06/23/23 06/23/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> it is with much sadness and sorrow that i think of the victims of the very serious shipwreck off the coast of greece. it seems the sea was calm.

amy: a titanic disparity. how the world responds to maritime disasters. as many as 700 migrants are feared dead in a shipwreck last week off the coast of greece, but the story has received far less attention than the search for five passengers aboard a submersible to view the wreck of the titanic. investigators now say the five died in a catastrophic implosion. then we go to the occupied west bank as tensions soar as jewish settlers attack palestinian villagers and israel launches drone and helicopter gunship attacks. then "the palestine laboratory: how israel exports the technology of occupation around the world." >> the too and technogy that rael is usin whether spyware or intelligence gathering or drones, are increasingly exported around the world down inver 130 cotries acss the

glob amy: we will speak to independent journalist and author antony loewenstein. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president biden welcomed indian prime minister narendra modi to the white house thursday, praising a new era in u.s.-india relations, on modi's second day of a lavish visit to the u.s. that's been condemned by human rights advocates. the two leaders announced a series of new initiatives including a landmark deal for general electric to build military jet engines in india. modi delivered a speech to a joint session of congress and was later feted at a state dinner with the president and first lady jill biden. in a rare occurrence, modi accepted questions from journalists during a news conference with president biden. "wall street journal" reporter sabrina siddiqui, who is muslim,

pressed modi on human rights concerns and asked him what steps he is taking to improve the rights of muslims and other minorities in india and press freedom there. it's believed to be the first question modi took from a journalist at a news conference since 2015. >> we have always proved democracy can deliver. when i say deliver, this is regardless of caste, creed, religion or gender. there isfor discrimination. amy: in sudan, residents began fleeing the southwestern city of kadugli thursday as a new front opened between sudan's army and the rebel group known as the sudan people's liberation movementnorth. sudan's army says fighters with the group broke a long-standing ceasefire agreement this week and attacked sudanese military units. in the capital khartoum, heavy fighting continues between sudan's army and the rival paramilitary rapid support forces. elsewhere, activists say they've identified 500 bodies across the city of el geneina, the capital of sudan's western darfur

region. witnesses say thousands more bodies remain uncollected in the city's streets after paramilitaries and allied arab militias stepped up attacks on non-arab residents of the region. aid workers say tens of thousands of people fleeing the violence for neighboring chad have also faced violence and sexual assault. laura lo castro, the u.n. refugee agency's representative in chad, spoke to refugees who survived the journey. >> they described terrifying scenes in which everyone had to flee for their lives. as they fled, they sometimes unfortunately had to leave behind children who could not run was to people were injured, and the elderly. amy: 145 migrants were discovered in an island in everest river on the great turkish border. the rescue came as shocking details continue to emerge about how greek coast guard officials failed to save hundreds of

migrants who drowned last week after their overcrowded fishing vessel sank off the grease coast. it is reported greek authorities were tracking the ship for more than 12 hours, never activated arrest operation, even after the ship's engine broke down. in the atlantic ocean, rescue crews have called off the multinational, multimillion dollar operation to locate five people aboard the missing titan submersible after debris from the vehicle was discovered thursday near the wreckage of the titanic. engineer said that subs operating failed to account for design failures in the submersible which was never certied to whstand the -- passgers pay $0,000 ea for e advente. this is a 2022 documentary. >> i would like to be remembered as an innovator. i think was general macarthur said, you're remembered for the

rules you break. i have broken some rules to make this. i think i have broken them with logic and good engineering behind me. amy: "the wall street journal" reports that a top secret u.s. navy acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines heard what the u.s. navy suspected was the titan submersible implosion just hours after it began its voyage. in climate news, beijing is suffering its warmest june heat wave on record, with high temperatures in the chinese capital thursday climbing above 41 degrees celsius, or 106 degrees fahrenheit, its hottest june day since records began. in mexico, a searing heat wave has driven record demand for electricity, with reports of blackouts in a dozen states this week. the extreme heat extends into the united states, where parts of texas and other southern states face excessive heat warnings into next week. this comes as smoke from massive wildfires continues to trigger air pollution warnings in canada and parts of the u.s., with

unhealthy air quality forecast for chicago and much of wisconsin today. the union of concerned scientists reports half of the u.s. population has faced an extreme weather alert so far this year. meanwhile, a new study published in the journal "nature sustainability" finds earth's ecosystems are degrading from global heating even more rapidly than previously thought, with 1-in-5 ecosystems, including the amazon rainforest, at risk of passing a crucial tipping point by the end of the century. in mexico, human rights advocates are demanding justice for two environmentalists assassinated in separate attacks in the state of mexico earlier this month. álvaro arvizu and cuauhtémoc márquez were forest and water defenders who fought against extractivism in the region. márquez, who was also a beekeeper, was shot dead near his home on june 12. a day later, arvizu died after being brutally assaulted by a group of unknown assailants with what appeared to be an ax. mexico continues to be one of

the deadliest countries for environmentalists in the world. the government of france has ordered the shutdown of the direct-action environmental group earth uprising, using powers that it previously used to outlaw far-right movements. the order came after the french interior minister accused earth uprising of carrying out eco-terrorism at several recent high-profile protests. the group responded in a statement -- "trying to silence earth uprising is a vain attempt to break the thermometer instead of worrying about the temperature." the crackdown drew criticism from swedish climate activist greta thunberg, who spoke thursday from paris. >> all over the world we are experiencing just the other day in france, activists are being systemically targeted with repression and are paying the price for defending lives and for the right to protest.

amy: greta thunberg was speaking at this week's summit for a new global financial pact in paris, where climate activists are demanding world leaders mobilize trillions of dollars to finance a transition to clean energy and a loss and damage fund to help the global south deal with the worst effects of the climate catastrophe. this is ineza grace, a youth climate activist from rwanda. >> we have reason to see the flooding in italy, the wildfires in canada, but we are being hit the hardest. for countries like mine, business as usual is a death sentence. amy: back in the united states, the supreme court has ruled against the navajo nation over claims the federal government has failed in its duty to address the tribe's water rights. writing for the majority in thursday's 5-to-4 ruling, justice brett kavanaugh ruled the 1868 treaty that established the navajo reservation said

nothing about an affirmative duty for the united states to secure water. the court's three liberal justices joined by neil gorsuch in dissent, writing that the government has a duty to properly manage the water it holds for the tribe. thousands of navajo nation members lack access to running water in their homes even though the colorado river runs along the northwestern border of their reservation. and in new york, immigration advocates have vowed to keep fighting after new york assembly speaker carl heastie refused to hold a vote on legislation that would have allowed undocumented people to enroll in new york's essential plan, government-subsidized health insurance under the federal affordable care act. the coverage for all bill had passed the state senate earlier this month. both chambers are controlled by democrats. nearly half a million new yorkers are currently excluded from medicaid in the essential plan healthcare coverage due to their immigration status. to see our interview with new

york assembly member jessica gonzález-rojas, who sponsored the bill, go to democracynow.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show looking at the titanic disparity in how the world responds to maritime disasters. as many as 700 migrants are feared to have died in a shipwreck last week off the coast of greece, but the story has received far less attention than the search for five passengers aboard a submersible to view the wreck of the titanic. on thursday, search efforts for the submersible ended after investigators found debris from -- near the titanic at the bottom of the sea. it is believed that the five passengers died in a catastrophic implosion. the two vessels were lost at sea, four days and 4000 miles apart. the five men who lost their lives on the titan have been

getting wall-to-wall coverage in the media worldwide. meanwhile, the estimated 700 who died when the adriana sank off the coast of greece, mostly women and children, have been essentially forgotten. passengers on the titan were wealthy. two were billionaires. each paid $250,000 for an adventure of a lifetime, a deep sea dive to view the wreckage of the titanic. those crammed onto the ramshackle adriana fishing boat were seeking not adventure but refuge from war, poverty, climate change, or any of the many other life-threatening crises that force people to flee their homes with little more than the clothes on their back. they paid human traffickers to ferry them from libya to europe. many of the passengers were from pakistan, afghanistan, egypt, syria, and palestine. a multinational effort was

launched to search for the titan submersible. meanwhile, the greek government is facing accusations that it could have saved the migrants aboard the doomed ship but opted not to. the newspaper reports greek authorities were tracking the ship for more than 12 hours and never activated a rescue operation even after the ship's engine broke down. we begin today's show with two guests. giorgos kosmopoulos is a senior migration campaigner for amnesty international. he is joining us from brussels. and in paris, we are joined by laurence bondard, spokesperson and operations communications manager for sos mediterranee. she's been on seven rescue missions in the mediterranean. we welcome you both to democracy now! let's begin with laurence bondard. if you can respond to what took place last week and continues to

take place? and clearly, when we don't know the migrants names, when we don't know their stories like we know those on the titan, it is hard to care. talk about who died last week. >> hi, amy. yes, it is very difficult to relate and to understand what happens in the mediterranean when it is far and when you don't exactly understand what it means to be in the middle of the sea, completely alone, facing with the strength of the elements and having no one to hear your cry of despair and to come and rescue. the people that fully -- flee

and take the risk to die to seek safety our people from very different regions of the world, from the african continent, asian continent, middle east region. these are people as you're describing who are fleeing their original countries for various reasons from war to poverty, different kinds of violence. they end up in libya, trapped in a country where they are facing a harrowing cycle of violence. we hear recounts of people who are abducted, detained in unofficial detention centers. on the phone to make sure the family sells everything they have to have as much money as possible. so the people who take these unseaworthiness that are

critically overcrowded without lifejackets, often without enough food and water, dangerous crossings, people that are in absolute despair. they will take any opportunity to flee. amy: giorgos kosmopoulos, you've said this is a completely avoidable disaster. the newspaper continues to expose what took place off the coast of greece. explain where the migrants were coming from on this overcrowded fishing vessel. what the greek navy new, when they knew it, and why this sunk. we don't know how many hundreds of people in fact have died, but it could be up to 700. >> hi, amy. thank you for having as. indeed, it is a tragedy beyond words and was completed preventable simply because your does not afford safe and legal

routes, pathways for these people to seek safety. that is the result of policies, of european member states who do not prioritize lives. hearing the account of our other guest, i was remember my friend when -- he called me yesterday posted a few years ago, "it could have been me, me and my children." he always talks about how it was a travesty to flee his country. his three children in his arms, telling them night and day it is going to be ok. thinking it is going to be ok even if i have to die. these people have no option. nobody puts their family and themselves in such danger unless they have no other option. the european politicians who now express condolences, did very little to do the right thing. to have a safe and legal route. we also know that greek coast

guard was alerted early on and followed very closely -- a lot of questions to be answered by the greek authorities. why they acted the way they did or why they did not act in the way they should have acted, especially as more information emerges. it was clear the vessel was probably not seaworthy. we need an investigation that is thorough, independent succumbed to the truth. we need to know the truth. we expect for the greek authorities to look after the survivors, make sure the families have access and identify their loved ones, and truth and justice for what has happened. amy: i want to turn to abdelfarid ahmad, the father of 18-year-old syrian migrant mohammad ahmad, who went missing after the shipwreck off greece. he said he doesn't know if his son is dead or alive.

>> frighting that we lost contact with my son. until now, we don't know anything about his whereabouts. the smugglers say they arrived on the other side. until now, there's been no communication. we don't know anything about him, drowned, like, we don't know. if my son had worked, he would not have thought about leaving. if he had peace of mind, he would not have left. amy: giorgos kosmopoulos, if you can talk more about what people know at this point, what they're told, and also talk about your own family coming from the southern coastal town. you have worked in the region as a volunteer. we just past world refugee day. >> is particularly successful -- taxing for me to think this is a region where all my family comes

from. the same beaches where me and my family spend our holidays. it has become a cemetery for refugees and migrants. over 30,000 people that we know of, and possibly the tip of the iceberg, and completely avoidable situations. survivors have been taken to facilities managed by the greek authorities. we understand there has been one investigation opened by the greek authorities into the events. we do not know the exact scope. there has to be a thorough and independent investigation into what happened. i also have to say despite the negative rhetoric by politicians in greece but also across europe, the solidarity is strong. i've seen a lot of people running to help, providing for these people. they have done it again. they did it in 2015. i was there when thousands of

refugees from syria came. ordinary people are there to help. i do think there's a lot more solidarity and it is proven every day and european leaders must follow that lead, follow the legacy of what happened in 2015 in solidarity by those people who saw wait and provide finally safe and legal routes for these people. otherwise, all of the tears and condolences amount to nothing, almost critical. i really hope this is the last time we will be looking for survivors and hear testimonies like the ones we heard before. it is completely avoidable. it is on us to fix it. amy: laurence bondard, i was wondering if you could talk about this program started by the italian government in 2013, over 100,000 people rescued that year. what happened to it?

if you can talk more about how to avoid these tragedies? >> the operation was a european operation conducted by the italian authorities in 2013 and 2014. in less than a year, this european operation, a military and humanitarian operation, also dedicated to search-and-rescue, rescued over 150 thousand people in less than a year. it shows how possible it is, we know how to do european member states know how to do and maritime sectors know how to perform search-and-rescue. it means having people that are trained and equipped and coordinated accurately to

organize searches and then rescue efforts. it happened at that time in this operation that this operation was ended in 2014 due to a lack of european solidarity. the italian authorities asked for european solidarity to ensure this was finance not only by the italian country and that there were people that were rescued that could also be taken care of by the european union in its entirety. with this lack of solidarity, the operation, they decided to end this operation. instead, it was not replaced. only replaced by operations that were military and border defense operations. no european search-and-rescue operation has been put in place since then. this is why we crated our self a citizens eight years ago and other organizing by citizens to

fill the gap left the central mediterranean. specifically in this region between libya and europe that is completely left alone, completely empty of european efficient search-and-rescue efforts. this is why -- the hope i am hearing just now, it is a hope we all share, of course, we hope this will be the end, that it is the last shipwreck at all, last shipwreck of this magnitude. unfortunately, i don't -- i have lost this hope. i can tell you here and now, there will be other shipwrecks. in the days and weeks to come and months to come and most likely in the years to come, there will be other shipwrecks. there will be other tragedies. the only way to stop that, and it is not complicated, is to have this european solidarity in

place, a movement that organizes our european search-and-rescue operation in the mediterranean so there is, again, real coordination, efficient coordination. a means maritime rescue centers coordinate, relay the distress signals, make sure that ships around are able to assist, provide assistance and then embark in a place of safety. we know how to do. maritime world knows how to do. but the political choices, the will to do it, that is the only thing. amy: talking about that well, i want to end with giorgos kosmopoulos in brussels. you have a message to the world's media. this as we call it, titanic disparity and how they cover the five people who died in that submersible, the idea that that should be a model -- blanket

coverage would people die at sea. using that model and multiplying it many, many times over for the number of migrants who have died at sea. the message you have 10 media responsibility -- the message you have to media responsibility? >> i think it is a message for all of us, including media. no matter where they come from, no matter which language they speak, their income, society they come from, we have to mobilize all our resources to help them with no reservations and put human life on the very top of our priorities not only in wars but factions. mors and see, we did what we could do and this is not going to happen again.

we have policies in europe that lead to the shipwrecks. these policies have a direct cause and effect with the shipwrecks we are seeing. yes, we have the resources and the capacity and the technology. it is time to put human lives on the very top of our agenda and efforts in matter where these people come from. amy: giorgos kosmopoulos, senior migration campaigner for amnesty international, speaking to us from brussels, belgium. and laurence bondard, spokesperson for for sos mediterranee based in paris, france. coming up, the occupied west bank as tension sore with jewish settlers attacking and is relaunching helicopter and drone attacks. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "call the tune" by meshell-ndegeocello. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

we turn now to the occupied west bank, where tensions soared this week after israel launched a massive military raid on monday the jenin refugee camp, killing seven palestinians, including a 14-year-old girl and 14-year-old boy. during the raid, which was met by fierce palestinian resistance, israel deployed u.s.-made apache helicopter gunships for the first time inside the west bank in nearly 20 years. on tuesday, two palestinian gunmen shot dead four israelis near an illegal settlement in the west bank. settlers responded by attacking palestinian villages, setting fire to homes and vehicles. one school was set on fire. settlers were caught on video tearing out pages from multiple copies of the quran after they raided a mosque in the west bank village of urif. meanwhile, on wednesday, israel carried its first targeted assassination aerial strike in nearly 20 years.

the drone strike killed three palestinians, including a 15-year-old boy. this all comes as israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's far right government has agreed to accelerate the process for approving new settlements in the west bank despite criticism from the united nations, european union, and united states. we are joined now by mariam barghouti, senior palestine correspondent for mondoweiss. she is usually based in ramallah but is joining us from new york city today. it is great to have you with us. if you can talk about the escalating violence right now in the west bank? >> thank you. good to be here. thank you for having me. right now what we're seeing is in intensification of israeli settler violence against palestinians in the collective. it is not just being intensified at the level of attacks toward

palestinians, but it is increasing in size. this is reminiscent of what we sought in 2021 when israeli settlers rampaged through the old city of jerusalem as well the cities in hard-line palestine such as haifa chanting "death to arabs." that is what they have been doing now, killing arabs. we had almost 700 palestinians killed since 2021. right now what we are seeing is a joining of forces once again between israeli settlers in uniform such as the army and border police and israeli settlers in civilian clothing but also armed, attacking palestinians under the false manipulated discourse that this is a response to a palestinian religions operation. it is not. this is the status quo. this is the daily norm. we saw it in 2015 went in entire

palestinian family near the location where the most recent arson attack happened, and entire family was burned, including an infant just a few months old and his mother and father, leaving the last remaining child of the family who was three at the time orphaned. what we are saying is intensification to completely take over palestine. it is not just palestine in the sense of the west bank, this is gaza, heartland palestine in jerusalem, and right now attacks exactly the same way israeli forces have attacked palestinians in the west bank happening in the occupied syrian bullen heights. israel is moving full force to do exactly what the current finance minister of israel called for in terms of -- that is wiped it out. what they're doing is wiping it

out. amy: do you's office of palestinian affairs said it was appalled by the attacks on palestinians by the israeli settlers, adding "we call the israeli authorities to medially stop the violence, protect u.s. and palestinian civilians, prosecute those responsible. there are many also palestinian-americans were living there as well." can you talk about the state department's respo did that surprise you? >> it did not surprise me. the u.s. state department has really interfered were intervened on behalf of palestinian-american citizens in order to push forward for justice. more than a year later in the assassination of the palestinian-american journalist shireen abu akleh who was also killed by an israeli staffer shot in jenin, still did not receive accountability. in dozens of others who

were killed with zero cut ability. -- and dozens of others were killed with zero accountability. the u.s. did not interfere. i think the language they try to push forward as though they are truthfully and sincerely representing american citizenry as they claim is false. what we see is the u.s. arming israel continuously and consistently. what we see is the u.s. vetoing any potentials or opportunity for actually holding israel accountable. i have never heard of asking the butcher to be told to give themselves judgment and accountability. i have never heard of that dynamic except in this. amy: during the raid in jenin, israel deployed u.s.-made apache gunships for the first time inside the west bank in nearly 20 years. and also carried out its first

targeted assassination aerial strike in the west bank for the first time in 20 years. they have done that in gaza or recently. can you talk about the significance of this? and what difference it means when groups in the united states, particularly jewish groups, put pressure on the u.s. government around the issue of weapons that israel uses coming from the united states? >> thank you for asking that. it is really important to recognize that just recently, the current minister of national security, who has actually denied service in the israeli military because he was considered a terrorist and a threat to national security, is now the minister of national security come has called for a

renewed military operation called defensive shield. defensive shield was a military operation in the early 2000 between 2002-2003, that took place mostly between certain area and they blew up homes wall-to-wall. that is how they moved through cities. it was considered to be one of the most destructive and tragic military operations to have hit palestinians in the west bank. israel was investigated and it has shown the evidence that israel has committed crimes against humanity and war crimes during these operations. a few months ago, the call for operation defensive shield 2.0, basically. that is the significance of using that drone for the first time in 20 years. because the last time it was used was 2006 where they

targeted the young fighters at the time, and now those born in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005 at the peak of operation defensive shield, have grown up and they have seen no change and they try to confront back. now they are asking to kill those come the children that grew up under nothing but war, who are mostly refugees, on world refugee day. almost 80% of those skilled in the last two years were refugees. -- those killed in the last two years were refugees. amy: israeli settlers rampaged in the west bank instead, killing at least one person, critically injuring another, torching buildings and cars. this is a resident of the town. >> dozens of settlers came here. 200, 200 50 settlers. they tried to enter the courtyards. they started shooting toward the house, using live bullets and stones and they damaged the

balconies. there were almost 14 family members at home, including women and children. thank god there were no injuries. they tried to open the doors but they were closed. amy: mariam, if you can talk more about what the israeli government -- how the israeli government responds to israeli settlers rampaging? >> the israeli government arms and provides for them. they send in military forces with the settlers in civilian clothing who are armed as well in order to facilitate ease of movement across palestinian towns and villages. what happened here was preceded in a similar occurrence just a few months ago and it was preceded by a mass arson attack nearnablus a few month ago. this is not an anomaly. it is the norm. this is why it is important for

especially jewish voices in the u.s. to continue tackling this issue where there name and there believe is being used to perpetuate crimes against humanity and to fit the weapons trade industry. it is not just u.s. providing weapons to israel, it is the u.s. and israel tag teaming to test those weapons on palestinians. they turn the palestinian demographic and elaborate. amy: i want to end with the two-year-old palestinian child who was recently shot dead by israeli soldiers. you have written about this and a personal effect it has on you covering this kind of brutality. tell us about him. >> he was a two-year-old boy who was killed -- israeli soldiers chased other palestinian youth

firing bullets at the car near his village. mohammed was next to his father when the shooting happened. as we know, as i have seen from testimony and documentation, israel does not discriminate, indeed, between child or adult, civilian or non-civilian, combatant or noncombatant. the father was injured. mohammed was killed. you need to understand that his mother, this young woman who i have known, she was it -- who -- who i've known since a child, who grew up watching one death after another, this is a small village and could not protect her two-year-old son. i don't know what that does to another. i don't know what that does to a young mother and i don't know what that does to another living under consistent trauma. that is what happened with mohammed who was two.

that is what happens to dozens of palestinian families. it is not to discourage us, but it is to empower us and make us say no. we refuse this dynamic. not at our tax dollars. amy: mariam barghouti, senior palestine correspondent for mondoweiss, based in ramallah. speaking to us today from new york city. you mentioned the idea that palestine is a lab. coming up, we speak with the author antony loewenstein about his new book "the palestine laboratory: how israel exports the technology of occupation around the world." back in 30 seconds. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the palestine laboratory --"the palestine laboratory: how israel exports the technology of occupation around the world." that is the title of a new book the australian journalist antony loewenstein, who examines how israel's military-industrial complex has used the occupied palestinian territories for decades. he says it is a testing ground for weaponry and surveillance technology that they then export around the world. antony loewenstein is the author of a number of books, including "disaster capitalism" and "my

israel question." he was based in east jerusalem between 2016 and 2020. his most recent article for "the sydney morning herald" is "being jewish and critical of israel can make you an outcast. i should know." he is joining us from sydney, australia. we welcome you to democracy now! your book has just come out. what do you mean by the term "the palestine laboratory"? >> thank you for having me. what i mean by that is that the occupation of palestine by israel is the longest occupation in modern time, 56 years and counting. i was the, and occupation since 1948. during that time, what israel has done for successfully from its perspective is fine various tools and technologies to maintain and control palestinians. what they have done during that time, and what israel has done, is increasingly export those

tools and technologies but also those methods come so-called counterinsurgency methods. in the book, classify documents in various interviews across the world, i have learned you find in over 130 countries across the globe in the last decades, israel has sold forms of anything from spyware, so-called facial recognition tools, a range of tools that have initially been tested in palestine on palestinians. so in other words, what i'm saying is the occupation of palestine is not staying there. it is not a conflict that remains geographically based just in palestine. it is become so-called global palestine. amy: how to describe po liticide? >> it was coined by a late amazing academic. he was talking about the concept of a desire within many in the israeli elite to find ways to

destroy palestinians. not just killing them, but extinguishing their self-determination. when looking from the outside, one could argue that in some ways palestinian resistance lives on. your last segment talked about that. palestinians mostly have not left palestine. but certainly from the current israeli government and i would argue for decades, there has been a sense that there is a way to crush palestinian aspiration, their views, their political reality, their future, their horizon. and by doing so, israel has increasingly marketed that to a global audience, including in its whole identities and at the national estate. it is argued the most successful in the world and jewish supremacist state. growing numbers of nations around the world from india and others look to israel with

admiration and inspiration. amy: we just covered modi and his lavish reception by the president with a state dinner last night, the joint session of congress. talk a little more about how india looks to israel. >> what india is doing under modi is not solely because of israel, but traditionally, israel and india were not good friends. since modi took power in 2014, there's been an ideological alignment. but the relationship is twofold. it is a defense relationship. india buys user amounts of technology, defense equipment, spyware. i interviewed a number of people in my book, individuals in india are spied on by israeli spyware, particularly by pegasus. there is an ideological alignment, a believe that many officials in the hindu finalist government there are openly

talking about admiration for what israel is doing to the west bank and wanted to do something similar in kashmir. what i mean by that, they say two reasons. one, israel gets away with it, no one is stopping it. complete state of impunity that israel has globally. secondly, the idea bringing in huge numbers of hindus to muslim majority kashmir. to settle that territory come to build so-called sediments can do what israel is doing in the west bank. i think there is a disturbing alignment. i would make the comparison between israel and india today to israel and apartheid south africa back in the day. nations that were very close ideologically and got inspiration from each other in the believe in israel's case, being a jewish supremacist state and india, hindu find a state. that should concern people, including the u.s. president.

amy: antennae, talk about a jewish supremacist state. i'm wondering if you can talk to your own background, something that you take on this last piece you wrote, "being jewish and critical of israel can make you an outcast. i should know." talk about your family, or great-grandparents, those who died in auschwitz, those who did not survive the holocaust. >> most of my family, like most juice who lived in, perished in the holocaust including schlitz. the ones who got out, particularly in 1939 come just before the war started, skate to austria, canada, u.s. come elsewhere. i was born in the mid-70's and melbourne, australia. israel was not the center of their lives. israel was seen as a safe haven for those who don't know, as a jew i can go to israel tomorrow and within a few months, i can almost certainly be a jewish citizen if i can prove i am jewish.

speaking for many jews, there was a real reluctance come in fact a hostility that any kind of palestinian reality, palestinian story, even to meet palestinians -- as a young jew, i never met palestinians. i think there is a change going on but when i started writing about this issue around 20 years ago, i wrote a book in to who thousand six where there were attempts by the -- in 2006 where there were attempts to since of the book, condemnation of me. it was ridiculous. the book became a bestseller thanks to that ridiculous controversy. over that time, my parents, both of whom lost most of their jewish friends because it was the sins of the son. i was being critical. i'm not the only jew saying this and i'm really encouraged the last years -- in austria stray from u.s. come other western countries, growing almost like a

jewish insurgency against particularly an older generation of jews who doesn't want to humanize palestinians as i believe it should be tied to jewish supremacy. for me personally, i don't claim to be a victim. but also it explains why does pay a price for it. one does pay a price as a jewish person, am a secular anti-zionist jew today, but i feel often there is a real moral collapse in much of the jewish diaspora in the last decade. it is changing, but not nearly fast enough. amy: antony. we were talking about the horrific shipwreck last week of migrants, maybe up to 700 dead. can you talk about israeli technology used by the european union to surveilled and target asylum-seekers? >> it shocked me years ago when i started doing work on this issue.

the short version is, the european unit in the last years after 2015 when they were, in their view, overwhelmed by particularly muslim refugees from syria, afghanistan, and elsewhere, did not want to ever repeat that. they put in place almost a fortress-type europe, which occurred in the last years which is a year of tools and technology to keep people out. sleep muslim and brown and black bodies, of course. part of that arsenal is using israeli drones. unarmed they are flying over the mediterranean 24/7 and used by the eu border security arm most of they are the eyes in this sky, essentially. they're sending back those images to warsaw which is where the company is based. the eu has made a decision -- they don't admit it but it is reality -- of letting people drown. this is the new policy. there are very few rescue boats.

the eu barely rescues anyone. there are some ngos that try to do so and i admire what they're doing. the israeli drone becomes a key arsenal and part of this infrastructure of essentially allowing people to drown. to me it goes to the heart of why israeli drones are used by the e.u. because they were battle tested in palestine over gaza and a number of years, the last 15 years. you see these almost israeli border industrial complex exported across u.s.-mexico border, for example, massive amounts of israeli surveillance towers made by israel's leading defense company dotted across the border. it is a key part of the u.s. arsenal across the mexico border. why was i company chosen by the u.s.? because it was tested first in palestine. to me the real concern in the 21st century as the climate

crisis worsens, as resources are worsening, as refugee numbers have never been higher since world war ii, many western nations are sadly making a choice to not welcome people in as we saw with the recent awful shipwreck, saster in the mediterranean. but to build higher walls and more surveillance. israeli surveillance and technology and repression is part of that arsenal, but many nations are now buying because it is been used in their view successfully on palestinians in palestine. amy: do you have evidence of the united states particular controversial situations working with israel to perhaps have, for example in guatemala, israel work there so the united states won't get -- won't be held responsible? >> salute leave. one of the things i document in the book clearly is over the last 50 years, a lot of nations the u.s. was close to, israel

became almost an american wing man, often supporting, training nations even he was could not officially do because of some issue maybe in congress. that did include nations like guatemala, including at a point where they were committing genocide against their indigenous populations. one of the reasons that many of those nations, guatemala, honduras, chile, a range of other nations in latin and south america including africa and asia, was these nations were really attracted by the idea of learning the so-called skills israel was gaining through its occupation after 1967. how is it managing the palestinian population? huge mass of evidence three declassified evidence and interviews which is in the book is to the hearted showing the u.s. and his will became almost invaluable partners during that period to the point where today

america remains the world's biggest arms dealer 40% of the world's arms sold by the u.s.. israel is 10th. last week in fact, israel released 2022 arms figures. $12.5 billion, the biggest amount ever. 25% of that was going to arab autocracies after the so-called abraham accords, the trump deal from a few years ago. bahrain, saudi arabia, morocco and others. what are they selling? repressive technology, spyware, intelligence gathering -- a range of tools to prop up u.s. and israeli, back to dictatorships in the middle east. this is what the israeli arms treaty is about. not just a moral failing but a dark stain on the jewish legacy 75 years after the holocaust. this is what we have become. we, meaning the jewish population of the world. the legacy seems to be backing in supporting and arming the

worst regimes in the world. amy: let me ask you about something you mentioned earlier and that is pegasus. explain further how it is used and how it is used to that the phone -- in fact the phones of journalists, for example, those who are in jail like in morocco as you talk about the abraham accords? >> pegasus got a lot of attention in the last years is probably the most known or infamous israeli spyware, a tool that allows any government or military, intelligence, or police department to spy on someone's phone, ione or android come and get all of the information from that phone. it is propped up in dozens of countries around the world. i spent a lot of time interviewing some of the victims of that surveillance in togo, for example, mexico, india.

mexico, interestingly enough, is the biggest user of pegasus by far. there is this absolute addiction in mexico, both on the right-wing government and correct left-wing government. governments don't want to get this tool up. it is not just pegasus. there are many companies doing the same thing. one of the things i explore in the book is so much of the media and the last years around pegasus missed the key point. osama sprained as a rogue israel i company doing terrible things. but comp is like pegasus actually are only private in name. there basically arms of this date. netanyahu and the mossad going to varies countries in the last 10 years -- i document is in the book and also being shown by an israeli newspaper -- go to countries like saudi arabia and rwanda and hold pegasus and tools as a diplomatic carrot. if you support us in the u.n. or elsewhere, we will sell you the most powerful spyware in the

world. and it works because it is been sold in the uae and saudi and rwanda and many other repressive states. so unless there is a complete ban on massive regulations which currently does not exist at all, these technologies will continue. even if nso group disappears tomorrow -- currently in financial crisis -- many other companies do the same thing which is why israel is one of the leading spyware exporters in the world. amy: antony loewenstein, thank you for being with us, author of the new book "the palestine laboratory: how israel exports the technology of occupation around the world." if you want to see our interview with the now imprisoned moroccan journalist as well as her other work talking to the university of toronto lab and others about pegasus, you can go to democracynow.org. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by

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