adrian: israel under pressure to end so-called automated apartheid. it is accused of using facial recognition technology to control palestinians in the occupied west bank. so how far have they breached's privacy, and does this technology really offer israel greater security? this is "inside story." ♪ hello and welcome to the program. i am adrian finighan. israel's use of artificial

intelligence to mass surveil palestinians in the west bank, that is the focus of talks this week between members of amnesty international and eu commission officials in brussels. the human rights organization says israel is in what it calls automated apartheid to build a digital database of the palestinian population. former israeli soldiers say they have been ordered to photograph people to update vast databases. palestinians say it is yet another invasion of their privacy. al jazeera's laura khan reports. laura: military check points, cameras, and roadblocks. these are parts of the daily reality of palestinians living in the occupied west bank, and now israel is rolling out more digital tools to spy on them. one is a facial recognition technology called blue wolf. it is described as the facebook of israel's occupation.

it is considered from the world's most suveiled regions that amnesty says is now being rolled out across the occupied west bank. the new report entitled automated apartheid this last month said who wolf technology can "entrench existing societal disadvantages and disempower marginalized groups." the "washington post" noted the use of it about two years ago. smart cameras track and recognize people's faces. they use the technology to take pictures of palestinians and adds them to a vast network comprised of mobile phones. amnesty international says it creates a gamified system of competition underlying the system." that means it gives soldiers an incentive to compete in creating the highest number of profiles of palestinians. israeli forces say "the main challenge in hebron is the friction between the jewish -- israeli settlers and palestinians," and the technology allows them to act faster. many palestinian residents say they have been installed and directed into their private

homes and even bedrooms. this is just another pervasive technology to show the palestinians they are being watched. laura khan, inside story, al jazeera. adrian: we contacted the israeli army to ask why it is using ai surveillance technology and for its response to the report. it says it carries out "necessary security and intelligence operations, while making significant efforts to minimize harm to the palestinian population's routine activity." the statement also says that the military "cannot refer to operational and intelligence capabilities in this context." ♪ let's bring in our guests for today's discussion from brussels. we are joined by matt mahmoudi, artificial intelligence and human rights advisor at amnesty international, the lead author of this report. from occupied east jerusalem, jalal, who is a writer and community leader of the right to movement palestine, and in tel

aviv, ori givati, director at breaking the silence, a nongovernmental establishment, by israeli soldiers. a warm welcome to all of you. matt, let's start with you. tell us more about this amnesty and its findings. why does amnesty consider facial recognition a technology that should be banned, or at the very least, severely restricted? matt: to be clear, amnesty's policy is that there should be a ban on facial recognition technologies for mass surveillance and for discriminatory surveillance, because the technology is simply incompatible with international human rights laws. the technology depends on the aeration of a large database without peoples knowledge and consent, often scraping their images off of social media and other places, and therefore, it, by design, is considered a technology of mass surveillance and therefore incompatible with right to privacy. we also consider it discrimination because of

inherent bias issues consistent with how technology is trained on biased data sets, and also because there is a pattern of this technology being deployed in racially discriminatory context, and finally, because we find that the technology this incentivizes -- dis- incentivizes protests, so it violates the right to assembly and freedom of expression, so, you know, by its nature, we considered a violation of international human rights law. as far as the is concerned, we have been looking at how facial recognition is reinforcing aspects of apartheid in the palestinian territory, paying particular attention to how it further exacerbates restriction on the freedom of movement as well as sort of perpetuating the coercive environment that is in place to essentially force palestinians out of areas of strategic interest to israeli authorities and to illegal israeli settlers. so in this report, we expose in particular the red wolf system, which is a system of facial recognition that is deployed at

checkpoints in hebron, making it very difficult for palestinians to passenger areas to access medical care, services such as work as well as schooling and education, and so you find that having to recognize with an algorithm's access for very basic rights and services are exacerbating already discriminatory, problematic, and oppressive conditions under which palestinians find themselves in the west bank and in places like east jerusalem. for east jerusalem, we have looked at the ways in which the nabat 2000 system, which is now equipped with facial recognition, is being deployed with areas, and making it even more difficult for palestinians to resist the illegal annexation of east jerusalem and finding themselves increasingly surveilled in everyday tasks such as attending family members or meeting out for coffee.

adrian: matt, how does israel's blue wolf differ from facial recognition programs that have been introduced by governments all over the world, the u.s. and india, for example? most of us are monitored costly -- constantly these days by cctv and other forms of surveillance, wherever we live in the world. it is just a fact of society today, isn't it? matt: to be clear, there are two sons currently in place in hebron, the blue wolf system, which is a tool that israeli soldiers are using to both register palestinian faces and to also look them up and gather all the information, display all the information quickly and instantaneously, like the stop and frisk policy on an individual. the red wolf system, which is deployed at a checkpoint, means now the movement of palestinians are also heavily restricted could what we found in other uses of facial recognition, in new york, where we look at its

use is against black lives -- usage against black lives matter protesters, in india, to diminish civic space available to engage in civil disobedience and dissent. what is particularly chilling about the way it is deployed in the context is the ways in which it is governing movement, so literally stifling individuals from being able to access basic rights and services, even in cases in which it is not deployed at the checkpoint, for example, with the nabat 2000 system or with the blue -- blue wolf, it is very clear that they have to deal with the initial -- additional calculus of fear with everyday activity, increasingly diminishing the spaces available for palestinians to live. we have accounts and held -- and testimonies of palestinian families noting how in hebron, the incursion of facial recognition technologies is effectively destroying any form of social fight.

adrian: we will hear more about what life is like living under the risk of surveillance from july in a moment, but first, ori, your colleagues are telling you about how they feel about israel's use of this technology, and what is israel's justification, do you think, for using it? ori: hi and thank you for having me come and thank you for the great work for this report can we were happy to collaborate. i think that, first of all, when we started healing from soldiers who actually use these technologies in the last few years, we noticed a change, you know, we were breaking the silence, almost 20 years to working to hear about the different ways we control and invade palestinians' lives, right? home invasions, many other issues, routine parts of the way

we wish we control the palestinian population in the occupied territory could when we started hearing about the use of these, we were hearing about it basically a new layer of control. until now, we have been controlling them only in the physical space, in their homes, in their streets, in the protest. another layer is basically controlling palestinians' digital space. the territory is not only feeling like the home is being invaded in a moment, yeah? but also their most private, personal, information is also being controlled by the military. now, when you talk about justification, the occupation including the surveillance technology, the justification is always security. we published together with "the

washington post" a year and a half ago, in the beginning of your introduction here, in order to improve palestinian lifestyle, right? it makes our control better, more efficient, right? even until the use of the blue wolf, the soldiers wanted to check in on the background of individuals, stopped in the streets, they had to call their name, their i.d. number, and in the base, the soldiers have to check the system, now they take a photo, and they have the details. it is making everything more efficient. but this kind of justification can, you know, the security justification of making everything more efficient, this is for everything we see in the occupied territories. you also remember what we are talking about here, you are talking about millions of people living more than 56 years of

military occupation, in the context that, we know the palestinians are being stopped in the streets, their photos are taken, they can't -- they don't consent. until there testimonies came and other research, they had no idea what the photos are for, yeah? they cannot vote for a political party, they cannot vote for any party that is related tothey d'i government. and there are no checks and balances, who is maintaining them, who's making sure they don't leak, whose making sure they are secure enough? taking the military's justification and looking at what is actually going on on the ground, it is very similar -- simple to understand. we are talking about the elements of occupation, apartheid, and not israel

improving the palestinian lifestyle. adrian: ok. jalal, you have written that you have lived in a surveillance society, which is no different than those depicted in dystopian science fiction novels. what impact does it have directly on you, your family, your friends? it starts at home, doesn't that, even before you have left the house? jalal: absolutely. this is the purpose of the system of surveillance, something is always interested in these societies, even a dystopian novel or watching movies as a kid, as you can imagine, the psychological impact you would have on people, and for my life, perhaps 16, 17 years, the surveillance being applied, and it is a part of our every single aspect of daily life, whether it is on the

streets, whether it is traveling to your family or even communicating online or a telephone, surveillance is existing in every part. of course, it is a layer of many layers that israel employees to entrench a system of oppression, apartheid, this is how they will dominate in control -- and control the population. they are colonizing, basically. and, you know, annie palestinian will tell you we already face a harsh reality on every front, as some people are facing of course evictions from their homes, especially in jerusalem, over 100,000 palestinians live in construction deems to be illegal by israeli authorities, of course because of systematic discrimination. people live in the fear in the west bank, fear for their life, the settlement expansion and the

violence is occurring daily on every corner. the fact that there is another layer with even further impact, psychological impact, it is -- it's focus is to defeat us. this occupation, this sad reality, when you live in such a society, the thing that gives you hope as an individual is if you are gauging -- engaging in activism, to be able to go to a march, if you have some basic liberties to protest and voice your opposition to the system. the fact that we don't even have the right to protest, the most simple, basic form, even posting on social media can get people arrested for incitement. so it is a multilevel system. adrian: jalal, you also wrote

that the surveillance you are personally subjected to is nothing compared to what residents in hebron are currently facing peer what is going on in hebron? why is surveillance tougher there? jalal: there are many layers to apartheid. for myself, we are constantly controlled and monitored, especially in jerusalem. we are isolated from the rest of the palestinian communities, especially in the west bank, through checkpoints, through the wall. there is the reality that we are just faceless palestinians, but we are subjected to a different system, because jerusalem was annexed in 1980, and we are subjected to a different legal system. in the west bank, palestinians who are under direct israeli control, they are subjected to a whole different system, a military system, judges, where 99.7% conviction rate.

we have close to no rights in the west bank under occupation. in the heart of hebron, you know, there is a settlement project that is basically in the heart of the city of hebron, for example, you would consider more of a right to movement in nodland. hebron is different. the settlers, in the heart of the most popular city in the west bank. people are subjected to the most serious version of apartheid. you can get stop shopping for groceries, you can get harassed, the most basic acts of life are constantly affected by the system of surveillance. adrian: ori, wouldn't it be cheaper to relocate the small amount of israeli settlers in

hebron while investing so much in these surveillance technologies? ori: so, first, i will continue from where they are totally agree with him. one of the things we have seen, hebron is kind of an occupation lock. not only surveillance but recently programs, surveillance, starting in hebron, we know that already it is existing in the west bank, we have soldiers come from all over the west bank, using blue wolf. red wolf is only in hebron, as far as we know, but very possible to be expanded in the future. and we also have other types of technology, you know, recently we saw a remotely operated weapon at one of the checkpoints in hebron, directed toward a palestinian neighborhood. and we already know that in

hebron it was involving at least two others around the west bank. so many of the different ways we occupy come a that we control in hebron and then expand throughout the west bank. now, if we look at the way that israel has been controlling hebron, we can see, you know, hebron is kind of the microcosm of the occupation, yeah? you have a settlement in the middle of the city, checkpoints, segregated rows, daily home invasions, and so forth, which is exactly the way we control the entire west bank, yeah? of course, if you think about it reasonably, you will say it does not make sense to put a settlement in the middle of the city. but unfortunately, right now, in my country, not only right now, in the last few decades, decided that we want to pursue this

project. not only around the west bank, basically creating a close no surrounding the palestinians, but in hebron, establishing in the city -- center of the city, you know of course, if you think about it reasonably, economically, and so forth, in the weekend, over 1000 soldiers regarding, so it does not make sense. but when you look at the politics, when you look at the broader project of the movement, hebron is a pillar of that project. adrian: before we get back to that. jalal, you suspect there is something else going on, it is not about the surveillance technology, that the people in hebron are, to a certain extent, the subject of an experiment. this is technology that israel

wants to profit from, it wants to sell off. jalal: absolutely. i think hebron is an excellent, as already said, lab for ai technology, for surveillance technology, and we all know that it starts in this oppressive nature and hebron also spreads throughout the west bank, and it is promoted and sold elsewhere across the globe as well. i have to also point out the fact that gaza strip under siege for over 60, 70 years is also the lab for israel, mostly the weaponry, the destructive bombs, that have caused atrocities in gaza. i see that israel, this whole project in technology is benefiting from this project, those labs, and learning exactly how to maintain the system of apartheid. what we see in hebron is felt everywhere across palestine. we see it in jerusalem as well

as all parts, the idea of dominating and controlling parts of the population, no rights, no civil liberties, quality of life always dwindling, no dignity, and just, i don't, it is most likely just to control this project. adrian: matt, as we said at the beginning of the program, amnesty is meeting with the eu commission. what can the eu do about the use of israel's facial recognition technologies, or the companies involved in supplying the technologies, is it illegal for them to do so? are the eu manufacturers encouraged not to supply such technologies to israel, will they simply be replaced by homegrown or chinese one? matt: the two companies we identify are tk security and hike vision. tk security is dutch, one of many cup ratings offering

products, -- many companies offering products. the landmark ai legislation currently under legislation at the eu is one avenue through which we can challenge the ways in which these technologies are currently supporting and enabling the scaling of apartheid policies against palestinians in the occupied territories. we are particularly concerned with what it would mean to potentially increase the prohibitions and what we class as being prohibitive under the act, such that a proposal that is adjusting the banning of acts or -- export of any technology that would be deemed as prohibitive in the eu context from being exported to the israeli authorities or any other state outside of the eu context, for usage for human right s abuses elsewhere. if we can get the ai act to a point under which, for example,

retrospective remote technologies would be prohibited, we would also be in a situation in which hopefully, with some courage, the technologies that would be used for these purposes and by israeli authorities in the occupied palestinian territories could also be prohibited. as for whether the is really authorities might find another avenue for supplying themselves with technologies that can be used for facial recognition, of course there may be other avenues, and they may even be homegrown, however, by weakening the supply of hardware that is used, together with facial recognition systems that are being supplied from you and from elsewhere -- from the eu and from elsewhere, especially given obligations that these companies have under the u.n. guiding principles, for example, to make sure that they have human rights in place, that their products are not, for example, supporting and enabling international grave

cons, that we can create a non-permissive environment for companies to engage with the helping of scaling of apartheid policies. adrian: but, matt, the wall is illegal, the surveillance we are discussing is part of an illegal occupation. israel seems to ignore any outcry, and amnesty campaigning on this issue, as it always does you are shouting in the dark, aren't you? matt: it may well be that we are shouting in the dark, but of course at amnesty, the model tends to be that it is better to light a candle than to curse out the darkness. in this case, i think that is very true, because as we begin to make it more non-permissible to engage in the supplied surveillance technology, as we begin to create a market, as it were, around the supply of ai technologies, making it distasteful and public knowledge that indeed human rights violations are being effectuated

by these ai technologies in places like palestine, then we begin to make it more possible to weaken the system and to indeed bring trials outside of the context of israel and palestine to the floor. i think it is very important that we begin to shine a light on how technologies can sometimes seem a little ephemeral or hard to grasp are leading to real human rights consequences everywhere. indeed, i think in the european context, there should be some cause to rethink and stop and take a pause and consider what it would look like to have technologies that are restricting the freedom of movement deployed here, because that is what we are seeing the natural conclusion of. adrian: ori, of that about 30 seconds left. is any of this pressure going to make any difference? does israel care? ori: look, unfortunately, right now, with the government that i have seen, and i've seen the government in israeli, the eu are friends, you know, also the

u.s. are not doing enough, you know, not to protect palestinians and our society. but we also believe that organizations like amnesty must keep doing its work, bring this reality into brussels, into the states, because eventually, we believe that they will take action, hopefully as soon as possible, and not wait like they are waiting right now. adrian: gentlemen, there we must end our discussion. thank you for being with us, matt mahmoudi, jho low -- jalal abukhater, and ori givati, thank you for watching could you can see the program at any time by going to the website aljazeera.com. ,for f further discussion, join us on our facebook page, that's facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can join the conversation on twitter. our handle is @ajinsidestory. for me, adrian finighan, and the whole team here, we will see you again. bye for now. ♪

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