole game again. i was listening to lots of supporters of erdogan and the earthquake hit cities, 11 of them, and people were saying the opposition promises to build housing for us for free. but there's no free lunch. we don't believe them. we trust erdogan because in a capitalist system, we will have to pay for this. so it is a very strange scenario where the people most violently affected by the earthquake, most passionately supporting the government. that was responsible for the toll, i think. but they were saying, we want new houses. your the one who can deliver. so erdogan's messages, the

answer to this crisis, this example of crisis capitalism would help us rebuild this country, will help live in the economy. the way out of this crisis is rebuilding these 11 cities. that is the message he tried to sell and that is the message he sold much to our dismay. amy: kaya genç, thank you for being with us award-winning , turkish essayist and historian. author of several books, including most recently, "the lion and the nightingale: a journey through modern turkey." he covered the turkish elections for the lender review. we will link your article for the nation "the political aftershock of turkey's devastating earthquake." i cease-fire has been reached in gaza. it comes as palestinians mark

the 75th anniversary of what they call the nakba, the arabic word for catastrophe, went over 7000 -- 700,000 were violently expelled from their homes in 1948. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we turn now to the occupied palestinian territories. on saturday, the israeli army and the militant group islamic jihad agreed to egyptian-brokered ceasefire following five days of fighting in gaza which has been under an israeli blockade for the past 16 years. prior to the ceasefire, israeli forces killed 33 palestinians in gaza, including women and children, and at least 147 palestinians were injured. meanwhile, palestinian militants over 1000 rockets into israel

killing two people -- an israeli woman and a pastinian man from gaza working in israel. the latest violee began on tuesday when israel broke a previous ceasefire. this all comes as palestinians across the globe are marking the 75th anniversary today of the nakba, the arabic word for "catastrophe," when some 700,000 palestinians fled or were violently expelled from their homes in 1948 when israel was founded. for the first time, the united nations is holding a high-level special meeting to commemorate the nakba. meanwhile, in washington, d.c., democratic congressmember rashida tlaib introduced a resolution last week to recognize what she calls the ongoing nakba and the rights of palestinian refugees. we are joined by three guests. peter beinart is editor-at-large

of jewish currents. his recent piece is headlined, "could israel carry out another nakba?" he's a professor of journalism and political science at the newmark graduate school of journalism at the city university of new york. also with us, saleh hijazi is part of the palestinian boycott national committee. he is the former deputy regional director for the middle east at amnesty international. he was a key researcher on the report "israel's apartheid against palestinians." he is visiting new york from ramallah. munir nuseibah, human rights lawyer and professor at al-quds university in jerusalem where he founded the human rights clinic. he is visiting new york. we welcome you all to democracy now! i want to start with nuseibah. if you can talk about the egyptian-brokered cease-fire and what this violence of the last

weeks has meant. >> the violence is the unfortunate continuation of impunity. over the past few decades, since the nakba until the current day, israel has been able to sustain an apartheid regime in palestine and close gaza in a siege, prevent people from moving, but also keep the occupation running , keep the displacement and the demolition and ongoing that you mentioned earlier in your introduction. and at the same time, continue with a policy of assassination, of arbitrary prison meant -- imprisonment.

all of these elements have continued causing these small armed conflicts that happen every now and then. but the problem is that with no punishment for those who perpetrate war crimes and crimes against humanity, we can only expect these events to continue and to come back again and again and again. yes, every time there is an escalation like this one, there would be intervention from neighboring countries likegypt to stop this type of military conflict. however, the main problems remain. gaza is still under siege and collective punishment of every person who lives in and every person who also lives outside and once to visit gaza, the west

bank still occupied, the israeli regime is applying apartheid in all of the territory. so unfortunately, while i can say we're comfortable and happy that the military action has stopped, i would say this might come back in the future as long as there are no fundamental -- for the current situation. amy: in 2018 i interviewed mahmoud salah a nakba survivor who was forced out of his home village of sar'a in 1948. at the time he spoke to us, he was he was 86 years old. he was born in a village just outside jerusalem that was bombed and invaded when he was a teenager in 1948. he described how his family sought refuge in what's now the west bank. he slept in caves, under trees, moving from refugee camp to

refugee camp before the u.n. eventually sent him on a ship to south america, to venezuela. then he went to colombia. i spoke to him in chicago, where he lived and i asked him what that word "nakba" arabic for "catastrophe" means to him. >> it is a disaster of my heart. a deserter of my family, a deserter of my soul, of my country. the nakba, it is the history of my country, my grandfather, grandmother, the disaster of my even faith, my religion, my school. it is a very strange word.

it is still in my heart and i give it to my sons. i give it to my -- everybody i know from my family. amy: saleh hijazi, if you could talk about the significance today, the first time the united nations will the not by. and talk about your previous work. they talked about israel as an apartheid state. >> actually, both the u.n. commemorating the nakba for the first time and amnesty international recognizing the regime that israel imposes on palestinians is that of apartheid, regina treats palestinians as an inferior racial group and opposes the system of oppression and domination on them with the

intention of creating a jewish state. both these are coming to recognize what palestinians have been saying for many, many years. it is a recognition of the palestinian narrative that in 1948, we were victims of a planned ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population in palestine and that event in 1948 continues until today. that we are still facing the same displacement, systematic killing. you are mentioning gaza. this is the sixth attack of such gravity against gaza since the criminal blockade that was imposed on the gaza strip since 2007. last year according to the u.n., over the last 12 months we have

seen the sharpest rise in the killing of palestinians in the occupied west bank, including many children. these are all symptoms of this system, oppression and domination, forced displacement. they are late but they are very welcome. the record -- recognition is not enough. what we need is to tackle the root causes of what is happening. we need a dismantling of the system of oppression and domination. the u.n. has a responsibility. it has committed itself to addressing the question of palestine but italy does that in a kind of partial way, humanitarian way. we need the political addressing in palestine. we need the dismantling of zionist colonialism and apartheid. it starts with ending complicity when it comes to states,

institutions, corporations. to isolate -- very similar to what happened in southern africa when the world stood up to the apartheid regime's that were there. isolated its regimes, imported boycotts and sanctions against them. this is what we want the world to do. we want the u.n. to go down the route of action and we want individual states to also end their complicity with the system of oppression and domination. amy: palestinian-american congressmember rashida tlaib, who represents detroit, recently introduced a resolution to recognize the nakba. the resolution reads -- "the nakba is not only a historical event, but also an ongoing process characterized by israel's separate-and-unequal

laws and policies toward palestinians, including the destruction of palestinian homes, the construction and expansion of illegal settlements, and israel's confinement of palestinians to ever-shrinking areas of land." house speaker kevin mccarthy attempted to quash a planned event by tlaib commemorating the nakba by preventing it from going ahead in the u.s. capitol. instead, she hosted the event in a packed senate committee room filled with palestinian rights supporters. the group democratic majority for israel tweeted in response -- "the root of the catastrophe: the arab world refused to accept the u.n. plan for a jewish and arab state in what was left of the u.k.'s palestine mandate after jordan's creation. instead, five arab armies invaded israel, attempting to destroy it and push the jews into the mediterranean sea." i what it to bring peter beinart into this conversation.

peter is editor at-large of jewish currents. you recently wrote a piece "could israel carry out another nakba?" could you talk about what you suggest in your piece where you say expulsion us sentiment is, in israeli society and politics, to ignore the warning signs is to advocate. >> it is progress and owes a great deal to the vigor of rashida tlaib who's a politician a longtime who is willing to make an effort to get this commemorated. it requires people like kevin mccarthy and groups like democratic majority of his road have to argue back.

in the past, they did not even need to do. she found in a barn ally in sanders who allowed her to use their group in the senate. the problem with trying to blame palestinians for their own expulsion and claim was only result of arab armies attacking israel is first of all is significant number of the roughly 760,000 palestinians who were expelled or fled in fear between 1947-1989 did so before the arab armies attacked, before israel declared independence in may 1948. and also because these expulsions did not end when the war ended. if you were to read israeli historians talked about how they continued the expulsion on a smaller scale through the 1950's, then israel expelled a large number palestinians again in 1967. the point of my essay is while there has been fluctuation in the [indiscernible]

this has been a continuous process to israel's creation because palestinians happen a problem for israel. in the basic guiding notion in israeli politics has been you want to control as much land as possible with as few palestinians as possible. what may be different and worrying about this moment is you have a critical mass of people in this israeli government who were on the record as suggesting they would like to find some way of convincing or coercing large numbers of palestinians to legal west bank -- to leave the west bank. reading essentially the palestinian should be given a choice whether to accept living under israeli control that basic rights or to leave. being devere has spoken in these terms. as some of the --

[indiscernible] all have essentially suggested ironically they don't deny the nakba took place in 1948, they say it may indeed happen again. israel feels utter impunity. it makes it more likely in the west bank that we could get to that terrible moment. amy: you also wrote a piece on your substack titled "is denying the nakba antisemitism?" explain what you mean. >> saint it should be considered -- [indiscernible]

we know deeply that preserving memory is the way you maintain a people. the reason the jewish people have survived in large measure is because we tell the stories of our history and we preserve national memory. so when jewish leaders in israel or the u.s. essentially tell palestinians to forget the nakba , to get over it, they're not making -- that is not a suggestion of peace. that is a proposal of extinction was not because if you tell a people to forget its history, you are inviting it to cease to exist. that is what i find as a jew so disturbing about this continuing nakba denial we continue to see. amy: i what to bring saleh hijazi and professor munir nuseibah back into this conversation. professor nuseibah, as you come

to the u.n. today, what you think needs to happen and the role of the united nations in this? >> the united nations has an important role in creating the nakba, unfortunately. in 1947, the united nations general assembly commended the commission of palestine into states, responding to the political atmosphere that the united kingdom, the colonial power, representing palestine at the time, responding to the atmosphere is created. after that, the nakba happened and israel displaced 80% of the palestinian population that lived in the area that it conquered during that war. these palestinians have become refugees in different refugee camps in west bank and gaza and jordan and egypt and lebanon and

syria and other places around the world. that general assembly has result ready back in 1948 a resolution that palestine refugees should have the right to return. and it has been keeping this resolution and calling for it continuously since then. however, and there been many other resolutions that contributed to calling for different palestinian rights. we have a lot of literature and resolutions from the general assembly. some from the security council. they push for palestinian rights. however, we have not been able to see actual measures taken against israel in order to force israel and to abide by international law and u.n. resolution. so what we expect and what we

hope is that by commemorating the nakba and looking in responding to the work of human rights lawyers and activists but also the u.n. special rep. jordan: -- special reporter, the u.n. start taking measures that can be translated into policies taken both by the u.n. but also individual states. this has been missing. the u.n. has also been involved in this never-ending so-called peace process that started back in -- and the early 1990's. unfortunately, this peace process is just serving as a job for everyone. everyone is saying, there's a peace process happening now, we don't need to do any

intervention, let's invite all of the parties to sit at the table. the parties have set at the table for long periods of time. they have not gotten anywhere. there is a colonial project that is continuing to expand, to build jewish only settlements, to implement an apartheid regime between the jordan river and the mediterranean sea. this needs to end. you cannot convince them to give up supremacy only on the negotiating table. the negotiating tables are not enough for that. what we need is complete actions by the united nations and by member states of the united nations, by the international criminal court -- which has jurisdiction over the west bank, including the gaza strip, which can start acting. we need action. amy: let me ask saleh hijazi.

the israeli minister recently sent a letter to the united nations demanding that francesca albanese, the united nations special rep. jordan: on the occupied palestinian territories, be fired, claiming she continues to spew hatred, anti-semitism, and incite violence. can you talk about how israel continues to challenge the u.n. and its decisions today? >> yes, it is both by using these tactics of accusations of anti-semitism against u.n. mechanisms like the special rappoteur.

it just so against human rights watch, amnesty international when they come out with detailed documentation and legal analysis of the situation of apartheid, which is a crime against humanity -- there is an obligation to tackle. it does so against, for example, palestinian human rights defenders and organizations, accusing them of anti-semitism because of legitimate factual criticism, factually based criticism of israel's policies of systematic human rights violations. or or when it comes to palestinians like us, civil society, also accusations of terrorism that whenever there is criticism of israel, it is

either anti-semitic or supported -- supportive of terrorism. this tactic in my view is no longer working. the united nations at the highest level from the secretary general, including to member states, should stand firm against these tactics. they should stand firm in supporting the mechanisms that are there like the special rep. jordan: -- specialrapportuer. there others that come out exposing israel's human rights violations. it should stand firm with the international criminal court in carrying out this open investigation that has been open for a long time without any kind of movement as opposed to than prosecutor moving quickly when there are evidence produced of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

so i think in response to this, you know, palestine is the litmus test of this international world order of the rule of law, of human rights, of international law. if the world fails palestine by giving into these scare, bullying tactics by israel, then it has failed in many, many other places around the world. if international law does not stand in israel -- palestine, for palestinians, if the crimes of apartheid, systematic human rights violations are allowed to continue without any accountability, then they can continue without any kind of accountability anyway around the world. so i think it is the international community needs to stand for the rights of palestinians but it also, when it does so, it does so stand for

this international order that is rules-based international law world order. amy: peter beinart, you did not always hold the views you have. you have not always been as critical of israel as you are today. we only have 30 seconds, but if you could explain what changed you? >> i think just seeing for myself, like many american jews. i feel a great sense of connection for israeli jews. went -- too late in life, i started to see some realities on the west bank's a palestinian existence, it began a process of me realizing for me someone who believes in democracy and equality under the law and believes in jewish ideals as i understand them, this was something i could not support. amy: peter beinart, thank you

for being with us, editor at large of jewish currents. saleh hijazi, part of the palestinian boycott national committee, formally with amnesty international. and munir nuseibah of al-quds

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