imran: finding concrete solutions to a problem continent wide. eu states are learning how to deal with the of thousands of people. among all 27 members won't be but finding consensusamong all 27 members won't be easy. what are the challenges? and can they reach a balance that works for those making the often-hazardous journey to europe? this is inside story. imran: welcome to the program.

i am imran khan. ministers from the eu states have come together to deal with rising migration. in 2015, europe attempted to find a lasting solution to the millions of people crowding at its borders because of the civil war in syria. a problem left unresolved led turkey to relax its borders, opening the gates onto europe's doorstep. fast forward eight years and the number of refugees and migrants heading to europe is rising rapidly. so far this year, nearly 55 1000 migrants had made their way to the continent. 90% came by sea. more than 1200 block will died on the journey or one missing. francis trying to reduce migration numbers and jeremy is welcome and migrants, 1.3

million last year alone. the german institute for economic research says immigration to the eu has increased its gdp by more than 1% each year. i want to remind our viewers that there are distinct differences in terminology. when we refer to refugees, we are talking about someone who has been forced to flee their country due to persecution, war violence. and asylum seekers does not fit the strict guidelines by has required -- applied for protection and is awaiting an outcome from immigration officials. the term migrant fits who has chosen to leave their country and search for a better life. for more, i by our guests.

ferdinando nelli feroci, president of the institute of international affairs and european commissioner in 2014. leila bodeux, senior policy and advocacy officer at caritas europa. a warm welcome to you all. i will to begin in sarajevo. the iom is the frontline agency when it comes to migration globally. the 27 member states are trying to come up with the strategy, but that will be difficult to make everybody happy. are you of the opinion that an agreement can be reached? >> we are hopeful and we certainly welcome the progress and the commitment to regional cooperation and responsibility

sharing. and we know that the only way countries are going to derive the benefits of migration and mitigate the risks of irregular migration is with a regional path for cooperation. we remain hopeful. imran: do you remain hopeful that we can get to an agreement? >> i would like to be optimistic. the problem of migration is very controversial, very politically sensitive if most if not all european countries. to find the right balance between that has proven rather difficult.

there was a decision to be made on the package of measures meant to revise regulation on how to deal with asylum seekers in europe. so far, it has been difficult to find an agreement. hopefully an agreement will be found based on the idea of more responsibility sharing among the member states. imran: you are a frontline agency dealing with many people coming into europe. what would you like to see? >> we do not want to have an agreement at all costs or at the cost of the rights of migrants and refugees. we need to have more solidarity among the member states, but we

also have to have better conditions to welcome refugees with dignity. we fear the agreement that might come out tonight will increase border procedures in substandard conditions and will also increase the attention of people, including children, at the border. this is a very boring development. imran: this could well be an agreement at all costs. if there is going to be an agreement, it is going to be something that will not make every country happy. germany is looking to increase migration. italy and france are trying to reduce it. what does an agreement look like for you that allows you to be able to do your work? >> upholding, protecting and fulfilling the human rights of migrants, refugees and asylum

seekers is particularly important. it is necessary that the agreement protects this in the way he handles irregular migration. but let us also keep in mind that human civilization has been shook by migration. migration is best solution for continued development in the region to address critical labor shortages that countries have and that even with compromises, this can only be successfully achieved and solutions derived through regional cooperation, through solidarity. so we hope and with reference to the global compact with safe and regular migration, that all

components of the comprehensive approach to migration make it into the agreement. imran: the more a sensible approach -- when it comes to domestic politics, the conversation is very rarely sensible. emotions run high, right wing politicians use it to gain popularity. is there a sensible conversation to be had in places like rome, in the united kingdom, in france , in germany about migration? >> so far, emotions have prevailed. in many locations,

[indiscernible] the paradox is that we need migrants, particularly in countries of european countries like italy, we definitely need migrant workers. at the same time, we need to organize migration so that we do not have to face irregular migrants coming along our coast. the ideal solution would be planning of migratory flow in a cooperative fashion among countries of origin and countries of destination. the so far has not proven possible unfortunately.

i hope in some states we will reach that stage because we need migration, but we need regular migration. imran: does that kind of language scare you? we need migration in an regular manner? does that make you think about shore processing centers? does that make you worry? >> yes, we are worried that there is a lot of focus on return and preventing people from arriving to you territory. -- eu territory. we want to have safe and regular pathways.

the problem we have today is that many people are forced to take on a dangerous journey and are dying too every year. in 2023 more than 1000 people died in the mediterranean sea because of the lack of safe access to europe. this is a big concern. imran: 1000 people have died at sea as our guest pointed out, but that is not changing anybody's minds. in the united kingdom, there is a hard-line attitude when it comes to the boats as they call them. this is happening in italy as well. your fighting an uphill battle. what is the strategy for you guys? >> i want to go back to the word you used before, which is

sensible. what we have seen is not. people take irregular roots, they take risk when they do not have options. regular pathways for labor mobility provides those options. in fact, iom continues to receive requests from countries on how to expand regular pathways. how to give people options for how to migrate in order to reduce irregular movements, to reduce smuggling, to reduce trafficking. they are also very focused on returns and countries do need a way to return people who have gone through the process and are no longer entitled to stay in the country. but it cannot be a single,

letting their approach. it needs to be comprehensive because you are not going to get to achieve in the full benefits of migration only focus on returns when at the same time you need migrants for the economy to grow. let us also recognize that for the countries of origin, with remittances, bases the key driver for development in the countries of origin. it is also the key drivers for economic growth in the countries of destination. so it is a sensible conversation about how we have these win-win solutions that also ensure the best outcomes for the migrants themselves. imran: would you agree that the current process of migrating

into europe is phenomenally complicated, it is very expensive and often the people that needed the most are often bamboozled by the amount of paperwork they have to do. but is there a way that europe will streamline that process? >> it is not easy. [indiscernible] i know it is not easy to distinguish between [indiscernible] but i think we need to keep this

distinction in mind if you want to be effective in managing so that it is not distorting political agendas. on the one hand, countries in europe should be able to control [indiscernible] countries in europe need more people from outside europe. the only problem is that to manage this in a manner that is consistent with our

accountability of integrating those persons. imran: we are looking at a conversation that is taking place within the european union. thanks to have to change. if you are in this meeting and they said to you, we are going to put more procedures in place, but we are going to limit migration significantly. would that be good enough for you, or is that something you cannot compromise on? >> no, of course, but it is an international legal obligation to grant protection. you have more than 100 million people that live possibly displaced. we should not forget this is an international obligation and that you cannot put it cap on

the number of people that can arrive to a country. if we look at the figures, actually they are manageable. it is a question of political will to put in place funding to welcome people arriving instead of building walls and fences. it is a question of political choice. people can be a bit dispersed across different countries to have more solidarity and responsibility between different

states. i would also want to have reunification rules. imran: we are looking at now an idea that there is an international obligation to asylum seekers in particular, but people are discussing a cap. would that be something you would accept if the immigration system got better? >> for us, i keep emphasizing win-win solutions. they are not going to achieve the labor -- the migrant labor

quantity that they need to drive and support their economic development. cap this probably more a political tool -- eight cap is probably more political tool than a migration tool. we are looking at how to support countries with a range of tools that enable them -- that they can use migration to achieve their development goals, their economic goals, their society needs. so that is what certainly from my organization what the advocacy and priority would be and the technical support that we provide.

imran: right now, 27 member states are trying to come up with the political solution to this issue of migration. we already talked about the fact that we will not get to a one-size-fits-all solution. what if the bottom line for you? what is the solution that works for everybody do you think? >> this is not an easy question to answer. today what has been discussed are two specific measures. to find a compromise between those that would like to see more [indiscernible] and those that are absolutely against any form of redistribution of asylum

seekers. the reason there are two positions might converge in making it impossible to include the measures, which are measures of compromise. i know it is very complicated to find a cap. those countries that do not want to receive asylum seekers should contribute financially. i do not know whether this will be a solution. even if there is an agreement, it only looks at the problem of asylum seekers. it leaves out the issue of how

to deal with economic migrants. this is probably the most [indiscernible] imran: you have made some interesting points. there has to be a framework for all of this. you cannot have people coming in risking their lives to cross the border. but there needs to be a way of doing this that is not emotive. what regulatory framework what you think works that is both fair on people asylum seeking, but that fulfills international obligations? there perhaps needs to be a compromise. >> there are currently asylum a

across the european union, but they are not being probably implemented. -- properly implemented. even if there was no agreement today, there is a framework that we can better implement to the benefit of the rights of the people. regarding framework, it is important to call for more resettlement. to allow people stuck in refugee camps to be able to come illegally to europe and to start a new life. and not be forced to embark on a regular migration. -- irregular migration.

more than 80% of the world's refugees are in developing countries and not in europe. imran: a lot of this began in 2015 when turkey allowed many syrian migrants to enter into europe and then shut those borders as the political will dictate a. this is about an international weight -- way of trying to deal with this. if we get an agreement in the european union, can that lead to an international agreement,

stronger one? >> i would like to subscribe to the observation made months ago that in fact many countries outside europe are supporting the heavy burden in terms of refugees. if you look at syrian refugees, most of them are relocated in turkiye. when we look at europe, we tend to have a eurocentric view of the problem. in order to be able to develop, you can like it or not. whether you are able to develop

an agreement like the one in turkiye, this is something which is not easy because you will need [indiscernible] to impose such a deal, you take refugees into your country and we give you the money to support them. imran: we are running out of time. after listening to everything that he has said, do you still think there is a win-win solution? >> absolutely.

he did make a point about it not being a european issue and bet it is global. i want to remind everyone that we have two global agreements, the global compact on refugees and the global compact on migration, that actually provide comprehensive tools to member states that work for member states and that work for the migrants and refugees themselves. so the tools are there, that evidence is there. what we need is the political commitment. imran: i want to thank all of our guests. i want to thank you as well for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website at aljazeera.com. you can also join the conversation on twitter.

from the whole team here, goodbye for now.