♪ >> more criminal charges against donald trump, this time, over the capital riot and efforts to overturn the 2020 u.s. presidential election. despite all the indictments, he remains the front runner to win the republican nomination. so what do the new charges mean for his ambitions to return to the white house? and for americans? this is "inside story." ♪ adrian: hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finighan.

donald trump's legal problems are piling up fast with yet another indictment, this time from events after the election he loved to joe biden three years ago. trump remains the hot favorite within the republican party to win the nomination to run again for president next year. but so far, the more charges he faces, the louder his claims of persecution resonate with his support based. what they think will determine the outcome of the election and whether or not trump makes it back into the white house. before we talk to our guests, let's take a closer look at what the latest charges are. he is accused of a conspiracy to defraud the united states. this stems from what prosecutors say is a plot to overturn the election results on false pretenses along with six co-conspirators. trump is also charged with two counts of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, related to interfering with congress, confirming victory for joe biden.

the fourth count is conspiracy against citizen rights. that is interfering with the right of americans to vote and have their vote properly counted. these charges increase the total trump faces to 78. they include illegally keeping classified information in his home, falsifying business records over hush-money payments to the adult film actress stormy daniels, and alleged attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election results in georgia. our white house correspondent has followed trump on the campaign trail and in the white house, too, as well as the twists and turns of his legal problems. she joins us now. will these latest charges help or hinder trump's date for a second term in the white house? guest: in the short-term, these are likely to help donald trump. once again, it does put donald trump's name in the forefront in newscasts all across the united states and around the world. it is injecting oxygen into his

campaign for another term in the white house. so this is very good news for donald trump. it is what he likes. giving him headlines. but in the long term, it could be detrimental, because what this is doing is time-consuming for donald trump. he has yet another legal battle to fight. it is distracting. and it is also sucking money away from the warchest, if you will. these are all battles that he has to fight, and it is a battle that is distracting from the battle he wants to be fighting against joe biden for the white house. ultimately, this is a problem for the man that wants to become president once again. adrian: with all of these distractions, i suppose you could argue that donald trump is unable to offer voters in the u.s. anything new. however, you could say the same for president biden, couldn't you?

how do u.s. voters feel about a biden-trump rematch? guest: in many ways, and you can tell with these candidates what they are offering, it doesn't really matter with the candidate is. the american public has already made their mind up. americans are democrat or republican, regardless of who the candidate is. so the fact that these are the choices is really evidence of that. the reality is that people are voting really for their party more than their candidate. so the fact is, many people don't particularly like donald trump, but they are voting for the republican leader. that is true also of joe biden. joe biden was very popular when he was the vice president under barack obama. but that is not necessarily true

now. in fact, he has about the same popularity of donald trump when he was in office. we have seen it interior he of joe biden where he has been in office. he has made many gaffes. he is not really likable in the same way that he was. he is stumbling more. really, there isn't a lot to offer voters this time around -- the economy is struggling, people don't feel like they are doing better. they are not better than they were four years ago. in fact, when it comes to bidenomics, the thing he is branding as his big salad bowl thing to the american voter, well, that is not -- his big, salable thing to the american voter, well, that is not really flattering to the president.

the fact that we have now had sage downgrading the american economy a from aaa status to aa. that doesn't really mean anything to the ordinary american. the bottom line is that americans are really just voting for their party. they are, once again, just like we had in 2016, the best of the bad options. adrian: our white house correspondent, kimberly halkett. many thanks. ♪ adrian: let's bring in our guests. from washington, d.c., we are joined by adolfo franco, a republican party strategist and former adviser to senator john mccain. from maine, we are joined by adam kamenstein, who's a partner at the law firm adams, duerk & kamenstein, which specializes in government investigations. and also in washington, d.c., rina shah, political strategist, and former senior aide to

republican members of congress. thank you for joining us. many thanks indeed. let's turn to adult full -- adolfo first. trump says today's indictment is, quote, "the latest corrupt chapter to meddle in the 2020 fiction, and part of an american witchhunts." let's break that down for a moment. are the charges against him and the taming of them politically motivated? guest: absolutely right. president trump is absolutely correct. a couple of things to begin, first of all let's talk about the timing. and i am glad you asked about that question. anytime there has been significant news on the biden family corruption syndicate and hunter biden -- significant -- for example, devon adams was a key witness this week regarding

the allegations of the biden family corruption. every time there is one of these incidents, we either have a new indictment or, in some cases, an amended indictment to try to change the news cycle and change away from the corruption allegations away from the headlines in the united states. so, the timing is curious. if you look at the time line, each one of these cases has been around a major biden event. there is another indictment coming in fulton county, and it will be timed, again, when there is another hunter biden or president biden corruption story. that is the first. secondly, everyone of these indictments has been brought by either democrat-elected prosecutors, democrat-appointed prosecutors, or the justice department, which is controlled by president biden and attorney general merrick garland, his

political appointee. special counsel jack smith, to be clear, he is not an independent counsel. he's a special counsel. so therefore his actions, including these, are all cleared by the justice department. this is unprecedented in american history. we have a situation where a former president being prosecuted by his political opponent by using the machinery of the government, and that should be concerning for every single american. adrian: i am itching to get into this, but i just want to put one more point to you, will hurd, who is another potential republican nominee for those who don't know, he said, "trump is unfit for office. his presidential bid as an attempt to stay out of prison and scare him, his supporters, into paying his legal bills. as republicans, he said we need to prioritize offering solutions to difficult issues affecting all americans if we make the upcoming election about trump, we are giving joe biden another four years in the white house."

trump has nothing new to offer voters, does he? guest: he absolutely does. the continuation of his excellent policies between 2016 and 2020. i hope every american will be asked, are you better off today, as president reagan asked, than four years ago? and the answer is no. adrian: aren't americans better off now hunter biden down when trump was an off -- under president biden than when trump was in office? guest: they are absolutely worse off under president biden. anybody who goes to the grocery store or pumps gas or has their real wages reduced in any in any of the analysis that have done , they were better off under president trump. so absolutely president trump is offering a better solution. by the way, will hurd, when he made those comments, he was

roundly booed by republicans when he made those comments. a person who absolutely less than 1% approval in the republican party. this is not representative of the vast majority of the republicans continue to grow and support president trump. adrian: i want to talk about what florida governor ron desantis said about weaponization of the federal government. what do you make of what you just heard? guest: one could argue right now that this trend towards using our agencies, are independent judiciary as sort of fodder for saying we are being victimized -- that is what i hear right now , what republicans cry out about the weaponization of the department of justice, this can be traced back to listening to the talking about hillary clinton. we talk about where we stand with the thrice-indebted former

president. we are in a unique moment in history and we have to understand the conditions we are under right now. we are in the era of grievance politics. we are also in the era of voters voting against someone instead of for someone. we saw that in 2016. we saw people vote for trump as a vote against hillary clinton. also one thing to consider here is how trump is doing his campaign this time around. there has been data released this past week which shows that one in four donors to trump campaign is a retiree. also these small retail -- donations are going towards paying his legal bills. it's only a matter of time before that money runs out and can help his campaign effort and goes towards helping his legal effort. these are the conditions under which this very unique candidacy of the former president is operating under. you have what would be called

establishment republicans. people with long resumes and public service, saying they are better than him. looking for the entryway through which they can make the case that joe biden shouldn't get another chance at the white house. we have a very short time until we start to see independent voters sort of factor in. right now in these polls and in much of these audiences that these gop primary candidates are going to, you are seeing a lot of the most extreme part of the republican party show up, the most sort of fervent supporter. you are seeing people who are going to stick with the standard bearer no matter what. but the vote to capture in order to win the white house, not just the gop primary, is that independently-minded suburban voter in a swing state. a lot of these are women. a lot of these women will have a hard time stomaching many of the decisions happening in republican-led statehouses across the country. abortion is going to factor in,

far bigger of an issue than president biden's son, hunter biden. so we have to talk about these things in a way in which we understand that these are big issues here. adrian: adam, we were discussing whether these charges against trump our, as republicans say, politically motivated. are they, or is this just the wheels of american justice in motion? where electoral cycles and who might be running for what office don't really matter? guest: thank you for having me. i think to suggest that these charges are political is somewhat preposterous. if you have read these indictments, and you are all familiar with the american justice system -- trump famously said when he announced his candidacy back in 2016, that he could shoot somebody on fifth avenue avenue and get away with it. i think that is metaphorically what we are seeing ray out here. as a former rural prosecutor

that has tried more criminal cases than i can count, i can tell you that the indictments here and the evidence alleged is absolutely overwhelming. i wish i had anywhere near this much evidence in the criminal cases that i tried. that is not just my perspective, that is the perspective on these cases from republicans that served in his administration. i think it was attorney general bill barr, a trump appointee who served as his attorney general in the last administration, upon reading the indictment in the other case with the records, the espionage act case, called trump "toast." others have said there is not only a smoking gun here, but a smoking arsenal. an absolutely staggering amount of evidence in both cases, whether it is direct witness

testimony, his own statements being audiorecorded, video surveillance, it goes on and on. the law was not just created, the laws that he is charged with were not just created in the past year or two. these laws have been around for a very long time. and the facts that give rise to these charges were created by donald trump. so you have got existing criminal laws, you have criminal conduct by trump. you put the two together, and that gets you indicated. adrian: how does the american justice system rise above the accusation that it is being politically weaponized? guest: you cut out a little bit, but i think i heard the question. it is incumbent upon the department of justice and the prosecutors to proceed apace without regard to the politics of the day. and that is what they are doing.

you're great to have political partisans make what they want to make about these charges. republicans are going to defend trump. democrats are going to use them against trump. that is just the way of the. what jack smith and his team in the department of justice have to do is proceed without regard, without fear or favor with respect to trump's presidential campaign and just proceed as they would in any other case, and that is what i believe they are doing. adrian: adolfo, what do you make of what you heard, that these charges are absolutely not politically motivated? guest: alright, first of all, independent judiciary, i was talking about prosecutors. they have discretion. they are political individuals. the professor should note that everyone of these has been either a democrat appointee or an elected democrat that is bringing these prosecutions. this indictment is absolutely ridiculous on its face. it is the january 6 report with

some permissions. i will tell you that important omissions that were made. guest: we have an independent judiciary in this country. guest: rina, let me finish. adrian: hang on. guest: you are trying to discredit what i said about an independent judiciary. we have an independent judiciary in this country. it is supporters of trump like you that keep saying that's a democrat, that's a republican. why? guest: did i interrupt you? guest: don't name-checked me. adrian: ok. aadolfo, make your point. ok. guest: i am allowed to finish. guest: he always does this. he always name-checks -- guest: listen. you continue your program

without me. adrian: stop. stop. we can't talk over each other. adolfo -- rina, just make your point quickly and google back to adam. guest: he always brings up people's partisan strikes when he talks about the judiciary. you will see that is a trend with republicans. but in our constitution, we have an independent judiciary in this country. this is a reflection of how americans have lost trust in our institutions. and this is something that happened very rapidly under trump. he didn't start with trump, but it is something he has really benefited from. i think judge eileen cannon in florida, who had trump's other case, she was not as defamed as hard as this next judge that is going to be assigned this third indictment, because this is now an obama-appointed judge.

you will see republicans bring this up over and over. it is really hard for the country because we are, again, we have an independent judiciary in this country. adrian: could trump face a jail time if convicted on any of these charges? you will have to explain to those of us who aren't familiar with the way that the american justice system works, the way that the political system works. can he still campaign, or take office if he is a criminal defendant? is there a precedent here, or are we in uncharted territory? what happened if he is convicted and wins? for he wins and then he is convicted? guest: there is nothing in the constitution that prevents somebody on indictment, somebody on trial, or even somebody convicted from running for and holding office in this country. the only thing that would prevent donald trump from taking office or remaining in office, it would be if he was impeached by the congress. so i think trump's legal strategy here because he knows and his attorneys know that the

evidence is overwhelming, is to be elected president either himself, or pardon himself, excuse me, or hopefully in his mind of a republican that's, you know favorable to him will get elected and pardon him like ford did with nixon. in his defense strategy at this point, it is exclusive when the presidency -- he would be convicted based on evidence in these cases. if he is convicted, he could face prison time. adrian: how would you put a former president in prison? guest: look, no one is above the law. you hear about the statutory

maximum prison terms. those are kind of do not exceed numbers in reality. they are not really how sentences are fashioned. sentences are fashioned by what are called the united states sentencing guidelines. they informed the judge of the appropriate sentence based on a whole host of factors about the case and the defendant's background. and then on top of that, the judges have a a pretty broad degree of discretion in fashioning an appropriate sentence. they can't exceed what the statutory maximum sentences are under the criminal laws that the defendant is convicted of. and in this case, they are consecutive, you add them up, you're talking decades of years. but again, that is not how the defendant sentence is going to be under the guidelines, it will be under the discretion of the judge. but when you look at the crimes he is charged with in the conduct that he is alleged to have committed, if he is

convicted of either of these two cases, he will be sentenced to some term of imprisonment. it would be extraordinary if he wasn't. and it would probably be very appealcable by the government if he was not sentenced. how do you sentence a former president to prison, to answer your question, just like you sentence any other defendant. adrian: you heard us talking to our white house correspondent and she made the point that if you are diehard republicans or dyed-in-the-wool democrats, but it is the moderate and independent voters who can decide the next presidential election. if it is a trump-biden rematch, they aren't faced with much of a choice, are they? what are they going to do? guest: we like to think we have a multiparty system, but truly we have a two-party system and people choose the major party when it comes to who is elected

president and they get behind it. but more and more americans are feeling like these parties don't americans are feeling like these -- feeling like these parties don't represent them. our congressional approval ratings continue to go down year after year. we even feel like our elected representatives sitting in congress don't represent us so. partisan strikes aside, a biden-trump rematch, releasing those one thing for the country is that we are in truly unchartered territory. to have octogenarians serving in the white house when the retirement age from coast-to-coast is anywhere between 61-67, is, i believe, nonsensical. i'm an advocate of term limits. i am also a big believer in following the constitution. i don't believe in abolishing the electoral college. i believe our founding fathers didn't think we would have leaders this old, but it's where we are. it is incumbent upon the parties to do better. i see the rnc doing something unique this time. the rnc chair has introduced a criteria in the form of money or

polls. in certain polls, you have to fool at a certain percentage. she doesn't want vanity candidacies. so i think that is quite unique. on the democratic side, biden is the guy. but who is one heartbeat away from the presidency? that is kamala harris. she still has record high levels of disapproval. there are many americans who are very nervous about a harris presidency. again,, a heartbeat away. so i think what we will see leading up to next year, if biden and trump are on the ballot, you will see americans vote against one or the other. adrian: adam, we thought january 6 was an incredibly dangerous moment for the u.s.. i don't think things have gotten much better today, although they are a little calmer. how dangerous a moment is this for the u.s. democracy? guest: it's a very dangerous moment. we are living in very dangerous

times today. in particular, given the reactionary tribalism on both sides. we see this with trump supporters. the facts don't get through. there is a point of view about what is going on in this country and about this indictment that is just immutable. if trump is convicted, and if they believe, they are not persuaded by the evidence that is presented at trial and it doesn't look like anything would persuade them, if he is convicted, you will have a lot of angry people. and a good chunk of these people have already shown a proclivity towards violence. so i think that following a conviction, we are very likely to see, at least attempts at violence. and if our government does not prepare for it and if the media inflames it, with the internet today and what can be broadcast on that, and the ability to

assemble, all those things, it just creates a very combustible situation. i think it is a frightening time. adrian: we have about a minute left. your thoughts on that? guest: i think we are in an era of political violence. but i think after january 6, 2021, at least our federal-level leaders have have taken it very seriously. we know political extremism is on the rise, but there are ways to counter it. and i think also in the state houses, you see people taking it very seriously. there is so much misinformation. it is going to get ramped up as regards towards the general election day in 2024. but there are some really bright spots for american democracy. a former president, who is now a private citizen by virtue of our guiding document, the constitution, he is being held accountable under the weight of the law. let's see where this goes, but i do think it is an important day.

yesterday was a very historic and important day for democracy because it shows that with justice, accountability has to come hand-in-hand. adrian: my thanks to you both rina shah, ,and adam kamenstein, for being part of the program today. thanks also to adolfo franco who left us halfway through. as always, thank you for watching. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website at aljazeera.com. for further discussion, join us on our facebook page. you will find that at facebook.com/ajinsidestory. and, of course, you can join the conversation on twitter, our handle @ajinsidestory. from me, adrian fineghan and the team here in doha, we will see you again. bye. ♪

boy: skin, sometimes mahogany, other times tan like the sand of an island beach. curls, sometimes wavy and loose, other times rich with kinks and coils, saturated with cantu products and jamaican black castor oil. my community is diverse. our diaspora is like an expansive universe of dreams and joy, pain and grief, and hope for a better future. let me tell you, it's so much more than a stance that i take. there's a bit of my hope in every movement that i make. it's in the silence that i break. my hope is in my art and the music i create. it's in the poems that i write, in the films i direct that i address the people that we need to protect to tell them, have hope. and