to capture tripoli he lost utility and became a paper government. now it is a feeble tool of political pressure ahead of what could likely be negotiations with the government of national unity in tripoli. adrian: do you agree with what he is saying? >> yes, most of it, except in the sense that it is really very hard to separate from the parliament. the man is quite large inside

the government itself and they are the parliamentarians who voted him head of the military years ago in 2014 or 2015. what i also see is the fact that there is some kind of different approach signified by the removal of fathi bashagha as prime minister. so it is the ball in the core of the people in tripoli.

[indiscernible] a very important point is the fact that he came -- became a liability after he entered the capital over the last months. he ended up chased by military force out of the capital, leaving behind many deaths and quite a large destruction. he became a liability. adrian: why would that be his fault though? the fact that he could not enter tripoli? >> bickley, -- basically, those who support you, they are not necessarily supporting the way

you do it, the steps you take. i am quite sure he consulted very little on the issue for entering the capital in the way he did. because of that many parliamentarians are against him. he is perceived increasingly as not very keen on national reconciliation as we have seen the last few months. both sides are talking in terms of military arrangements at least. it is perceived that fathi bashagha represents a hoax on the eastern part of the country. we should not discount or discredit the allegations of corruption against him.

the whole country is corrupt from top to bottom, that is true. there are serious allegations here. adrian: the whole country is corrupt. the fact that he has been removed from office and is being investigated, it does not have everything to do with the fact that he failed to take control of tripoli. he is one of libya's most influential politicians, a former interior minister. given the whole country is corrupt, what could he have done or is this a trumped up charge? >> i think it is out and draw on some of the very good points that they have made. the reason there was a general national stability government appointed in the east in early 2022 failure of the united

nations process to culminate in elections and 2021. the reason it failed is because all the status quo actors did not want there to be elections. the status quo actors are happy for things to continue as they are. libya is a field door imploded state and each of the regional powers have their own interests. but it was fathi bashagha who defended tripoli in 2021 as the interior minister. that made it seem as though the east is not that biased, the east is bipartisan. this also took fathi bashagha away as a threat. after he failed to enter tripoli in 2022, he is no longer useful.

rather than the victory in defending tripoli that he had on his resume, it is the failure to reenter tripoli on behalf of the east, so they have discarded him. they have gotten rid of him. so now it is nearly impossible to have a unity government and he will be impossible to move to elections. what we heard from our friends in tripoli and in stemple is all correct. this is all part of the parler cream whereby libyan actors make it more complicated for the internationals to ever have an election and the regional powers conspire to make sure there can never be progress. adrian: where does that leave the united nations and its envoy who came up with another initiative to try to hold elections? >> it leads them back at square zero where they have been the whole time. he announced the steering committee in january and he said

it would be going around, then when each of pushback, he said we will have the steering committee as advisory. right now, given what is happening in sudan, egypt and the emirates are the dominant players. their work together in libya to prevent progress. nothing can go ahead without egypt and the emirates. they are the mediators and they do not want to see any progress so we are completely stalled and the united nations and the west has taken their eye off the ball again. adrian: let's go back to the corruption issue for a moment. who is most likely to replace fathi bashagha in the long term? is that person better place to end the crisis in libya?

or given what jason was just saying, it does not lean matter who is in charge -- not really matter who is in charge. >> the reality and i think i have to touch on the two points that made is that the idea that we have a parliament then enjoys credibility, that parliament was elected a decade ago. but also, that parliament will set a fire by protesters last summer. i would said the elements of corruption are certainly true. the government in tripoli is certainly corrupt. but that is not blocking the elections. will blocks the election is the

constitutional basis of those elections. they are central tenants of the united nations roadmap. the parliament in eastern libya has no incentive to hold elections. they are the reason we did not have elections last year. the idea that they have any incentive to be the next custodians of libya's election roadmap when they have actually blocked attempts to hold elections is a joke. we have to drill down on the actors that are blocking actions. it is the two parliaments. the last parliamentary that

enjoyed a relationship with him was assassinated by his forces. that is a continuation of what has been happening. it is the horror of the policies that have been conducted in libya. by its own rules and regulations, they cannot pass any legislation, they cannot pass any actions over the government and tripoli. it is a feeble tool and an instrument of pressure they are trying to use divorce a government in tripoli -- to force a government in tripoli. this is old wine in new bottles. it is part of the same old game. adrian: will this escalate into

full-blown violence again? >> of those who are writing the rules of what is happening over the last eight years, they were shaking hands a few months ago. he still enjoys international relationships with the administration in italy, he hosted william burns, the chief of the cia. all of these discrete relationships give you an idea the kind of platform that individual has. he has gotten away with power grabs in tripoli. that involves a number of different actors that give him at -- diplomatic support, like

the likes of the uae, france, russia, egypt. this is an individual that symbolizes the crimes and international norms in libya, whether it is putting human bodies in ovens, whether it is importing duplicate currencies. whether it is bringing mercenaries from the uae, sudan, russia, you name it, they were there. the rules of the game were eroded a long time ago. it is violence that comes without scrutiny and penalty. it has been repeated so many times and i think they're trying to give diplomate see a chance -- diplomacy a chance.

there will be more dead bodies in tripoli because bad has been the objective of all of the political elite that have been unelected. adrian: fathi bashagha what of his future now? we have power centers in three ways. >> fathi bashagha, being back hawkish -- being that hawkish, this kind of tactic has ended.

it is not time for that. he does not want to see some kind of the hawkish [indiscernible] but what has happened essentially with fathi bashagha, i would term it political suicide for him in the first place to actually accept the idea of coming prime minister. plus the fact he initiated the process of [indiscernible] that was actually what brought him in as a political player.

adrian: jason, i want to explore the issue of the external influences that there are in libya. you mention turkey and egypt. what happens if president erdogan is not reelected in the runoff? how does that change things? >> i was hopeful that president erdogan might by some miracle not be reelected. unfortunately, he is almost certain unless there is another earthquake or new scandal to get over 50% of the runoff. so it is not worth debating too much because that ship has sailed. incumbency and being famous gives you power. this is one of the tenants of the enduring disorder.

it does not matter if your trump or erdogan. if you are one of these populists in the public eye and you said there are more problems and you do not fix them, you just run again on only i can fix them. trump says i will stop mexican migrants, but he never builds the wall. adrian: are you saying here that turkey is a malign influence? >> of course, it is a malign influence throughout the whole region. the turks and the egyptians are the same in this. they said we are really invested and working to fix things, but they are happy for it to just continue because it is a problem on which they can continue to attract domestic support, need

the western players to work with them. we see the enduring disorder in libya. the regional powers have a major influence. they are the dominant players. the u.s. and the u.k. are small players. that is the enduring disorder. adrian: i see you vigorously disagreeing there. >> the actions of the turkish government which they took in late 2019 was a transactional deal between the former libyan government and the turkish administration. it is part of the homeland policy developed by turkeys on

ministry of defense, long-standing policy carved out independently. most libyans would most likely not criticize the intervention taken by turkey. they were being assaulted by russian mercenaries, by drones, so when it came down to the crunch of what happened in 2019, the government on national accord appealed to the united nations and said to section actor that is doing this. they failed to sanction him. they failed to act. they asked turkey to act and turkey was doing what other actors should have done. turkeys intervention defended the last of 2 million of tripoli.

and lead to a stalemate. what i would agree with is that they entered into a status quo with the emergence and pressure and they carved out a stalemate that has plagued the country moving forward. but i would not say turkeys intervention was drummed up by president erdogan or that it was a malign influence. adrian: do you want to reply to that? >> that is correct, of course. when the attack happened in 2014, they wanted to go to the u.k. and to italy and of course they asked to be saved, they asked for help and they were abandoned by their western allies. the turks came in, they invented a new form of drone warfare which was able to defeat the russian antiaircraft batteries

and they saved tripoli and the libyan people will be forever grateful for that. and i am grateful for that. there are now turkish interests in the oil trading sphere. the russians are doing certain things and then varieties work now -- and the emirates have soured on them. the point is the turks had that great role to save tripoli, but now they are just a status quo actor to produce a global enduring disorder. none of these regional powers have a vision for libya. they do not have a vision for the region other than for it to be destabilized so that they can stay in power. adrian: we have been talking about the two administrations in

the east and the west. the armed militias is another factor. you have to disarm those militias are going to greet them somehow into society. will that ever be done? -- integrate them somehow into society. will that ever be done? >> that is not a party on either side, the west or the east. the same goes for the international actors. what we have seen, some kind of trend over the last few years, starting the last year of his

government, most of the talks, militias are gaining legitimacy if you like by being somehow seemingly integrated into serious government organizations like we have seen in tripoli here. the same goes for the eastern part of libya, the same thing. the idea -- there is also a tricky thing here proposed by the united nations at the time that the mercenaries for example who are the backbone of supporting either side when there is a war, including the malicious, -- the militias, when those countries are stable enough to receive them and this condition has been repeated

recently. that means they will never go back because those countries are a good example and they will never actually be stable. the idea of integrating those armed militias into serious government entities is very unlikely in the foreseeable future. adrian: i am afraid we must leave it there. thank you very much indeed for being with us on inside story. as always, thanks to you for watching. you can see the program any time by visiting the website at aljazeera.com. for further discussion, join us on our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. thanks for being with us.

man: for me, "sweet land" is a dream. [singers vocalizing] in dreams, you don't actually move. you're in one place, and the world bends and shifts around you and comes at you. [orchestra playing] there's ideas that create more questions than answers. woman: ♪ what is this place? ♪ second woman: ♪ the lord bless you ♪ third woman: ♪ and to keep you ♪ fourth woman: most people wouldn't think that you can have these kinds of conversations in an opera. chorus: ♪ we'll always make a place for you