07/19/23 07/19/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! as the war in ukraine approaches its 17th month, we will speak to two reporters who have closely looked at the role played by neo-nazis in the war from the azov battalion in ukraine to the anti-putin russian militia that attacked russian targets in may. >> it is the asov exception

where we celebrate these people while at the same time we are screaming that the greatest threat to america is white supremacy. where everything could be said is immediately amplified, immediately, oh, this is horrible, while at the same time we are inviting neo-nazis to congress. amy: first, we speak to longtime national security reporter william arkin about the cia's secret role inside ukraine and how the agency is shuttling weapons to kyiv using a "gray fleet" of commercial aircraft. his new piece in newsweek is headlined "the cia's line spot about the ukraine war." all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. donald trump said tuesday

federal prosecutors have informed him he's the target of a justice department criminal investigation into his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. trump made a similar announcement shortly before jack smith filed criminal charges over trump's mishandling of classified documents. in florida, the trump appointed federal judge overseeing the classified documents case tuesday appeared skeptical of trump's request to delay the trial until after the 2024 election but judge cannon also appeared unlikely to approve a request by federal prosecutors to start the trial by the end of this year. meanwhile, all nine justices on georgia supreme court have rejected a bid by trump's lawyers to block an investigation by atlanta-area prosecutor fani willis into efforts by trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election. willis has said she will announce in august whether charges will be brought in the

case. in addition, the attorney general dana nessel has charged 16 people with felonies for falsely claiming to be presidential electors as they attempted to overturn trump's 2020 defeat in the state. >> as part of the orchestrated plan, we alleged 16 michigan residents met covertly in the basement of michigan gop headquarters and knowingly and of their own volition signed their names to multiple certificates stating they were the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states of america for the state of michigan. that was a lie. amy: one of those charged is meshawn maddock, former co-chair of the michigan republican party, a close ally to trump and the wife of state representative matt maddock. meshawn maddock previously told a gathering of local republicans

the trump campaign had directed the fake elector scheme. in china, a series of unrelenting heat waves has triggered a soaring demand for electricity leading to unprecedented amounts of coal consumption at china's many coal-fired power plants. this comes after the chinese government approved a record-breaking 86 gigawatts of new coal-fired power capacity last year. in northern india, floodwaters from unusually heavy rains have pushed the yamuna river to levels not seen in nearly half a century. on tuesday, the swollen river was lapping the walls of the famed taj mahal, prompting fears that the 17th-century monument could become damaged. in iran, a combination of heat and humidity this week pushed the heat index at the persian gulf international airport to 152 degrees fahrenheit, with a dew point over 90%. that's close to the limit of

what the human body can survive. meanwhile, europe is still sweltering. on tuesday, rome reached 107 degrees fahrenheit, or nearly 42 degrees celsius, while other italian cities also shattered all-time temperature records. some hospitals reported their highest number of daily admissions since the worst days of the covid-19 pandemic. in greece, the european union is sending water bombers and hundreds of firefighters and soldiers to battle wildfires that erupted around athens. more wildfires are burning in spain, turkey, and switzerland. here in the united states, more than 58 million people are enduring triple-digit temperatures this week with forecasters warning a massive heat dome will remain fixed in southwestern and southern states. in louisiana, the aclu filed an emergency plea with a federal court this week asking for the transfer of children incarcerated at the notorious angola prison.

advocates say the child prisoners, who are mostly black, were locked in windowless cells without air conditioning around the clock in the prison's former death row as the heat index inside angola topped 130 degrees fahrenheit. in texas, officials directed by republican governor greg abbott to apprehend asylum seekers at the southern border were ordered to push small children and nursing babies back into the rio grande and to deny water to migrants even in the sweltering heat. that's according to "the houston chronicle," which obtained an email written by a texas public safety department agent urging -- calling for policy changes. the trooper, nicholas wingate, calls for the removal of barrels wrapped in razor wire placed in the rio grande, writing to his colleagues "this is nothing but an inhumane trap in high water and low visibility." he describes two incidents from

last month where a four-year-old migrant girl and a pregnant woman having a miscarriage were found with severe injuries as they crashed into the barbwire barrels while crossing the river. the young girl had also passed out from heat exhaustion. he also wrote a migrant mother and one of her children drowned in the rio grande in early july and the other was never found. those drownings were never officially reported. in sudan, the u.n. reports 200,000 people have been displaced just in the past week as fighting rages between the army and the paramilitary rapid support forces, or rsf. in the four months since the conflict erupted, some 2.6 million people have been internally displaced and over 730,000 have fled sudan. survivors of the 2003 genocide in darfur say the targeting of the masalit people in today's conflict resembles the ethnic cleansing suffered in the region 20 years ago. the international criminal court launched an investigation last

week into possible war crimes and crimes against humanity in darfur. this is icc prosecutor karim khan. >> we are by any analysis not on the precipice of a human catastrophe, but in the very midst of one. it is occurring. it is my analysis and my prayer and advice that we must act urgently, collectively to protect the most vulnerable. amy: south africa has said russian president vladimir putin will not attend this year's bric summit. the icc issued an arrest warrant in south africa would be obligated to arrest him if he entered south africa. syrian news outlets are reporting two syrian soldiers were injured earlier today as israel's military launched air strikes around the capital,

damascus. the syrian observatory for human rights says the assault, which targeted military sites and warehouses operated by hezbollah fighters from lebanon, was the 20th such attack by israel this year inside syria. in palestine, the red crescent society says it has begun equipping first-responders with helmets and bulletproof vests amidst a surge in attacks on medical workers by israeli forces and settlers in occupied east jerusalem and the west bank. the red crescent says there have been nearly 200 incidents targeting staff and ambulances so far this year, more than triple the rate seen over the same period last year. meanwhile, the israeli human rights group peace now reports israel's far-right government has approved 13,000 new housing units in illegal west bank settlements, the highest rate of construction since peace now began tracking settlements over a decade ago. in israel, tens of thousands of protesters flooded the streets of cities nationwide tuesday for

the 28th consecutive week of protests against plans by the far-right government of benjamin netanyahu to gut israel's judiciary. a final vote on the measure could come as soon as early next week. president biden welcomed israeli president isaac herzog to washington, d.c., on tuesday, pledging u.s. support to israel despite rising violence against palestinians and the continued expansion of illegal settlements in occupied east jerusalem and the west bank. herzog spoke to reporters outside the white house after meeting president biden in the oval office. >> and we discussed many issues, including the iranian nuclear threat and the operations by hezbollah to clear up the region as well as our ironclad alliance on security, including the ability to build regional cooperation and move forward in the circle of peace. amy: president herzog will address a joint meeting of

congress today. some progressive democrats are planning to boycott the speech to protest israel's treatment of palestinians. among those skipping the address are new york's alexandria ocasio-cortez and the first two muslim women elected to congress -- minnesota's ilhan omar and michigan's rashida tlaib, who's palestinian-american. on tuesday, members of the house of representatives voted 412-to-9 in favor of a resolution proclaiming that israel is not a racist or apartheid state. the vote was hastily organized after seattle congressmember pramila jayapal, who heads the congressional progressive caucus, called israel a "racist state" in public remarks on -- this weekend. after facing criticism, congressmember jayapal later clarified that her comments were directed at the extreme right-wing government of prime minister benjamin netanyahu. activists in western sahara are calling for solidarity from palestinian rights groups after israeli prime minister benjamin

netanyahu on monday formally recognized morocco's sovereignty over the northwest african territory. israel becomes the second country in the world to do so after donald trump tweeted u.s. recognition in december 2020. morocco has occupied western sahara since 1975 in defiance of the united nations and international law. over the past four decades, thousands of western sahara's indigenous people, the sahrawi, have been tortured, imprisoned, killed, and disappeared while resisting the moroccan occupation. speaking with middle east eye, western sahara-based activist mohammed elbaikam said -- "morocco relies on the same tools and methods as israel in suppressing the palestinians, occupying them, displacing them from their land, robbing them of their wealth and controlling them." thailand's constitutional court has suspended lawmaker pita limjaroenrat, a top candidate for prime minister after his liberal move forward party garnered the most support in may's national elections.

pita failed to secure the position of prime minister last week after being voted down by the senate, which was appointed after a military coup in 2014. he has pledged to reform the military and the all-powerful thai monarchy. he addressed his fellow lawmakers earlier today following his suspension. >> i think thailand is not the same anymore. ever since may 14. we have come only halfway from a people's victory and there is another have to go. as i can no luck before my duties, i would like to ask fellow members of parliament to continue to look after the people. amy: and in a victory for criminal justice reform, the illinois supreme court has ruled in favor of legislation abolishing the state's cash bail system. the 5-2 ruling overturned a decision by a lower court from last december deeming the pretrial fairness act unconstitutional. illinois judges will no longer require people charged with a crime to post bail in order to be released from jail as they

await trial unless they're considered a threat to the public or are likely to flee. the policy is expected to go into effect in september. in a statement, the illinois network for pre-trial justice said -- "black people have been disproportionately impacted by wealth-based jailing, giving people the opportunity to stay in their communities while awaiting trial will enable them to keep their jobs, housing, and custody of their children, making us all safer." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, william arkin on the cia secret role inside ukraine and how the agency is shuttling weapons to kyiv using "gray fleet" of commercial aircraft. his investigation is headlined "the cia's line despite about the ukraine war." back in a minute. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "winter evening" by valentin silvestrov.

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by democracy now!'s juan gonzález in chicago. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we begin today's show looking at the role of the cia in the war in ukraine. a recent cover story in newsweek revealed the cia is shuttling weapons into ukraine using a "gray fleet" of commercial aircraft that crisscrosses central and eastern europe. cia personnel are also going into ukraine on secret missions. according to one source, cia agents are assisting ukrainians with new weapons and systems. one senior military intelligence official told newsweek -- "the cia has been operating inside ukraine, under strict rules, and with a cap on how many personnel can be in country at any one time." the cia is also using poland as its clandestine hub to coordinate its operations inside ukraine.

after the september 11 attacks, the cia also used poland to house one of its secret black sites where prisoners were tortured. we are joined now by william arkin, senior editor at newsweek. his investigation for the magazine is headlined "the cia's blind spot about the ukraine war." today william arkin is joining us from sweden. he is a prize-winning national security reporter. his books include "top secret america: the rise of the new american security state." bill arkin, welcome back to democracy now! it is great to have you with us. why don't you start off by telling us in this many month investigation what you did, what surprised you most and don't speak in soundbites. >> thank you for having me on again. i worked on this question of what the role of the cia was in ukraine, and i wanted to know

particularly whether or not all of the hollywood rumors surrounding the agency, its possible involvement in the attack on the nord stream pipeline, its possible involvement in other sabotage attacks inside russia. a lot of the news that i was hearing about the presence of the cia on the ground and its covert assistance, i wanted to know how much of it was true. i went down this path to try to get to the truth. what i came up with most importantly, and this is most importantly, the cia is intelligence agencies so it's number one mission in ukraine is to collect intelligence -- not just on what the russians are doing, but also on what the ukrainians are doing. that is the biggest blind spot is i identified, which is the u.s. knows as little about what zelenskyy is up to and what he is thinking and what his views are about the future as it does about vladimir putin and his

future plans and intentions. this might, as a surprise to some people, but as my sources explained it to me, the reality is ukraine is not an ally of the united states. we have no treaty obligations towards ukraine. and the u.s. is not at war with russia, so this is a particularly unique battlefield in which the cia is playing an outside role but it is playing an outside role because the biden administration has been firm in saying the u.s. military will not be involved in any direct way in the fighting or on the battlefield or inside ukraine. so you have the situation where the cia's primary mission, which is to figure out what it is that the russians and the ukrainians are doing, as well as now it's augmented mission, which is to play akleh -- a greater role in the provision of arms to ukraine, a greater role in

counterintelligence, a greater role in corralling all of the neighbor states to ukraine so they stay firmly engaged in the war. some countries of which the genetic population is not as enthusiastic about war with russia as is let's say poland. this stretches the ca quite thin in terms of what it is doing but also it has its hand in a little bit of everything and i would say i would give it low marks on understanding the intentions of putin or zelenskyy, very high marks on understanding what is going on in the battlefield. but the most high marks are in moving the billions of dollars worth of weapons that the united states and nato has pledged to kyiv. juan: william arkin, the cia is no stranger to ukraine.

clearly in the post-world war ii to period, it was involved in developing right-wing groups within ukraine that were opposing the soviet union. a lot of former neo-nazis. as you write, the cia has been central to the war even before began when biden tapped william burns as his global troubleshooter. can you talk about burns' role and his extort role -- his historic role? >> when joe biden became president, appointed a number of his close associates to be his main national security actors. but the person that was appointed to be the director of the cia, former ambassador to russia william burns, and foreign service officer in his career, was somebody who was much more considered to be the

senior statesman of the administration come if you will, the person with the most experience. so when russia invaded ukraine in february 2022, it was no surprise that burns became the central figure in this war and that he had superior knowledge of putin and of russia but also he had a long career specializing in eastern europe. so when he was appointed sort of the biden administration's back channel negotiator, diplomat, and main spy, it fell to him to handle relations with kyiv. remember, the u.s. embassy was closed for a long time. it fell to the cia to handle the clandestine relations that extent -- relationships that

have been built up since 9/11 and even since the end of the cold war. the cia has played an extremely important role in the modern era and i would say the legacy of what the cia may have done in the soviet era just is not represented by those who work in the cia today nor is it part of what the cia thinks it's main purpose is. juan: in terms of why the biden administration has not insisted on more of openness on the part of ukraine's government, given the enormous amount of aid the u.s. is giving, why hasn't it pressed president zelenskyy to be more forthcoming about what ukraine is doing? >> i think the cia and the u.s. government has pressed the ukrainians. it doesn't necessarily mean they have full control over them. the reality is, the u.s. main

objective in the biden administration supreme objective has been to see the war not be escalated. that the united states not be put into a situation where it is fighting against russia directly. and part of that was to urge ukraine not to attack russia, not to attack belarus or russian forces were deployed. that pretty much worked up until september or october of last year, first when the nord stream bombings occurred and then second when the attack on the bridge occurred. in which case united states, u.s. intelligence believed ukraine was behind both of them. and though it believed ukrainian factions were behind both the text, it was not altogether clear to the cia that zelenskyy himself had foreknowledge or even had been read in on those operations because zelenskyy's power -- those powers are himself limited

inside ukraine. so this cia might have put a lot of pressure on zelenskyy and his government in order to be more transparent or to deal with corruption or deal with accountability, but it is not altogether clear that zelenskyy has full control over the ukrainian military or secret services, nor is it necessarily the case the u.s. is in a position to really exert much leverage against ukraine at this point. it is like too big to fail that the u.s. has invested war so much in the ukraine war that it can't credibly say to zelenskyy, if you don't do x, we're going to stop supplying you with arms. the cia represents these many interests, not to escalate with russia, the interest not to have russia resort to the use of nuclear weapons, trying to understand what putin's position

and thinking is. but at the same time, it struggles with the question of whether or not it understands well enough what it is that ukraine once and also what it is that ukraine will accept beyond its public rhetoric in trying to end the war. amy: you mentioned william burns, her interesting key figure, former ambassador to russia, and you talk about how he went to russia before the war. he is also the one who for years warned against the expansion of nato's saying it will provoke russia. you talk about with the u.s. understands about ukraine. what does the u.s. understand about russia right now and working with russia before russia invaded? >> i'm afraid the biden administration has squandered the possibility of being a third actor in this war. the u.s. has aligned itself 100% with ukraine. as a result of that, i don't see much movement or much interest

even on the part of the u.s. government in washington to be a third party, to actually be a negotiator, to find a peaceful resolution. really, no one is playing that role. the united nations is not playing that role. sweden is not playing that role anymore that it aspires to be a member of nato. there is no neutral party that really is playing the role of trying to end the conflict between the two parties, who are essentially stalled right now in combat, where there is not much movement on either side. the killing continues. it was the case that in the minds of russia, the expansion of nato was provocative and may in the theory of national security been a strategic threat to russia. it is probably the case when history is written, we will say that nato was a little bit too

greedy in its zeal to expand into eastern europe. but the reality is that it does not exclude -- excuse the russian invasion in 2014 or 2022. the reality for the cia is they need to understand what putin's intentions are not only to understand the implications of ukraine's actions, particularly increasing actions in crimea and across the border in russia, but also to understand what it is that putin will settle for as part of a settlement and also what it is that zelenskyy will settle for. it is a tricky situation where i don't really have a lot of confidence that this cia is fully on top of what either of these two leaders think. juan: william arkin, i wanted to double back to comments made a few moments ago in terms of ukraine that you said it is not

clear that president zelenskyy is fully in charge of his military. do your sources indicate to you what the cia believes who are the other potential forces that might have some control over the military? >> in the structure of the ukrainian government, you have the presidency and the office of the president. it is a rather new democratic institution, so it only has so much power. during a war, that power is somewhat diminished. then there is the military itself and its commander-in-chief who is the most powerful actor in ukrainian society today. but you also have the national guard and you have ukrainian intelligence and you have the ukrainian secret agencies, including the secret special operations forces. it is not clear who indeed is in charge of all of them. my guess is the

commander-in-chief of the ukrainian armed forces is nominally in charge, but there is also a desire, which my sources particularly highlighted, that says sometimes for politicians and even for general not to know what is going on because that gives them both plausible denial but also allows them to speak honestly to other leaders to be able to say they are not clear as to what happened. so if the general in ukraine or president zelenskyy himself says , "i don't know who attacked the nord stream pipeline," they want to be able to say it truthfully. so sometimes they just want to know. they intentionally don't want to know. of the structure of the decision-making is actually working and what the power of these secret agencies are and how much they have and have not done inside ukraine, well, that in itself is a bit of a mystery. it is not one that anyone has a clear understanding of.

and that anyone might include the president himself, zelenskyy himself. amy: before we end, you write more than year after the invasion, the u.s. sustains to massive networks most ships deliver goods. clandestinely, a fleet of commercial aircraft the great fleet moving arms is supporting cia operations. you talk about the u.s. central base being in poland. the biden administration asked you not to identify who the commercial airlines are and what exactly these networks are. talk about their significance. >> there is an extraordinary amount of activity going on a moving arms and ammunition and material into ukraine and it is happening mostly through these eastern european neighbors of

ukraine. but the truth is -- and this is one thing that i did learn in my investigation that i had not considered -- use intelligence also believes the russians, the fsb, the russian intelligence services themselves, are not really privy to how the arms are moving into the country. that they don't really have the intelligence ability to track arms as they are coming into ukraine. as result of that, the cia insists this is a secret, that it is an actual secret the divulges of which would have a deleterious effect on national security. we were willing to not mention the countries and not mention the name of the airline that is involved, but the truth of the matter is, it is quite interesting that the assessment of the agency is that the russian intelligence is very limited in what it can see. to some degree, that is proven

in russian attacks and russian reattacks that it is clear despite all of the money russia spends on its fsb, the ex kgb, on satellites, etc., it just is not up to the quality of nato or the united states and its own intelligence collection. amy: william arkin, thank you for being with us, senior editor at newsweek. we will link to your new investigation for the magazine headlined "the cia's blind spot about the ukraine war." bill arkin was speaking to us from sweden. coming up, as the war in ukraine approaches its 17th month, we will speak to two reporters who have closely looked at the role played by neo-nazis in the warfront the asov battalion to the anti-right putin militia that attack targets in may. back in a moment. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "darkside" folknery. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we end today's show -- we're going to talk today about what is happening in ukraine. we are joined right now by two people, a journalist who has written extensively in these intercept, a reporter who has looked at the role of neo-nazis in the war. the ukrainian-born journalist lev golinkin is with us. he recently wrote a piece for the nation headlined "the western media is whitewashing the azov battalion." the piece looks at the neo-nazi roots of one of ukraine's most heralded paramilitary forces. earlier this month, turkey released five former azov commanders who were being held in turkey. they flew back on a plane with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy.

meanwhile, the intercept recently detailed how an anti-putin russian militia that carried out attacks inside russia in may is led by a neo-nazi who has maintained links with american neo-nazis. that piece was written by ben makuch, a national security reporter who used to work as a correspondent for vice news tonight. ben has also just written a new piece for the intercept about an american army vet wanted for murder in the united states who escaped to ukraine to fight with the right sector, an ultranationalist ukrainian militia. we're going to get to that in a moment. lev golinkin and ben makuch, we welcome you both to democracy now! ben, i want to talk to you about the fees you wrote "russian militia has links to american neo-nazi and anti-trans figures." why don't you lay out what you found? >> the leader of the russian

volunteer corps is this well-known neo-nazi figure not only in europe, but also came to prominence in the united states when he dusted of podcast in 2021 with the founder and leader of the rise above movement. this is a character who has been very involved with the online neo-nazi community but also his group was at -- some were indicted. he himself came under a probe by the fbi for some actions at berkeley. after those podcast appearances, i dug further and he also had connections to the spending christopher paul house who is this for your marine corps veteran that now leads this group called the blood tribe. most recently he has shown up to drag events in ohio carrying a pistol and intimidating protesters. when i started to see these connections with ukrainian

forces, to me it was significant. especially when you saw the american weapons and armored vehicles were allegedly used by the group. juan: from what you can tell, how extensive are the far-right groups in russia and possible connections to those in ukraine? >> far-right groups in russia and ukraine have had links before but i would say the russian far-right groups, they are extremely anti-putin. i covered in 2016 in the lead up to the world cup because many were talking about causing violence in 2018 in these groups were extremely anti-putin. some had actually done prison sentences for terrorism.

these are the types of figures that are now a part of the volunteer corps. these types of individuals are not only hyper violent and have been involved in criminal networks in russia, but they are very much, very pronounced neo-nazis that adhere to extremely racist violent ideologies. the people involved in the russian volunteer corps. amy: let me bring lev golinkin into this conversation. can you talk about your most recent piece and also the significance of zelenskyy find back with turkey with the permission oferdogan to the ire of putin with the asov leaders? can you talk about who they are and what exactly this deal was? >> yeah.

the commander of asov, this is people who are trapped in mariupol, who gave themselves up to russians, and who according to a prisoner, were supposed to stay in turkey until the end of the war. zelenskyy broke that deal and brought them back. the leader denys prokopenko, he is 70 who -- somebody who is the type of person that western media says is an example of a neo-nazi. in reality, he came out of the kyiv mill you called the white boys club. the name speaks for itself. he has been photographed many times with one of the most common neo-nazi symbols in the world. he was part of asov's beginning from 2014, from when it was just a battalion form of a neo-nazi

gang. he has now returned, either he will begin his duties as commander of asov now or he has been instituted, but it is insane he is the type of person who we look at and say, asov no longer is commanded by far-right groups when you have somebody like that. amy: there has been criticism of your reporting, lev, saying you are making too much of the white supremacist influences or the far right, neo-nazi influences now in ukraine and the fight against russia, though they may have had their beginnings there. can you respond to that? >> it is pretty insane that every time marjorie taylor greene sneezes, it is the second coming of hitler and yet we have two brigades of neo-nazis and we

are perfectly fine with that. the way i look at it is, you can support ukraine without glorifying come of that whitewashing neo-nazis. it is in that we are doing this. -- it is insane we're doing this. i think if i was reporting on neo-nazis anywhere else, i would not have gotten criticism. because they are our neo-nazis, we're celebrating them, then i have gotten criticism. i did not start the session with asov. putin did and also our foreign service and media when they started celebrating them as heroes. anybody who is criticizing, it doesn't really matter because i feel two of grades of neo-nazis is two too many for us to be supporting. amy: can you talk about what happened at stanford university on june 29, the panel that it held from the asov brigade? lay out the theme for us.

>> asov has had exists of -- extensive tours of america. denys prokopenko's wife was one of them. they would tour and do goodwill relationship building. they have been invited to congress, met members of congress and twice last fall and now last month they have been to stanford. which is incredible that you have this university, which ironically, one of stanford's institutes published probably one of the most is austin -- exhaustive studies of asov. stanford has tracked asov and reported on them and yet at the same time, stanford invited them to campus twice. both times they met with prominent people.

they are going there and projecting their logo on a campus, which is a neo-nazi logo , and stanford apparently is perfectly fine with welcoming them. the incredible part is that stanford before has had a role when a lefty jewish-american cartoonist came on campus and who uses sarcastically nazi imagery, when that happened, stanford suddenly had a problem. stanford started putting out statements and having events about how this could trigger students and this makes people uncomfortable. and yet you have a neo-nazi insignia and neo-nazi group on campus and they are welcome. they have the red carpet out for them. it is stunning and responsible. juan: lev golinkin, even before

the russian invasion of ukraine, ukraine -- there were numerous articles being published in europe and the u.s. about how ukraine had become a meeting point for far right and neo-nazi groups from the united states and russia, there were regular conferences there. of course, we have had thousands of foreigners volunteer to fight against the russian invading troops. what is your sense of what proportion of these foreign fighters are also neo-nazis? >> it is hard to get the proportion, especially these days because there's so much unreported and so much under the radar. the point is that asov has remained a hub for neo-nazis to come over and they can get battlefield experience. it is no different than the networks of islamists who recruited isis when they recruited people from all over the world to come and get

experience. so you have this and -- asov is only a tiny part of the ukrainian military, but how many world countries have actual neo-nazi units? asov has used this war to their advantage brilliantly and they are tremendous fighters. it does not help that american western media, the same media who spent seven years asov tracking asov and tracking its neo-nazi nature suddenly, at the beginning, turned it around and said all of this sudden this organization stopped being far right. it is an incredible -- this is what i tracked in my "nation" article, it is incredible whitewashing, which is denying reality with western media across the board suddenly saying , based on nothing, based on propaganda, that this entire group that attracted neo-nazis

from all over the world, that we have reported on, suddenly has stopped being neo-nazis and now they are ok. it is north korean levels of propaganda. to see this happen in western media, it is rather disturbing. amy: i want to bring back in ben makuch. can you talk about the new piece just out today from the intercept? it is about a veteran named craig lang. tell us his story. >> craig lang is a war veteran from iraq and afghanistan and left the military in 2014, allegedly unarmed capitation with his now ex-wife. he went awol on his face and left the military. he says it was an other than honorable discharge. the military want to clarify it.

the doj just says discharge. following that, he worked in north dakota and saw the news in ukraine in 2015 and thought himself, i want to go over there. with the few facebook messages and exchanges with people there, he ended up in donbas, which at the time was a frozen trench warfare against russian-backed separatists and regulars. he was fighting for a group called the right sector, which is ultranationalist organization that is sort of war has been a popular meeting ground for foreign fighters for many years. it attracted lots of neo-nazis and anarchists and essentially just radicals. he was fighting in a unit of mostly foreigners that subsequently got war crimes investigations into them. both by the fbi and foreign authorities. around 2017, he left and came back to the u.s. and it is around that point with someone

else, another u.s. army veteran who also served in the right sector, the doj alleges that he schemed and killed a couple in florida and a gun sell to finance a trip to venezuela where he was going to fight with anti-venezuelan government forces. now, he apparently ended up getting to colombia. he left and went back to ukraine in 2018, 20 19. around that time, the fbi was on to him and he ended up in ukrainian custody. since then, he is been in this back-and-forth and courts. what is really interesting is by 2021, right around the end of the year, he appealed his case to the are in court of human rights. that allowed him to stay in the country but he was on sensually house arrest or keep city limits arrest. of course, we all know by february 2022, the russian

full-scale invasion of the country happened and as that was happening, someone like lang who was fought extensively ended up offering his services. where did he end up? the right sector. he ended up fighting all the way until august 2022 at which point ukrainian authorities finally booted him out of uniform and now he is facing tradition again. i think more than anything, why i found the story so fascinating is that, clearly, this war we are seeing more and more just how much control the ukrainian military has. a lot of things have slipped through the cracks. there's no question the u.s. military has had similar problems in their own prosecution of wars the past 20 years, but i think when the pentagon is offering up billions and billions of dollars to ukraine to defend itself, there needs to be some amount of

scrutiny as to how it's military -- looking at things like asov battalion and right sector being involved in their actual military apparatus, how someone like lang, who did fight for the country twice, could also serve with the military knowing he was facing extradition for pretty grisly double murder that involves a very lengthy set of court documents and allegations against him. juan: i wanted to ask you a similar question, is the situation in ukraine and analogous to what happened during the soviet invasion of afghanistan and became the basis of development of al qaeda or is the fact it is such a conventional war, not a guerrilla war, making it a lot more difficult for these foreign fighters to come in, just a long

and participate? i am wondering your sense of that? >> i have been covering this for many years of exact network pipeline because i knew very early on -- i followed several very ultraviolet neo-nazi groups . there was a lot of ambitions to get these guys to ukraine. i knew of one ex-base member who ended up in ukraine and fought -- not exact wisher which part where which unit he was with -- but the ukrainian military and i think him and another american were taken out of the country the fall of 2024, joining a neo-nazi group and trying to fight for the war. we know there has been secretive pipelines and networks. i know for my own sources and information that still exist. is it to the extent which we got would be? a lot of experts say this is going to turn into this isis-like network that was going to mimic very much so what the islamic state looked like in

2014, 2015, 2016. i would say and i think many studying this site that hasn't -- this say that hasn't happened. josé looking at someone like christopher pulhouse, the leader of the russian volunteer corps, this is a man is now said he wants to join the war in ukraine. i think the ambitions of the far right and seeing how this conflict continues, i have always said the longer continues the more opportunities for this thing to happen will become. i do think the ukrainian military and the authority do not want this to happen and i make they are vigilant -- i think they are vigilant to some extent. i know how porous it can be. the government has a lot on his plate and i think trying to stop american extremists getting

over, while i think they could do a good job of it, there is no doubt that could be a problem. i think this is something that is a wait and see. when it comes to -- you mentioned the mujahideen. we did not know likely house for that problem got in the formation of al qaeda into quite a few years later. the same thing sort of applies to the war in ukraine. as i said, we know those secretive networks exist. i think they still exist. the scale i don't think is on the level of islamic state or the mujahideen, but i do think he's links and international networks are very much around. amy: lev golinkin, if you can talk about -- ben was talking about the man described by the anti-defamation league as a russian neo-nazi. can you talk about the russian neo-nazi elements within wagner? i was shocked to learn wagner

was named by its founder for the composer wagner who was hitler's favorite composer. >> it is interesting because putin's justification, his excuse for this war was what he called to do not suffice ukraine. the pretense he made for his illegal invasion of the war is ukraine has neo-nazis and russia is going to invade and get rid of them. he did this partly to test partly because he did not have any other excuse of partly because he wanted to tap into russia's memory of world war ii and fighting the nazis back then. the irony is denazifying ukraine is done in part by the wagner group that shows

the hypocrisy of russia that is using neo-nazis to supposedly denazify ukraine. they are committing war crimes, committing an illegal invasion of this. it is interesting because most neo-nazis -- you have a lot of them splitting depending on how they view russia. some groups of neo-nazis view russia as the last bastion of the white race. you see a lot of u.s. in the far right. they view russia that way. on the others is people who view russia as not even a white country, is a barbaric asian horde that ukraine and poland and the baltics have to hold back. so depending on where one falls, that is why you kind of have neo-nazis on both sides of the conflict. they have your identical worldviews, it is just it depends on how they see russia

that they go on one side or the other side of the conflict. amy: lev, as a ukrainian-american, are you concerned about what will happen about the empowering of the neo-nazis within ukraine when the war ends? >> i think you don't have to be a ukrainian-american or american to be concerned because these people gain national profile. the message we're sending is that if you are the right type of neo-nazi, we will arm you, we will train you, we will take you to congress, will celebrate you across our media, you will be our hero. example, facebook did the incredible, incredible move where they banned asov pages as a hate group. after the invasion began, facebook announced that they still have asov listed as a hate group, but they're going to allow posts praising asov.

yeah, they are a hate group but hate groups can do good things, too. they're good people on both sides. in this is what this war has created post of eventually, facebook ended up dropping asov from its list of hate groups altogether. there sending a dangerous message. we will not only work with you, we will celebrate you. i think that message will be heard across the world and it is deeply problematic. amy: ben, her final comments from your years of research in ukraine? >> i would agree with lev when this ends, that will be the real question. and someone from the asov movement tell me who is quite senior on the local side say to me in february 2020 two, ukraine is going to be the next texas of europe because there are 70 weapons there. i think when this is all over, that is going to be something that we are all going to have to face as a security issue.

we have far right extremist that might have access to that, that may be quite a problem. amy: we will leave it there. ben makuch national security reporter for the intercept. we willing into your pieces. and lev golinkin, a

hello, and welcome to nhk "newsline." i'm catherine kobayashi in new york. representatives of the world's two biggest economies and two biggest polluters have sat down to address climate change. u.s. envoy john kerry went to china with hopes of persuading his hosts to do more to reduce emissions. he says he wants to unstick what